By having enough abilities people can pick the ones that fit their style. Intimidate enhancements that can paralyze enemies in fear, cause a group to drop weapons and flee like the fear spell, persuasion that is more like a charm. More social ones would likely fit the players who don't want to appear insanely superhuman though I always think players already are post level 5. You can beat a 20 ton armored fire breathing lizard to death with a mere stick. You are a super human monster. But add in things like stealth where you can hide in plain sight, perception that allows you to see for insane distances, or penetrate illusions, natural or magical concealment like fog.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
As far as out-of-combat utility goes, I think a few abilities that allow martials to engage in the social side of the game would be a good idea. When I think of iconic fighters and barbarians from fantasy like Boromir and Robert Baratheon the main non-combat attribute that comes to mind is their ability to inspire those around them with their heroics and skill at arms. Locking all that behind the Charisma attribute means that we can't have our armor-clad knight giving a heroic speech unless they're specifically a paladin, and that feels oddly limiting.
Barbarians could get an actual feature that lets them add their STR bonus to Intimidation checks so they can be the big, frightening guy in the corner the class fantasy naturally lends itself toward. Fighters could get advantage on persuasion checks in matters pertaining to war and tactics so they can help persuade the king to send reinforcements where it is needed rather than have the bard try to talk his way through a meeting of military generals. The fighter might not necessarily have a silver tongue, but their years of combat experience comes to the surface when they speak on matters they are most knowledgeable on.
Half the problem is that D&D is designed with martials == combat, casters == utility so magic covers pretty much everything you want already leaving no room for a martial-specific utility. IMO the solution must be two-fold : any utility given to martials must be taken away from casters to avoid too much redundancy and giving both of them their niche.
e.g:
Remove the Knock spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Lock breaking : make an attack with a weapon with the Two-Handed or Heavy property against a locked object or door, the lock is broken and you deal damage to the door or items within the object equal to the damage of your weapon attack.
Remove the Shatter spell, and replace it with the martial ability: "Pulverize : you can use an action make one weapon attack with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage against each creature in a 10 ft radius sphere, or against one objects or a portion of a structure within that radius - any attack you make against an object or structure as part of these action deals double damage to it. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
Remove the Water Walk spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Wilderness Expertise : you can spend 1 hour to fashion specialized footwear for up to 6 creatures. While wearing this footwear the creature can cross one of: water, mud, snow, quick sand or lava as if it was normal terrain. This footwear becomes damaged and unusable after 1 hour of use."
Remove the Misty Step spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Pole vault : you can use a quarterstaff, spear, halberd, glaive or pike to extend the distance you can jump vertically or horizonally to 30 ft."
Remove the Silence spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Muffle : as an action you grapple one creature and shove one of your hands into the mouth. That creature cannot speak or cast spells that require verbal components. If the creature breaks free of the grapple it is no longer muffled."
Remove the Locate Creature spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Eagle Eyed : you can spot and identify by sight any creature you can see within 1,000 feet of you, even if they are lightly obscured or within a crowd.", and/or "Expert Tracker: you can identify the foot prints of a specific creature and follow them, provided the foot prints were made no more than 1 hour ago." -- TBH this is basically just a suped up Perception / Survival skill check
Remove the Fear spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Beat armour: While wearing heavy armour or carrying a shield you can use your action to beat it with your weapon to produce a terrifying sound. Each creature of your choice within 60 ft of you must make a Wis save vs DC 8+STR+Prof or be frightened of you as long as they can hear the beating. You can use your action on subsequent turns to maintain the beat. You can use this action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
etc....
TBH I don't really see the necessity of codefying these things since most could just be done using skill checks right now. But I guess it would save DMs from having to think up rulings off the top of their head, or players needing to be creative to think of doing them...
As far as out-of-combat utility goes, I think a few abilities that allow martials to engage in the social side of the game would be a good idea. When I think of iconic fighters and barbarians from fantasy like Boromir and Robert Baratheon the main non-combat attribute that comes to mind is their ability to inspire those around them with their heroics and skill at arms. Locking all that behind the Charisma attribute means that we can't have our armor-clad knight giving a heroic speech unless they're specifically a paladin, and that feels oddly limiting.
Barbarians could get an actual feature that lets them add their STR bonus to Intimidation checks so they can be the big, frightening guy in the corner the class fantasy naturally lends itself toward. Fighters could get advantage on persuasion checks in matters pertaining to war and tactics so they can help persuade the king to send reinforcements where it is needed rather than have the bard try to talk his way through a meeting of military generals. The fighter might not necessarily have a silver tongue, but their years of combat experience comes to the surface when they speak on matters they are most knowledgeable on.
That depends on what kind of fighter you are talking about. A Fighter who spent their life working as a hired thug for a criminal organization before joining the party to hunt monsters wouldn't have any more tactical knowledge than a bard that spent their whole life in brothels listening to gossip. It's why these things are best left to DMs to decide whether a particular character does or does not have the background skills & knowledge to have advantage on a particular check.
(also both Samurai & Battemasters get features to improve their social skills).
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
Well, the battlemaster fighter has an intimidating strike maneuver that causes fear, and berserker barbarian can cause fear as well. It's reasonable that, say, brutally dismembering an enemy and throwing its head towards its comrades while cackling maniacally might be legitimately terrifying. Also, swashbuckler has Panache feature that lets them charm a non-hostile person. I see no reason why psychological warfare should be limited to spellcasters only.
Besides, spells like Heroism do not distort physical reality. This spell merely imbues the target creature with bravery, why wouldn't a rousing speech or a display of will have the same effect? Due to the nature of hit points (not being meat points), it's possible. Inspiration mechanic exists, it might be expanded and modified to be used by martials more often.
As for the physical aspect... That's where the borders of verisimilitude come in play.
I think getting rid of skill lists by class would go a long way toward giving martials more out of combat options. There’s no reason a fighter can’t geek out on history or nature. Just say class a gets x number of skills, class b gets y skills, etc. Really, the changes to background and making custom the default there might actually fix that.
And using alternate ability scores for skill checks has always been an option, but it would be nice to go a step further and make that the default, have players explain what they’re doing, and have the DM assign an ability on a case-by-case basis. But I don’t think they will, I could see that generating a lot of arguments and frustrated players when the DM won’t allow a religion (dex) check. “But my backflips actually spell out Pelor is cool, if viewed from above.”
With a team of fullcasters, you have access to a plethora of spells that can just solve problems, teleport across the world, planeshift, etc.
Buy why do we need everyone in the party to be able to teleport across the world and planeshift? Surely there is no need for a fighter to get a high level ability to magically summon a hunting lodge, when the bard or wizard can summon a magical mansion, or the druid can make the wilderness itself a comfortable shelter, or the cleric can summon a magic temple. Likewise no need for a Barbarian to be able to teleport the party across the world when the druid, bard, wizard, or sorcerer can do that?
Surely, if you're playing in an all-martial party, part of the fun is the fact that you don't have access to all the utility spells so have to do more exploring of the world on foot, or befriend a mages guild, take on a mage-apprentice as a follower, or build yourselves an airship. Even if the party doesn't find that fun, the DM can simply give them: an Amulet of the Planes and a Helm of Teleportation and those crucial utility spells for high level play are covered and your all martial party can do all the world & plane hopping fun of any other party.
It's not that everyone in the party needs to be able to telelort, planeshift, etc. It is that casters are capable of all of this utility without sacrificing anything. Casters are on par if not greater than martials in combat due to the damage potential of spells on top of the the crowd control spells; then casters have all sort of utility spells without giving up any offensive options.
Meanwhile, martials are only able to keep up in combat if they optimize for combat with fests like GWM and SS, which were nerfed in One D&D and we have not gotten any details of any compensation for that nerf if there will even be any. So right now martials are in a bad spot.
It is not about giving martials specifically the ability to teleport or planeshift, but rather to make them on par with casters in all three pillars of play. Right now there is a massive gap in power between casters and martials, so martials need to be brought up to the same power level as casters, and that does not necessary mean giving them the same options as caster, but to give them something on par.
Half the problem is that D&D is designed with martials == combat, casters == utility so magic covers pretty much everything you want already leaving no room for a martial-specific utility. IMO the solution must be two-fold : any utility given to martials must be taken away from casters to avoid too much redundancy and giving both of them their niche.
e.g:
Remove the Knock spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Lock breaking : make an attack with a weapon with the Two-Handed or Heavy property against a locked object or door, the lock is broken and you deal damage to the door or items within the object equal to the damage of your weapon attack.
Remove the Shatter spell, and replace it with the martial ability: "Pulverize : you can use an action make one weapon attack with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage against each creature in a 10 ft radius sphere, or against one objects or a portion of a structure within that radius - any attack you make against an object or structure as part of these action deals double damage to it. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
Remove the Water Walk spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Wilderness Expertise : you can spend 1 hour to fashion specialized footwear for up to 6 creatures. While wearing this footwear the creature can cross one of: water, mud, snow, quick sand or lava as if it was normal terrain. This footwear becomes damaged and unusable after 1 hour of use."
Remove the Misty Step spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Pole vault : you can use a quarterstaff, spear, halberd, glaive or pike to extend the distance you can jump vertically or horizonally to 30 ft."
Remove the Silence spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Muffle : as an action you grapple one creature and shove one of your hands into the mouth. That creature cannot speak or cast spells that require verbal components. If the creature breaks free of the grapple it is no longer muffled."
Remove the Locate Creature spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Eagle Eyed : you can spot and identify by sight any creature you can see within 1,000 feet of you, even if they are lightly obscured or within a crowd.", and/or "Expert Tracker: you can identify the foot prints of a specific creature and follow them, provided the foot prints were made no more than 1 hour ago." -- TBH this is basically just a suped up Perception / Survival skill check
Remove the Fear spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Beat armour: While wearing heavy armour or carrying a shield you can use your action to beat it with your weapon to produce a terrifying sound. Each creature of your choice within 60 ft of you must make a Wis save vs DC 8+STR+Prof or be frightened of you as long as they can hear the beating. You can use your action on subsequent turns to maintain the beat. You can use this action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
etc....
TBH I don't really see the necessity of codefying these things since most could just be done using skill checks right now. But I guess it would save DMs from having to think up rulings off the top of their head, or players needing to be creative to think of doing them...
The issue with this is now you just make casters feel worse to play. A huge fun of the casters is how they are capable of interacting with every pillar of play. The issues with martials is that they have limited interaction with pillars other than combat. I would rather just give martials more out of combat features. Remember that a caster cannot prepare every possible utility spell, they generally have to pick which ones they want to prioritize. If a martial character is able to cover a part of that, the caster can prepare other spells. For example, if you have a rogue with expertise in thieves' tools, you are probably not going to bother with knock, especially in more stealthy situations.
I am a firm believer it is better to buff something up than to nerf something else down.
And using alternate ability scores for skill checks has always been an option, but it would be nice to go a step further and make that the default, have players explain what they’re doing, and have the DM assign an ability on a case-by-case basis. But I don’t think they will, I could see that generating a lot of arguments and frustrated players when the DM won’t allow a religion (dex) check. “But my backflips actually spell out Pelor is cool, if viewed from above.”
They did make it the default. If you look at how different Action types work in the UA, what's going on is that each action has a specific Attribute, and you can use any appropriate skill with that attribute. You encounter a growling wolf pack. What's wrong with the pack? Spot check - roll WIS + Animal. They've got cubs they're guarding. Want to calm them down? Influence check - CHA + Animal.
Any skill can go with any attribute now. The only restriction is that attributes determine what you do. So, no rolling DEX + Religion to know things about undead, but yes to Indiana Jones getting through the Temple of Doom with all the bible puzzles.
I am a firm believer it is better to buff something up than to nerf something else down.
That just creates an unending buff spiral because there will always be some options more powerful than others - it's simply impossible to have both diversity in options and equality in power. The end result of which is that a party is unnecessary because every character can do every thing by themselves (and you have the 4e problem that all characters feel same-y because they can do the same things). Achieving balance requires both nerfing the most powerful options and buffing the weakest ones. Casters are too universally good, thus some of their options must be taken away to make new niches for other classes.
TBH, I would kind of like to see Frightened removed from all spell casting, and leave it as only special supernatural abilities and martial features. Charm spells tend to be more powerful / used anyway.
Here's another swapping caster utility to martials:
Remove Levitate, and replace with "Lift : using two long planks of wood (or similar weapons) you can place each one under your armpits and lift yourself above the ground while leaving your hands free. When you grapple a creature you can use a second grapple to lift them up above your head. A lifted creature has disadvantage on all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws to escape the grapple."
Problem is : nothing about tools are specific to martials though. Buffing tools would buff all characters equally, leaving the martial-caster divide the same as always.
Right, this is all going to the reason for my original question:
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
If a Fighter can use a tool, then everyone can. If a Fighter can intimidate someone by brutally killing an enemy, then a Wizard could do it by disintegrating one. If everyone can do everything, then what's the point in Classes other than flavor?
I'm genuinely asking. I've been thinking about it for days and don't have the answer. I also think that spellcasters absolutely need to be reined in ('nerfed') if the divide is going to be fixed. You can't fix everything with buffs. But people hate nerfs to their favorite classes. Which is why I wonder if backwards compatibility is really a good goal. The whole system could use a bigger change. It's a tough problem to solve.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Right, this is all going to the reason for my original question:
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
If a Fighter can use a tool, then everyone can. If a Fighter can intimidate someone by brutally killing an enemy, then a Wizard could do it by disintegrating one. If everyone can do everything, then what's the point in Classes other than flavor?
I'm genuinely asking. I've been thinking about it for days and don't have the answer. I also think that spellcasters absolutely need to be reined in ('nerfed') if the divide is going to be fixed. You can't fix everything with buffs. But people hate nerfs to their favorite classes. Which is why I wonder if backwards compatibility is really a good goal. The whole system could use a bigger change. It's a tough problem to solve.
push their skills to super human levels. Yes a wizard can intimidate someone, but when a martial does with their abilities allow it go further than what is humanly possible. Still base it around normal skills, perception, stealth, intimidate, charm etc but let it go beyond what humans can normally accomplish with skill and attributes alone. So a wizard sneaking and a martial sneaking at some point is so far divorced from each other you no longer worry that anyone can do it.
I am a firm believer it is better to buff something up than to nerf something else down.
That just creates an unending buff spiral because there will always be some options more powerful than others - it's simply impossible to have both diversity in options and equality in power. The end result of which is that a party is unnecessary because every character can do every thing by themselves (and you have the 4e problem that all characters feel same-y because they can do the same things). Achieving balance requires both nerfing the most powerful options and buffing the weakest ones. Casters are too universally good, thus some of their options must be taken away to make new niches for other classes.
TBH, I would kind of like to see Frightened removed from all spell casting, and leave it as only special supernatural abilities and martial features. Charm spells tend to be more powerful / used anyway.
It doesn't create a buff spiral. It will only create spiral if you buff the other side in response to overbuffing the original side. However, if you keep the caster side static and simply adjust the martial side to be as close as possible in overall power level, you end up avoiding a buff spiral. You do not need to nerf the strongest options while buffing the strongest option. If anything, that can lead to the power disparity swapping. I have seen plenty of times when other games (not necessary TRPG's but games in general) just buffed the weaker option to be up to spec. Sure if you overbuff martials, you would then have to nerf the buff, but it is still considered a buff to where martials started, thus it would still be considered buffing martials to be on par with casters.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
If we are going to compare what a caster can do, especially a wizard, and a warrior, at the level of utility outside of combat; the warrior will always lose out. And it is obvious that it has to be so.
Now, and I know this opinion is going to be unpopular, I think the main problem here is not with the warrior. It's in the casters (and especially in the wizard). And it is that in 5e the casters have a lot, a lot of magic. And magic, as it should be, is very powerful. So the warrior does not have to be the best in combat, since magic will always be more powerful. And outside of combat the comparison is absurd.
Additionally, casters have lost many of the limitations they traditionally had, such as wearing armor. And, added to this, the casters, especially the wizard and the sorcerer, have a lot of hit points. So on the one hand you have a character that easily solves a fight with a couple of spells. That from a certain level he does not care about the difference in HP, since not being on the front line he has more than enough. That also, although it is unnecessary, can have a decent AC. And, of course, outside of combat there is no point of comparison. And on the other hand, you have a character that is going to be receiving the aggro and that, on his turn, what he is going to do is hit 3 or 4 times and wait for the next turn.
That's why IMO warriors have to be given more options in combat. Make them really stand out at that, and a player can enjoy making decisions on a caster-like level. And now, the unpopular thing is that I think the casters have to be nerfed. And I'm a caster player mainly, especially wizards. Basically because they have more things to do than hit. But I think they are stronger than they should be and depending on the spells and subclass you choose, they are better warriors than any warrior.
And I highlight it because it is the main idea that I want to convey. In my opinion wizards (and casters by extension) have a lot of HP, have no equipment limitations, and have enough spell slots to spend at will.
Right, this is all going to the reason for my original question:
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
Somewhat keeps up with spellcasters, but
Isn't magic
Doesn't feel like magic
And isn't easily done with a skill or feat that anyone should be able to get?
If a Fighter can use a tool, then everyone can. If a Fighter can intimidate someone by brutally killing an enemy, then a Wizard could do it by disintegrating one. If everyone can do everything, then what's the point in Classes other than flavor?
I'm genuinely asking. I've been thinking about it for days and don't have the answer. I also think that spellcasters absolutely need to be reined in ('nerfed') if the divide is going to be fixed. You can't fix everything with buffs. But people hate nerfs to their favorite classes. Which is why I wonder if backwards compatibility is really a good goal. The whole system could use a bigger change. It's a tough problem to solve.
push their skills to super human levels. Yes a wizard can intimidate someone, but when a martial does with their abilities allow it go further than what is humanly possible. Still base it around normal skills, perception, stealth, intimidate, charm etc but let it go beyond what humans can normally accomplish with skill and attributes alone. So a wizard sneaking and a martial sneaking at some point is so far divorced from each other you no longer worry that anyone can do it.
I'm still not sure that will fly with a lot of people. There is something about the unique DnD genre that implies that all characters are normal people that can access extraordinary power. But they still have to feasibly grow into it because of the level system, or be gifted it from another source. I don't know, it's hard to explain.
In every class in the game, there are mundane powers and supernatural powers. Yes, ever person can do things like intimidate someone, influence them, or inspire them. That's something we can imagine real people doing. Even if it is given a fancy mechanic like inspiration. But as soon as a character wants to leap 100 feet or lift a wagon over their head, it relies on something a little supernatural. It's going to be a trait of your species, a magic spell, or a gift from a God.
That's not saying it always has to be that way. Just that it's how the game always worked. I think a lot of people expect what we are used to.
If I understand what you're saying, then Expertise is almost like that. It gives a character what might be considered superhuman skill at something. But it's still limited by the rules of the mundane world. A high Athletics roll only lets you jump a little further. A high Stealth roll can still be beat by a high enough Perception roll. Or completely outclassed by an Invisibility spell. As soon as a class gets an ability to actually turn invisible in shadows, it's magical in nature.
I don't know. I actually like the Champion subclass for all its flaws. That's how I imagine a mundane Fighter of great skill with no super powers. I could see turning the Champion into the Champion of 'something bigger than them', like a Champion of the gods, or a civilisation. A Hercules type person. But that starts to get into mythological proportions. And their power starts to get justified by divine influence. You could play a Rune Knight or a Paladin if you want magic in your combat. And many people just want to play a farm kid that picked up a sword and just got really good with it. I guess the question that is plaguing me is really - Is there no room for a normal martial hero to grow on par with the normal kid who got a spellbook, without resorting to a different kind of magic?
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
A lot of it might fall under conditions, but intimidates that can paralyze people, freeze them in their tracks so to speak. For stealth hiding in plain sight. Perception, seeing through illusions, or accurate targeting of enemies while blinded.
This is just giving it minutes of thought so I doubt they will be bangers. And some skill swill have more or none as again I'm only taking minutes.
Athletics, super human jumping, grappling things more than one size larger than you, improved conditions while grappling, reduced penalties while grappling, the old bend bars lift gates of earlier editions on steroids, smashing through even magically locked doors.
Acrobatics falling from greater heights, avoiding attacks of opportunity, i don't know what else, running on water maybe.
sleight of hand, steal equipped items,
stealth hide in plain sight, at least reduce requirements to sneak, don't automatically reveal location once you attack instead put some penalty to reduce the odds you are hidden.
Arcana use items you normally couldn't based on class group
History, i got nothing.
Investigation, movie sherlock holmes level stuff.
Nature some benefit with poisons
religion, some kind of protection vs undead/demons devils
Animal handling ability to calm animal intelligence creatures of all kinds.
Insight, again nothing
Medicine, give a recently dead person another death save to pull through.
Perception, see through things that obscure vision or at least target through it without penalty.
Survival ability to survive and not take damage in exotic conditions like elemental plane of fire.
Deception suggestion level effects.
Intimidate paralyze, fear effects.
Performance mass charm effects.
Persuasion, dominate, charm effects.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
By having enough abilities people can pick the ones that fit their style. Intimidate enhancements that can paralyze enemies in fear, cause a group to drop weapons and flee like the fear spell, persuasion that is more like a charm. More social ones would likely fit the players who don't want to appear insanely superhuman though I always think players already are post level 5. You can beat a 20 ton armored fire breathing lizard to death with a mere stick. You are a super human monster. But add in things like stealth where you can hide in plain sight, perception that allows you to see for insane distances, or penetrate illusions, natural or magical concealment like fog.
It's possible... but at what point are you just back at 4e? Where everyone has the same powers with different names?
If a Fighter has a number of dice they can use for special powers. And those powers cause fear, or charm, or let them shatter walls. Then they start to look a lot like spellcasters with spell slots. And their mundane powers being feeling magical. Or magic starts feeling mundane.
Again, I'm just wondering these thing out loud. I've thought about it a lot and don't have answers. So I wonder if anyone else can see a way to maintain some identity between mundane power and magic power, but also give them similar utility.
As far as out-of-combat utility goes, I think a few abilities that allow martials to engage in the social side of the game would be a good idea. When I think of iconic fighters and barbarians from fantasy like Boromir and Robert Baratheon the main non-combat attribute that comes to mind is their ability to inspire those around them with their heroics and skill at arms. Locking all that behind the Charisma attribute means that we can't have our armor-clad knight giving a heroic speech unless they're specifically a paladin, and that feels oddly limiting.
Barbarians could get an actual feature that lets them add their STR bonus to Intimidation checks so they can be the big, frightening guy in the corner the class fantasy naturally lends itself toward. Fighters could get advantage on persuasion checks in matters pertaining to war and tactics so they can help persuade the king to send reinforcements where it is needed rather than have the bard try to talk his way through a meeting of military generals. The fighter might not necessarily have a silver tongue, but their years of combat experience comes to the surface when they speak on matters they are most knowledgeable on.
Half the problem is that D&D is designed with martials == combat, casters == utility so magic covers pretty much everything you want already leaving no room for a martial-specific utility. IMO the solution must be two-fold : any utility given to martials must be taken away from casters to avoid too much redundancy and giving both of them their niche.
e.g:
Remove the Knock spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Lock breaking : make an attack with a weapon with the Two-Handed or Heavy property against a locked object or door, the lock is broken and you deal damage to the door or items within the object equal to the damage of your weapon attack.
Remove the Shatter spell, and replace it with the martial ability: "Pulverize : you can use an action make one weapon attack with a weapon that deals bludgeoning damage against each creature in a 10 ft radius sphere, or against one objects or a portion of a structure within that radius - any attack you make against an object or structure as part of these action deals double damage to it. You can use this ability a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
Remove the Water Walk spell, and replace it with a martial ability: "Wilderness Expertise : you can spend 1 hour to fashion specialized footwear for up to 6 creatures. While wearing this footwear the creature can cross one of: water, mud, snow, quick sand or lava as if it was normal terrain. This footwear becomes damaged and unusable after 1 hour of use."
Remove the Misty Step spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Pole vault : you can use a quarterstaff, spear, halberd, glaive or pike to extend the distance you can jump vertically or horizonally to 30 ft."
Remove the Silence spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Muffle : as an action you grapple one creature and shove one of your hands into the mouth. That creature cannot speak or cast spells that require verbal components. If the creature breaks free of the grapple it is no longer muffled."
Remove the Locate Creature spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Eagle Eyed : you can spot and identify by sight any creature you can see within 1,000 feet of you, even if they are lightly obscured or within a crowd.", and/or "Expert Tracker: you can identify the foot prints of a specific creature and follow them, provided the foot prints were made no more than 1 hour ago." -- TBH this is basically just a suped up Perception / Survival skill check
Remove the Fear spell and replace it with a martial ability: "Beat armour: While wearing heavy armour or carrying a shield you can use your action to beat it with your weapon to produce a terrifying sound. Each creature of your choice within 60 ft of you must make a Wis save vs DC 8+STR+Prof or be frightened of you as long as they can hear the beating. You can use your action on subsequent turns to maintain the beat. You can use this action a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus regaining all uses when you finish a long rest."
etc....
TBH I don't really see the necessity of codefying these things since most could just be done using skill checks right now. But I guess it would save DMs from having to think up rulings off the top of their head, or players needing to be creative to think of doing them...
That depends on what kind of fighter you are talking about. A Fighter who spent their life working as a hired thug for a criminal organization before joining the party to hunt monsters wouldn't have any more tactical knowledge than a bard that spent their whole life in brothels listening to gossip. It's why these things are best left to DMs to decide whether a particular character does or does not have the background skills & knowledge to have advantage on a particular check.
(also both Samurai & Battemasters get features to improve their social skills).
Well, the battlemaster fighter has an intimidating strike maneuver that causes fear, and berserker barbarian can cause fear as well. It's reasonable that, say, brutally dismembering an enemy and throwing its head towards its comrades while cackling maniacally might be legitimately terrifying. Also, swashbuckler has Panache feature that lets them charm a non-hostile person. I see no reason why psychological warfare should be limited to spellcasters only.
Besides, spells like Heroism do not distort physical reality. This spell merely imbues the target creature with bravery, why wouldn't a rousing speech or a display of will have the same effect? Due to the nature of hit points (not being meat points), it's possible. Inspiration mechanic exists, it might be expanded and modified to be used by martials more often.
As for the physical aspect... That's where the borders of verisimilitude come in play.
I think getting rid of skill lists by class would go a long way toward giving martials more out of combat options. There’s no reason a fighter can’t geek out on history or nature. Just say class a gets x number of skills, class b gets y skills, etc.
Really, the changes to background and making custom the default there might actually fix that.
And using alternate ability scores for skill checks has always been an option, but it would be nice to go a step further and make that the default, have players explain what they’re doing, and have the DM assign an ability on a case-by-case basis. But I don’t think they will, I could see that generating a lot of arguments and frustrated players when the DM won’t allow a religion (dex) check. “But my backflips actually spell out Pelor is cool, if viewed from above.”
It's not that everyone in the party needs to be able to telelort, planeshift, etc. It is that casters are capable of all of this utility without sacrificing anything. Casters are on par if not greater than martials in combat due to the damage potential of spells on top of the the crowd control spells; then casters have all sort of utility spells without giving up any offensive options.
Meanwhile, martials are only able to keep up in combat if they optimize for combat with fests like GWM and SS, which were nerfed in One D&D and we have not gotten any details of any compensation for that nerf if there will even be any. So right now martials are in a bad spot.
It is not about giving martials specifically the ability to teleport or planeshift, but rather to make them on par with casters in all three pillars of play. Right now there is a massive gap in power between casters and martials, so martials need to be brought up to the same power level as casters, and that does not necessary mean giving them the same options as caster, but to give them something on par.
The issue with this is now you just make casters feel worse to play. A huge fun of the casters is how they are capable of interacting with every pillar of play. The issues with martials is that they have limited interaction with pillars other than combat. I would rather just give martials more out of combat features. Remember that a caster cannot prepare every possible utility spell, they generally have to pick which ones they want to prioritize. If a martial character is able to cover a part of that, the caster can prepare other spells. For example, if you have a rogue with expertise in thieves' tools, you are probably not going to bother with knock, especially in more stealthy situations.
I am a firm believer it is better to buff something up than to nerf something else down.
They did make it the default. If you look at how different Action types work in the UA, what's going on is that each action has a specific Attribute, and you can use any appropriate skill with that attribute. You encounter a growling wolf pack. What's wrong with the pack? Spot check - roll WIS + Animal. They've got cubs they're guarding. Want to calm them down? Influence check - CHA + Animal.
Any skill can go with any attribute now. The only restriction is that attributes determine what you do. So, no rolling DEX + Religion to know things about undead, but yes to Indiana Jones getting through the Temple of Doom with all the bible puzzles.
That just creates an unending buff spiral because there will always be some options more powerful than others - it's simply impossible to have both diversity in options and equality in power. The end result of which is that a party is unnecessary because every character can do every thing by themselves (and you have the 4e problem that all characters feel same-y because they can do the same things). Achieving balance requires both nerfing the most powerful options and buffing the weakest ones. Casters are too universally good, thus some of their options must be taken away to make new niches for other classes.
TBH, I would kind of like to see Frightened removed from all spell casting, and leave it as only special supernatural abilities and martial features. Charm spells tend to be more powerful / used anyway.
Here's another swapping caster utility to martials:
Remove Levitate, and replace with "Lift : using two long planks of wood (or similar weapons) you can place each one under your armpits and lift yourself above the ground while leaving your hands free. When you grapple a creature you can use a second grapple to lift them up above your head. A lifted creature has disadvantage on all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws to escape the grapple."
Problem is : nothing about tools are specific to martials though. Buffing tools would buff all characters equally, leaving the martial-caster divide the same as always.
Right, this is all going to the reason for my original question:
What are some examples of out of combat utility that a Fighter could have that -
If a Fighter can use a tool, then everyone can. If a Fighter can intimidate someone by brutally killing an enemy, then a Wizard could do it by disintegrating one. If everyone can do everything, then what's the point in Classes other than flavor?
I'm genuinely asking. I've been thinking about it for days and don't have the answer. I also think that spellcasters absolutely need to be reined in ('nerfed') if the divide is going to be fixed. You can't fix everything with buffs. But people hate nerfs to their favorite classes. Which is why I wonder if backwards compatibility is really a good goal. The whole system could use a bigger change. It's a tough problem to solve.
For me the problem with 4e wasn't everyone having powers its that they all were designed in such a similar format they felt too much alike. I hit for 1 weapon& minor perk aty will I hit at 2 weapon and slightly larger perk for a encounter etc.
If magic is designed totally differently than martial abilities even if there is crossover in effects I think it can work.
push their skills to super human levels. Yes a wizard can intimidate someone, but when a martial does with their abilities allow it go further than what is humanly possible. Still base it around normal skills, perception, stealth, intimidate, charm etc but let it go beyond what humans can normally accomplish with skill and attributes alone. So a wizard sneaking and a martial sneaking at some point is so far divorced from each other you no longer worry that anyone can do it.
It doesn't create a buff spiral. It will only create spiral if you buff the other side in response to overbuffing the original side. However, if you keep the caster side static and simply adjust the martial side to be as close as possible in overall power level, you end up avoiding a buff spiral. You do not need to nerf the strongest options while buffing the strongest option. If anything, that can lead to the power disparity swapping. I have seen plenty of times when other games (not necessary TRPG's but games in general) just buffed the weaker option to be up to spec. Sure if you overbuff martials, you would then have to nerf the buff, but it is still considered a buff to where martials started, thus it would still be considered buffing martials to be on par with casters.
Could you give an example of a martial ability that is "designed totally differently" but has cross over effects? As far as I can see we are fundamentally constrained by the d20 Test system. There are only really 3 "totally different" mechanics in the game: attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.
Every class can use ability checks more or less the same - Rogues, Rangers and Bards are a bit better at them than others but they aren't so radically different that it defines their play style.
Martials (and warlocks) mainly focus on attack roll abilities that deal damage, whereas spellcasters mainly focus on saving throws that impose conditions.
It is already possible to make a spellcaster that does saving throws that deal damage.
So really the only thing left for martials to feel unique is attack rolls that impose conditions (and TBH lots of the newer spells give this functionality to spellcasters already too so even that isn't "totally different" from spells...).
The more I think about it the more I agree with Stegodorkus, because of the comprehensiveness of spells and the move towards all classes being preparation casters there is really no "gap" for martial to fill unless we significantly pare down spell lists.
If we are going to compare what a caster can do, especially a wizard, and a warrior, at the level of utility outside of combat; the warrior will always lose out. And it is obvious that it has to be so.
Now, and I know this opinion is going to be unpopular, I think the main problem here is not with the warrior. It's in the casters (and especially in the wizard). And it is that in 5e the casters have a lot, a lot of magic. And magic, as it should be, is very powerful. So the warrior does not have to be the best in combat, since magic will always be more powerful. And outside of combat the comparison is absurd.
Additionally, casters have lost many of the limitations they traditionally had, such as wearing armor. And, added to this, the casters, especially the wizard and the sorcerer, have a lot of hit points. So on the one hand you have a character that easily solves a fight with a couple of spells. That from a certain level he does not care about the difference in HP, since not being on the front line he has more than enough. That also, although it is unnecessary, can have a decent AC. And, of course, outside of combat there is no point of comparison. And on the other hand, you have a character that is going to be receiving the aggro and that, on his turn, what he is going to do is hit 3 or 4 times and wait for the next turn.
That's why IMO warriors have to be given more options in combat. Make them really stand out at that, and a player can enjoy making decisions on a caster-like level. And now, the unpopular thing is that I think the casters have to be nerfed. And I'm a caster player mainly, especially wizards. Basically because they have more things to do than hit. But I think they are stronger than they should be and depending on the spells and subclass you choose, they are better warriors than any warrior.
And I highlight it because it is the main idea that I want to convey. In my opinion wizards (and casters by extension) have a lot of HP, have no equipment limitations, and have enough spell slots to spend at will.
I'm still not sure that will fly with a lot of people. There is something about the unique DnD genre that implies that all characters are normal people that can access extraordinary power. But they still have to feasibly grow into it because of the level system, or be gifted it from another source. I don't know, it's hard to explain.
In every class in the game, there are mundane powers and supernatural powers. Yes, ever person can do things like intimidate someone, influence them, or inspire them. That's something we can imagine real people doing. Even if it is given a fancy mechanic like inspiration. But as soon as a character wants to leap 100 feet or lift a wagon over their head, it relies on something a little supernatural. It's going to be a trait of your species, a magic spell, or a gift from a God.
That's not saying it always has to be that way. Just that it's how the game always worked. I think a lot of people expect what we are used to.
If I understand what you're saying, then Expertise is almost like that. It gives a character what might be considered superhuman skill at something. But it's still limited by the rules of the mundane world. A high Athletics roll only lets you jump a little further. A high Stealth roll can still be beat by a high enough Perception roll. Or completely outclassed by an Invisibility spell. As soon as a class gets an ability to actually turn invisible in shadows, it's magical in nature.
I don't know. I actually like the Champion subclass for all its flaws. That's how I imagine a mundane Fighter of great skill with no super powers. I could see turning the Champion into the Champion of 'something bigger than them', like a Champion of the gods, or a civilisation. A Hercules type person. But that starts to get into mythological proportions. And their power starts to get justified by divine influence. You could play a Rune Knight or a Paladin if you want magic in your combat. And many people just want to play a farm kid that picked up a sword and just got really good with it. I guess the question that is plaguing me is really - Is there no room for a normal martial hero to grow on par with the normal kid who got a spellbook, without resorting to a different kind of magic?
A lot of it might fall under conditions, but intimidates that can paralyze people, freeze them in their tracks so to speak. For stealth hiding in plain sight. Perception, seeing through illusions, or accurate targeting of enemies while blinded.
This is just giving it minutes of thought so I doubt they will be bangers. And some skill swill have more or none as again I'm only taking minutes.
Athletics, super human jumping, grappling things more than one size larger than you, improved conditions while grappling, reduced penalties while grappling, the old bend bars lift gates of earlier editions on steroids, smashing through even magically locked doors.
Acrobatics falling from greater heights, avoiding attacks of opportunity, i don't know what else, running on water maybe.
sleight of hand, steal equipped items,
stealth hide in plain sight, at least reduce requirements to sneak, don't automatically reveal location once you attack instead put some penalty to reduce the odds you are hidden.
Arcana use items you normally couldn't based on class group
History, i got nothing.
Investigation, movie sherlock holmes level stuff.
Nature some benefit with poisons
religion, some kind of protection vs undead/demons devils
Animal handling ability to calm animal intelligence creatures of all kinds.
Insight, again nothing
Medicine, give a recently dead person another death save to pull through.
Perception, see through things that obscure vision or at least target through it without penalty.
Survival ability to survive and not take damage in exotic conditions like elemental plane of fire.
Deception suggestion level effects.
Intimidate paralyze, fear effects.
Performance mass charm effects.
Persuasion, dominate, charm effects.