It's not so much the total number of spells prepared that looks sad. It's only having four level 1 spells, but 6 at each level after through 5. Level 1 spells are really useful and help establish a character. I wish we could get them back. They were only lost because domains moved to level 3 and I guess they thought it looked weird to pick up both 1st and 2nd level domain spells at once?
Is it any weirder than the fighter all of a sudden picking up two cantrips and a 1st level spell via Magic Initiate Feat? I don't see adding in the 1st level domain spells back in at level 3 all that hard. Your Deity (or whatever) grants you these spells, at 3rd level. Why can't 1st level spells be part of it?
I do not agree with the way of preparing spells for DnD one, I would accept it if it is not just a suggestion, so that new players can be easily guided, but to make it more rigid than if we have to prepare a certain number of spells of each level according to the levels to our spaces, I don't see it as a good idea.
I like it (because it nerfs casters in an intuitive and easy to play way, they can't frontload a bunch of their highest-level nukes anymore) with one caveat - you should be able to prepare more lower level spells in place of higher level ones. That would maintain the spirit of the nerf, while also giving you more options in cases where you get more mileage out of lower spell levels than higher ones.
For example - a 13th level wizard can't run around with Forcecage, Teleport, Simulacrum and Crown of Stars all prepped just in case anymore, they need to choose one. And that will likely mean coordinating with another 13th level caster in the party to try and cover what they can't. It means you are more likely to want a wizard and a sorcerer in the same party for instance. I see that as a design win.
The major problem here is the "feels bad" aspect, and the further narrowing of spells actually seeing use in the game. A 13th level wizard gets only one 7th level spell per day. If they never get to actually use that spell slot because they don't have the right spell prepared (e.g. they prep Teleport but the party doesn't need it, or they prep Forcecage and all the enemies can teleport) that feels bad. Likewise, if you never cast half of the spells you have prepared because you use all your 1st level slots for Shield and all your 2nd level slots for Mirror Image, then that feels bad. You'll end up learning to only prepare spells that have the most universal application even more so that caster do so now.
I 100% agree that casters need a nerf, but I would rather see that happen by having spells themselves get nerfed, than simply making it so that they don't use half their top level spellslots because they don't have the right spell prepared. If you want casters to not actually use their spellslots b/c having them use their spellslots is OP / unfun, then decrease the number of spell slots they have.
The major problem here is the "feels bad" aspect, and the further narrowing of spells actually seeing use in the game. A 13th level wizard gets only one 7th level spell per day. If they never get to actually use that spell slot because they don't have the right spell prepared (e.g. they prep Teleport but the party doesn't need it, or they prep Forcecage and all the enemies can teleport) that feels bad.
But... you will always get to use it. Upcasting lower spells to those slots is still a thing*, and now you're guaranteed to have some prepared.
*Unless you're a Warlock anyway, though I suspect they will be changing too
Likewise, if you never cast half of the spells you have prepared because you use all your 1st level slots for Shield and all your 2nd level slots for Mirror Image, then that feels bad. You'll end up learning to only prepare spells that have the most universal application even more so that caster do so now.
This can happen now. In fact, under current rules, you might never have mirror image prepared in the first place because you've spent all your preparations on higher level spells to maximize your chances of having the one you need.
I'd argue that prepping a bunch of spells of X level only to run out of X level slots, and then having fewer spells prepped of the levels below that one is what feels bad. (That and asking new players to do a bunch of extra math instead of just looking at the table already in front of them.)
I 100% agree that casters need a nerf, but I would rather see that happen by having spells themselves get nerfed, than simply making it so that they don't use half their top level spellslots because they don't have the right spell prepared. If you want casters to not actually use their spellslots b/c having them use their spellslots is OP / unfun, then decrease the number of spell slots they have.
Oh don't worry, I want some of the spells nerfed too. The current version of simulacrum needs to die in a fire for example, and I hate the fact that Force-anything is completely impenetrable even if you're Gilgamesh dual-wielding Excalibur and Mjolnir.
I like it (because it nerfs casters in an intuitive and easy to play way, they can't frontload a bunch of their highest-level nukes anymore) with one caveat - you should be able to prepare more lower level spells in place of higher level ones. That would maintain the spirit of the nerf, while also giving you more options in cases where you get more mileage out of lower spell levels than higher ones.
For example - a 13th level wizard can't run around with Forcecage, Teleport, Simulacrum and Crown of Stars all prepped just in case anymore, they need to choose one. And that will likely mean coordinating with another 13th level caster in the party to try and cover what they can't. It means you are more likely to want a wizard and a sorcerer in the same party for instance. I see that as a design win.
I hate it. I don't really think it's that much of a nerf, but what it does do is remove a benefit of increasing your spellcasting ability, which makes ability scores more boring.
You already have plenty of incentive to do that anyway between DCs and spell attacks. And now, casters who need neither thanks to careful spell selection don't have their layout crippled.
Sorry your argument is, this will nerf casters and therefore require more people to play casters to make up for the nerfing? How does that help martials if you need more players to be casters to make up for what one caster could do but is now not allowed to? Its a poor design that prevents creative spells in place for consistent and dependable spells. So you're going to have people more than every saying "Ugh if only I had that spell prepared but I couldn't because I could only choose one". The way to nerf something isn't taking creative choices away, its powering down the spells. Thats at least my opinion.
As many have pointed out, number of spells slots = number of spells you can prepare, in any order. Forcing higher levels to keep 4 1st level spells or 3 2nd level spells they'll never use is just pointless. Thankfully, my DM has already stated if One D&D goes forward with this he'd definitely Homebrew to allow spell slots known equal to spells you can prepare. Hopefully other DM's agree.
I like it (because it nerfs casters in an intuitive and easy to play way, they can't frontload a bunch of their highest-level nukes anymore) with one caveat - you should be able to prepare more lower level spells in place of higher level ones. That would maintain the spirit of the nerf, while also giving you more options in cases where you get more mileage out of lower spell levels than higher ones.
For example - a 13th level wizard can't run around with Forcecage, Teleport, Simulacrum and Crown of Stars all prepped just in case anymore, they need to choose one. And that will likely mean coordinating with another 13th level caster in the party to try and cover what they can't. It means you are more likely to want a wizard and a sorcerer in the same party for instance. I see that as a design win.
I hate it. I don't really think it's that much of a nerf, but what it does do is remove a benefit of increasing your spellcasting ability, which makes ability scores more boring.
You already have plenty of incentive to do that anyway between DCs and spell attacks. And now, casters who need neither thanks to careful spell selection don't have their layout crippled.
Sorry your argument is, this will nerf casters and therefore require more people to play casters to make up for the nerfing? How does that help martials if you need more players to be casters to make up for what one caster could do but is now not allowed to? Its a poor design that prevents creative spells in place for consistent and dependable spells. So you're going to have people more than every saying "Ugh if only I had that spell prepared but I couldn't because I could only choose one". The way to nerf something isn't taking creative choices away, its powering down the spells. Thats at least my opinion.
As many have pointed out, number of spells slots = number of spells you can prepare, in any order. Forcing higher levels to keep 4 1st level spells or 3 2nd level spells they'll never use is just pointless. Thankfully, my DM has already stated if One D&D goes forward with this he'd definitely Homebrew to allow spell slots known equal to spells you can prepare. Hopefully other DM's agree.
You don't have to "make up for the nerfing." Your wizard will still be OP if you can't prepare half a dozen 7th-level spells, I promise.
Likewise, if you never cast half of the spells you have prepared because you use all your 1st level slots for Shield and all your 2nd level slots for Mirror Image, then that feels bad. You'll end up learning to only prepare spells that have the most universal application even more so that caster do so now.
This can happen now. In fact, under current rules, you might never have mirror image prepared in the first place because you've spent all your preparations on higher level spells to maximize your chances of having the one you need.
I'd argue that prepping a bunch of spells of X level only to run out of X level slots, and then having fewer spells prepped of the levels below that one is what feels bad. (That and asking new players to do a bunch of extra math instead of just looking at the table already in front of them.)
If people felt that having only a few low left spells "feels bad" after they cast their one big spell slot, then people wouldn't prep a bunch of high level spells rather than low level ones and there would be no need to change the rules and changing the rules wouldn't be considered a nerf. The fact that this change is seen as a nerf, and WotC felt the need to change the rules indicates that it doesn't "feel bad" to have only a couple low level spells prepared and that many (arguably most) players would much rather cast a 7th level spell than an upcast 4th level one even if that means they only have 2x 4th level spells to choose from. Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast. It's my major issue with Pathfinder 2e casters as well, it sucks to have a perfectly good spellslot sitting around while your party is dying all around you but you can't use that spell slot to save them because of arbitrary preparation restrictions.
Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast.
Yes, damaging cantrips will be better than 1st and 2nd level damaging spells but... like... don't prepare those? Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Silvery Barbs, oh look you're at 4 already. Rope Trick, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, that's three.
Likewise, if you never cast half of the spells you have prepared because you use all your 1st level slots for Shield and all your 2nd level slots for Mirror Image, then that feels bad. You'll end up learning to only prepare spells that have the most universal application even more so that caster do so now.
This can happen now. In fact, under current rules, you might never have mirror image prepared in the first place because you've spent all your preparations on higher level spells to maximize your chances of having the one you need.
I'd argue that prepping a bunch of spells of X level only to run out of X level slots, and then having fewer spells prepped of the levels below that one is what feels bad. (That and asking new players to do a bunch of extra math instead of just looking at the table already in front of them.)
If people felt that having only a few low left spells "feels bad" after they cast their one big spell slot, then people wouldn't prep a bunch of high level spells rather than low level ones and there would be no need to change the rules and changing the rules wouldn't be considered a nerf. The fact that this change is seen as a nerf, and WotC felt the need to change the rules indicates that it doesn't "feel bad" to have only a couple low level spells prepared and that many (arguably most) players would much rather cast a 7th level spell than an upcast 4th level one even if that means they only have 2x 4th level spells to choose from. Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast. It's my major issue with Pathfinder 2e casters as well, it sucks to have a perfectly good spellslot sitting around while your party is dying all around you but you can't use that spell slot to save them because of arbitrary preparation restrictions.
I'm reading you loud and clear; we need to nerf cantrips too.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why. In my D&D groups I'm usually the only pure caster with everyone else either multiclassing or using classes that mix the two (like ranger) and it's well known that 'human fighter' is, by far, the most common race/class combination despite being a martial. While I have felt powerful as the typically-only-pure-caster not only does that usually wait till lower levels but happens when I am engaging in party support as opposed to being some OMGWTFOPed caster. While I'm willing to accept that this is a personal failing on my own part, I am curious as to how accurate this representation actually is as opposed to people being worried about outlier situations.
In other words, I guess I'm asking, 'are we actually comparing a caster on the mean to a martial on the mean, or are we trying to nerf casters because their potential bustedness is extremely high; despite your average caster player not being any more broken than your average martial player?' Because if the average caster and average martial are more or less the same and we're trying to bring the outlier cases into line, nerfing casters as a whole/being worried about them becoming broken so we deny them tools, is a bad idea. Not to mention that the classes don't need to be perfectly balanced especially if it results in a situation in which they've lost all distinctiveness.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
I'm not sure how I feel about that then because one of the problems I run into constantly as a sorc is that I have to confine myself almost explicitly to the most 'ideal' spells. While playing as a class that allows for me to have spells in reserve, like druid or wizard, does mean I can pick up more problem-solving spells, for casters that can't do that, trying to hamper spellcasting to bring in some 'balance' would do nothing but knock them down lower.
As a sorc I only learn a maximum of 15 spells before background kicks in, so I can't afford 'flab' and need to keep it confined to the 15 BEST spells, which means I can have an average of just over 2 per spell slot level on a level 20 character. Half-casters can't even go above level 5. I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about druids either (at least not their spellcasting). So it feels like the problem is wizards and clerics, and you're trying to nerf ALL spellcasters just because of what those two classes can do.
I'm not sure how I feel about that then because one of the problems I run into constantly as a sorc is that I have to confine myself almost explicitly to the most 'ideal' spells. While playing as a class that allows for me to have spells in reserve, like druid or wizard, does mean I can pick up more problem-solving spells, for casters that can't do that, trying to hamper spellcasting to bring in some 'balance' would do nothing but knock them down lower.
Well, the things discussed so far have zero effect on (current) sorcerers, as they relate to prepared spells.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
I'm not sure how I feel about that then because one of the problems I run into constantly as a sorc is that I have to confine myself almost explicitly to the most 'ideal' spells. While playing as a class that allows for me to have spells in reserve, like druid or wizard, does mean I can pick up more problem-solving spells, for casters that can't do that, trying to hamper spellcasting to bring in some 'balance' would do nothing but knock them down lower.
As a sorc I only learn a maximum of 15 spells before background kicks in, so I can't afford 'flab' and need to keep it confined to the 15 BEST spells, which means I can have an average of just over 2 per spell slot level on a level 20 character. Half-casters can't even go above level 5. I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about druids either (at least not their spellcasting). So it feels like the problem is wizards and clerics, and you're trying to nerf ALL spellcasters just because of what those two classes can do.
Ironically, we haven't seen the sorcerer yet so this is all speculation. HOWEVER, if the Bard and other formerly spontaneous casters are anything to go by you WILL NOT be restricted to just 15 spells. In fact, later sorcerer subclasses don't really limit you that much either. What we are likely to see from sorcerer in one DnD is you are a prepared caster and at first level you can prepare 2 first level spells, and as you level up you will gain more spell slots and you can prepare a number of spells at each level equal to those spell slots. So by level 5 you will already have 4 first, 3 second and 2 3rd for a total of 9 spells. By the time you are level 9 you will have 14 total spells known 4 at first, 3 at second, 3 at third, 3 at 4th and 1 at 5th and by the time you are 10 you will already have the 15 you are worried about.
What people are mostly talking about is squishing the spell casters not just pure nerfing. There is going to be greater parity of spell casters as the weaker ones are brought up and the stronger ones are brought down.
As far as the issue people are having with being FORCED to take lower level spells, it encourages better creativity on the casters part. At level 11 when you get 1 6th level slot, the issue probably shouldn't be "What is the BEST spell for ALL situations for this 6th level slot" the question should be that OR "what spell at this level can do something no LOWER level spell upcast to this level can do" lets take Bard as an example (especially since it is one of the former spontaneous casters). The options at 6th level are True Seeing, Programmed Illusion, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Move Earth, mass suggestion, flesh to stone, disintegrate. 1/7 options. Now if you want a combat option you aren't taking Move Earth or Programmed Illusion, but if you aren't planning on combat that day or are preparing for combat against an army the fact that you CAN change to one of these for your daily prep is incredibly useful. Mass suggestion is usually the go to for people, it can effect 12 people, and depending on the suggestion can last 24 hours, but you can get pretty close to similar with a good ol' first level charm person spell up cast. True seeing when you know about a lot of shapeshifters and invisible people, Otto's irresistible dance when you know you are going to be fighting something with legendary resistance, disintegrate is the "anti-wall of force" and good single target damage for a bard. None of these are really auto picks or auto avoid, even when you only have 1.
If you think you are going to need an illusion but also want Otto's dance, a 3rd level major image prep can substitute for programmed illusion. See invisibily for true seeing to a degree, so on and so forth. The point is, the first, second, and 3rd level spell preps should encourage more upcasting and more creative use of lower level spells. If someone is picking the same spells every time on every character, as long as they are having fun, good for them. If they aren't having fun then they will eventually look to be more creative with their spell selection.
Just looking at an 11th level bard, I probably would prep Charm person, Feather Fall, Detect Magic, Longstrider Invisibility, See Invisibility, Locate Object Fly, Major Image, Tongues Polymorph, Confusion, Arcane Eye Hold Monster, Pass Wall, Seeming Disintegrate
Looking at this list, there is a wide variety of spells. Many of which can be upcast and I do not feel a single one is wasted. I may not NEED See Invisibility, but that is the same to be said for True sight. I may not need Locate object or Arcane Eye, The same can be said for Scrying. There are spells that do not get cast every day, but by forcing things like this we can see some thought needs to be put into what you take. (this isn't accounting for magical secrets)
Lets take level 5 for an example. Hypnotic Pattern and fly would be my two 3rds, followed by Invisibility, Rope Trick and Knock, First, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image and Charm Person.
Utility easily fits.
Lets look at Druid.
11th level Detect magic, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Fog Cloud Lesser Restoration, Pass without Trace, Locate Object Dispel Magic, Revivify, Sleet Storm Polymorph, Freedom of movement, Conjure woodland beings Scrying, tree stride, Wall of Stone Heal
Again utility easily fits, and honestly, the druid list is so full of good choices. I also think we can see how, as a player levels, the spells they favor for their lower level slots change. Combat spells would be best for the top few spells and spell levels. But, unless the spell upcasts well, lower level spells are for out of combat utility. Because that is when the action to cast it is less punishing and the power of the spell is still substantial
I'm not sure how I feel about that then because one of the problems I run into constantly as a sorc is that I have to confine myself almost explicitly to the most 'ideal' spells. While playing as a class that allows for me to have spells in reserve, like druid or wizard, does mean I can pick up more problem-solving spells, for casters that can't do that, trying to hamper spellcasting to bring in some 'balance' would do nothing but knock them down lower.
Well, the things discussed so far have zero effect on (current) sorcerers, as they relate to prepared spells.
So then the issue isn't with CASTERS, it's with specific CLASSES? Becaise, if so, then maybe you should look into class-specific solutions instead of targeting casters as a whole?
Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast.
Yes, damaging cantrips will be better than 1st and 2nd level damaging spells but... like... don't prepare those? Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Silvery Barbs, oh look you're at 4 already. Rope Trick, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, that's three.
Silvery Barbs and Vortex Warp are definitely not being included in One D&D, Absorb Elements is also not currently included. Plus you are assuming an Arcane caster here whereas there is also Cleric & Druid also affected by the changes. Rope Trick is unnecessary once you have Tiny Hut so after all of that we have: Shield, Mage Armor + Misty Step.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
Limiting spell preparations isn't really going to do anything about that though since an absolute ton of utility are low level spells: Invisibility, Misty Step, Fly, Tiny Hut, Polymorph, Detect Magic, Find Familiar <- these are the spells that let Wizards solve a ton of problems. Most of the high level utility spells don't have non-magical solutions so limiting preparations just means more "Oh we need to X? we have to take a long rest then so I can prepare it." No party is going to spend 2 weeks travelling by airship because the wizard didn't prepare teleport, they aren't going to cross a continent looking for someone because the druid didn't prepare scrying.
TBH, getting rid of Misty Step, Thunder Step, and Dimension Door would be the only way to nerf the wizard's utility. Low level teleportation is the number 1 "solve problem" spell since it just lets you skip over anything/everything.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
Limiting spell preparations isn't really going to do anything about that though since an absolute ton of utility are low level spells: Invisibility, Misty Step, Fly, Tiny Hut, Polymorph, Detect Magic, Find Familiar <- these are the spells that let Wizards solve a ton of problems. Most of the high level utility spells don't have non-magical solutions so limiting preparations just means more "Oh we need to X? we have to take a long rest then so I can prepare it." No party is going to spend 2 weeks travelling by airship because the wizard didn't prepare teleport, they aren't going to cross a continent looking for someone because the druid didn't prepare scrying.
TBH, getting rid of Misty Step, Thunder Step, and Dimension Door would be the only way to nerf the wizard's utility. Low level teleportation is the number 1 "solve problem" spell since it just lets you skip over anything/everything.
While I agree with Invisibility being too OP, the rest don't seem like they're particuarly overpowered with the exception of Polymorph. And that's a 4th level spell. A decent chunk of characters either won't gain access to it or won't do so till mid/late game. Misty Step is an invaluable escape tool for casters in combat considering they don't have HP and usually don't have AC either. I feel like you might be exaggerating the problem aside from Fly and Invisibility, which can also just be relocated to higher spell levels.
Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast.
Yes, damaging cantrips will be better than 1st and 2nd level damaging spells but... like... don't prepare those? Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Silvery Barbs, oh look you're at 4 already. Rope Trick, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, that's three.
Silvery Barbs and Vortex Warp are definitely not being included in One D&D, Absorb Elements is also not currently included. Plus you are assuming an Arcane caster here whereas there is also Cleric & Druid also affected by the changes. Rope Trick is unnecessary once you have Tiny Hut so after all of that we have: Shield, Mage Armor + Misty Step.
1) OneD&D is explicitly backwards compatible with that stuff.
2) Even if your table bans non-core spells for whatever reason, you still have plenty of options besides damaging spells for those slots. Charm Person, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Augury, Detect Thoughts, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, and Phantasmal Force are all core and therefore will be in OneD&D. Done.
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Is it any weirder than the fighter all of a sudden picking up two cantrips and a 1st level spell via Magic Initiate Feat? I don't see adding in the 1st level domain spells back in at level 3 all that hard. Your Deity (or whatever) grants you these spells, at 3rd level. Why can't 1st level spells be part of it?
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I do not agree with the way of preparing spells for DnD one, I would accept it if it is not just a suggestion, so that new players can be easily guided, but to make it more rigid than if we have to prepare a certain number of spells of each level according to the levels to our spaces, I don't see it as a good idea.
I like PsyrenXY’s suggestion.
You may prepare a number of spells equal to your spell slots. You may prepare a spell of the same level of the spell slot or lower.
The major problem here is the "feels bad" aspect, and the further narrowing of spells actually seeing use in the game. A 13th level wizard gets only one 7th level spell per day. If they never get to actually use that spell slot because they don't have the right spell prepared (e.g. they prep Teleport but the party doesn't need it, or they prep Forcecage and all the enemies can teleport) that feels bad. Likewise, if you never cast half of the spells you have prepared because you use all your 1st level slots for Shield and all your 2nd level slots for Mirror Image, then that feels bad. You'll end up learning to only prepare spells that have the most universal application even more so that caster do so now.
I 100% agree that casters need a nerf, but I would rather see that happen by having spells themselves get nerfed, than simply making it so that they don't use half their top level spellslots because they don't have the right spell prepared. If you want casters to not actually use their spellslots b/c having them use their spellslots is OP / unfun, then decrease the number of spell slots they have.
But... you will always get to use it. Upcasting lower spells to those slots is still a thing*, and now you're guaranteed to have some prepared.
*Unless you're a Warlock anyway, though I suspect they will be changing too
This can happen now. In fact, under current rules, you might never have mirror image prepared in the first place because you've spent all your preparations on higher level spells to maximize your chances of having the one you need.
I'd argue that prepping a bunch of spells of X level only to run out of X level slots, and then having fewer spells prepped of the levels below that one is what feels bad. (That and asking new players to do a bunch of extra math instead of just looking at the table already in front of them.)
Oh don't worry, I want some of the spells nerfed too. The current version of simulacrum needs to die in a fire for example, and I hate the fact that Force-anything is completely impenetrable even if you're Gilgamesh dual-wielding Excalibur and Mjolnir.
Sorry your argument is, this will nerf casters and therefore require more people to play casters to make up for the nerfing? How does that help martials if you need more players to be casters to make up for what one caster could do but is now not allowed to? Its a poor design that prevents creative spells in place for consistent and dependable spells. So you're going to have people more than every saying "Ugh if only I had that spell prepared but I couldn't because I could only choose one". The way to nerf something isn't taking creative choices away, its powering down the spells. Thats at least my opinion.
As many have pointed out, number of spells slots = number of spells you can prepare, in any order. Forcing higher levels to keep 4 1st level spells or 3 2nd level spells they'll never use is just pointless. Thankfully, my DM has already stated if One D&D goes forward with this he'd definitely Homebrew to allow spell slots known equal to spells you can prepare. Hopefully other DM's agree.
You don't have to "make up for the nerfing." Your wizard will still be OP if you can't prepare half a dozen 7th-level spells, I promise.
If people felt that having only a few low left spells "feels bad" after they cast their one big spell slot, then people wouldn't prep a bunch of high level spells rather than low level ones and there would be no need to change the rules and changing the rules wouldn't be considered a nerf. The fact that this change is seen as a nerf, and WotC felt the need to change the rules indicates that it doesn't "feel bad" to have only a couple low level spells prepared and that many (arguably most) players would much rather cast a 7th level spell than an upcast 4th level one even if that means they only have 2x 4th level spells to choose from. Forcing players to prepare a half dozen spells they will never use because their cantrips are more powerful than those spells is unfun. I'd rather have fewer spellslots and weaker spells than be stuck with spells I don't want to cast. It's my major issue with Pathfinder 2e casters as well, it sucks to have a perfectly good spellslot sitting around while your party is dying all around you but you can't use that spell slot to save them because of arbitrary preparation restrictions.
Yes, damaging cantrips will be better than 1st and 2nd level damaging spells but... like... don't prepare those? Shield, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Silvery Barbs, oh look you're at 4 already. Rope Trick, Misty Step, Vortex Warp, that's three.
I'm reading you loud and clear; we need to nerf cantrips too.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but a lot of people are saying that casters > martials. While I'm not disputing that, I am curious as to how true that actually IS and why. In my D&D groups I'm usually the only pure caster with everyone else either multiclassing or using classes that mix the two (like ranger) and it's well known that 'human fighter' is, by far, the most common race/class combination despite being a martial. While I have felt powerful as the typically-only-pure-caster not only does that usually wait till lower levels but happens when I am engaging in party support as opposed to being some OMGWTFOPed caster. While I'm willing to accept that this is a personal failing on my own part, I am curious as to how accurate this representation actually is as opposed to people being worried about outlier situations.
In other words, I guess I'm asking, 'are we actually comparing a caster on the mean to a martial on the mean, or are we trying to nerf casters because their potential bustedness is extremely high; despite your average caster player not being any more broken than your average martial player?' Because if the average caster and average martial are more or less the same and we're trying to bring the outlier cases into line, nerfing casters as a whole/being worried about them becoming broken so we deny them tools, is a bad idea. Not to mention that the classes don't need to be perfectly balanced especially if it results in a situation in which they've lost all distinctiveness.
It's mostly not an issue of raw fighting power, at least in tier 1-2 -- it's an issue of the ability to cast "solve problem".
I'm not sure how I feel about that then because one of the problems I run into constantly as a sorc is that I have to confine myself almost explicitly to the most 'ideal' spells. While playing as a class that allows for me to have spells in reserve, like druid or wizard, does mean I can pick up more problem-solving spells, for casters that can't do that, trying to hamper spellcasting to bring in some 'balance' would do nothing but knock them down lower.
As a sorc I only learn a maximum of 15 spells before background kicks in, so I can't afford 'flab' and need to keep it confined to the 15 BEST spells, which means I can have an average of just over 2 per spell slot level on a level 20 character. Half-casters can't even go above level 5. I don't think I've ever heard someone complain about druids either (at least not their spellcasting). So it feels like the problem is wizards and clerics, and you're trying to nerf ALL spellcasters just because of what those two classes can do.
Well, the things discussed so far have zero effect on (current) sorcerers, as they relate to prepared spells.
Ironically, we haven't seen the sorcerer yet so this is all speculation. HOWEVER, if the Bard and other formerly spontaneous casters are anything to go by you WILL NOT be restricted to just 15 spells. In fact, later sorcerer subclasses don't really limit you that much either. What we are likely to see from sorcerer in one DnD is you are a prepared caster and at first level you can prepare 2 first level spells, and as you level up you will gain more spell slots and you can prepare a number of spells at each level equal to those spell slots. So by level 5 you will already have 4 first, 3 second and 2 3rd for a total of 9 spells. By the time you are level 9 you will have 14 total spells known 4 at first, 3 at second, 3 at third, 3 at 4th and 1 at 5th and by the time you are 10 you will already have the 15 you are worried about.
What people are mostly talking about is squishing the spell casters not just pure nerfing. There is going to be greater parity of spell casters as the weaker ones are brought up and the stronger ones are brought down.
As far as the issue people are having with being FORCED to take lower level spells, it encourages better creativity on the casters part. At level 11 when you get 1 6th level slot, the issue probably shouldn't be "What is the BEST spell for ALL situations for this 6th level slot" the question should be that OR "what spell at this level can do something no LOWER level spell upcast to this level can do" lets take Bard as an example (especially since it is one of the former spontaneous casters).
The options at 6th level are True Seeing, Programmed Illusion, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Move Earth, mass suggestion, flesh to stone, disintegrate. 1/7 options. Now if you want a combat option you aren't taking Move Earth or Programmed Illusion, but if you aren't planning on combat that day or are preparing for combat against an army the fact that you CAN change to one of these for your daily prep is incredibly useful. Mass suggestion is usually the go to for people, it can effect 12 people, and depending on the suggestion can last 24 hours, but you can get pretty close to similar with a good ol' first level charm person spell up cast. True seeing when you know about a lot of shapeshifters and invisible people, Otto's irresistible dance when you know you are going to be fighting something with legendary resistance, disintegrate is the "anti-wall of force" and good single target damage for a bard. None of these are really auto picks or auto avoid, even when you only have 1.
If you think you are going to need an illusion but also want Otto's dance, a 3rd level major image prep can substitute for programmed illusion. See invisibily for true seeing to a degree, so on and so forth. The point is, the first, second, and 3rd level spell preps should encourage more upcasting and more creative use of lower level spells. If someone is picking the same spells every time on every character, as long as they are having fun, good for them. If they aren't having fun then they will eventually look to be more creative with their spell selection.
Just looking at an 11th level bard, I probably would prep
Charm person, Feather Fall, Detect Magic, Longstrider
Invisibility, See Invisibility, Locate Object
Fly, Major Image, Tongues
Polymorph, Confusion, Arcane Eye
Hold Monster, Pass Wall, Seeming
Disintegrate
Looking at this list, there is a wide variety of spells. Many of which can be upcast and I do not feel a single one is wasted. I may not NEED See Invisibility, but that is the same to be said for True sight. I may not need Locate object or Arcane Eye, The same can be said for Scrying. There are spells that do not get cast every day, but by forcing things like this we can see some thought needs to be put into what you take. (this isn't accounting for magical secrets)
Lets take level 5 for an example.
Hypnotic Pattern and fly would be my two 3rds, followed by Invisibility, Rope Trick and Knock, First, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image and Charm Person.
Utility easily fits.
Lets look at Druid.
11th level
Detect magic, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Fog Cloud
Lesser Restoration, Pass without Trace, Locate Object
Dispel Magic, Revivify, Sleet Storm
Polymorph, Freedom of movement, Conjure woodland beings
Scrying, tree stride, Wall of Stone
Heal
Again utility easily fits, and honestly, the druid list is so full of good choices. I also think we can see how, as a player levels, the spells they favor for their lower level slots change. Combat spells would be best for the top few spells and spell levels. But, unless the spell upcasts well, lower level spells are for out of combat utility. Because that is when the action to cast it is less punishing and the power of the spell is still substantial
So then the issue isn't with CASTERS, it's with specific CLASSES? Becaise, if so, then maybe you should look into class-specific solutions instead of targeting casters as a whole?
Silvery Barbs and Vortex Warp are definitely not being included in One D&D, Absorb Elements is also not currently included. Plus you are assuming an Arcane caster here whereas there is also Cleric & Druid also affected by the changes. Rope Trick is unnecessary once you have Tiny Hut so after all of that we have: Shield, Mage Armor + Misty Step.
Limiting spell preparations isn't really going to do anything about that though since an absolute ton of utility are low level spells: Invisibility, Misty Step, Fly, Tiny Hut, Polymorph, Detect Magic, Find Familiar <- these are the spells that let Wizards solve a ton of problems. Most of the high level utility spells don't have non-magical solutions so limiting preparations just means more "Oh we need to X? we have to take a long rest then so I can prepare it." No party is going to spend 2 weeks travelling by airship because the wizard didn't prepare teleport, they aren't going to cross a continent looking for someone because the druid didn't prepare scrying.
TBH, getting rid of Misty Step, Thunder Step, and Dimension Door would be the only way to nerf the wizard's utility. Low level teleportation is the number 1 "solve problem" spell since it just lets you skip over anything/everything.
While I agree with Invisibility being too OP, the rest don't seem like they're particuarly overpowered with the exception of Polymorph. And that's a 4th level spell. A decent chunk of characters either won't gain access to it or won't do so till mid/late game. Misty Step is an invaluable escape tool for casters in combat considering they don't have HP and usually don't have AC either. I feel like you might be exaggerating the problem aside from Fly and Invisibility, which can also just be relocated to higher spell levels.
1) OneD&D is explicitly backwards compatible with that stuff.
2) Even if your table bans non-core spells for whatever reason, you still have plenty of options besides damaging spells for those slots. Charm Person, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Augury, Detect Thoughts, Blindess/Deafness, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, and Phantasmal Force are all core and therefore will be in OneD&D. Done.