It's a bit weird that clerics will get access to all of the smite spells that were usually restricted to the paladin in 1D&D. It's also pretty weird that druids will get things like cordon of arrows and swift quiver. It's also quite annoying that Bladesingers have a pretty low amount of martial/spell synergy since the wizard spell list isn't built with martials in mind. Why don't we solve these problems at once and make a new spell tag, like the ritual tag, which restricts a spell's ability to be prepared to only characters with features that allow them to (maybe call them war spells)? It wouldn't just be giving classes individual spell lists again, since certain subclasses and features- like Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Invocations, War Domain, Holy Orders, some magic swords, and plenty of other things- could allow access to war spells. It would make the martial casters have more options to be martial casters, while also making them more distinct from non-martial casters.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No need for restrictions. Casters will simply not use them because... well, they won't need to. What we need is just more spells like that to accomodate divine, primal, and arcane gishes, with their own distinct styles. like divine being smitey, arcane being tricky (with teleportation, flying weapons, or illusions that obfuscate your real movement), and primal being more elemental and interacting with environment. And for smite spells to scale.
The issue isn't Clerics having access to smites, the smites overall aren't that great. The issue will be Paladin getting access to spells like Spiritual Weapon. At level 5, do you want to cast a spell that does 2d6 damage once (~7 damage) and forces an invisible creature to be visible or to cast a spell that does 1d8+CHA damage ~65% chance per round (4.8~6.2 DPR) for up to 10 rounds, both at the cost of a single spell slot, both use concentration.
The only reason to still be using smite spells as a Paladin is that concentration is going to be slightly problematic to keep up for 2 rounds if you are the main tank but if there is one class that can keep up concentration even under attack, that is Paladin. The obvious fix for Paladin would be to change Divine Smites, change it from at-will feature on hit to a feature that increases damage on smite spells, adding 1d8 radiant damage per tier of the smite spell. Alternatively you could go with 1d6 radiant damage per tier but allow switching STR for CHA for the attack and damage rolls while concentrating on any smite spell.
As for the other classes, Eldritch Knight already has the most options of any none-half caster martial. Bladesinger gets to switch an attack for a cantrip and still get access to 9th-level spells at level 17... Pact of the Blade needs some hexblade features added to it and a similar change like Paladin I recommend for Paladin above (but force instead of radiant). War Domain is basically specialized into Spiritual Weapon, tho now Spiritual Weapon is concentration, perhaps not so much (unless they get a subclass feature that removes concentration for that spell)...
I would like to see smite spells regulated to cantrip attacks along the scag lines.
Make a melee attack for: weapon dice +1d8 radiant dmg. (Scaling as a cantrip) Rider effect: Mark target until end of your turn for X effect.
Make a melee cleric more viable.
It'd blur the line between Paladin and Cleric to much, and people already complain about Wizard and Sorcerer being too similar. More so, unless there was something in extra attack, it'd just make Paladin kinda pointless since a scaling cantrip would be better than using the extra attack from extra attack. If you want to play a holy warrior, there is paladin, if you want to play the holy caster there is cleric, giving cleric too much melee is basically a Paladin but with full spellcasting progression.
I am all for another spell list specifically for martials Or by taking some spells off the lists but still existing as subclass or feature spells.
one of the interesting bits of 5e builds was acquiring unique spells for abnormal builds. This was a major draw for bards or specific special subclasses. spells always became a Craving that drove the desire for new class supplements but in turn it made phb subclasses less desirable. a "new edition" is a good way to refresh such interest but starting with too much overlap has the potential to limit the idea of character concepts that make dnd unique from other systems.
I would like to see smite spells regulated to cantrip attacks along the scag lines.
Make a melee attack for: weapon dice +1d8 radiant dmg. (Scaling as a cantrip) Rider effect: Mark target until end of your turn for X effect.
Make a melee cleric more viable.
It'd blur the line between Paladin and Cleric to much, and people already complain about Wizard and Sorcerer being too similar. More so, unless there was something in extra attack, it'd just make Paladin kinda pointless since a scaling cantrip would be better than using the extra attack from extra attack. If you want to play a holy warrior, there is paladin, if you want to play the holy caster there is cleric, giving cleric too much melee is basically a Paladin but with full spellcasting progression.
This is exactly why I want Clerics to have fewer Paladin spells. If Clerics get all the spells that Paladins do- and twice as quickly, for that matter- then Paladins become way less unique.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I would like to see smite spells regulated to cantrip attacks along the scag lines.
Make a melee attack for: weapon dice +1d8 radiant dmg. (Scaling as a cantrip) Rider effect: Mark target until end of your turn for X effect.
Make a melee cleric more viable.
It'd blur the line between Paladin and Cleric to much, and people already complain about Wizard and Sorcerer being too similar. More so, unless there was something in extra attack, it'd just make Paladin kinda pointless since a scaling cantrip would be better than using the extra attack from extra attack. If you want to play a holy warrior, there is paladin, if you want to play the holy caster there is cleric, giving cleric too much melee is basically a Paladin but with full spellcasting progression.
This is exactly why I want Clerics to have fewer Paladin spells. If Clerics get all the spells that Paladins do- and twice as quickly, for that matter- then Paladins become way less unique.
I don't think the spells make a difference here, most of the Paladin specific spells are weaker than the cleric specific spells, more so the smite spells which are under powered. The few useful paladin spells that cleric are getting aren't really a major issue, such as find steed/find greater steed or Aura of Purity/Life. The only issue is the few really good tier 5 spells, those being Destructive Wave or Circle of Power; might be a tiny bit over powered for level 9 characters.
I would like to see smite spells regulated to cantrip attacks along the scag lines.
Make a melee attack for: weapon dice +1d8 radiant dmg. (Scaling as a cantrip) Rider effect: Mark target until end of your turn for X effect.
Make a melee cleric more viable.
It'd blur the line between Paladin and Cleric to much, and people already complain about Wizard and Sorcerer being too similar. More so, unless there was something in extra attack, it'd just make Paladin kinda pointless since a scaling cantrip would be better than using the extra attack from extra attack. If you want to play a holy warrior, there is paladin, if you want to play the holy caster there is cleric, giving cleric too much melee is basically a Paladin but with full spellcasting progression.
This is exactly why I want Clerics to have fewer Paladin spells. If Clerics get all the spells that Paladins do- and twice as quickly, for that matter- then Paladins become way less unique.
Hot take: clerics shouldn't get armor and shield training, unless they specialize in it. I, too, believe that there should be a clearer distinction between paladins and clerics, but I really like unified spell lists. Instead, the distinction should be achieved through class abilities and proficiencies that solidify paladni's role on the frontline, and cleric's role as a second row melee at most, for the price of speccing into survivability heavily.
The issue isn't Clerics having access to smites, the smites overall aren't that great. The issue will be Paladin getting access to spells like Spiritual Weapon. At level 5, do you want to cast a spell that does 2d6 damage once (~7 damage) and forces an invisible creature to be visible or to cast a spell that does 1d8+CHA damage ~65% chance per round (4.8~6.2 DPR) for up to 10 rounds, both at the cost of a single spell slot, both use concentration.
The only reason to still be using smite spells as a Paladin is that concentration is going to be slightly problematic to keep up for 2 rounds if you are the main tank but if there is one class that can keep up concentration even under attack, that is Paladin. The obvious fix for Paladin would be to change Divine Smites, change it from at-will feature on hit to a feature that increases damage on smite spells, adding 1d8 radiant damage per tier of the smite spell. Alternatively you could go with 1d6 radiant damage per tier but allow switching STR for CHA for the attack and damage rolls while concentrating on any smite spell.
As for the other classes, Eldritch Knight already has the most options of any none-half caster martial. Bladesinger gets to switch an attack for a cantrip and still get access to 9th-level spells at level 17... Pact of the Blade needs some hexblade features added to it and a similar change like Paladin I recommend for Paladin above (but force instead of radiant). War Domain is basically specialized into Spiritual Weapon, tho now Spiritual Weapon is concentration, perhaps not so much (unless they get a subclass feature that removes concentration for that spell)...
To the bolded, what if they made Spiritual Weapon a Conjuration spell, like Spirit Guardians. Then don't give access to Conjuration Divine spells to Paladin. (edit: although that would screw up Find Stee/Greater Steed)
As for the smite spells, I'm not sure if it is a problem. I could see WotC maybe making them weaker, but then give the Paladin a bonus when casting a smite spell. Do many players use the smite spells? I don't have a lot of experience with Paladins in the party, but they typically just used their spell slots for Divine Smites.
The issue isn't Clerics having access to smites, the smites overall aren't that great. The issue will be Paladin getting access to spells like Spiritual Weapon. At level 5, do you want to cast a spell that does 2d6 damage once (~7 damage) and forces an invisible creature to be visible or to cast a spell that does 1d8+CHA damage ~65% chance per round (4.8~6.2 DPR) for up to 10 rounds, both at the cost of a single spell slot, both use concentration.
The only reason to still be using smite spells as a Paladin is that concentration is going to be slightly problematic to keep up for 2 rounds if you are the main tank but if there is one class that can keep up concentration even under attack, that is Paladin. The obvious fix for Paladin would be to change Divine Smites, change it from at-will feature on hit to a feature that increases damage on smite spells, adding 1d8 radiant damage per tier of the smite spell. Alternatively you could go with 1d6 radiant damage per tier but allow switching STR for CHA for the attack and damage rolls while concentrating on any smite spell.
As for the other classes, Eldritch Knight already has the most options of any none-half caster martial. Bladesinger gets to switch an attack for a cantrip and still get access to 9th-level spells at level 17... Pact of the Blade needs some hexblade features added to it and a similar change like Paladin I recommend for Paladin above (but force instead of radiant). War Domain is basically specialized into Spiritual Weapon, tho now Spiritual Weapon is concentration, perhaps not so much (unless they get a subclass feature that removes concentration for that spell)...
To the bolded, what if they made Spiritual Weapon a Conjuration spell, like Spirit Guardians. Then don't give access to Conjuration Divine spells to Paladin. (edit: although that would screw up Find Stee/Greater Steed)
As for the smite spells, I'm not sure if it is a problem. I could see WotC maybe making them weaker, but then give the Paladin a bonus when casting a smite spell. Do many players use the smite spells? I don't have a lot of experience with Paladins in the party, but they typically just used their spell slots for Divine Smites.
Paladin only gets 1 less conjuration spell by 5th level spells than cleric, so that doesn't really work.
Some paladin's use the smite spells but not many since smite spells can not be crit fished like Divine smite and Divine smite does more damage, so unless you're trying to burn literally every spell slot that you can, it isn't worth casting them most of the time. Also polearms and 2-weapon fighting would never use them, some multiclass builds also don't use them, and more support based paladins might use spells like bless, which conflict on concentration. A pure strength based offense (tank) paladin would probably use them tho.
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It's a bit weird that clerics will get access to all of the smite spells that were usually restricted to the paladin in 1D&D. It's also pretty weird that druids will get things like cordon of arrows and swift quiver. It's also quite annoying that Bladesingers have a pretty low amount of martial/spell synergy since the wizard spell list isn't built with martials in mind. Why don't we solve these problems at once and make a new spell tag, like the ritual tag, which restricts a spell's ability to be prepared to only characters with features that allow them to (maybe call them war spells)? It wouldn't just be giving classes individual spell lists again, since certain subclasses and features- like Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger, Pact of the Blade, Eldritch Invocations, War Domain, Holy Orders, some magic swords, and plenty of other things- could allow access to war spells. It would make the martial casters have more options to be martial casters, while also making them more distinct from non-martial casters.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No need for restrictions. Casters will simply not use them because... well, they won't need to. What we need is just more spells like that to accomodate divine, primal, and arcane gishes, with their own distinct styles. like divine being smitey, arcane being tricky (with teleportation, flying weapons, or illusions that obfuscate your real movement), and primal being more elemental and interacting with environment. And for smite spells to scale.
The issue isn't Clerics having access to smites, the smites overall aren't that great. The issue will be Paladin getting access to spells like Spiritual Weapon. At level 5, do you want to cast a spell that does 2d6 damage once (~7 damage) and forces an invisible creature to be visible or to cast a spell that does 1d8+CHA damage ~65% chance per round (4.8~6.2 DPR) for up to 10 rounds, both at the cost of a single spell slot, both use concentration.
The only reason to still be using smite spells as a Paladin is that concentration is going to be slightly problematic to keep up for 2 rounds if you are the main tank but if there is one class that can keep up concentration even under attack, that is Paladin. The obvious fix for Paladin would be to change Divine Smites, change it from at-will feature on hit to a feature that increases damage on smite spells, adding 1d8 radiant damage per tier of the smite spell. Alternatively you could go with 1d6 radiant damage per tier but allow switching STR for CHA for the attack and damage rolls while concentrating on any smite spell.
As for the other classes, Eldritch Knight already has the most options of any none-half caster martial. Bladesinger gets to switch an attack for a cantrip and still get access to 9th-level spells at level 17... Pact of the Blade needs some hexblade features added to it and a similar change like Paladin I recommend for Paladin above (but force instead of radiant). War Domain is basically specialized into Spiritual Weapon, tho now Spiritual Weapon is concentration, perhaps not so much (unless they get a subclass feature that removes concentration for that spell)...
I would like to see smite spells regulated to cantrip attacks along the scag lines.
Make a melee attack for: weapon dice +1d8 radiant dmg. (Scaling as a cantrip)
Rider effect: Mark target until end of your turn for X effect.
Make a melee cleric more viable.
It'd blur the line between Paladin and Cleric to much, and people already complain about Wizard and Sorcerer being too similar. More so, unless there was something in extra attack, it'd just make Paladin kinda pointless since a scaling cantrip would be better than using the extra attack from extra attack. If you want to play a holy warrior, there is paladin, if you want to play the holy caster there is cleric, giving cleric too much melee is basically a Paladin but with full spellcasting progression.
I am all for another spell list specifically for martials Or by taking some spells off the lists but still existing as subclass or feature spells.
one of the interesting bits of 5e builds was acquiring unique spells for abnormal builds. This was a major draw for bards or specific special subclasses. spells always became a Craving that drove the desire for new class supplements but in turn it made phb subclasses less desirable. a "new edition" is a good way to refresh such interest but starting with too much overlap has the potential to limit the idea of character concepts that make dnd unique from other systems.
This is exactly why I want Clerics to have fewer Paladin spells. If Clerics get all the spells that Paladins do- and twice as quickly, for that matter- then Paladins become way less unique.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I don't think the spells make a difference here, most of the Paladin specific spells are weaker than the cleric specific spells, more so the smite spells which are under powered. The few useful paladin spells that cleric are getting aren't really a major issue, such as find steed/find greater steed or Aura of Purity/Life. The only issue is the few really good tier 5 spells, those being Destructive Wave or Circle of Power; might be a tiny bit over powered for level 9 characters.
Hot take: clerics shouldn't get armor and shield training, unless they specialize in it. I, too, believe that there should be a clearer distinction between paladins and clerics, but I really like unified spell lists. Instead, the distinction should be achieved through class abilities and proficiencies that solidify paladni's role on the frontline, and cleric's role as a second row melee at most, for the price of speccing into survivability heavily.
To the bolded, what if they made Spiritual Weapon a Conjuration spell, like Spirit Guardians. Then don't give access to Conjuration Divine spells to Paladin. (edit: although that would screw up Find Stee/Greater Steed)
As for the smite spells, I'm not sure if it is a problem. I could see WotC maybe making them weaker, but then give the Paladin a bonus when casting a smite spell. Do many players use the smite spells? I don't have a lot of experience with Paladins in the party, but they typically just used their spell slots for Divine Smites.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Paladin only gets 1 less conjuration spell by 5th level spells than cleric, so that doesn't really work.
Some paladin's use the smite spells but not many since smite spells can not be crit fished like Divine smite and Divine smite does more damage, so unless you're trying to burn literally every spell slot that you can, it isn't worth casting them most of the time. Also polearms and 2-weapon fighting would never use them, some multiclass builds also don't use them, and more support based paladins might use spells like bless, which conflict on concentration. A pure strength based offense (tank) paladin would probably use them tho.