my suggestion: dual wielding feat should work only with 1-hand weapons
For a paladin you could get 2 attacks + polearm bonus + light weapon free attack
and possibly do a shield for shield master that no longer is a bonus action
From nadirku on reddit:
”
So something like the following, while requiring the Dual Wielder Feat, and at least Extra Attack:
• Turn 1 (start with two weapon drawn): • Make two attacks with with Two-Weapon Fighting • Stow your Two Weapons after the attacks • Attack with a two-handed weapon • you need to draw the weapon before making the attack • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources • Keep your Two-Handed Weapon drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack • Turn 2 (start with a two-handed weapon) • Attack with the Two-Handed weapon • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources • when you have only 1 attack remaining, stow your two-handed weapon • use your final attack to make two attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting • you need to draw your two weapons before the attacks • keep your two weapons drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack • Repeat from Turn 1
You might bee able to get more damage from additional feats and a purely two-handed weapon build, but as far as I am aware, this is the most powerful option for a Strength based character with Two-Weapon fighting.“
It doesn’t work.It gets weird since this is on the UA section, so I’m not sure if you’re trying to do it with current rules, UA rules, or a mix, but it still doesn’t work, either way.
The current wording in PAM is: “When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon.”
In the UA for PAM it says the attack action has to be with a weapon that has “both the heavy and reach properties.”
You only get the BA attack if you attack with a specific type of weapon. In neither case can the weapon be one you’d use one handed. So you can’t attack with one handed weapons, switch and then use your PAM bonus. I guess under current rules, you could dual wield quarterstaffs or spears (though not under UA) but then you wouldn’t need to change things for the BA attack. And of course, under current rules, it takes a BA to make an extra attack while dual wielding, so you don’t have a BA left for PAM.
Theres also issues with drawing and stowing. The UA dual wielder feat specifically says you can’t use it to draw a two-handed weapon. Even then, both versions say you can draw two when you would normally only be able to draw one. Neither allows you to do something with a third weapon. You could potentially drop them to the ground (many DMs allow that as a free action) and then switch out from the pile of stuff at you feet. Of course, then if you move, or an enemy just picks up or kicks away your weapon from the ground, that ends the little juggling game.
Edit: And donning or doffing a shield requires an action, so there’s no way that comes into play.
No. Stowing the weapons requires your item interaction. You can do two instead of one with dual wielder, yes. But then you’d need a second item interaction to draw the polearm, and you only get one. And the same in reverse. Being able to do two instead of one does not mean you can just swap freely between different weapons.
As I’d said, you could try dropping them to the ground, then maybe if you have a very friendly DM, it could work. Even then I’d rule picking something up from the ground is not the same as drawing it from a scabbard. So the dual wielder stuff would not apply.
I wonder if, rather than making 2WF no longer require a bonus action, it would be better to make it benefit from extra attacks (in which case you get one attack per main hand attack with a qualifying weapon). Yeah, losing your bonus action to get a single extra attack is a really iffy use of a bonus action in higher tiers, but maybe the fix is to make the bonus action better instead of incorporating it into your main attack.
my suggestion: dual wielding feat should work only with 1-hand weapons
For a paladin you could get 2 attacks + polearm bonus + light weapon free attack
and possibly do a shield for shield master that no longer is a bonus action
From nadirku on reddit:
”
So something like the following, while requiring the Dual Wielder Feat, and at least Extra Attack:
• Turn 1 (start with two weapon drawn): • Make two attacks with with Two-Weapon Fighting - sure, totally works. • Stow your Two Weapons after the attacks - free item interaction • Attack with a two-handed weapon - not drawn • you need to draw the weapon before making the attack - oh ok, except you ALREADY USED YOUR INTERACTION • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources - invalid because the last one was invalid • Keep your Two-Handed Weapon drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack - invalid because not drawn • Turn 2 (start with a two-handed weapon) - oh, so you finally drew it this turn. • Attack with the Two-Handed weapon - ok, I'm not going to stop you from attacking. • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources - sure, yes • when you have only 1 attack remaining, stow your two-handed weapon - you already used your interaction at the beginning of the turn. • use your final attack to make two attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting - completely invalid, even if you dropped it you couldn't have drawn the swords. • you need to draw your two weapons before the attacks - exactly, this is impossible. • keep your two weapons drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack - sure except they're not drawn already • Repeat from Turn 1 - okay, have fun.
You might bee able to get more damage from additional feats and a purely two-handed weapon build, but as far as I am aware, this is the most powerful option for a Strength based character with Two-Weapon fighting.“ - it doesn't work
I have given some edits! Even if you did drop your weapons, I would rule that you cannot use your interaction to bend down and pick one or two up, especially given that one weighs like 20 lbs.
my suggestion: dual wielding feat should work only with 1-hand weapons
For a paladin you could get 2 attacks + polearm bonus + light weapon free attack
and possibly do a shield for shield master that no longer is a bonus action
From nadirku on reddit:
”
So something like the following, while requiring the Dual Wielder Feat, and at least Extra Attack:
• Turn 1 (start with two weapon drawn): • Make two attacks with with Two-Weapon Fighting - sure, totally works. • Stow your Two Weapons after the attacks - free item interaction • Attack with a two-handed weapon - not drawn • you need to draw the weapon before making the attack - oh ok, except you ALREADY USED YOUR INTERACTION • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources - invalid because the last one was invalid • Keep your Two-Handed Weapon drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack - invalid because not drawn • Turn 2 (start with a two-handed weapon) - oh, so you finally drew it this turn. • Attack with the Two-Handed weapon - ok, I'm not going to stop you from attacking. • Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources - sure, yes • when you have only 1 attack remaining, stow your two-handed weapon - you already used your interaction at the beginning of the turn. • use your final attack to make two attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting - completely invalid, even if you dropped it you couldn't have drawn the swords. • you need to draw your two weapons before the attacks - exactly, this is impossible. • keep your two weapons drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack - sure except they're not drawn already • Repeat from Turn 1 - okay, have fun.
You might bee able to get more damage from additional feats and a purely two-handed weapon build, but as far as I am aware, this is the most powerful option for a Strength based character with Two-Weapon fighting.“ - it doesn't work
I have given some edits! Even if you did drop your weapons, I would rule that you cannot use your interaction to bend down and pick one or two up, especially given that one weighs like 20 lbs.
I believe with 5e RAW, you can draw a weapon as part of an attack. As this is part of the attack action itself, it doesn't use the Object interaction.
I believe the dual wield feat still lets you draw two weapons at once, so it isn't impossible.
The line of events listed in the OP is technically possible by RAW. Which is sort of the issue. In an environment where RAW has to be used, such as AL, it is possible to do things like this. Also, great swords only weigh 6 pounds.
Oh, I see. So drawing a weapon is part of an attack. Sure. It's still not very strong, given that your heavy weapon might be a, let's say, greatsword and all that you're gaining is extra ability modifier damage a round plus lesser damage on opportunity attacks sometimes. It's ok, I'd allow it for being smart.
In the end, two weapon fighting would produce the fewest anomalies if "attack with two weapons" just replaced a normal attack. This would make it usable in any situation where you can make an attack (green-flame blade? Sure, go for it) but is ... tricky to balance.
I believe with 5e RAW, you can draw a weapon as part of an attack. As this is part of the attack action itself, it doesn't use the Object interaction.
"Draw your weapon as part of an attack" is, specifically, an example of "interact with one object or feature of the environment for free." The full quote is
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
Dual weilder has "You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" still.
No, drawing your weapon is part of the action used to attack, therefore not using up your single interaction.
Even then, I don't think this works.
Round one: assume nothing is drawn when combat begins. Your first attack also lets you draw your light weapons. And only with both out can you take the third attack. This looks normal and works fine.
Round two: you need to stow both in order to attack with the polearm. Any additional attack would logically come after the normal attacks are spent. Which means it can't be added to the front of the order. You could stow both light weapons after the first attack, and then draw the polearm, but you aren't making a second attack with those light weapons.
It's a lot of juggling for, in my estimation, something not worth the return on investment. We're talking 1d10 and 1d4, and a bonus action, versus 1d8 and 1d6.
No, drawing your weapon is part of the action used to attack, therefore not using up your single interaction.
The thing I quoted (quoting again below, bolding for emphasis, with more text) is the exact text from the PHB, and the full source of the rule in question.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
Drawing a weapon (or a pair of them, via Dual Wielding) takes up your single free object interaction for the turn.
No, drawing your weapon is part of the action used to attack, therefore not using up your single interaction.
Even then, I don't think this works.
Round one: assume nothing is drawn when combat begins. Your first attack also lets you draw your light weapons. And only with both out can you take the third attack. This looks normal and works fine.
Round two: you need to stow both in order to attack with the polearm. Any additional attack would logically come after the normal attacks are spent. Which means it can't be added to the front of the order. You could stow both light weapons after the first attack, and then draw the polearm, but you aren't making a second attack with those light weapons.
It's a lot of juggling for, in my estimation, something not worth the return on investment. We're talking 1d10 and 1d4, and a bonus action, versus 1d8 and 1d6.
No, the bonus actions can be inserted anywhere in your turn.
edit: [ONEDnD]
my suggestion: dual wielding feat should work only with 1-hand weapons
For a paladin you could get 2 attacks + polearm bonus + light weapon free attack
and possibly do a shield for shield master that no longer is a bonus action
From nadirku on reddit:
”
So something like the following, while requiring the Dual Wielder Feat, and at least Extra Attack:
• Turn 1 (start with two weapon drawn):
• Make two attacks with with Two-Weapon Fighting
• Stow your Two Weapons after the attacks
• Attack with a two-handed weapon
• you need to draw the weapon before making the attack
• Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources
• Keep your Two-Handed Weapon drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack
• Turn 2 (start with a two-handed weapon)
• Attack with the Two-Handed weapon
• Make any additional attacks available from Extra Attack(2), Extra Attack(3), Haste, Action Surge, Polearm Master: Pole Strike , Great Weapon Master: Cleave, or other sources
• when you have only 1 attack remaining, stow your two-handed weapon
• use your final attack to make two attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting
• you need to draw your two weapons before the attacks
• keep your two weapons drawn in case you can make an Opportunity Attack
• Repeat from Turn 1
You might bee able to get more damage from additional feats and a purely two-handed weapon build, but as far as I am aware, this is the most powerful option for a Strength based character with Two-Weapon fighting.“
Technically that works, for now. Though I doubt there's gonna be a single DM that allows this.
I think some goofy stuff like this needs to be more clear or get rid of bonus action from polearm and make it a free action like dual wields
then maybe have a 1 free special action limit per round
idk
it is kind if cool but also op for paladin
There were reasons the game previously limited people to one 'free draw' a turn. This is one of those reasons.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah... definitely does not seem intended. Hilarious to imagine, but definitely not intended.
It doesn’t work.It gets weird since this is on the UA section, so I’m not sure if you’re trying to do it with current rules, UA rules, or a mix, but it still doesn’t work, either way.
The current wording in PAM is:
“When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon.”
In the UA for PAM it says the attack action has to be with a weapon that has “both the heavy and reach properties.”
You only get the BA attack if you attack with a specific type of weapon. In neither case can the weapon be one you’d use one handed. So you can’t attack with one handed weapons, switch and then use your PAM bonus. I guess under current rules, you could dual wield quarterstaffs or spears (though not under UA) but then you wouldn’t need to change things for the BA attack. And of course, under current rules, it takes a BA to make an extra attack while dual wielding, so you don’t have a BA left for PAM.
Theres also issues with drawing and stowing. The UA dual wielder feat specifically says you can’t use it to draw a two-handed weapon. Even then, both versions say you can draw two when you would normally only be able to draw one. Neither allows you to do something with a third weapon. You could potentially drop them to the ground (many DMs allow that as a free action) and then switch out from the pile of stuff at you feet. Of course, then if you move, or an enemy just picks up or kicks away your weapon from the ground, that ends the little juggling game.
Edit: And donning or doffing a shield requires an action, so there’s no way that comes into play.
Hmm you may be right for round 2. I also think you are right for shield. However round 1 you :
a. Attack once while dual wielding light weapons
b. Free attack with light weapon
c. Stow weapons
d. Take out polearm (free action?)
e. Do extra attack (or haste) with polearm
f.now use bonus polearm action
That is 4 attacks total
Round two:
A. Attack with polearm
b. Bonus action polearm
c. Stow polearm (free action or iffy?)
d. Quick draw dual weapons
e. 2nd attack
f. Free light attack
”Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two Weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.”
No. Stowing the weapons requires your item interaction. You can do two instead of one with dual wielder, yes. But then you’d need a second item interaction to draw the polearm, and you only get one. And the same in reverse. Being able to do two instead of one does not mean you can just swap freely between different weapons.
As I’d said, you could try dropping them to the ground, then maybe if you have a very friendly DM, it could work.
Even then I’d rule picking something up from the ground is not the same as drawing it from a scabbard. So the dual wielder stuff would not apply.
I wonder if, rather than making 2WF no longer require a bonus action, it would be better to make it benefit from extra attacks (in which case you get one attack per main hand attack with a qualifying weapon). Yeah, losing your bonus action to get a single extra attack is a really iffy use of a bonus action in higher tiers, but maybe the fix is to make the bonus action better instead of incorporating it into your main attack.
I have given some edits! Even if you did drop your weapons, I would rule that you cannot use your interaction to bend down and pick one or two up, especially given that one weighs like 20 lbs.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
I totally agree and thank u. I just think this needs to be clear or onednd is going to have so many rules vs raw vs meta gaming again
I believe with 5e RAW, you can draw a weapon as part of an attack. As this is part of the attack action itself, it doesn't use the Object interaction.
I believe the dual wield feat still lets you draw two weapons at once, so it isn't impossible.
The line of events listed in the OP is technically possible by RAW. Which is sort of the issue. In an environment where RAW has to be used, such as AL, it is possible to do things like this. Also, great swords only weigh 6 pounds.
Only 6 pounds is heavy
i swing 2 pound butterfly wing chun swords and it gets tiring. A huge maul or axe would weigh more
anywho i agree hopefully its more clear either way if intentional or bad player interpretation of raw
Oh, I see. So drawing a weapon is part of an attack. Sure. It's still not very strong, given that your heavy weapon might be a, let's say, greatsword and all that you're gaining is extra ability modifier damage a round plus lesser damage on opportunity attacks sometimes. It's ok, I'd allow it for being smart.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
In the end, two weapon fighting would produce the fewest anomalies if "attack with two weapons" just replaced a normal attack. This would make it usable in any situation where you can make an attack (green-flame blade? Sure, go for it) but is ... tricky to balance.
"Draw your weapon as part of an attack" is, specifically, an example of "interact with one object or feature of the environment for free." The full quote is
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
Dual weilder has "You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one" still.
No, drawing your weapon is part of the action used to attack, therefore not using up your single interaction.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
Even then, I don't think this works.
Round one: assume nothing is drawn when combat begins. Your first attack also lets you draw your light weapons. And only with both out can you take the third attack. This looks normal and works fine.
Round two: you need to stow both in order to attack with the polearm. Any additional attack would logically come after the normal attacks are spent. Which means it can't be added to the front of the order. You could stow both light weapons after the first attack, and then draw the polearm, but you aren't making a second attack with those light weapons.
It's a lot of juggling for, in my estimation, something not worth the return on investment. We're talking 1d10 and 1d4, and a bonus action, versus 1d8 and 1d6.
The thing I quoted (quoting again below, bolding for emphasis, with more text) is the exact text from the PHB, and the full source of the rule in question.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
Drawing a weapon (or a pair of them, via Dual Wielding) takes up your single free object interaction for the turn.
No, the bonus actions can be inserted anywhere in your turn.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian