Damage doesn't scale for WS though, and you can't use equipment. Druid's WS is now just a much worse version of a 5e Monk, 2d4+10 damage is pathetic (Primal Savagery is almost the same DPR and you don't have to give up spellcasting!) if you're going the flyby route.
Damage doesn't scale for WS though, and you can't use equipment. Druid's WS is now just a much worse version of a 5e Monk, 2d4+10 damage is pathetic (Primal Savagery is almost the same DPR and you don't have to give up spellcasting!) if you're going the flyby route.
it's still more than 1d8+5 tho, of course, if you did go moon druid, at level 10 you'd instead do (1d4+1d6+10) * 2, or at 17, (1d4+2d6+10) * 2. Given we only have moon druid down right now, we can't be certain if other sub classes will get features that also affect wild shape in other ways.
I keep seeing the comment "no one plays druid" this is vastly different than my experience.
For reference I assisted in running an in store dnd group (2 AL tables 1 free table )as well as play on line with players across the world. Druids seem to be present at 85-95% of the games.
There seems to be less of a presence in Liveplay but not to the point where they are Rarer than other specialized classes.
Can any one support or debunk such claims?
There are a couple of tables of DDB usage, and the Druid is either dead last or 3rd from last in terms of classes used, depending on which you reference.
I'd take it with a pinch of salt because people trialling the site, trialling the game etc will distort those stats and Druids less likely to be used in those circumstances. Still, it's reasonable to conclude that they're not popular.
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Its based on a couple of surveys the WotC took. Some was pulled from DDB, all the active characters being used. From what I understand, other forms of polling and surveys were used as well. For the most part, its something that WotC has admitted in the video and elsewhere before too.
Wild shape absolutely sucks. You lower your AC for a small melee damage boost that doesnt come close to keeping up with martials. All you gain is keen senses until 5 when you finally get a climb speed. Why would you want to be in melee when you have less health and less armor and do less damage than all other front liners. Where is the utility that was the real reason you used wild shape as a non-moon druid. Do you intend druids to go in with this. If so armor needs to be 11+ wis and dex for land and we need to see some damage resistance.
Wild shape unarmed strike needs clarification. It isnt beastial strike so is it just 1+strength mod?
All-in-all great idea and direction absolutely aweful execution.
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The new standardized wild shape is ... completely useless. It's not useful for non-combat problemsolving, and in combat it amounts to "congratulations, you can spend an action to reduce your armor class, do less damage, and be unable to cast spells".
Though I haven't been able to read through all of the stuff about the ability yet, I can't help but agree. The current Druid wasn't broken, and I honestly don't understand why they're trying to make these changes, since they only make Wild Shape less powerful and less cool.
Hopefully playtesters will give a hard no for this. I just don't see what this alteration is trying to accomplish, and Druid must have something really cool in order to make up for such big of a nerf. Yeah, Wild Shape may not have been the Druid's big feature in 1e, but this is 5e now and messing with this feature and not replacing it with anything really doesn't help.
A CR 1 Brown Bear deals an average of 25 or so damage in a turn, if it's attack hits. Admittedly, Druids can only turn into this at level 2. However, not only is 1D8 + Wisdom way weaker than that, but it costs some of your Channel Nature points anyways, so this will make it harder to Wild Shape and use other aspects of that mana pool too.
The purpose of a druid is no longer to tank, the role of the druid has been specialized to field control and AOE damage.
No offense, but waiting to find a clear class identity until level 13, - when you start to get some of the spells you mentioned, - is very much not fun. Also, I don't play Druids but from what I've seen when I'm a Dungeon Master, the class could already do most of this.
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I can understand why they want to change Wild Shape, it's just that what they did doesn't work.
Here's a radical thought: what if Wild Shape was a spell? This lets you balance it like a spell (rather than a ribbon feature for a class) and means there's a simple way of handling "I don't want to focus my build on wild shape": just don't take that spell.
On phone so typing is a pain, but I have to say that Druid is a complete miss in my book.
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
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On phone so typing is a pain, but I have to say that Druid is a complete miss in my book.
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
On phone so typing is a pain, but I have to say that Druid is a complete miss in my book.
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
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I know it's against the popular outlook but seem everyone forgot that druid is a FULL CASTER and should not be an immutable wall of HP.
The point is: a class feature should at least be useful. If something is a major feature of your class, and you simply don't use it because it's terrible, there's something wrong with it.
I know it's against the popular outlook but seem everyone forgot that druid is a FULL CASTER and should not be an immutable wall of HP.
As I see it is a combination of using concentration spells, shapeshifting, and melee fighting when needed with heals.
This is a honest question but that bonus action unarmed strike its also affected by multiattack?
I'm cool with focusing on the full caster aspect, but if you are making wild shape more of a disguise self ability allow them to cast in animal form from the get go. So yeah they just stay a full caster all the time.
If they are going to give up casting to wild shape it better be useful at least.
If going the template route with no spell casting, I'd look towards 3e psions astral construct for how to do it. Give a base template, give a collection of abilities you gain access to, sure level scale some of them like flight, allow the player to slap on proficiency bonus abilities. So like maybe natural armor might be a ability, trip, another, pounce a 3rd, climb a 4th all available at level 1. You get the base template and pick two of those. Level 5 add in flight, grab, multi attack, hide as a bonus action, flyby/moveby attack ,tiny size now your PB is 3 so you choose 3. level 10 add some more etc.Basically all the animal abilities should be given by level 8 or so. Give the moon druid access to unique moves the surpass animal capabilities, other druids sub classes may get access to themed wild shape abilities as well. The level 13 change back to human form I'd say when returning to beast form you can change your set up as well.
I'd trim the wild shape abilities in number by half at least and fill in some non wild shape abilities as well so its not so wild shape focused.
I know it's against the popular outlook but seem everyone forgot that druid is a FULL CASTER and should not be an immutable wall of HP.
As I see it is a combination of using concentration spells, shapeshifting, and melee fighting when needed with heals.
This is a honest question but that bonus action unarmed strike its also affected by multiattack?
If they want druid to lean into being a fullcaster then they shouldn't have made 80% of their class features focused on a shapeshifting feature that is utterly worthless. There are dozens of other things they could have given Druid and just taken out the shapeshifting entirely and given them the Wild Companion at level 1 instead. - ability to create or remove difficult terrain in a 5ft cube as an action. - ability to talk to animals / plants without using a spell - something like the Mold Earth cantrip - ability to regain spellslots when resting in nature. - sets of oath-spells that focus on Flora, Fauna, or Elementalism - ability to magically create a shelter from the natural environment
I can understand why they want to change Wild Shape, it's just that what they did doesn't work.
True. Wild Shape has worked well in my games, and I think you're right that I glossed over some of the mechanic's flaws in my previous post. That being said, the way this new set of features has been implemented doesn't seem great. They gave 8 or so features on an ability they wanted to move away from, and the end result is now that Wild Shape is spread over a bunch of levels, and most versions of it just aren't very cool or strong.
Not only that, but we didn't get anything new for Druid, because the Wild Shape class features took up so much space.
Here's a radical thought: what if Wild Shape was a spell? This lets you balance it like a spell (rather than a ribbon feature for a class) and means there's a simple way of handling "I don't want to focus my build on wild shape": just don't take that spell.
I dunno. Concentration is weird and turning one of the biggest parts of a class into an optional spell just feels kinda weird. This is a cool idea and it would be great if there was other stuff instead of Wild Shape, but it's hard to have an important part of a class be optional, because the players who don't take the spell wouldn't necessarily get anything special instead.
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DRUID IS CONSTITUTION BUILD NOW TO NOT LOSE YOUR CONCENTRATION.
so in wildshape, You retain your personality, memories, ability to speak, and Wild Shape. You lose access to all your other features, such as the ability to cast spells(you can continue to concentrate on one)
so your Incentivized to not be a martial YOU ARE A PRIEST GROUP ill explain below
your a concentration caster now, you use wildshape alternating forms, to cast concentration spells starting at lv13. You can cast wilshape hold concentration return to human to cast non concentration spell return to wildshape KEEP DISTANCE to hold concentration or if you started wildshape turn human cast concentration spell return to wildshape and hold concentration. YOU TURN NATURE VS YOUR ENEMIES AND HEAL ALLIES 7 Regenerate 7 Reverse Gravity 8 Animal Shapes 8 Control Weather 8 Earthquake 8 Tsunami 9 Shapechange And you can cast abjuration spell in wildshape ontop that dont take your concentration away like mass healing word or mass cure wounds.
TINY CRITTER ALLOWS YOU TO GET COVER BEHIND ALLY OR HIDE WITH DEX STEALTH.
The purpose of a druid is no longer to tank, the role of the druid has been specialized to field control and AOE damage.
Exactly! People that think the role of Druid is to tank are missing out on the long history of the Druid being the supplemental and battlefield control spell caster that it has long been. Going back to 2nd ed, Wild Shape worked much like this, and it worked GREAT!
Now, my 20th level Druid with 177 hit points can take the shape of an owlbear or tiny frog with a 22 strength and 22 dexterity giving it +12 to initiative while casting spells at the enemy or healing his friends.
For those that didn't know, Jeremy said that when you Wild Shape, it is YOU taking a new form, so your feats would carry over. In the above initiative case, my character has Alert. Bad Ass.
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Damage doesn't scale for WS though, and you can't use equipment. Druid's WS is now just a much worse version of a 5e Monk, 2d4+10 damage is pathetic (Primal Savagery is almost the same DPR and you don't have to give up spellcasting!) if you're going the flyby route.
it's still more than 1d8+5 tho, of course, if you did go moon druid, at level 10 you'd instead do (1d4+1d6+10) * 2, or at 17, (1d4+2d6+10) * 2. Given we only have moon druid down right now, we can't be certain if other sub classes will get features that also affect wild shape in other ways.
There are a couple of tables of DDB usage, and the Druid is either dead last or 3rd from last in terms of classes used, depending on which you reference.
I'd take it with a pinch of salt because people trialling the site, trialling the game etc will distort those stats and Druids less likely to be used in those circumstances. Still, it's reasonable to conclude that they're not popular.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Its based on a couple of surveys the WotC took. Some was pulled from DDB, all the active characters being used. From what I understand, other forms of polling and surveys were used as well. For the most part, its something that WotC has admitted in the video and elsewhere before too.
Wild shape absolutely sucks. You lower your AC for a small melee damage boost that doesnt come close to keeping up with martials. All you gain is keen senses until 5 when you finally get a climb speed. Why would you want to be in melee when you have less health and less armor and do less damage than all other front liners. Where is the utility that was the real reason you used wild shape as a non-moon druid. Do you intend druids to go in with this. If so armor needs to be 11+ wis and dex for land and we need to see some damage resistance.
Wild shape unarmed strike needs clarification. It isnt beastial strike so is it just 1+strength mod?
All-in-all great idea and direction absolutely aweful execution.
I think it's actually an ability that can used while not in wild shape, but I agree it's super vague. Note that it can be used for grapple or trip.
The other confusing bit is the elemental damage.
You pick a type when you transform. Fine. But then:
So, is the type of damage I deal dictated by the damage type I chose when I chose my Wildshape form, or when I hit?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Though I haven't been able to read through all of the stuff about the ability yet, I can't help but agree. The current Druid wasn't broken, and I honestly don't understand why they're trying to make these changes, since they only make Wild Shape less powerful and less cool.
Hopefully playtesters will give a hard no for this. I just don't see what this alteration is trying to accomplish, and Druid must have something really cool in order to make up for such big of a nerf. Yeah, Wild Shape may not have been the Druid's big feature in 1e, but this is 5e now and messing with this feature and not replacing it with anything really doesn't help.
A CR 1 Brown Bear deals an average of 25 or so damage in a turn, if it's attack hits. Admittedly, Druids can only turn into this at level 2. However, not only is 1D8 + Wisdom way weaker than that, but it costs some of your Channel Nature points anyways, so this will make it harder to Wild Shape and use other aspects of that mana pool too.
No offense, but waiting to find a clear class identity until level 13, - when you start to get some of the spells you mentioned, - is very much not fun. Also, I don't play Druids but from what I've seen when I'm a Dungeon Master, the class could already do most of this.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I can understand why they want to change Wild Shape, it's just that what they did doesn't work.
Here's a radical thought: what if Wild Shape was a spell? This lets you balance it like a spell (rather than a ribbon feature for a class) and means there's a simple way of handling "I don't want to focus my build on wild shape": just don't take that spell.
On phone so typing is a pain, but I have to say that Druid is a complete miss in my book.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have to agree.
Most things about 1D&D I've either liked, thought there were some aspects that also had a few bits I was less keen on, or I just wasn't bothered by one way or the other. The Druid I just don't like - almost every aspect of the changes have been a "nope" from me. If they keep the changes, I'll be sticking with 5e Druids.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I know it's against the popular outlook but seem everyone forgot that druid is a FULL CASTER and should not be an immutable wall of HP.
As I see it is a combination of using concentration spells, shapeshifting, and melee fighting when needed with heals.
This is a honest question but that bonus action unarmed strike its also affected by multiattack?
The point is: a class feature should at least be useful. If something is a major feature of your class, and you simply don't use it because it's terrible, there's something wrong with it.
That is indeed true; I would like to test it and play it on a few levels to get the natural feeling of it.
I'm cool with focusing on the full caster aspect, but if you are making wild shape more of a disguise self ability allow them to cast in animal form from the get go. So yeah they just stay a full caster all the time.
If they are going to give up casting to wild shape it better be useful at least.
If going the template route with no spell casting, I'd look towards 3e psions astral construct for how to do it. Give a base template, give a collection of abilities you gain access to, sure level scale some of them like flight, allow the player to slap on proficiency bonus abilities. So like maybe natural armor might be a ability, trip, another, pounce a 3rd, climb a 4th all available at level 1. You get the base template and pick two of those. Level 5 add in flight, grab, multi attack, hide as a bonus action, flyby/moveby attack ,tiny size now your PB is 3 so you choose 3. level 10 add some more etc.Basically all the animal abilities should be given by level 8 or so. Give the moon druid access to unique moves the surpass animal capabilities, other druids sub classes may get access to themed wild shape abilities as well. The level 13 change back to human form I'd say when returning to beast form you can change your set up as well.
I'd trim the wild shape abilities in number by half at least and fill in some non wild shape abilities as well so its not so wild shape focused.
If they want druid to lean into being a fullcaster then they shouldn't have made 80% of their class features focused on a shapeshifting feature that is utterly worthless. There are dozens of other things they could have given Druid and just taken out the shapeshifting entirely and given them the Wild Companion at level 1 instead.
- ability to create or remove difficult terrain in a 5ft cube as an action.
- ability to talk to animals / plants without using a spell
- something like the Mold Earth cantrip
- ability to regain spellslots when resting in nature.
- sets of oath-spells that focus on Flora, Fauna, or Elementalism
- ability to magically create a shelter from the natural environment
etc...
True. Wild Shape has worked well in my games, and I think you're right that I glossed over some of the mechanic's flaws in my previous post. That being said, the way this new set of features has been implemented doesn't seem great. They gave 8 or so features on an ability they wanted to move away from, and the end result is now that Wild Shape is spread over a bunch of levels, and most versions of it just aren't very cool or strong.
Not only that, but we didn't get anything new for Druid, because the Wild Shape class features took up so much space.
I dunno. Concentration is weird and turning one of the biggest parts of a class into an optional spell just feels kinda weird. This is a cool idea and it would be great if there was other stuff instead of Wild Shape, but it's hard to have an important part of a class be optional, because the players who don't take the spell wouldn't necessarily get anything special instead.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Exactly! People that think the role of Druid is to tank are missing out on the long history of the Druid being the supplemental and battlefield control spell caster that it has long been. Going back to 2nd ed, Wild Shape worked much like this, and it worked GREAT!
Now, my 20th level Druid with 177 hit points can take the shape of an owlbear or tiny frog with a 22 strength and 22 dexterity giving it +12 to initiative while casting spells at the enemy or healing his friends.
For those that didn't know, Jeremy said that when you Wild Shape, it is YOU taking a new form, so your feats would carry over. In the above initiative case, my character has Alert. Bad Ass.