If they move back towards using monster stats blocks they at least need to create an official list of allowed shapes. Or perhaps a list of allowed features from shapes to keep players from shifting into specialized shapes from adventures that have features like damage resistances and multiple heads granting advantage on saves. Combo that with the removal of the separate HP pool (possibly replaced with some temp HP for moon druid subclass when you shift) and that could work to curb the worst imbalances like having access to a CR 0 shape at level 2 that gives you 52 extra HP.
Honestly, I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. If it's that much of a boost in combat compared to its "peers" (according to CR), then the problem is their CR rating. They should be errata'd to have a higher CR, and review their process for assigning CRs.
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Am I the only one who likes this iteration of the Druid?
Let's be honest, Circle of the Moon Druid needed to be hit with the nerfbat *hard.*
Most of the criticism seems to me to be coming from the place of the Druid having gotten to have its cake and eat it, too. I always felt that the Druid's armour restriction leading to a generally lower AC was part of the trade-off and, to some extent, balanced the class's otherwise overpowered features. Needless to say, even if they officially lift the "no metal armour" rule, no Druid at my table will ever be permitted anything beyond leather, unless they maybe re-add wood or bone lamellar back in from 2e.
I'm also completely fine with Wildshape being toned down significantly like this; even in the shape of a bear, it's wrong for the Druid to be able to be a better front-line combatant than the Fighter. I'd also like to see the Heat Metal spell removed from the Primal spell list; it's thematically wrong for the Druid to wield power over metal like that. Taking a cue from folklore, in which "cold iron" was often the bane of all things belonging to the primal world, and a charm against magic (horseshoes over the door, etc.), I'd like to see this idea carried into D&D with iron being absolute anathema to druids, fae, etc.
All the magic-using classes could stand to be toned down a bit, and I hope the trend continues.
I'd argue it is wrong for the Moon Druid to be a worse front liner than a bard or a rogue. Which in this UA is the case. Moon Druid is now a completely non-functional class, it is much much worse than 5e Spore Druid, and 5e Spore Druid is already bad.
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.
Sorry to double post, but you've shared a lot of interesting thoughts and I wanted to respond.
For one, I don't disagree that most Druids aren't too powerful. There is a reason why data shows that Circle of the Moon is more played than Circle of Land, despite the fact that the latter is free and the former isn't. Circle of the Land isn't good at all, and I DMed for a Druid who was that subclass and they didn't really feel very strong at all.
Honestly, I agree that a lot of how powerful Druid is depends on the same class, and that the base class is especially weak when people don't use Wild Shape as their main feature. That being said, Wild Shape might need to be weakened a bit in order to make more room for powerful features and abilities that allow you to play a strong Druid who doesn't solely rely on that feature.
TBH, If the next version of the UA got rid of WS completely (and only left the Wild Familiar) and replaced everything else with other features I would prefer it over the current version of druid. By level 7 when druid gets swimming forms for WS, they can already cast Conjure Animals and summon better animals than anything they can WS into - I'd rather have the Wizard's Arcane Recovery + Wild Familar and no other class features, than the current WS, because an extra casting of Conjure Animals or Polymorph is better than what you can get out of WS.
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.
Sorry to double post, but you've shared a lot of interesting thoughts and I wanted to respond.
For one, I don't disagree that most Druids aren't too powerful. There is a reason why data shows that Circle of the Moon is more played than Circle of Land, despite the fact that the latter is free and the former isn't. Circle of the Land isn't good at all, and I DMed for a Druid who was that subclass and they didn't really feel very strong at all.
Honestly, I agree that a lot of how powerful Druid is depends on the same class, and that the base class is especially weak when people don't use Wild Shape as their main feature. That being said, Wild Shape might need to be weakened a bit in order to make more room for powerful features and abilities that allow you to play a strong Druid who doesn't solely rely on that feature.
TBH, If the next version of the UA got rid of WS completely (and only left the Wild Familiar) and replaced everything else with other features I would prefer it over the current version of druid. By level 7 when druid gets swimming forms for WS, they can already cast Conjure Animals and summon better animals than anything they can WS into - I'd rather have the Wizard's Arcane Recovery + Wild Familar and no other class features, than the current WS, because an extra casting of Conjure Animals or Polymorph is better than what you can get out of WS.
Why not just be a Wizard then? You get a few bonus features as well...
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Am I the only one who likes this iteration of the Druid?
Let's be honest, Circle of the Moon Druid needed to be hit with the nerfbat *hard.*
Most of the criticism seems to me to be coming from the place of the Druid having gotten to have its cake and eat it, too. I always felt that the Druid's armour restriction leading to a generally lower AC was part of the trade-off and, to some extent, balanced the class's otherwise overpowered features. Needless to say, even if they officially lift the "no metal armour" rule, no Druid at my table will ever be permitted anything beyond leather, unless they maybe re-add wood or bone lamellar back in from 2e.
I'm also completely fine with Wildshape being toned down significantly like this; even in the shape of a bear, it's wrong for the Druid to be able to be a better front-line combatant than the Fighter. I'd also like to see the Heat Metal spell removed from the Primal spell list; it's thematically wrong for the Druid to wield power over metal like that. Taking a cue from folklore, in which "cold iron" was often the bane of all things belonging to the primal world, and a charm against magic (horseshoes over the door, etc.), I'd like to see this idea carried into D&D with iron being absolute anathema to druids, fae, etc.
All the magic-using classes could stand to be toned down a bit, and I hope the trend continues.
What are the class's over powered features?
Their spellcasting is much worse than either a Wizard or Sorcerer (arguably worse than a Cleric's), and Wildshape is nothing but utility to non-Moon Druids. The base druid subclass only shines as a summoner, support & out-of-combat utility caster. In combat their battlefield control is so-so better than a Cleric but worse than a Bard, Wizard, or Sorcerer, their spell damage is worse than a Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock, their AC & tanking is only slightly above that of a Bard or Warlock and below that of Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards, their out-of-combat utility casting is about the same as a Wizard but 5e Wildshape boosts them here giving them much more on-demand flexibility than a Wizard in terms of utility.
The class only has 5 features : Spellcasting that is worse than a Wizard or Sorcerer, Wildshape that is purely utility b/c of low AC & hitpoints of baseline WS forms, Anti-aging ribbon feature, ability to cast spells in WS which only moondruids ever use, unlimited WS (which again is purely utility for non-Moon Druids). Which one of these it OP?
The Druid base class desperately needs new features that support alternative play-styles other than WS - bards and clerics both get lots of other class features and play the same role as casters as the Druid does, so I don't know why Druid has been given such a short-end-of-the-stick in terms of class features. Those would give the caster-focused subclasses something to build on so they are more viable. Combat Wildshapes needs a total overhaul, but regular WS needs to still function as a utility feature for casting-focused druids.
Sorry to double post, but you've shared a lot of interesting thoughts and I wanted to respond.
For one, I don't disagree that most Druids aren't too powerful. There is a reason why data shows that Circle of the Moon is more played than Circle of Land, despite the fact that the latter is free and the former isn't. Circle of the Land isn't good at all, and I DMed for a Druid who was that subclass and they didn't really feel very strong at all.
Honestly, I agree that a lot of how powerful Druid is depends on the same class, and that the base class is especially weak when people don't use Wild Shape as their main feature. That being said, Wild Shape might need to be weakened a bit in order to make more room for powerful features and abilities that allow you to play a strong Druid who doesn't solely rely on that feature.
TBH, If the next version of the UA got rid of WS completely (and only left the Wild Familiar) and replaced everything else with other features I would prefer it over the current version of druid. By level 7 when druid gets swimming forms for WS, they can already cast Conjure Animals and summon better animals than anything they can WS into - I'd rather have the Wizard's Arcane Recovery + Wild Familar and no other class features, than the current WS, because an extra casting of Conjure Animals or Polymorph is better than what you can get out of WS.
Why not just be a Wizard then? You get a few bonus features as well...
That is one reason why Druid is not very frequently played as a class. But Druid doesn't play like a Wizard at all, the primal spell list is totally different from the arcane spell list which leads to a very different playstyle. Druid is all about using the environment around you to your advantage, and using different types of conjured creatures to suit the situation. See there are only about 2 spells on the druid spell list that are always useful: Healing Word & Faerie Fire, everything else is about figuring what to use, where and when. You've got no universally good blasting spell like Fireball, or universally good battlefield control like Hypnotic Pattern. See Druid is the only class where your choice of actions can depend on whether a green blob on the map is a shrub or if it is a tree, or whether the bandits make their camp on dirt or on rock, or whether some tents are made out of leather or linen.
Here let me give you an example: The level 5 party are attacking a bandit camp. optimal Wizard options: Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball regardless of the situation. optimal Druid options: if the bandits are camping on a grassy field : Plant Growth followed by Call Lightning. if the bandits are camping on stone : Spike Growth if the bandits are in a cave with a narrow entrance way : Moonbeam + Erupting Earth if the bandits have flammable tents : Flaming Sphere. if the bandits have a captain that wears metal armour : Heat Metal if the bandits are all spread out : Conjure Animals
That is one reason why Druid is not very frequently played as a class. But Druid doesn't play like a Wizard at all, the primal spell list is totally different from the arcane spell list which leads to a very different playstyle. Druid is all about using the environment around you to your advantage, and using different types of conjured creatures to suit the situation. See there are only about 2 spells on the druid spell list that are always useful: Healing Word & Faerie Fire, everything else is about figuring what to use, where and when. You've got no universally good blasting spell like Fireball, or universally good battlefield control like Hypnotic Pattern. See Druid is the only class where your choice of actions can depend on whether a green blob on the map is a shrub or if it is a tree, or whether the bandits make their camp on dirt or on rock, or whether some tents are made out of leather or linen.
Here let me give you an example: The level 5 party are attacking a bandit camp. optimal Wizard options: Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball regardless of the situation. optimal Druid options: if the bandits are camping on a grassy field : Plant Growth followed by Call Lightning. if the bandits are camping on stone : Spike Growth if the bandits are in a cave with a narrow entrance way : Moonbeam + Erupting Earth if the bandits have flammable tents : Flaming Sphere. if the bandits have a captain that wears metal armour : Heat Metal if the bandits are all spread out : Conjure Animals
But Druid doesn't play like a Wizard at all, the primal spell list is totally different from the arcane spell list which leads to a very different playstyle. Druid is all about using the environment around you to your advantage, and using different types of conjured creatures to suit the situation.
I don't disagree, but - in 5e at least - Druids also have a lot of utility or defensive spells that Wizard may or may not have, such as Pass Without Trace, Detect magic, Cure wounds, Darkvision, Guidance, Absorb Elements, and Dispel Magic, and Revivify. Anyways, I still want a version of Wild Shape in the base class for Druid. Even if it just works as utility, then the feature is still too good to give up completely.
The thing that I want Druid to get more of though is a combination of naturey stuff and a few of the Wizard's features. If WS is weakened in order to make room for something and I was forced to pick between only one of these themes, then I would have to choose nature. That concept is much more appealing to me and the reason it isn't as cool and mechanically powerful is because this part of the class has had to share room with other themes, and it has suffered as a result.
If more attention was spent on making the nature part of Druid work, then the class wouldn't need to be a Druid to be cool and enjoyable.
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I should say. I don't want a Druid with no Wildshape, but unless Wildshape is useful for reinforcing the playstyle of Druid (which the current UA one does not) then I'd rather it be replaced with something else that does reinforce an aspect of the Druid playstyle. If the designers don't want Wildshape to be useful then they should at least replace it with something that is useful. IMO even giving the base Druid class both 5e Wildshape (for those who like shapeshifting) and Arcane Recovery (for those who like nature casting) and a suped-up version of Control Weather as high level class feature (for those who like the Wrath-of-nature / master of elements fantasy) would not make them OP.
I should say. I don't want a Druid with no Wildshape, but unless Wildshape is useful for reinforcing the playstyle of Druid (which the current UA one does not) then I'd rather it be replaced with something else that does reinforce an aspect of the Druid playstyle. If the designers don't want Wildshape to be useful then they should at least replace it with something that is useful. IMO even giving the base Druid class both 5e Wildshape (for those who like shapeshifting) and Arcane Recovery (for those who like nature casting) and a suped-up version of Control Weather as high level class feature (for those who like the Wrath-of-nature / master of elements fantasy) would not make them OP.
I think this is sorta getting at why I am torn about this UA druid, it feels like they heavily pushed wildshape as a general druid feature but not quite enough for it to actually be useful.. Meanwhile the moondruid doesn't get to shine.
I think the best solution is to have wildshape be a smaller thing for most druids so that they can focus on being casters and then really give it some weight for the moon druid.. RIght now everyone is just awkwardly in-between.
I should say. I don't want a Druid with no Wildshape, but unless Wildshape is useful for reinforcing the playstyle of Druid (which the current UA one does not) then I'd rather it be replaced with something else that does reinforce an aspect of the Druid playstyle. If the designers don't want Wildshape to be useful then they should at least replace it with something that is useful.
Fair. Hopefully Wild Shape can still be useful and especially good for utility, just not as problematic of an ability as it is now. Honestly, I think Wild Shape should be scaled down so that other cool features should be added, but I also believe that it shouldn't be worthless, and still should be one of the more important parts of the Druid class.
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If WotC was concerned that the 2014 Moon Druid was too powerful with those extra hit points (or if DM’s felt this way, as well) they already corrected the problem by using templates. You can actually control how much “extra” HP the wildshape has using these templates. Having you use your own HP goes a little too far. Temp HP can be used to span the gap so you have only a few at Tier 1, but scales as you level. And the fact that as written there is nothing to knock you out if wildshape (your form is reduced to zero and you revert, like in 5E) a small amount of THP would be useful. Or if you want to be able to be knocked out of wildshape like in 5E you can give more THP but it will be consistent, and easier to balance because of the template
i just dont like the thp thing as it cant be healed which kindda makes the point of healing while in ws (moon druid) pointless
I understand. But I think WotC decided to go with the “use your own HP” because 5E wildshape could give too much in the way of extra HP depending on the form you chose.
You don’t lose WS anymore. There is no “when your form drops to zero you revert to your normal form” so you can keep in your wildshape and cast healing spells (abjuration) instructions of healing the form so you don’t lose it.
And THP gives more control on how the forms are balanced
i think you can still balance by giving normal hp using templates like they seem to want to (im not opposed to them in fact i use them in my homebrew wildshape stuff) you can limit how much hp to give the druid. i currently use 5+(2*druid level) for normal druid or 5+(5*druid level) for moon druid means that for non moon druid there hp will be 9-40 were moon druid will be 15-100 going from level 2-20 (now that ws is at level 1 the lower hp limits will be slightly lower and higher hp may need to be tweaked now there sort of more wildshapes depending how often you can rest but that can be debated
i think you can still balance by giving normal hp using templates like they seem to want to (im not opposed to them in fact i use them in my homebrew wildshape stuff) you can limit how much hp to give the druid. i currently use 5+(2*druid level) for normal druid or 5+(5*druid level) for moon druid means that for non moon druid there hp will be 9-40 were moon druid will be 15-100 going from level 2-20 (now that ws is at level 1 the lower hp limits will be slightly lower and higher hp may need to be tweaked now there sort of more wildshapes depending how often you can rest but that can be debated
That's still far too many. Take a level 5 moon druid for a base. Give them 2 short rests a day and that's 120 free HP above and beyond their base 35ish HP. It's also over double (approaching triple) the HP of your fellow front liners. To give the player that many HP worth of recovery via other means you'd need to spend all or close to all of your spells on healing. You can't have one class that can survive on the front line spending a resource that's renewed on a short rest while everyone else needs to spend resources that require a long rest to get back (spells and hit dice) .
thats just what my group use at the moment so its not too different than using a beast form (for the party being level 16 it would give the druid 85 hp per transformation which is the low end of beast hp for that cr group. obviously can be reblanced if its still considered op (altho its not too bad considering a moon druid is supposed to be more combat orentated and the poop ac means ws doesnt last longer than 2 rounds max usually drops during the 1st round. our monk, barbarian and paladin still survive longer and deal more damage
i think you can still balance by giving normal hp using templates like they seem to want to (im not opposed to them in fact i use them in my homebrew wildshape stuff) you can limit how much hp to give the druid. i currently use 5+(2*druid level) for normal druid or 5+(5*druid level) for moon druid means that for non moon druid there hp will be 9-40 were moon druid will be 15-100 going from level 2-20 (now that ws is at level 1 the lower hp limits will be slightly lower and higher hp may need to be tweaked now there sort of more wildshapes depending how often you can rest but that can be debated
That's still far too many. Take a level 5 moon druid for a base. Give them 2 short rests a day and that's 120 free HP above and beyond their base 35ish HP. It's also over double (approaching triple) the HP of your fellow front liners. To give the player that many HP worth of recovery via other means you'd need to spend all or close to all of your spells on healing. You can't have one class that can survive on the front line spending a resource that's renewed on a short rest while everyone else needs to spend resources that require a long rest to get back (spells and hit dice) .
It's about the same as a Barbarian using Rage, since resistance effectively doubles their HP. Considering that WS has a lower AC and lower damage than a Barbarian that seems reasonable. See when considering survivability you can't look at one thing in isolation. Survivability depends on HP vs Damage Taken, at level 5 Druid WS AC is 14 (using the UA), using the CR table that would mean 5+5*Druid level HP = 1 round of survivability in combat vs a CR 5 enemy. Compare that to a Fighter with AC 18 they get 2 rounds of survivability vs the same enemy, or a Barbarian (AC 16) who gets almost 4 rounds of survivability against that same CR 5 enemy.
PS also most games only have a single SR, in which case the moon druid is closer to a fighter in terms of survivability.
Considering that in a previous UA they took one of the only unique spells that increased your max HP, Aid, and changed it to Temp HP, I don't think that WotC will want to make the template increase your Max HP by any size pool. So I think, if anything, they would go for Temp HP.
What would you think about Wisdom Modifier + 1 THP/druid level as the base and Wisdom Modifier + 3 THP/druid level for Moon Druids? That would give the level 1 druid around 4 THP (assuming 16 WIS at level 1). At 3rd level Druids would have around 6 THP and Moon 9 THP. 10th level (assuming WIS increases at 4 and 8) 15 THP/35 THP. 20th level 26 THP (20th level gives +2 to a stat now so 22 WIS) and 66 THP.
I don't think that is too much, but I'm not a designer so there is that.
Edit: sure, you could burn through those 66 THP in one turn at 20th level, but it's a buffer and you would still stay in your WS form even when it's gone.
i think you can still balance by giving normal hp using templates like they seem to want to (im not opposed to them in fact i use them in my homebrew wildshape stuff) you can limit how much hp to give the druid. i currently use 5+(2*druid level) for normal druid or 5+(5*druid level) for moon druid means that for non moon druid there hp will be 9-40 were moon druid will be 15-100 going from level 2-20 (now that ws is at level 1 the lower hp limits will be slightly lower and higher hp may need to be tweaked now there sort of more wildshapes depending how often you can rest but that can be debated
That's still far too many. Take a level 5 moon druid for a base. Give them 2 short rests a day and that's 120 free HP above and beyond their base 35ish HP. It's also over double (approaching triple) the HP of your fellow front liners. To give the player that many HP worth of recovery via other means you'd need to spend all or close to all of your spells on healing. You can't have one class that can survive on the front line spending a resource that's renewed on a short rest while everyone else needs to spend resources that require a long rest to get back (spells and hit dice) .
It's about the same as a Barbarian using Rage, since resistance effectively doubles their HP. Considering that WS has a lower AC and lower damage than a Barbarian that seems reasonable. See when considering survivability you can't look at one thing in isolation. Survivability depends on HP vs Damage Taken, at level 5 Druid WS AC is 14 (using the UA), using the CR table that would mean 5+5*Druid level HP = 1 round of survivability in combat vs a CR 5 enemy. Compare that to a Fighter with AC 18 they get 2 rounds of survivability vs the same enemy, or a Barbarian (AC 16) who gets almost 4 rounds of survivability against that same CR 5 enemy.
PS also most games only have a single SR, in which case the moon druid is closer to a fighter in terms of survivability.
I ran the math for a fight against a Bulette as a representative CR5.
Against an AC 14 opponent it will average 22.3 DPR with an average of 30 damage per hit. That's an average of 4.2-4.5 (a little variation here based on the AC of the druid out of wild shape) rounds to drop the druid to 0 HP on their main HP pool with two wild shapes up.
Against the fighter with 49 HP and 18 AC it averages 16.3 DPR which means it's 3.006 rounds to drop the fighter to 0 HP.
Against the barbarian with 59 HP and 16 AC it's 19.3 DPR but half that to 9.65 so it's 6.11 rounds to drop to 0 HP.
Barbarian wins in this case with the druid coming second. But what if the damage type is not physical? 6.11 drops to 3.05 rounds now the druid out tanks both frontline tanks while also being a full caster. In either scenario the fighter is left wondering why they are the worst at soaking damage. Repeat the above with the new Barkskin running on the druid regenerating 7 HP a round and they come close to the barbarian in tanking ability against physical damage too.
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Honestly, I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. If it's that much of a boost in combat compared to its "peers" (according to CR), then the problem is their CR rating. They should be errata'd to have a higher CR, and review their process for assigning CRs.
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I'd argue it is wrong for the Moon Druid to be a worse front liner than a bard or a rogue. Which in this UA is the case. Moon Druid is now a completely non-functional class, it is much much worse than 5e Spore Druid, and 5e Spore Druid is already bad.
TBH, If the next version of the UA got rid of WS completely (and only left the Wild Familiar) and replaced everything else with other features I would prefer it over the current version of druid. By level 7 when druid gets swimming forms for WS, they can already cast Conjure Animals and summon better animals than anything they can WS into - I'd rather have the Wizard's Arcane Recovery + Wild Familar and no other class features, than the current WS, because an extra casting of Conjure Animals or Polymorph is better than what you can get out of WS.
Why not just be a Wizard then? You get a few bonus features as well...
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What are the class's over powered features?
Their spellcasting is much worse than either a Wizard or Sorcerer (arguably worse than a Cleric's), and Wildshape is nothing but utility to non-Moon Druids. The base druid subclass only shines as a summoner, support & out-of-combat utility caster. In combat their battlefield control is so-so better than a Cleric but worse than a Bard, Wizard, or Sorcerer, their spell damage is worse than a Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock, their AC & tanking is only slightly above that of a Bard or Warlock and below that of Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards, their out-of-combat utility casting is about the same as a Wizard but 5e Wildshape boosts them here giving them much more on-demand flexibility than a Wizard in terms of utility.
The class only has 5 features : Spellcasting that is worse than a Wizard or Sorcerer, Wildshape that is purely utility b/c of low AC & hitpoints of baseline WS forms, Anti-aging ribbon feature, ability to cast spells in WS which only moondruids ever use, unlimited WS (which again is purely utility for non-Moon Druids). Which one of these it OP?
That is one reason why Druid is not very frequently played as a class. But Druid doesn't play like a Wizard at all, the primal spell list is totally different from the arcane spell list which leads to a very different playstyle. Druid is all about using the environment around you to your advantage, and using different types of conjured creatures to suit the situation. See there are only about 2 spells on the druid spell list that are always useful: Healing Word & Faerie Fire, everything else is about figuring what to use, where and when. You've got no universally good blasting spell like Fireball, or universally good battlefield control like Hypnotic Pattern. See Druid is the only class where your choice of actions can depend on whether a green blob on the map is a shrub or if it is a tree, or whether the bandits make their camp on dirt or on rock, or whether some tents are made out of leather or linen.
Here let me give you an example: The level 5 party are attacking a bandit camp.
optimal Wizard options: Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball regardless of the situation.
optimal Druid options:
if the bandits are camping on a grassy field : Plant Growth followed by Call Lightning.
if the bandits are camping on stone : Spike Growth
if the bandits are in a cave with a narrow entrance way : Moonbeam + Erupting Earth
if the bandits have flammable tents : Flaming Sphere.
if the bandits have a captain that wears metal armour : Heat Metal
if the bandits are all spread out : Conjure Animals
Finally, someone who gets it!
I don't disagree, but - in 5e at least - Druids also have a lot of utility or defensive spells that Wizard may or may not have, such as Pass Without Trace, Detect magic, Cure wounds, Darkvision, Guidance, Absorb Elements, and Dispel Magic, and Revivify. Anyways, I still want a version of Wild Shape in the base class for Druid. Even if it just works as utility, then the feature is still too good to give up completely.
The thing that I want Druid to get more of though is a combination of naturey stuff and a few of the Wizard's features. If WS is weakened in order to make room for something and I was forced to pick between only one of these themes, then I would have to choose nature. That concept is much more appealing to me and the reason it isn't as cool and mechanically powerful is because this part of the class has had to share room with other themes, and it has suffered as a result.
If more attention was spent on making the nature part of Druid work, then the class wouldn't need to be a Druid to be cool and enjoyable.
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HERE.I should say. I don't want a Druid with no Wildshape, but unless Wildshape is useful for reinforcing the playstyle of Druid (which the current UA one does not) then I'd rather it be replaced with something else that does reinforce an aspect of the Druid playstyle. If the designers don't want Wildshape to be useful then they should at least replace it with something that is useful. IMO even giving the base Druid class both 5e Wildshape (for those who like shapeshifting) and Arcane Recovery (for those who like nature casting) and a suped-up version of Control Weather as high level class feature (for those who like the Wrath-of-nature / master of elements fantasy) would not make them OP.
I think this is sorta getting at why I am torn about this UA druid, it feels like they heavily pushed wildshape as a general druid feature but not quite enough for it to actually be useful.. Meanwhile the moondruid doesn't get to shine.
I think the best solution is to have wildshape be a smaller thing for most druids so that they can focus on being casters and then really give it some weight for the moon druid.. RIght now everyone is just awkwardly in-between.
Fair. Hopefully Wild Shape can still be useful and especially good for utility, just not as problematic of an ability as it is now. Honestly, I think Wild Shape should be scaled down so that other cool features should be added, but I also believe that it shouldn't be worthless, and still should be one of the more important parts of the Druid class.
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HERE.Haven’t had a chance to read all the thread but:
If WotC was concerned that the 2014 Moon Druid was too powerful with those extra hit points (or if DM’s felt this way, as well) they already corrected the problem by using templates. You can actually control how much “extra” HP the wildshape has using these templates. Having you use your own HP goes a little too far. Temp HP can be used to span the gap so you have only a few at Tier 1, but scales as you level. And the fact that as written there is nothing to knock you out if wildshape (your form is reduced to zero and you revert, like in 5E) a small amount of THP would be useful. Or if you want to be able to be knocked out of wildshape like in 5E you can give more THP but it will be consistent, and easier to balance because of the template
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i just dont like the thp thing as it cant be healed which kindda makes the point of healing while in ws (moon druid) pointless
I understand. But I think WotC decided to go with the “use your own HP” because 5E wildshape could give too much in the way of extra HP depending on the form you chose.
You don’t lose WS anymore. There is no “when your form drops to zero you revert to your normal form” so you can keep in your wildshape and cast healing spells (abjuration) instructions of healing the form so you don’t lose it.
And THP gives more control on how the forms are balanced
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i think you can still balance by giving normal hp using templates like they seem to want to (im not opposed to them in fact i use them in my homebrew wildshape stuff) you can limit how much hp to give the druid. i currently use 5+(2*druid level) for normal druid or 5+(5*druid level) for moon druid means that for non moon druid there hp will be 9-40 were moon druid will be 15-100 going from level 2-20 (now that ws is at level 1 the lower hp limits will be slightly lower and higher hp may need to be tweaked now there sort of more wildshapes depending how often you can rest but that can be debated
That's still far too many. Take a level 5 moon druid for a base. Give them 2 short rests a day and that's 120 free HP above and beyond their base 35ish HP. It's also over double (approaching triple) the HP of your fellow front liners. To give the player that many HP worth of recovery via other means you'd need to spend all or close to all of your spells on healing. You can't have one class that can survive on the front line spending a resource that's renewed on a short rest while everyone else needs to spend resources that require a long rest to get back (spells and hit dice) .
thats just what my group use at the moment so its not too different than using a beast form (for the party being level 16 it would give the druid 85 hp per transformation which is the low end of beast hp for that cr group. obviously can be reblanced if its still considered op (altho its not too bad considering a moon druid is supposed to be more combat orentated and the poop ac means ws doesnt last longer than 2 rounds max usually drops during the 1st round. our monk, barbarian and paladin still survive longer and deal more damage
It's about the same as a Barbarian using Rage, since resistance effectively doubles their HP. Considering that WS has a lower AC and lower damage than a Barbarian that seems reasonable. See when considering survivability you can't look at one thing in isolation. Survivability depends on HP vs Damage Taken, at level 5 Druid WS AC is 14 (using the UA), using the CR table that would mean 5+5*Druid level HP = 1 round of survivability in combat vs a CR 5 enemy. Compare that to a Fighter with AC 18 they get 2 rounds of survivability vs the same enemy, or a Barbarian (AC 16) who gets almost 4 rounds of survivability against that same CR 5 enemy.
PS also most games only have a single SR, in which case the moon druid is closer to a fighter in terms of survivability.
Considering that in a previous UA they took one of the only unique spells that increased your max HP, Aid, and changed it to Temp HP, I don't think that WotC will want to make the template increase your Max HP by any size pool. So I think, if anything, they would go for Temp HP.
What would you think about Wisdom Modifier + 1 THP/druid level as the base and Wisdom Modifier + 3 THP/druid level for Moon Druids? That would give the level 1 druid around 4 THP (assuming 16 WIS at level 1). At 3rd level Druids would have around 6 THP and Moon 9 THP. 10th level (assuming WIS increases at 4 and 8) 15 THP/35 THP. 20th level 26 THP (20th level gives +2 to a stat now so 22 WIS) and 66 THP.
I don't think that is too much, but I'm not a designer so there is that.
Edit: sure, you could burn through those 66 THP in one turn at 20th level, but it's a buffer and you would still stay in your WS form even when it's gone.
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I ran the math for a fight against a Bulette as a representative CR5.
Against an AC 14 opponent it will average 22.3 DPR with an average of 30 damage per hit. That's an average of 4.2-4.5 (a little variation here based on the AC of the druid out of wild shape) rounds to drop the druid to 0 HP on their main HP pool with two wild shapes up.
Against the fighter with 49 HP and 18 AC it averages 16.3 DPR which means it's 3.006 rounds to drop the fighter to 0 HP.
Against the barbarian with 59 HP and 16 AC it's 19.3 DPR but half that to 9.65 so it's 6.11 rounds to drop to 0 HP.
Barbarian wins in this case with the druid coming second. But what if the damage type is not physical? 6.11 drops to 3.05 rounds now the druid out tanks both frontline tanks while also being a full caster. In either scenario the fighter is left wondering why they are the worst at soaking damage. Repeat the above with the new Barkskin running on the druid regenerating 7 HP a round and they come close to the barbarian in tanking ability against physical damage too.