Until recently there weren't that many int save spells which PCs could capitalize on the -4.
As long as the option exists, there will eventually be things that target it. Int saves shouldn't have been an option in the first place; did we really gain all that much by switching from the Fort/Ref/Will trio used in 3e and 4e?
Though usually if its -4 we are talking beasts/oozes etc which really aren't a threat so not a huge issue.
Mindless brute monsters go all the way up; just in the monster manual we have the following CR 15+ creatures with Int saves of -4 or -5: iron golem, purple worm, tarrasque.
Until recently there weren't that many int save spells which PCs could capitalize on the -4.
As long as the option exists, there will eventually be things that target it. Int saves shouldn't have been an option in the first place; did we really gain all that much by switching from the Fort/Ref/Will trio used in 3e and 4e?
Though usually if its -4 we are talking beasts/oozes etc which really aren't a threat so not a huge issue.
Mindless brute monsters go all the way up; just in the monster manual we have the following CR 15+ creatures with Int saves of -4 or -5: iron golem, purple worm, tarrasque.
I agree we should go back to 3 saves, but again at least in the PH there really are no int options. I can only think of maze which is a 8th level spell. I guess illusions as well but none of those really stopped a creature. And the something like phantasmal killer is an illusion it still uses a wisdom save. With your example the iron golem is immune to most spells that would disable them, their immunity to psychic damage would make them immune to the tashas int save disable spell and illusion spells are as effective as the DM decides they are. The tarrasque is horribly designed on multiple levels, people have complained about that for ages. Purple worm, I don't really care, its more of a trap encounter than a boss fight. I'm sure there are some good examples but its not that common and the disabling effects are very sparse for int.
Which does not change that we should go back to 3 saves, nothing was gained by expanding it to 6 and low saves should not exist in high CR monsters, and I'd also say their ACs need to be good as well.
i think aoe spells like moonbeam should just be changed to the creature takes the damage once per turn otherwise makes things too dumb esp with monsters with legendary actions that allow movement. atm if you move the aoe to be ontop of the creature it doesnt take affect untill start of their turn so they can just la and move out and be fine so the caster just wasted their turn moving it or casting it and then its cat an mouse to chase after it so it cant just move away. its especially worse for monsters with decent range
I honestly think that if WotC had of timed the latest play test release till a month after movie release then they would get a different feedback on Druid
I’m not saying their current play test is right, far from it, I just think people are going to engage differently.
I honestly think that if WotC had of timed the latest play test release till a month after movie release then they would get a different feedback on Druid
I’m not saying their current play test is right, far from it, I just think people are going to engage differently.
On Druids and Paladins? Hmmmmmm.
I will see the movie this week, but I doubt that anything the movie does will make me feel that the Statblocks proposed for Wildshape are a good idea! ;)
What I'd really like to see is the data on some of these proposals. In the video a lot of things are mentioned, and previous attempts alluded to, but there seems to be only annecdotal feedback on anything to do with the Druid and wildshape. I'd really doubt that a Druid takes longer at the table on average than other character classes, or that the HP pool of a Druid's wildshape makes them go to Death Saves more than another class type.
What I'd really like to see is the data on some of these proposals. In the video a lot of things are mentioned, and previous attempts alluded to, but there seems to be only annecdotal feedback on anything to do with the Druid and wildshape. I'd really doubt that a Druid takes longer at the table on average than other character classes, or that the HP pool of a Druid's wildshape makes them go to Death Saves more than another class type.
My problem with the video is Crawford spent a big chunk of it talking about why they had to make Tiny such a delayed feature; he was literally describing why they had to introduce another problem on top of other problems they created, it was very un-self-aware.
If the balancing factor of Tiny previously was having fewer hit-points than larger sizes, then getting rid of wildshape hit-points is an obvious blunder they didn't address at all. He doesn't address the fact that the shapes using the Druid's hit-points doesn't make them stronger, it makes the Druid weaker compared to 5e, as even if you could be knocked out of a form faster at least you weren't taking as much damage to your own hit-points (so a wildshape is never really wasted).
The problem in 5e was the amount of hit-points you could gain from a single use of wild-shape, and the number of times you could use it (getting unlimited uses has always been broken, it should have been limited to smaller/weaker creatures). Their goal should have been to limit both of those and Druid is fine.
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What I'd really like to see is the data on some of these proposals. In the video a lot of things are mentioned, and previous attempts alluded to, but there seems to be only annecdotal feedback on anything to do with the Druid and wildshape. I'd really doubt that a Druid takes longer at the table on average than other character classes, or that the HP pool of a Druid's wildshape makes them go to Death Saves more than another class type.
The problem in 5e was the amount of hit-points you could gain from a single use of wild-shape, and the number of times you could use it (getting unlimited uses has always been broken, it should have been limited to smaller/weaker creatures). Their goal should have been to limit both of those and Druid is fine.
The problem your describing here really only comes up for Moon Druids, though. That's why I think it makes sense to write special WS rules for Moon Druid.
WS was never OP combat-wise for non-Moon Druids, which is part of why some players don't like playing with pre-Tasha's Druids.
Really, what the devs should do is keep Wildshape as it is for everyone except Moon Druids. For everyone else, just condense the beast stat blocks that are in the PHB (maybe add a few more aquatic options). That preserves flexibility and variety for Druid players generally. Then draft up special rules re: WildShape for the Moon Druid. Make them an "Advanced Subclass" , one that would occasionally want to dip into the Monster Manual to get more combat-ready WS as they leveled up. Artificers, if they even are allowed to exist in OneD&D, will have to be an "Advanced Class" as well for the same reason.
The problem your describing here really only comes up for Moon Druids, though. That's why I think it makes sense to write special WS rules for Moon Druid.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
But the point really is that this was always going to be hard to balance properly, and should have been obvious at the time (just by taking the maximum HP you could gain by the number of times you might be able to use it, it should have been clear it needed scaling limits of some kind).
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You are using your action and a spell slot so one character gets 2 rounds of actions.
Trading 1 action for 2 actions is a net gain of actions though so is tactically advantageous. If you're facing AoE CC then you could be trading 1 action for 4 actions which is incredibly powerful. Consider that Bless is considered one of the best spells in the game but only slightly increases a party member's chance to hit or make a save but costs and action to cast. Why is a spell that can give multiple party members a multiple whole turns never even mentioned? Charm can even turn a member of the party against the party itself, so not only are you gaining actions for your party, you are taking them away from the enemy. Yet never once have I seen anyone say that Calm Emotions is a good spell.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
But the point really is that this was always going to be hard to balance properly, and should have been obvious at the time (just by taking the maximum HP you could gain by the number of times you might be able to use it, it should have been clear it needed scaling limits of some kind).
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
* Annis Hag (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 15 points avg damage per hit. Crushing hug for 36 avg damage possible. AC 17. Hit points: 75 add resistance to non-magic B, S, P damage.
* Bodak (CR 6) - One attack per round + Gaze attack, +5 to hit, Gaze is DC 13 Con saving throw; 13 and 22 avg damage respectively. AC 15. Hit points: 58. Resistance to non-magical B, S, P damage add a few damage immunities.
* Chimera (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, + 7 to hit, 11 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 114. Can fly and has breath weapon.
* Draegoloteh (CR 7) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 16 points avg damage per hit. AC 15. Hit points: 123 + poison immune and resistant to some stuff. Darkness at will, making it harder to hit than AC 15 would imply.
* Cloaker (CR 8) - Two attacks per round, +6 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 78 + resistance to all damage when attached to a creature and has its special form of MIrror Image spell.
* Blackguard (CR 8) - Three attacks per round, +7 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 18. Hit points: 153.
* Cloud Giant (CR 9) - Two attacks per round, +12 to hit, 21 avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 200
* Evoker (CR 9) - counts as 12th level spellcaster, +7 to hit with spell attcks, has access to Fireball, Lightning Bolk, Ice Storm, Bigby's Hand, Cone of Cold and that's not even counting 6th level spells. AC 12, Hit points: 66
* Glabrezu (CR 9) - Four attacks per round, +9 to hit, 16, 16, 7, 7 avg damage per hit. AC 17, Hit points: 157. Immune to non-magical B, S, P damage plus other stuff.
In what world is a beastie with 37 hit points, AC 14, no resistances to anything and no magical attacks a threat to any of these creatures? Other than being part of a short term obstacle for monsters, combat for CR 1 beasts is suicide against CR 6 and above monsters. If you are an 8th level Druid, Conjure Animals and Conjure Minor Elemental far far surpasses what you can do combat-wise with Wildshape. At that level, you're still mostly using your WS for transport and problem-solving before the fight. Not combat, unless you are truly desperate.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
You mean the same "low CR" options every druid has access to? If you're comparing CR 1/4 beasts with CR 1 beasts, then you're missing their argument by a country mile. The statistics are comparable to monsters of those challenge ratings, which you're still likely to be encountering. Whatever you think you're losing in effectiveness, you're still gaining temporary hit points. And both size and movement modes can be used to gain other advantages. And if you're already scouting as a giant wolf spider, it doesn't suck against early enemies like goblins and kobolds.
If we look at the RAW encounter-building math, a CR 1/4 monster is an even match for a 1st-level character. So turning into one at 2nd-level isn't the big deal you think it is.
Now, if we're talking past 8th-level, when all druids have access to CR 1 beasts that fly, they don't actually suck. Yes, all the ones in the MM are Large, which does limit their usefulness in tight spaces. Most still have multiattack, or deal enough damage with a single hit to make up for it. Only one has a measly +4 to hit with their melee attacks, with most being at +5. (The brown bear is the only +6). And they all have at least 26 hit points, so if you're using Wild Shape often, that's─at minimum─52 hit points per short rest.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
But the point really is that this was always going to be hard to balance properly, and should have been obvious at the time (just by taking the maximum HP you could gain by the number of times you might be able to use it, it should have been clear it needed scaling limits of some kind).
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
* Annis Hag (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 15 points avg damage per hit. Crushing hug for 36 avg damage possible. AC 17. Hit points: 75.
* Bodak (CR 6) - One attack per round + Gaze attack, +5 to hit, Gaze is DC 13 Con saving throw; 13 and 22 avg damage respectively. AC 15. Hit points: 58. Resistance to non-magical B, S, P damage add a few damage immunities.
* Chimera (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, + 7 to hit, 11 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 114. Can fly and has breath weapon.
* Draegoloteh (CR 7) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 16 points avg damage per hit. AC 15. Hit points: 123 + poison immune and resistant to some stuff. Darkness at will, making it harder to hit than AC 15 would imply.
* Cloaker (CR 8) - Two attacks per round, +6 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 78 + resistance to all damage when attached to a creature and has its special form of MIrror Image spell.
* Blackguard (CR 8) - Three attacks per round, +7 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 18. Hit points: 153.
* Cloud Giant (CR 9) - Two attacks per round, +12 to hit, 21 avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 200
* Evoker (CR 9) - counts as 12th level spellcaster, +7 to hit with spell attcks, has access to Fireball, Lightning Bolk, Ice Storm, Bigby's Hand, Cone of Cold and that's not even counting 6th level spells. AC 12, Hit points: 66
* Glabrezu (CR 9) - Four attacks per round, +9 to hit, 16, 16, 7, 7 avg damage per hit. AC 17, Hit points: 157. Immune to non-magical B, S, P damage plus other stuff.
In what world is a beastie with 37 hit points, AC 14, no resistances to anything and no magical attacks a threat to any of these creatures? (Okay, maybe the Annis Hag, but that's CR 6.) Other than being part of a short term obstacle for monsters, combat for CR 1 beasts is suicide against CR 6 and above monsters. If you are an 8th level Druid, Conjure Animals and Conjure Minor Elemental far far surpasses what you can do combat-wise with Wildshape. At that level, you're still mostly using your WS for transport and problem-solving before the fight. Not combat, unless you are truly desperate.
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
You mean the same "low CR" options every druid has access to? If you're comparing CR 1/4 beasts with CR 1 beasts, then you're missing their argument by a country mile. The statistics are comparable to monsters of those challenge ratings, which you're still likely to be encountering. Whatever you think you're losing in effectiveness, you're still gaining temporary hit points. And both size and movement modes can be used to gain other advantages. And if you're already scouting as a giant wolf spider, it doesn't suck against early enemies like goblins and kobolds.
If we look at the RAW encounter-building math, a CR 1/4 monster is an even match for a 1st-level character. So turning into one at 2nd-level isn't the big deal you think it is.
Now, if we're talking past 8th-level, when all druids have access to CR 1 beasts that fly, they don't actually suck. Yes, all the ones in the MM are Large, which does limit their usefulness in tight spaces. Most still have multiattack, or deal enough damage with a single hit to make up for it. Only one has a measly +4 to hit with their melee attacks, with most being at +5. (The brown bear is the only +6). And they all have at least 26 hit points, so if you're using Wild Shape often, that's─at minimum─52 hit points per short rest.
By level 8, Wildshapring into CR 1 beasts in combat is not effective except to soak hits for 1 or 2 rounds. In which case, it's generally far better to cast a strong concentration spell and make yourself scarce/go behind cover to maintain concentration. See post # 151 comparing stats, avg damage, and resistances of CR 6 to CR 9 monsters to CR 1 beasts. And the comparison gets noticeably worse the higher up in level the Druid goes because CR 1 is max for any non-Moon Druid.
In what world is a beastie with 37 hit points, AC 14, no resistances to anything and no magical attacks a threat to any of these creatures? (Okay, maybe the Annis Hag, but that's CR 6.) Other than being part of a short term obstacle for monsters, combat for CR 1 beasts is suicide against CR 6 and above monsters. If you are an 8th level Druid, Conjure Animals and Conjure Minor Elemental far far surpasses what you can do combat-wise with Wildshape. At that level, you're still mostly using your WS for transport and problem-solving before the fight. Not combat, unless you are truly desperate.
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
Please re-read my last paragraph. Once you hit 5th level, a pure Druid build is all about Conjure spells for maximum combat effectiveness most of the time. You can get 2 Giant Octopi casting from 3rd level slot. If you upcast Conjure Animals using 5th level slot, you get 4 Giant Octopi. So that's twice or four times as effective as WS yourself into Giant Octopus. Why would you want to get in melee range when you have powerful concentration spells that you want to maintain?
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
You've clearly never played it.
A giant octopus needs to hit, which is maybe 50% against a CR 8 target. It also takes an action (rather than a bonus action) for a non-Moon druid to transform. Overall, two turns of actions from the druid, for a 50% chance to apply 10 damage and restrained. That is simply not worth doing.
Even on a moon druid, beast form at level 5+ is mostly about scouting.
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
You've clearly never played it.
A giant octopus needs to hit, which is maybe 50% against a CR 8 target. It also takes an action (rather than a bonus action) for a non-Moon druid to transform. Overall, two turns of actions from the druid, for a 50% chance to apply 10 damage and restrained. That is simply not worth doing.
Even on a moon druid, beast form at level 5+ is mostly about scouting.
This is why I personally like the direction Wizards is going it with the templates using YOUR proficiency bonus and YOUR wisdom modifier for strength and dexterity. While certainly not a perfect system, it allows for scaling. If there were a few more templates for each environment for differentiation, I personally would be very happy.
My only real suggestion would be that I see Moon Druids as gaining their Wisdom to exchange with Strength and Constitution, while Land Druids gaining their Wisdom to exchange with Dexterity only. The templates would include smaller animals such as snakes and whatnot, which would allow for dexterity to be utilized for Land, while Bears and such would utilize strength for Moon. Adding constitution exchange for Moon would allow for a few more hit points for combat and balance with the spell casting advantage for Land Druids.
This is why I personally like the direction Wizards is going it with the templates using YOUR proficiency bonus and YOUR wisdom modifier for strength and dexterity. While certainly not a perfect system, it allows for scaling. If there were a few more templates for each environment for differentiation, I personally would be very happy.
The problem with the new system isn't the use of templates. It's that the templates are boring and useless.
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
You've clearly never played it.
A giant octopus needs to hit, which is maybe 50% against a CR 8 target. It also takes an action (rather than a bonus action) for a non-Moon druid to transform. Overall, two turns of actions from the druid, for a 50% chance to apply 10 damage and restrained. That is simply not worth doing.
Even on a moon druid, beast form at level 5+ is mostly about scouting.
This kind of calculation is exactly the problem. It's of course worth doing, not just for the Druid Octopus' potential to grapple but for the fun of it! You are in a party, right? So you read the party and see if the 50HP and special abilities of the Octopus (not forgetting of course it can emerge and retreat underwater) might be useful either to tank for the party or allow some advantage for them to hit.
You could also not Wildshape and caste Faerie Fire, then duck behind a tree. Which sounds like more fun? :)
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
Adding HP, whether it's 15 or 50, is still doing something for the party for how ever many rounds that lasts. Even non-Moon Druids can do better than 10HP, but that's not really the point, as it's a tradeoff from spellcasting, so you have to see what is most needed for the party.
As a Circle of Land Druid I once cast Moonbeam (I think I was level 4), Wildshaped into an ape on the next turn, climbed a roof above a party of Goblins and Bugbears that were trashing my party, and began to pick them off one by one while ducking away over the edge each turn. It turned the tide nicely.
Later at about level 6, during a fight with an Oni (CR 7) plus a handful of it's minion zombies the Druid jumped over the edge of a water level bridge into a lake, wildshaped into a Giant Octopus, and then surprised the Oni and grappled, managing to let everyone else tee off. It got low on HP and went gaseous, then got a critical smite from our Paladin.
The benefits of Druid wildshaping with animal statblocks aren't about MIN/MAX combat stats, but the fun and felxibility it allows a Druid to react to what the party is facing. A Druid's wildshape is a toolbox, and it's never about whether you've maxed your attacks and damage for that turn. It can just as easily be that you cast Healing Spirit and turn into a Giant Centipede to hide under a ledge and heal everyone each turn. It all depends on party needs.
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As long as the option exists, there will eventually be things that target it. Int saves shouldn't have been an option in the first place; did we really gain all that much by switching from the Fort/Ref/Will trio used in 3e and 4e?
Mindless brute monsters go all the way up; just in the monster manual we have the following CR 15+ creatures with Int saves of -4 or -5: iron golem, purple worm, tarrasque.
I agree we should go back to 3 saves, but again at least in the PH there really are no int options. I can only think of maze which is a 8th level spell. I guess illusions as well but none of those really stopped a creature. And the something like phantasmal killer is an illusion it still uses a wisdom save. With your example the iron golem is immune to most spells that would disable them, their immunity to psychic damage would make them immune to the tashas int save disable spell and illusion spells are as effective as the DM decides they are. The tarrasque is horribly designed on multiple levels, people have complained about that for ages. Purple worm, I don't really care, its more of a trap encounter than a boss fight. I'm sure there are some good examples but its not that common and the disabling effects are very sparse for int.
Which does not change that we should go back to 3 saves, nothing was gained by expanding it to 6 and low saves should not exist in high CR monsters, and I'd also say their ACs need to be good as well.
i think aoe spells like moonbeam should just be changed to the creature takes the damage once per turn otherwise makes things too dumb esp with monsters with legendary actions that allow movement. atm if you move the aoe to be ontop of the creature it doesnt take affect untill start of their turn so they can just la and move out and be fine so the caster just wasted their turn moving it or casting it and then its cat an mouse to chase after it so it cant just move away. its especially worse for monsters with decent range
Just watched D&D HAT
I honestly think that if WotC had of timed the latest play test release till a month after movie release then they would get a different feedback on Druid
I’m not saying their current play test is right, far from it, I just think people are going to engage differently.
On Druids and Paladins? Hmmmmmm.
I will see the movie this week, but I doubt that anything the movie does will make me feel that the Statblocks proposed for Wildshape are a good idea! ;)
What I'd really like to see is the data on some of these proposals. In the video a lot of things are mentioned, and previous attempts alluded to, but there seems to be only annecdotal feedback on anything to do with the Druid and wildshape. I'd really doubt that a Druid takes longer at the table on average than other character classes, or that the HP pool of a Druid's wildshape makes them go to Death Saves more than another class type.
My problem with the video is Crawford spent a big chunk of it talking about why they had to make Tiny such a delayed feature; he was literally describing why they had to introduce another problem on top of other problems they created, it was very un-self-aware.
If the balancing factor of Tiny previously was having fewer hit-points than larger sizes, then getting rid of wildshape hit-points is an obvious blunder they didn't address at all. He doesn't address the fact that the shapes using the Druid's hit-points doesn't make them stronger, it makes the Druid weaker compared to 5e, as even if you could be knocked out of a form faster at least you weren't taking as much damage to your own hit-points (so a wildshape is never really wasted).
The problem in 5e was the amount of hit-points you could gain from a single use of wild-shape, and the number of times you could use it (getting unlimited uses has always been broken, it should have been limited to smaller/weaker creatures). Their goal should have been to limit both of those and Druid is fine.
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The problem your describing here really only comes up for Moon Druids, though. That's why I think it makes sense to write special WS rules for Moon Druid.
WS was never OP combat-wise for non-Moon Druids, which is part of why some players don't like playing with pre-Tasha's Druids.
Really, what the devs should do is keep Wildshape as it is for everyone except Moon Druids. For everyone else, just condense the beast stat blocks that are in the PHB (maybe add a few more aquatic options). That preserves flexibility and variety for Druid players generally. Then draft up special rules re: WildShape for the Moon Druid. Make them an "Advanced Subclass" , one that would occasionally want to dip into the Monster Manual to get more combat-ready WS as they leveled up. Artificers, if they even are allowed to exist in OneD&D, will have to be an "Advanced Class" as well for the same reason.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
But the point really is that this was always going to be hard to balance properly, and should have been obvious at the time (just by taking the maximum HP you could gain by the number of times you might be able to use it, it should have been clear it needed scaling limits of some kind).
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Trading 1 action for 2 actions is a net gain of actions though so is tactically advantageous. If you're facing AoE CC then you could be trading 1 action for 4 actions which is incredibly powerful. Consider that Bless is considered one of the best spells in the game but only slightly increases a party member's chance to hit or make a save but costs and action to cast. Why is a spell that can give multiple party members a multiple whole turns never even mentioned? Charm can even turn a member of the party against the party itself, so not only are you gaining actions for your party, you are taking them away from the enemy. Yet never once have I seen anyone say that Calm Emotions is a good spell.
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
* Annis Hag (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 15 points avg damage per hit. Crushing hug for 36 avg damage possible. AC 17. Hit points: 75 add resistance to non-magic B, S, P damage.
* Bodak (CR 6) - One attack per round + Gaze attack, +5 to hit, Gaze is DC 13 Con saving throw; 13 and 22 avg damage respectively. AC 15. Hit points: 58. Resistance to non-magical B, S, P damage add a few damage immunities.
* Chimera (CR 6) - Three attacks per round, + 7 to hit, 11 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 114. Can fly and has breath weapon.
* Draegoloteh (CR 7) - Three attacks per round, +8 to hit, 16 points avg damage per hit. AC 15. Hit points: 123 + poison immune and resistant to some stuff. Darkness at will, making it harder to hit than AC 15 would imply.
* Cloaker (CR 8) - Two attacks per round, +6 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 78 + resistance to all damage when attached to a creature and has its special form of MIrror Image spell.
* Blackguard (CR 8) - Three attacks per round, +7 to hit, 9 points avg damage per hit. AC 18. Hit points: 153.
* Cloud Giant (CR 9) - Two attacks per round, +12 to hit, 21 avg damage per hit. AC 14. Hit points: 200
* Evoker (CR 9) - counts as 12th level spellcaster, +7 to hit with spell attcks, has access to Fireball, Lightning Bolk, Ice Storm, Bigby's Hand, Cone of Cold and that's not even counting 6th level spells. AC 12, Hit points: 66
* Glabrezu (CR 9) - Four attacks per round, +9 to hit, 16, 16, 7, 7 avg damage per hit. AC 17, Hit points: 157. Immune to non-magical B, S, P damage plus other stuff.
In what world is a beastie with 37 hit points, AC 14, no resistances to anything and no magical attacks a threat to any of these creatures? Other than being part of a short term obstacle for monsters, combat for CR 1 beasts is suicide against CR 6 and above monsters. If you are an 8th level Druid, Conjure Animals and Conjure Minor Elemental far far surpasses what you can do combat-wise with Wildshape. At that level, you're still mostly using your WS for transport and problem-solving before the fight. Not combat, unless you are truly desperate.
You mean the same "low CR" options every druid has access to? If you're comparing CR 1/4 beasts with CR 1 beasts, then you're missing their argument by a country mile. The statistics are comparable to monsters of those challenge ratings, which you're still likely to be encountering. Whatever you think you're losing in effectiveness, you're still gaining temporary hit points. And both size and movement modes can be used to gain other advantages. And if you're already scouting as a giant wolf spider, it doesn't suck against early enemies like goblins and kobolds.
If we look at the RAW encounter-building math, a CR 1/4 monster is an even match for a 1st-level character. So turning into one at 2nd-level isn't the big deal you think it is.
Now, if we're talking past 8th-level, when all druids have access to CR 1 beasts that fly, they don't actually suck. Yes, all the ones in the MM are Large, which does limit their usefulness in tight spaces. Most still have multiattack, or deal enough damage with a single hit to make up for it. Only one has a measly +4 to hit with their melee attacks, with most being at +5. (The brown bear is the only +6). And they all have at least 26 hit points, so if you're using Wild Shape often, that's─at minimum─52 hit points per short rest.
You use something like a giant octopus to auto grapple and restrain the target on hit and now everyone gets advantage on their attacks against it. Could any other class restrain them as easily? No. They need to take a feat, then pass two checks using two rounds worth of actions to do it.
By level 8, Wildshapring into CR 1 beasts in combat is not effective except to soak hits for 1 or 2 rounds. In which case, it's generally far better to cast a strong concentration spell and make yourself scarce/go behind cover to maintain concentration. See post # 151 comparing stats, avg damage, and resistances of CR 6 to CR 9 monsters to CR 1 beasts. And the comparison gets noticeably worse the higher up in level the Druid goes because CR 1 is max for any non-Moon Druid.
Please re-read my last paragraph. Once you hit 5th level, a pure Druid build is all about Conjure spells for maximum combat effectiveness most of the time. You can get 2 Giant Octopi casting from 3rd level slot. If you upcast Conjure Animals using 5th level slot, you get 4 Giant Octopi. So that's twice or four times as effective as WS yourself into Giant Octopus. Why would you want to get in melee range when you have powerful concentration spells that you want to maintain?
You've clearly never played it.
A giant octopus needs to hit, which is maybe 50% against a CR 8 target. It also takes an action (rather than a bonus action) for a non-Moon druid to transform. Overall, two turns of actions from the druid, for a 50% chance to apply 10 damage and restrained. That is simply not worth doing.
Even on a moon druid, beast form at level 5+ is mostly about scouting.
This is why I personally like the direction Wizards is going it with the templates using YOUR proficiency bonus and YOUR wisdom modifier for strength and dexterity. While certainly not a perfect system, it allows for scaling. If there were a few more templates for each environment for differentiation, I personally would be very happy.
My only real suggestion would be that I see Moon Druids as gaining their Wisdom to exchange with Strength and Constitution, while Land Druids gaining their Wisdom to exchange with Dexterity only. The templates would include smaller animals such as snakes and whatnot, which would allow for dexterity to be utilized for Land, while Bears and such would utilize strength for Moon. Adding constitution exchange for Moon would allow for a few more hit points for combat and balance with the spell casting advantage for Land Druids.
The problem with the new system isn't the use of templates. It's that the templates are boring and useless.
This kind of calculation is exactly the problem. It's of course worth doing, not just for the Druid Octopus' potential to grapple but for the fun of it! You are in a party, right? So you read the party and see if the 50HP and special abilities of the Octopus (not forgetting of course it can emerge and retreat underwater) might be useful either to tank for the party or allow some advantage for them to hit.
You could also not Wildshape and caste Faerie Fire, then duck behind a tree. Which sounds like more fun? :)
Adding HP, whether it's 15 or 50, is still doing something for the party for how ever many rounds that lasts. Even non-Moon Druids can do better than 10HP, but that's not really the point, as it's a tradeoff from spellcasting, so you have to see what is most needed for the party.
As a Circle of Land Druid I once cast Moonbeam (I think I was level 4), Wildshaped into an ape on the next turn, climbed a roof above a party of Goblins and Bugbears that were trashing my party, and began to pick them off one by one while ducking away over the edge each turn. It turned the tide nicely.
Later at about level 6, during a fight with an Oni (CR 7) plus a handful of it's minion zombies the Druid jumped over the edge of a water level bridge into a lake, wildshaped into a Giant Octopus, and then surprised the Oni and grappled, managing to let everyone else tee off. It got low on HP and went gaseous, then got a critical smite from our Paladin.
The benefits of Druid wildshaping with animal statblocks aren't about MIN/MAX combat stats, but the fun and felxibility it allows a Druid to react to what the party is facing. A Druid's wildshape is a toolbox, and it's never about whether you've maxed your attacks and damage for that turn. It can just as easily be that you cast Healing Spirit and turn into a Giant Centipede to hide under a ledge and heal everyone each turn. It all depends on party needs.