As a Circle of Land Druid I once cast Moonbeam (I think I was level 4), Wildshaped into an ape on the next turn, climbed a roof above a party of Goblins and Bugbears that were trashing my party, and began to pick them off one by one while ducking away over the edge each turn. It turned the tide nicely.
Moonbeam is a perfectly good spell, but it would probably have had exactly the same effect if you hadn't used wild shape. Actually, better, because it's an action to move the beam, and unless the monsters have no choice about staying in the beam, you need to move it every round.
Now, if we're talking past 8th-level, when all druids have access to CR 1 beasts that fly, they don't actually suck. Yes, all the ones in the MM are Large, which does limit their usefulness in tight spaces. Most still have multiattack, or deal enough damage with a single hit to make up for it. Only one has a measly +4 to hit with their melee attacks, with most being at +5. (The brown bear is the only +6). And they all have at least 26 hit points, so if you're using Wild Shape often, that's─at minimum─52 hit points per short rest.
So, at level 8 you can approximately double your hit points if you reduce your AC to 13 and sacrifice all of your spellcasting..... That's like 2 extra rounds in a Hard / Deadly combat and you have to waste 2 actions to do it, so really you are achieving nothing except staying standing for a couple of rounds.
As a Circle of Land Druid I once cast Moonbeam (I think I was level 4), Wildshaped into an ape on the next turn, climbed a roof above a party of Goblins and Bugbears that were trashing my party, and began to pick them off one by one while ducking away over the edge each turn. It turned the tide nicely.
Moonbeam is a perfectly good spell, but it would probably have had exactly the same effect if you hadn't used wild shape. Actually, better, because it's an action to move the beam, and unless the monsters have no choice about staying in the beam, you need to move it every round.
not really because it’s not about moonbeam, it’s about the combination of the spell and the having the ability to take the high ground and cover - advantage point to see the action and position the spell to best use while limiting the risk of taking a hit and dropping concentration on the spell.
To each their own but I have been testing this since it came out. They are neither boring nor useless. They are just not quite right. Maybe you are looking for something a little bit more OP than what a well-balanced character should be able to do? Not sure. If they had a template for a frog, snake, wolf, bear owlbear (for Animals of the Land), with each of the forms with their own unique senses and abilities, it should be fine.
While it's not as exploitative, CR1 beasts can still have around 50 hit-points so even for other Druids it's equivalent to giving yourself 50 temporary hit-points for free, Circle of the Moon makes it much more exploitative because of the even higher CR options and it being a bonus action, but it can still be somewhat abused even on regular Druids, just not nearly as bad (you're giving up your action for a pretty big boost to durability, especially if your druid form's AC wasn't high enough to stop you from being hit anyway, i.e- reduced AC isn't an issue).
What are you talking about? Have you looked at the low CR options that non-Moondruids get? They have +3/+4 to hit, piddly damage, ~ 10 hp, and AC of 12. They do not make you beefy in the slightest and you lose your spellcasting in exchange. How is that "exploitative" in any way? Making yourself a trash fighter is not "abusing" the system, it's crippling your character in the hopes of lasting 1 more round so your friends kill the enemies and save your sorry skin.
You mean the same "low CR" options every druid has access to? If you're comparing CR 1/4 beasts with CR 1 beasts, then you're missing their argument by a country mile. The statistics are comparable to monsters of those challenge ratings, which you're still likely to be encountering. Whatever you think you're losing in effectiveness, you're still gaining temporary hit points. And both size and movement modes can be used to gain other advantages. And if you're already scouting as a giant wolf spider, it doesn't suck against early enemies like goblins and kobolds.
If we look at the RAW encounter-building math, a CR 1/4 monster is an even match for a 1st-level character. So turning into one at 2nd-level isn't the big deal you think it is.
Now, if we're talking past 8th-level, when all druids have access to CR 1 beasts that fly, they don't actually suck. Yes, all the ones in the MM are Large, which does limit their usefulness in tight spaces. Most still have multiattack, or deal enough damage with a single hit to make up for it. Only one has a measly +4 to hit with their melee attacks, with most being at +5. (The brown bear is the only +6). And they all have at least 26 hit points, so if you're using Wild Shape often, that's─at minimum─52 hit points per short rest.
By level 8, Wildshapring into CR 1 beasts in combat is not effective except to soak hits for 1 or 2 rounds. In which case, it's generally far better to cast a strong concentration spell and make yourself scarce/go behind cover to maintain concentration. See post # 151 comparing stats, avg damage, and resistances of CR 6 to CR 9 monsters to CR 1 beasts. And the comparison gets noticeably worse the higher up in level the Druid goes because CR 1 is max for any non-Moon Druid.
If you wait until the second turn to use wild shape, you can do both. Large pools of temporary hit points should not be discounted.
This is why I personally like the direction Wizards is going it with the templates using YOUR proficiency bonus and YOUR wisdom modifier for strength and dexterity. While certainly not a perfect system, it allows for scaling. If there were a few more templates for each environment for differentiation, I personally would be very happy.
The problem with the new system isn't the use of templates. It's that the templates are boring and useless.
Also, the templates are too few and too simplistic to cover anywhere near what current non-Moon Druids have access to.
While I agree that Moon Druids should have scaling hit dice, "to hit" bonus, saving thows, etc. based off of a chart, having 3 or even 6 options for all Wildshapes is waaaaay too sparse and kills the incentive of using WS at all, which will make Druids less popular, not more popular.
By level 8, Wildshapring into CR 1 beasts in combat is not effective except to soak hits for 1 or 2 rounds. In which case, it's generally far better to cast a strong concentration spell and make yourself scarce/go behind cover to maintain concentration. See post # 151 comparing stats, avg damage, and resistances of CR 6 to CR 9 monsters to CR 1 beasts. And the comparison gets noticeably worse the higher up in level the Druid goes because CR 1 is max for any non-Moon Druid.
If you wait until the second turn to use wild shape, you can do both. Large pools of temporary hit points should not be discounted.
Thirty-seven hit points without resistance, with low AC is rarely worth it for melee purposes, especially on a full caster class as dependent on concentration spells as Druids are.
It appears you are choosing to ignore the data on Post #151 about CR 6 to CR 9 creatures. Their "to hit", damage potential and hit points all far outstrip anything that a non-Moon Druid can get at level 8 and the gap gets progressively worse the higher up the Druid level goes. The main purpose of Wildshape for non-Moon Druids is transportation and non-combat utility, including getting far away from the front lines. I am not going to waste time further engaging with people who ignore clearly posted hard data.
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
A giant octopus has 52 hit-points in the basic rules, +5 to hit with a 15 foot reach and can auto-grapple and restrain a target with a decent escape DC of 16.
What I was saying though is that for 1 use of what at higher levels becomes unlimited uses, you've gained 52 hit-points on a basic Druid who hasn't specialised in wildshape; if you use that four times in a fight that's 208 extra hit-points for an enemy to chew through. It's equivalent (AC vs. enemy attack modifier dependent) to casting false life at 9th-level every turn. The only class that can do more is Moon Druid, because they're throwing out unlimited mammoths as a bonus action.
But my entire point (which you seem to be missing?) was that they set themselves up for an obvious balance/exploit nightmare from the start, and seem to be overreacting in the UA. I'm not sure why you should find that statement controversial?
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The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
A giant octopus has 52 hit-points in the basic rules, +5 to hit with a 15 foot reach and can auto-grapple and restrain a target with a decent escape DC of 16.
What I was saying though is that for 1 use of what at higher levels becomes unlimited uses, you've gained 52 hit-points on a basic Druid who hasn't specialised in wildshape; if you use that four times in a fight that's 208 extra hit-points for an enemy to chew through. It's equivalent (AC vs. enemy attack modifier dependent) to casting false life at 9th-level every turn. The only class that can do more is Moon Druid, because they're throwing out unlimited [Tooltip Not Found] as a bonus action.
But my entire point (which you seem to be missing?) was that they set themselves up for an obvious balance/exploit nightmare from the start, and seem to be overreacting in the UA. I'm not sure why you should find that statement controversial?
Sorry, Giant Octopus is not in the PHB. My suggestion was re: using PHB beasties being the most essential onees. I missed the GO b/c it was not part of my idea for using PHB beasts as the essential ones for OneD&D. Not that it's bad beast form, by any means; however, note that you are sacrificing having multiple attacks per round for a very low AC Wildshape. Good luck keeping concentration on any of your spells. Also, please re-read Post #155 on how much more powerful it is to use Conjure Animals (a Concentration spell) than it is to Wildshape yourself.
Keep in mind you only get 2 uses - not 4 - of Wildshape between short rests. There is no way to use it 4 times, as you stated, in a fight. Even Moon Druids get only 2 uses. (And Elemental WS at 10th level uses up both of them for that expensive Elemental form.)
I just don't see how Wildshaping into a CR 1 beast at 8th level is somehow easily exploitable. It's strong from levels 2 through 4, then is quite weak afterwards. Even the Moon Druid's CR progression after 4 level doesn't come close to keeping up with Paladins or Fighters built for melee. There is a reason why Mephista in the early part of the thread complained about not being able to WS into a cool Wolf form in Tier 2 and 3 of the game. Dire Wolf CR is 1. Even reskinning a Polar Bear or Allosaurus (both CR 2), doesn't help much in that department. Anyway, the point is that the so-called "bag of hit points" y'all are referring to is barely functional for Moon Druids after level 5; it's definitely NOT exploitable for non-Moon Druids. Unlike the Sorcerer or Wizard, Druids get their main utility via their concentration spells. Some people blame WS for the Druids relative low popularity. I think the high proportion of concentration spells is actually the bigger issue. Almost all of the Druid's power spells are either rituals or require concentration to shine. If you have crap for AC and you are putting yourself in melee, you easily lose concentration, even with Warcaster/Resilient CON.
Bottom line is Wildshape is great utility for Druids in general, which makes them great for the party. But relying on WS for combat is a losing proposition for most subclasses. Not exploitable unless you start going into Ranger + Druid poison-milking cheese (which requires out-of-combat downtime and a friendly DM).
Your also forgetting you have to have seen a giant octopus or giant ape pretty sure there not all that common. Issue with relying on conjour spells is that there fine unless banned as they can really slow down combat also the conjoured monsters are stupidly at gm discretion so of your gm is mean youd just get something useless
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
A giant octopus has 52 hit-points in the basic rules, +5 to hit with a 15 foot reach and can auto-grapple and restrain a target with a decent escape DC of 16.
What I was saying though is that for 1 use of what at higher levels becomes unlimited uses, you've gained 52 hit-points on a basic Druid who hasn't specialised in wildshape; if you use that four times in a fight that's 208 extra hit-points for an enemy to chew through. It's equivalent (AC vs. enemy attack modifier dependent) to casting false life at 9th-level every turn. The only class that can do more is Moon Druid, because they're throwing out unlimited [Tooltip Not Found] as a bonus action.
But my entire point (which you seem to be missing?) was that they set themselves up for an obvious balance/exploit nightmare from the start, and seem to be overreacting in the UA. I'm not sure why you should find that statement controversial?
LOL you're reaching here. It's 104 extra hit points at the cost of 2 actions at level 8 and sacrificing your spellcasting. Do you know what's actually equivalent? Casting Polymorph on yourself.. only that gives you 157 extra hit points and a powerful ranged attack at the same time - and only costs 1 action. Hm... it's almost like WS kind of sucks for non-Moon druids doesn't it...
To put it simply, these spell all do very similar but more powerful things than WS. If WS is an obvious balance/exploit nightmare then surely these spells are utterly game breaking and must immediately be removed or massively nerfed as well:
Conjure Animals Polymorph Animal Forms Shapechange True Polymorph
Special mention:
Animal Friendship - can be used to recruit an entire army of animal buddies to fight for you Conjure X - there are way more conjuration spells than just animals - devils, elementals, fey, celestials, planar creatures etc...
Your irrational hatred of WS is just that : irrational. A Bear Totem Barbarian effectively doubles their much larger it point pool by raging, Bladesingers and Artificers are practically unhittable, Paladins can nearly double their hit points by using Lay on Hands on themselves, Fighters and Celestial Warlocks get SR-recharge healing. I could handily make a dozen characters with more survivability in combat than a WSing non-moon druid without even breaking a sweat - and all of those would be more effective in combat.
A druid using Wild Shape is almost always better off than casting any spell capable of granting temporary hit points. And I'm only saying "almost better" because I'm covering my ass. I can't think of an instance that even comes close, but that doesn't mean someone else won't. What's more, temporary hit points stack with Wild Shape. It's also a way to gain movement modes and skill proficiencies the druid might otherwise lack. All in all, it's a more than decent feature. Yes, even at higher levels when you think it's being outclassed in raw numbers.
And no one should ever only look at the raw numbers. We all know this.
No one here hates Wild Shape. Haravikk's position has largely been, if anything, academic. Don't read into things that aren't there. It poisons the well.
The highest hit points for CR1 beasts in the PHB is 37 hp. Highest AC is 14. (Dire Wolf for both.) Highest "to hit" is +5. Highest # of attacks: 2. For non-Moon, you need to be level 8 at minimum. Now let's look at CR 6 to CR 9 creatures the party is likely to fight:
A giant octopus has 52 hit-points in the basic rules, +5 to hit with a 15 foot reach and can auto-grapple and restrain a target with a decent escape DC of 16.
What I was saying though is that for 1 use of what at higher levels becomes unlimited uses, you've gained 52 hit-points on a basic Druid who hasn't specialised in wildshape; if you use that four times in a fight that's 208 extra hit-points for an enemy to chew through. It's equivalent (AC vs. enemy attack modifier dependent) to casting false life at 9th-level every turn. The only class that can do more is Moon Druid, because they're throwing out unlimited [Tooltip Not Found] as a bonus action.
But my entire point (which you seem to be missing?) was that they set themselves up for an obvious balance/exploit nightmare from the start, and seem to be overreacting in the UA. I'm not sure why you should find that statement controversial?
LOL you're reaching here. It's 104 extra hit points at the cost of 2 actions at level 8 and sacrificing your spellcasting. Do you know what's actually equivalent? Casting Polymorph on yourself.. only that gives you 157 extra hit points and a powerful ranged attack at the same time - and only costs 1 action. Hm... it's almost like WS kind of sucks for non-Moon druids doesn't it...
To put it simply, these spell all do very similar but more powerful things than WS. If WS is an obvious balance/exploit nightmare then surely these spells are utterly game breaking and must immediately be removed or massively nerfed as well:
Conjure Animals Polymorph Animal Forms Shapechange True Polymorph
Special mention:
Animal Friendship - can be used to recruit an entire army of animal buddies to fight for you Conjure X - there are way more conjuration spells than just animals - devils, elementals, fey, celestials, planar creatures etc...
Your irrational hatred of WS is just that : irrational. A Bear Totem Barbarian effectively doubles their much larger it point pool by raging, Bladesingers and Artificers are practically unhittable, Paladins can nearly double their hit points by using Lay on Hands on themselves, Fighters and Celestial Warlocks get SR-recharge healing. I could handily make a dozen characters with more survivability in combat than a WSing non-moon druid without even breaking a sweat - and all of those would be more effective in combat.
It's 104 per short rest (more for a moon). Run the same survivability math with 6-8 encounters a day with a few short rests thrown in (the standard adventuring day). If your group only runs one or two fights a day? A barbarian will obviously be better as will a number of builds later game. The group is not being taxed on their resource pools at all so the math tilts towards survival/DPS nova builds that only need to last 3-4 rounds one or twice a day.
A druid using Wild Shape is almost always better off than casting any spell capable of granting temporary hit points. And I'm only saying "almost better" because I'm covering my ass. I can't think of an instance that even comes close, but that doesn't mean someone else won't. What's more, temporary hit points stack with Wild Shape. It's also a way to gain movement modes and skill proficiencies the druid might otherwise lack. All in all, it's a more than decent feature. Yes, even at higher levels when you think it's being outclassed in raw numbers.
And no one should ever only look at the raw numbers. We all know this.
No one here hates Wild Shape. Haravikk's position has largely been, if anything, academic. Don't read into things that aren't there. It poisons the well.
If HP are everything I guess, but the giant octopus outside of water has a move of what 10, it sucks in combat for that level, you can't cast spells etc. You are worse off by wildshaping in 5e unless you are a moon druid and even then you are worse off for 1/2 your levels. It is a fantastic utility feature but a pure crap combat one.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that people who rant and rave about how OP Wildshape is, that it needs to pared down a lot...clearly haven't spent much time playing a Druid. Moon Druids are the only ones that are arguably OP, but solely at specific levels: before 5th level, situationally at 10th and 11th level, and then again at 20th level (which few people adventure at anyway). For every other Druid type, it's not powerful. Useful on occasion? Yes. Bag of hit points my tutschka. If you want a "bag of hit points", look at the Barbarian class (esp. Bear Totem). Resistance to weapon damage plus a bunch of other combat benefits for a 1 minute long resource that's hard to get rid of without specific spells. Or the Peace and Twilight Clerics. If you want to fix something broken, look at what's clearly broken. People raising a ruckus about problems they don't understand, SMH.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that people who rant and rave about how OP Wildshape is, that it needs to pared down a lot...clearly haven't spent much time playing a Druid.
Moon druids are definitely overpowered at level 2-4, but that's just because the CR scaling for moon druids is wack, turning into a CR 1 at level 2 is silly. Just changing the limit at 2nd level to CR 1/2 mostly solves the problem.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that people who rant and rave about how OP Wildshape is, that it needs to pared down a lot...clearly haven't spent much time playing a Druid. Moon Druids are the only ones that are arguably OP, but solely at specific levels: before 5th level, situationally at 10th and 11th level, and then again at 20th level (which few people adventure at anyway). For every other Druid type, it's not powerful. Useful on occasion? Yes. Bag of hit points my tutschka. If you want a "bag of hit points", look at the Barbarian class (esp. Bear Totem). Resistance to weapon damage plus a bunch of other combat benefits for a 1 minute long resource that's hard to get rid of without specific spells. Or the Peace and Twilight Clerics. If you want to fix something broken, look at what's clearly broken. People raising a ruckus about problems they don't understand, SMH.
When moon druid and barbarian are multiclassed its OP especially at lower tier play which a fair amount of groups would be playing D&D at. I agree that the cleric subclasses you mention can also unbalance things.
My opinion (FWIW) is just remove the extra HP and give the wild shape a bonus to AC through Natural Armor (12+ wis mod, increase for Moon by adding extra ASI mod (str, dex, con) player choice)
Yeah, it's pretty clear that people who rant and rave about how OP Wildshape is, that it needs to pared down a lot...clearly haven't spent much time playing a Druid. Moon Druids are the only ones that are arguably OP, but solely at specific levels: before 5th level, situationally at 10th and 11th level, and then again at 20th level (which few people adventure at anyway). For every other Druid type, it's not powerful. Useful on occasion? Yes. Bag of hit points my tutschka. If you want a "bag of hit points", look at the Barbarian class (esp. Bear Totem). Resistance to weapon damage plus a bunch of other combat benefits for a 1 minute long resource that's hard to get rid of without specific spells. Or the Peace and Twilight Clerics. If you want to fix something broken, look at what's clearly broken. People raising a ruckus about problems they don't understand, SMH.
When moon druid and barbarian are multiclassed its OP especially at lower tier play which a fair amount of groups would be playing D&D at. I agree that the cleric subclasses you mention can also unbalance things.
My opinion (FWIW) is just remove the extra HP and give the wild shape a bonus to AC through Natural Armor (12+ wis mod, increase for Moon by adding extra ASI mod (str, dex, con) player choice)
It is OP at level 4-6 but then is trash. Whereas Warlock-Sorcerer MC is OP forever.
Sorry, Giant Octopus is not in the PHB. My suggestion was re: using PHB beasties being the most essential onees. I missed the GO b/c it was not part of my idea for using PHB beasts as the essential ones for OneD&D. Not that it's bad beast form, by any means; however, note that you are sacrificing having multiple attacks per round for a very low AC Wildshape. Good luck keeping concentration on any of your spells. Also, please re-read Post #155 on how much more powerful it is to use Conjure Animals (a Concentration spell) than it is to Wildshape yourself.
I wasn't replying to your suggestion, I was talking about why wildshape was always set up to be problematic to balance, especially when it becomes unlimited free uses later on within the context of Jeremy Crawford's video.
YOU replied to ME. Moving the goalposts to PHB only isn't helping your case if you're ignoring what I actually said in the first place (multiple times now).
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Moonbeam is a perfectly good spell, but it would probably have had exactly the same effect if you hadn't used wild shape. Actually, better, because it's an action to move the beam, and unless the monsters have no choice about staying in the beam, you need to move it every round.
So, at level 8 you can approximately double your hit points if you reduce your AC to 13 and sacrifice all of your spellcasting..... That's like 2 extra rounds in a Hard / Deadly combat and you have to waste 2 actions to do it, so really you are achieving nothing except staying standing for a couple of rounds.
not really because it’s not about moonbeam, it’s about the combination of the spell and the having the ability to take the high ground and cover - advantage point to see the action and position the spell to best use while limiting the risk of taking a hit and dropping concentration on the spell.
To each their own but I have been testing this since it came out. They are neither boring nor useless. They are just not quite right. Maybe you are looking for something a little bit more OP than what a well-balanced character should be able to do? Not sure. If they had a template for a frog, snake, wolf, bear owlbear (for Animals of the Land), with each of the forms with their own unique senses and abilities, it should be fine.
If you wait until the second turn to use wild shape, you can do both. Large pools of temporary hit points should not be discounted.
Also, the templates are too few and too simplistic to cover anywhere near what current non-Moon Druids have access to.
While I agree that Moon Druids should have scaling hit dice, "to hit" bonus, saving thows, etc. based off of a chart, having 3 or even 6 options for all Wildshapes is waaaaay too sparse and kills the incentive of using WS at all, which will make Druids less popular, not more popular.
Thirty-seven hit points without resistance, with low AC is rarely worth it for melee purposes, especially on a full caster class as dependent on concentration spells as Druids are.
It appears you are choosing to ignore the data on Post #151 about CR 6 to CR 9 creatures. Their "to hit", damage potential and hit points all far outstrip anything that a non-Moon Druid can get at level 8 and the gap gets progressively worse the higher up the Druid level goes. The main purpose of Wildshape for non-Moon Druids is transportation and non-combat utility, including getting far away from the front lines. I am not going to waste time further engaging with people who ignore clearly posted hard data.
A giant octopus has 52 hit-points in the basic rules, +5 to hit with a 15 foot reach and can auto-grapple and restrain a target with a decent escape DC of 16.
What I was saying though is that for 1 use of what at higher levels becomes unlimited uses, you've gained 52 hit-points on a basic Druid who hasn't specialised in wildshape; if you use that four times in a fight that's 208 extra hit-points for an enemy to chew through. It's equivalent (AC vs. enemy attack modifier dependent) to casting false life at 9th-level every turn. The only class that can do more is Moon Druid, because they're throwing out unlimited mammoths as a bonus action.
But my entire point (which you seem to be missing?) was that they set themselves up for an obvious balance/exploit nightmare from the start, and seem to be overreacting in the UA. I'm not sure why you should find that statement controversial?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Sorry, Giant Octopus is not in the PHB. My suggestion was re: using PHB beasties being the most essential onees. I missed the GO b/c it was not part of my idea for using PHB beasts as the essential ones for OneD&D. Not that it's bad beast form, by any means; however, note that you are sacrificing having multiple attacks per round for a very low AC Wildshape. Good luck keeping concentration on any of your spells. Also, please re-read Post #155 on how much more powerful it is to use Conjure Animals (a Concentration spell) than it is to Wildshape yourself.
Keep in mind you only get 2 uses - not 4 - of Wildshape between short rests. There is no way to use it 4 times, as you stated, in a fight. Even Moon Druids get only 2 uses. (And Elemental WS at 10th level uses up both of them for that expensive Elemental form.)
I just don't see how Wildshaping into a CR 1 beast at 8th level is somehow easily exploitable. It's strong from levels 2 through 4, then is quite weak afterwards. Even the Moon Druid's CR progression after 4 level doesn't come close to keeping up with Paladins or Fighters built for melee. There is a reason why Mephista in the early part of the thread complained about not being able to WS into a cool Wolf form in Tier 2 and 3 of the game. Dire Wolf CR is 1. Even reskinning a Polar Bear or Allosaurus (both CR 2), doesn't help much in that department. Anyway, the point is that the so-called "bag of hit points" y'all are referring to is barely functional for Moon Druids after level 5; it's definitely NOT exploitable for non-Moon Druids. Unlike the Sorcerer or Wizard, Druids get their main utility via their concentration spells. Some people blame WS for the Druids relative low popularity. I think the high proportion of concentration spells is actually the bigger issue. Almost all of the Druid's power spells are either rituals or require concentration to shine. If you have crap for AC and you are putting yourself in melee, you easily lose concentration, even with Warcaster/Resilient CON.
Bottom line is Wildshape is great utility for Druids in general, which makes them great for the party. But relying on WS for combat is a losing proposition for most subclasses. Not exploitable unless you start going into Ranger + Druid poison-milking cheese (which requires out-of-combat downtime and a friendly DM).
Your also forgetting you have to have seen a giant octopus or giant ape pretty sure there not all that common. Issue with relying on conjour spells is that there fine unless banned as they can really slow down combat also the conjoured monsters are stupidly at gm discretion so of your gm is mean youd just get something useless
LOL you're reaching here. It's 104 extra hit points at the cost of 2 actions at level 8 and sacrificing your spellcasting. Do you know what's actually equivalent? Casting Polymorph on yourself.. only that gives you 157 extra hit points and a powerful ranged attack at the same time - and only costs 1 action. Hm... it's almost like WS kind of sucks for non-Moon druids doesn't it...
To put it simply, these spell all do very similar but more powerful things than WS. If WS is an obvious balance/exploit nightmare then surely these spells are utterly game breaking and must immediately be removed or massively nerfed as well:
Conjure Animals
Polymorph
Animal Forms
Shapechange
True Polymorph
Special mention:
Animal Friendship - can be used to recruit an entire army of animal buddies to fight for you
Conjure X - there are way more conjuration spells than just animals - devils, elementals, fey, celestials, planar creatures etc...
Your irrational hatred of WS is just that : irrational. A Bear Totem Barbarian effectively doubles their much larger it point pool by raging, Bladesingers and Artificers are practically unhittable, Paladins can nearly double their hit points by using Lay on Hands on themselves, Fighters and Celestial Warlocks get SR-recharge healing. I could handily make a dozen characters with more survivability in combat than a WSing non-moon druid without even breaking a sweat - and all of those would be more effective in combat.
A druid using Wild Shape is almost always better off than casting any spell capable of granting temporary hit points. And I'm only saying "almost better" because I'm covering my ass. I can't think of an instance that even comes close, but that doesn't mean someone else won't. What's more, temporary hit points stack with Wild Shape. It's also a way to gain movement modes and skill proficiencies the druid might otherwise lack. All in all, it's a more than decent feature. Yes, even at higher levels when you think it's being outclassed in raw numbers.
And no one should ever only look at the raw numbers. We all know this.
No one here hates Wild Shape. Haravikk's position has largely been, if anything, academic. Don't read into things that aren't there. It poisons the well.
It's 104 per short rest (more for a moon). Run the same survivability math with 6-8 encounters a day with a few short rests thrown in (the standard adventuring day). If your group only runs one or two fights a day? A barbarian will obviously be better as will a number of builds later game. The group is not being taxed on their resource pools at all so the math tilts towards survival/DPS nova builds that only need to last 3-4 rounds one or twice a day.
If HP are everything I guess, but the giant octopus outside of water has a move of what 10, it sucks in combat for that level, you can't cast spells etc. You are worse off by wildshaping in 5e unless you are a moon druid and even then you are worse off for 1/2 your levels. It is a fantastic utility feature but a pure crap combat one.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that people who rant and rave about how OP Wildshape is, that it needs to pared down a lot...clearly haven't spent much time playing a Druid. Moon Druids are the only ones that are arguably OP, but solely at specific levels: before 5th level, situationally at 10th and 11th level, and then again at 20th level (which few people adventure at anyway). For every other Druid type, it's not powerful. Useful on occasion? Yes. Bag of hit points my tutschka. If you want a "bag of hit points", look at the Barbarian class (esp. Bear Totem). Resistance to weapon damage plus a bunch of other combat benefits for a 1 minute long resource that's hard to get rid of without specific spells. Or the Peace and Twilight Clerics. If you want to fix something broken, look at what's clearly broken. People raising a ruckus about problems they don't understand, SMH.
Moon druids are definitely overpowered at level 2-4, but that's just because the CR scaling for moon druids is wack, turning into a CR 1 at level 2 is silly. Just changing the limit at 2nd level to CR 1/2 mostly solves the problem.
When moon druid and barbarian are multiclassed its OP especially at lower tier play which a fair amount of groups would be playing D&D at. I agree that the cleric subclasses you mention can also unbalance things.
My opinion (FWIW) is just remove the extra HP and give the wild shape a bonus to AC through Natural Armor (12+ wis mod, increase for Moon by adding extra ASI mod (str, dex, con) player choice)
It is OP at level 4-6 but then is trash. Whereas Warlock-Sorcerer MC is OP forever.
and the expectation is that Eldritch Blast will be a class ability, not a spell, and nerf some of that
I wasn't replying to your suggestion, I was talking about why wildshape was always set up to be problematic to balance, especially when it becomes unlimited free uses later on within the context of Jeremy Crawford's video.
YOU replied to ME. Moving the goalposts to PHB only isn't helping your case if you're ignoring what I actually said in the first place (multiple times now).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.