~ There are quite the number of people turned away from the class because they don't want to have to do what amounts to homework to make wildshape work. Numbers just kind of start blurring together after a while. Yes, its readily available, but it creates a kind of higher barrier for entry that's not desirable for the long term health of the class. Lots of people just don't want to sit down and do the research. Which is, frankly, very understandable.
~ I know several DMs who found that wildshaping into tiny animals made better scouts than the Rogue and Ranger. Making them, well, kind of obsolete. Not cool. I admit, that does depend a bit on the DM, but it was enough of a problem that it really did need to be addressed. CoDzilla, full caster domination, etc is unhealthy for the game in the long term.
Homework in re: Wildshape. Many of the best options are already in the PHB. I find that people who cannot be bothered to read a section almost entirely devoted in a CORE player book (it's on the label) to play the class that they want to play to be an argument either made by people with a reading disability (understandable) or who just don't like reading period. If it's the former, then some communication/cooperation with the DM would be required, but that would be true of any full spellcasting class. If it's the latter, then why are they trying to play a full spellcaster in the first place?? Spellcasting requires reading and interpreting lots of text to apply it to the game. People who just dislike reading should not complain about not getting the "full treatment" to their class if they can't be bothered to read.
Re: Wildshaping into Tiny size forms, it has already been addressed by several people that a skilled DM can find ways to limit the abilities of Tiny wildshaped Druids since none of the Tiny forms have hands. This is not an Imp or Quasit shape we're talking about here. To recap a bit...there are also plenty of environmental and ecological constraints to Tiny forms that others have mentioned, such as natural predators to said Tiny WSed druids. Also, no spellcasting of any kind until 18th level (I personally find that very high threshold a little absurd). An Arcane Trickster or Ranger can still cast spells like Message or Find Traps while being stealthy. It's also important to remember that many parties nowadays do not have Rogues. Gone are the days when a standard party consists of a Fighter, a Wizard, a Thief, and Cleric. For many parties, the Druid has to pull double duty to cover multiple roles, in which case being able to turn Tiny is of much benefit to the party.
Re: Wildshaping into Tiny size forms, it has already been addressed by several people that a skilled DM can find ways to limit the abilities of Tiny wildshaped Druids since none of the Tiny forms have hands. This is not an Imp or Quasit shape we're talking about here. To recap a bit...there are also plenty of environmental and ecological constraints to Tiny forms that others have mentioned, such as natural predators to said Tiny WSed druids. Also, no spellcasting of any kind until 18th level (I personally find that very high threshold a little absurd). An Arcane Trickster or Ranger can still cast spells like Message or Find Traps while being stealthy. It's also important to remember that many parties nowadays do not have Rogues. Gone are the days when a standard party consists of a Fighter, a Wizard, a Thief, and Cleric. For many parties, the Druid has to pull double duty to cover multiple roles, in which case being able to turn Tiny is of much benefit to the party.
If it requires a skilled DM to fix it the rule probably needs a revision.
The dungeon dudes had a idea which I guess is inspired by pathfinder 2 on how to do this. Sure keep templates but have a lot more of them and make them more specific, like have a arachnid form, feline form, equine form, wolf form, shark form etc Give those templates appropriate abilities for the form, limit how many the druid learns so sure you can take some great scouting form like rodent form or insect form but it has a cost of being one of your choices which could have been something to round out combat capabilities. Limit some forms to higher level choices.
I dig it, not as messy as some weird make your own hybrid forms that a list of abilities could bring, still easier than the monster manual list, they can be better balanced instead of using Cr, it wont limit future beast monster manual options and it still feels like wild shape. Might be too close to how pathfinder does it, but its a solid idea.
The dungeon dudes had a idea which I guess is inspired by pathfinder 2 on how to do this. Sure keep templates but have a lot more of them and make them more specific, like have a arachnid form, feline form, equine form, wolf form, shark form etc Give those templates appropriate abilities for the form, limit how many the druid learns so sure you can take some great scouting form like rodent form or insect form but it has a cost of being one of your choices which could have been something to round out combat capabilities. Limit some forms to higher level choices.
I dig it, not as messy as some weird make your own hybrid forms that a list of abilities could bring, still easier than the monster manual list, they can be better balanced instead of using Cr, it wont limit future beast monster manual options and it still feels like wild shape. Might be too close to how pathfinder does it, but its a solid idea.
I made a comment on another Druid UA thread about having an expanded selection of templates here. It would take about 9 to 11 templates, though, to get some good variety out of it. That would take up 2 to 3 pages if using the formatting and kerning of the 5e PHB. I'm not a huge fan of the solution, but if it helps newer DMs and players run a watered down-but-not-too-boring Druid, and nobody is insisting that I personally have to play that watered down Druid, that's fine by me.
The dungeon dudes had a idea which I guess is inspired by pathfinder 2 on how to do this. Sure keep templates but have a lot more of them and make them more specific, like have a arachnid form, feline form, equine form, wolf form, shark form etc Give those templates appropriate abilities for the form, limit how many the druid learns so sure you can take some great scouting form like rodent form or insect form but it has a cost of being one of your choices which could have been something to round out combat capabilities. Limit some forms to higher level choices.
I dig it, not as messy as some weird make your own hybrid forms that a list of abilities could bring, still easier than the monster manual list, they can be better balanced instead of using Cr, it wont limit future beast monster manual options and it still feels like wild shape. Might be too close to how pathfinder does it, but its a solid idea.
Assuming enough forms available that could work. However, the problem here IMO is that it really isn't simplifying anything then, and if they continue with this design we're just going to have an explosion of dozens upon dozens of different template statblocks in addition to those in the monster manual. Because Beastmaster Ranger will have it's own 3-5 templates, Conjure Animals will have its own 3-10 templates, WS will have 10-20 templates, Conjure Fey will have its own 3-10 templates, Polymorph will have its own 10-20 templates, etc.. etc... etc... And all of these template-creatures will be in addition to those in the monster manual.
As much as we might decry having 20 beasts to sort through, is it really more complicated than having 5 or 6 "horses" on the map each using a different statblock? (a find steed horse, a regular horse, a WS druid as a horse, an enemy polymorphed into a horse, a ranger's companion horse, and a Conjure Animals horse).
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
The DM has the creatures' statistics. Sample creatures can be found below.
Why not? They are just as problematic in terms of making the game complicated and requiring players to dig into other books and searching through every published book to find the optimal forms to use them. As a druid player, if I'm already looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 2 or lower for Conjure Animals, then at the same time I'm looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 1 or lower that I could use with WildShape.
If we consider the "problems" with Wildshape in 5e: - it hamper's the designer's ability to introduce new beasts b/c druids can turn into them - it requires players to search through every book to find the optimal forms - it gives druids too much flexibility and they are stepping on the toes of rangers & rogue - it give druids too much HP
All of those are just as applicable to Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey (arguably more so!). So I really don't understand how changing WS so that it uses a different set of statblocks than Conjure Animals, solves anything.
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
The DM has the creatures' statistics. Sample creatures can be found below.
Why not? They are just as problematic in terms of making the game complicated and requiring players to dig into other books and searching through every published book to find the optimal forms to use them. As a druid player, if I'm already looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 2 or lower for Conjure Animals, then at the same time I'm looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 1 or lower that I could use with WildShape.
If we consider the "problems" with Wildshape in 5e: - it hamper's the designer's ability to introduce new beasts b/c druids can turn into them - it requires players to search through every book to find the optimal forms - it gives druids too much flexibility and they are stepping on the toes of rangers & rogue - it give druids too much HP
All of those are just as applicable to Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey (arguably more so!). So I really don't understand how changing WS so that it uses a different set of statblocks than Conjure Animals, solves anything.
Because the player needn't decide the form. That way, the DM only has to worry about a handful of potential forms to have at the ready.
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
The DM has the creatures' statistics. Sample creatures can be found below.
Why not? They are just as problematic in terms of making the game complicated and requiring players to dig into other books and searching through every published book to find the optimal forms to use them. As a druid player, if I'm already looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 2 or lower for Conjure Animals, then at the same time I'm looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 1 or lower that I could use with WildShape.
If we consider the "problems" with Wildshape in 5e: - it hamper's the designer's ability to introduce new beasts b/c druids can turn into them - it requires players to search through every book to find the optimal forms - it gives druids too much flexibility and they are stepping on the toes of rangers & rogue - it give druids too much HP
All of those are just as applicable to Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey (arguably more so!). So I really don't understand how changing WS so that it uses a different set of statblocks than Conjure Animals, solves anything.
Because the player needn't decide the form. That way, the DM only has to worry about a handful of potential forms to have at the ready.
That's equally the same for Wildshape though. The DM can just give the player a handful of statblocks and say "those of the forms your druid knows".
The dungeon dudes had a idea which I guess is inspired by pathfinder 2 on how to do this. Sure keep templates but have a lot more of them and make them more specific, like have a arachnid form, feline form, equine form, wolf form, shark form etc Give those templates appropriate abilities for the form, limit how many the druid learns so sure you can take some great scouting form like rodent form or insect form but it has a cost of being one of your choices which could have been something to round out combat capabilities. Limit some forms to higher level choices.
I dig it, not as messy as some weird make your own hybrid forms that a list of abilities could bring, still easier than the monster manual list, they can be better balanced instead of using Cr, it wont limit future beast monster manual options and it still feels like wild shape. Might be too close to how pathfinder does it, but its a solid idea.
Assuming enough forms available that could work. However, the problem here IMO is that it really isn't simplifying anything then, and if they continue with this design we're just going to have an explosion of dozens upon dozens of different template statblocks in addition to those in the monster manual. Because Beastmaster Ranger will have it's own 3-5 templates, Conjure Animals will have its own 3-10 templates, WS will have 10-20 templates, Conjure Fey will have its own 3-10 templates, Polymorph will have its own 10-20 templates, etc.. etc... etc... And all of these template-creatures will be in addition to those in the monster manual.
As much as we might decry having 20 beasts to sort through, is it really more complicated than having 5 or 6 "horses" on the map each using a different statblock? (a find steed horse, a regular horse, a WS druid as a horse, an enemy polymorphed into a horse, a ranger's companion horse, and a Conjure Animals horse).
You could probably just have one set of templates and just give enhancements based on class. So like 1 horse template but druids while wild shaped add their wisdom bonus to attack and damage and can use their class abilities.
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
What do you think summon beast and summon fey represent? They just couldn't delete the old versions of the spell in an expansion book.
That is my suspicion though I think they need to be re-balanced a bit. Currently they seem too good to me and scale incredibly well.
Really? They're available at a lower level, sure, but they're not without significant drawbacks. You only get one creature, for example, and they require an expensive spell component. Not everyone is walking around with that much coin by 3rd or 5th level.
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
What do you think summon beast and summon fey represent? They just couldn't delete the old versions of the spell in an expansion book.
That is my suspicion though I think they need to be re-balanced a bit. Currently they seem too good to me and scale incredibly well.
Really? They're available at a lower level, sure, but they're not without significant drawbacks. You only get one creature, for example, and they require an expensive spell component. Not everyone is walking around with that much coin by 3rd or 5th level.
Yeah a 4th level spell slot gets 2 attacks and does like 2d4+7 damage, that is what a lot of fighters are doing at level 7. You shouldn't have to min max for damage or use resources to avoid being replaced in damage output by a single spell. And meanwhile the wizard can still cantrip away. And its not like their only point is damage, they can also take hits for the party, some will have special effects you can key off of etc. And to top it off they last a hour. We had a sword and board fighter which yeah isn't DPR focused but the spell exceeded his damage output on its own unless he used his battle master resources which he ran out of fast. Sure he was much tankier but its not a great feeling to think hey this dudes summon is beating me.
Summon beast is almost certainly going to be lower damage output than conjure animals until very high level; 8 wolves do a ridiculous amount of damage.
I’ve been saying this since the test play came out. It seems the direction they are going is to simplify things and let players do what they want. I see no reason why druids shouldn’t have a single stat block and be able to pick from a list of abilities that they want (maybe 3) to make their wild shape unique. This would save so much space in the new player’s handbook when it comes out than adding more stat blocks, which leaves room for other things. It also does everything that people are asking for without complicating everything. A list something like: Climbing, flying, swimming, burrow, +2 ac, temp hp, grappling, extra attack, knock prone, charge, +10 speed, webbing. Something like this. Now, that I think of it that’s kind of what they were trying to do with the Ardling. They can still do that just do it with the Druid wildshape. The other big issue I have with the Druid is that wildshape seems to be the dominate feature of the base channel nature. Yeah, it’s cool, but what about people who don’t want to wild shape? I think a good idea would be to just put find familiar on the primal list since they can summon anything else anyway, why not the most basic thing? Then they can use the space to give druids something interesting that levels up as they do, especially if they go in the direction of the one stat block with choice of abilities, this allows all those wild shape level ups to be something different and more interesting. They’re going for iconic. What’s more iconic for a Druid than a mass of vines or something nature oriented protecting the party? Maybe a restraining wall since they are a priest class that would keep the players safe. The other thing I don’t like is the healing blossoms. It’s way too weak. I heal the whole party or one person for s max of 20 hit points divided among them? That’s not helping much at higher levels. Lastly, the tiny. I don’t see this as something that should be at level 11 unless it comes with something else like you could be tiny or huge, each with its own unique uses. Tiny does half damage and and moves at half speed and can be used for scouting if you want. Huge can do double damage with more hp and can be used to as a mount for multiple pcs. I think that would balance it out and make it worth getting at level 11. It’s also just simply cool. Anyway, these are my ideas to fix the base Druid, which I think in turn would make everyone happy, make the subclasses nicer, and make moon Druid cooler as well because it makes the transformations more useful then just an elemental animal with a movement speed. I would love to discuss them if anyone wants to.
I’ve been saying this since the test play came out. It seems the direction they are going is to simplify things and let players do what they want. I see no reason why druids shouldn’t have a single stat block and be able to pick from a list of abilities that they want (maybe 3) to make their wild shape unique. This would save so much space in the new player’s handbook when it comes out than adding more stat blocks, which leaves room for other things. It also does everything that people are asking for without complicating everything. A list something like: Climbing, flying, swimming, burrow, +2 ac, temp hp, grappling, extra attack, knock prone, charge, +10 speed, webbing. Something like this. Now, that I think of it that’s kind of what they were trying to do with the Ardling. They can still do that just do it with the Druid wildshape. The other big issue I have with the Druid is that wildshape seems to be the dominate feature of the base channel nature. Yeah, it’s cool, but what about people who don’t want to wild shape? I think a good idea would be to just put find familiar on the primal list since they can summon anything else anyway, why not the most basic thing? Then they can use the space to give druids something interesting that levels up as they do, especially if they go in the direction of the one stat block with choice of abilities, this allows all those wild shape level ups to be something different and more interesting. They’re going for iconic. What’s more iconic for a Druid than a mass of vines or something nature oriented protecting the party? Maybe a restraining wall since they are a priest class that would keep the players safe. The other thing I don’t like is the healing blossoms. It’s way too weak. I heal the whole party or one person for s max of 20 hit points divided among them? That’s not helping much at higher levels. Lastly, the tiny. I don’t see this as something that should be at level 11 unless it comes with something else like you could be tiny or huge, each with its own unique uses. Tiny does half damage and and moves at half speed and can be used for scouting if you want. Huge can do double damage with more hp and can be used to as a mount for multiple pcs. I think that would balance it out and make it worth getting at level 11. It’s also just simply cool. Anyway, these are my ideas to fix the base Druid, which I think in turn would make everyone happy, make the subclasses nicer, and make moon Druid cooler as well because it makes the transformations more useful then just an elemental animal with a movement speed. I would love to discuss them if anyone wants to.
This is something that Jeremy Crawford mentions in the new video. They could possibly go with options to customize the templates or possibly go with a set of curated monster (beast) stat blocks that will be included in the class. But until they get the survey results from this UA and have a chance to read comments we won't know which direction, or a completely different direction, they may choose to go.
He did point out, which I totally missed, was that for circle of the moon druids, they already have the shove/prone and grapple options in WS because of the inclusion of the bonus action Unarmed Strike (the UA unarmed strike lets you choose damage, shove/prone, or grapple)
It does seem that they are following discussions online about these UA's so that is at least a good sign that they are at least interested in what the community thinks.
I did not read the whole tread so what I suggest might have already been suggested by somebody else. Also have been watching the new video where they do talk about he druid https://youtu.be/6hlqW6mYaGo
I do like using creature stat blocks But have also seen that the very large HP buffer it creates can create problems, and it can be difficult for some plyers to chose from so many forms. Maintaining your own HP also has problems like they say in the video keeping your own HP makes tiny forms a lot tougher, and tis is why they moved tiny form to a higher level.
I have seen players whose turn comes up and then spend a lot of time going trough books with stat blocks to find the right one for the occasion. Maybe we should limit the number of forms that the druid knows ? The Druid would get a form at levels 1, 2 and then every even level. The Druid class would come with a suggested form for each level where you gain new form, the stats would be printed with the class for those forms. And it mentions that you can talk with your DM about picking another beast of the same CR ( with some mentions of what kind of movement it is allowed to have)
I am for reducing the hit point buffer wildshape currently creates in 5e, but I would still like to give a small amount of temp HP. The amount of temp HP would be the same as the amount of HP the creature gets from it's con score For example: a wolfs hit point entry says (2d8+2) so you get 2 temp HP while a mammoth has (11d12+55) giving you 55 temp HP.
This leaves the issue of tiny forms having a lot more HP if you keep your own HP making it lot harder to knock you out of that form. Druids would have to make a concentration check to see if they lose their animal form if they take damage higher then the creatures HP entry. 1 for a rat, 11 for a wolf and 126 for a mammoth.
I’ve been saying this since the test play came out. It seems the direction they are going is to simplify things and let players do what they want. I see no reason why druids shouldn’t have a single stat block and be able to pick from a list of abilities that they want (maybe 3) to make their wild shape unique. This would save so much space in the new player’s handbook when it comes out than adding more stat blocks, which leaves room for other things. It also does everything that people are asking for without complicating everything. A list something like: Climbing, flying, swimming, burrow, +2 ac, temp hp, grappling, extra attack, knock prone, charge, +10 speed, webbing. Something like this. Now, that I think of it that’s kind of what they were trying to do with the Ardling. They can still do that just do it with the Druid wildshape. The other big issue I have with the Druid is that wildshape seems to be the dominate feature of the base channel nature. Yeah, it’s cool, but what about people who don’t want to wild shape? I think a good idea would be to just put find familiar on the primal list since they can summon anything else anyway, why not the most basic thing? Then they can use the space to give druids something interesting that levels up as they do, especially if they go in the direction of the one stat block with choice of abilities, this allows all those wild shape level ups to be something different and more interesting. They’re going for iconic. What’s more iconic for a Druid than a mass of vines or something nature oriented protecting the party? Maybe a restraining wall since they are a priest class that would keep the players safe. The other thing I don’t like is the healing blossoms. It’s way too weak. I heal the whole party or one person for s max of 20 hit points divided among them? That’s not helping much at higher levels. Lastly, the tiny. I don’t see this as something that should be at level 11 unless it comes with something else like you could be tiny or huge, each with its own unique uses. Tiny does half damage and and moves at half speed and can be used for scouting if you want. Huge can do double damage with more hp and can be used to as a mount for multiple pcs. I think that would balance it out and make it worth getting at level 11. It’s also just simply cool. Anyway, these are my ideas to fix the base Druid, which I think in turn would make everyone happy, make the subclasses nicer, and make moon Druid cooler as well because it makes the transformations more useful then just an elemental animal with a movement speed. I would love to discuss them if anyone wants to.
This is something that Jeremy Crawford mentions in the new video. They could possibly go with options to customize the templates or possibly go with a set of curated monster (beast) stat blocks that will be included in the class. But until they get the survey results from this UA and have a chance to read comments we won't know which direction, or a completely different direction, they may choose to go.
He did point out, which I totally missed, was that for circle of the moon druids, they already have the shove/prone and grapple options in WS because of the inclusion of the bonus action Unarmed Strike (the UA unarmed strike lets you choose damage, shove/prone, or grapple)
It does seem that they are following discussions online about these UA's so that is at least a good sign that they are at least interested in what the community thinks.
I did see that about the grappling and prone with the moon Druid and thought that was awesome and the temp hp or whatever could be covered by the abjuratuon usage, which is includes Protection spells and healing. Not exactly the same thing but I can live with it. I am glad that they are listening to the ideas. I do like the skills list and the stat block ideas. Both really good ideas, I’m just leaning toward the skill list because it saves space in the PH, which I don’t think others are considering.
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.
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Homework in re: Wildshape. Many of the best options are already in the PHB. I find that people who cannot be bothered to read a section almost entirely devoted in a CORE player book (it's on the label) to play the class that they want to play to be an argument either made by people with a reading disability (understandable) or who just don't like reading period. If it's the former, then some communication/cooperation with the DM would be required, but that would be true of any full spellcasting class. If it's the latter, then why are they trying to play a full spellcaster in the first place?? Spellcasting requires reading and interpreting lots of text to apply it to the game. People who just dislike reading should not complain about not getting the "full treatment" to their class if they can't be bothered to read.
Re: Wildshaping into Tiny size forms, it has already been addressed by several people that a skilled DM can find ways to limit the abilities of Tiny wildshaped Druids since none of the Tiny forms have hands. This is not an Imp or Quasit shape we're talking about here. To recap a bit...there are also plenty of environmental and ecological constraints to Tiny forms that others have mentioned, such as natural predators to said Tiny WSed druids. Also, no spellcasting of any kind until 18th level (I personally find that very high threshold a little absurd). An Arcane Trickster or Ranger can still cast spells like Message or Find Traps while being stealthy. It's also important to remember that many parties nowadays do not have Rogues. Gone are the days when a standard party consists of a Fighter, a Wizard, a Thief, and Cleric. For many parties, the Druid has to pull double duty to cover multiple roles, in which case being able to turn Tiny is of much benefit to the party.
If it requires a skilled DM to fix it the rule probably needs a revision.
The dungeon dudes had a idea which I guess is inspired by pathfinder 2 on how to do this. Sure keep templates but have a lot more of them and make them more specific, like have a arachnid form, feline form, equine form, wolf form, shark form etc Give those templates appropriate abilities for the form, limit how many the druid learns so sure you can take some great scouting form like rodent form or insect form but it has a cost of being one of your choices which could have been something to round out combat capabilities. Limit some forms to higher level choices.
I dig it, not as messy as some weird make your own hybrid forms that a list of abilities could bring, still easier than the monster manual list, they can be better balanced instead of using Cr, it wont limit future beast monster manual options and it still feels like wild shape. Might be too close to how pathfinder does it, but its a solid idea.
I made a comment on another Druid UA thread about having an expanded selection of templates here. It would take about 9 to 11 templates, though, to get some good variety out of it. That would take up 2 to 3 pages if using the formatting and kerning of the 5e PHB. I'm not a huge fan of the solution, but if it helps newer DMs and players run a watered down-but-not-too-boring Druid, and nobody is insisting that I personally have to play that watered down Druid, that's fine by me.
Assuming enough forms available that could work. However, the problem here IMO is that it really isn't simplifying anything then, and if they continue with this design we're just going to have an explosion of dozens upon dozens of different template statblocks in addition to those in the monster manual. Because Beastmaster Ranger will have it's own 3-5 templates, Conjure Animals will have its own 3-10 templates, WS will have 10-20 templates, Conjure Fey will have its own 3-10 templates, Polymorph will have its own 10-20 templates, etc.. etc... etc... And all of these template-creatures will be in addition to those in the monster manual.
As much as we might decry having 20 beasts to sort through, is it really more complicated than having 5 or 6 "horses" on the map each using a different statblock? (a find steed horse, a regular horse, a WS druid as a horse, an enemy polymorphed into a horse, a ranger's companion horse, and a Conjure Animals horse).
I don't think spells like conjure animals and conjure fey are going to get significant rewrites and templates.
Why not? They are just as problematic in terms of making the game complicated and requiring players to dig into other books and searching through every published book to find the optimal forms to use them. As a druid player, if I'm already looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 2 or lower for Conjure Animals, then at the same time I'm looking through all the available beast statblocks of CR 1 or lower that I could use with WildShape.
If we consider the "problems" with Wildshape in 5e:
- it hamper's the designer's ability to introduce new beasts b/c druids can turn into them
- it requires players to search through every book to find the optimal forms
- it gives druids too much flexibility and they are stepping on the toes of rangers & rogue
- it give druids too much HP
All of those are just as applicable to Conjure Animals and Conjure Fey (arguably more so!). So I really don't understand how changing WS so that it uses a different set of statblocks than Conjure Animals, solves anything.
Because the player needn't decide the form. That way, the DM only has to worry about a handful of potential forms to have at the ready.
That's equally the same for Wildshape though. The DM can just give the player a handful of statblocks and say "those of the forms your druid knows".
What do you think summon beast and summon fey represent? They just couldn't delete the old versions of the spell in an expansion book.
You could probably just have one set of templates and just give enhancements based on class. So like 1 horse template but druids while wild shaped add their wisdom bonus to attack and damage and can use their class abilities.
That is my suspicion though I think they need to be re-balanced a bit. Currently they seem too good to me and scale incredibly well.
Really? They're available at a lower level, sure, but they're not without significant drawbacks. You only get one creature, for example, and they require an expensive spell component. Not everyone is walking around with that much coin by 3rd or 5th level.
Yeah a 4th level spell slot gets 2 attacks and does like 2d4+7 damage, that is what a lot of fighters are doing at level 7. You shouldn't have to min max for damage or use resources to avoid being replaced in damage output by a single spell. And meanwhile the wizard can still cantrip away. And its not like their only point is damage, they can also take hits for the party, some will have special effects you can key off of etc. And to top it off they last a hour. We had a sword and board fighter which yeah isn't DPR focused but the spell exceeded his damage output on its own unless he used his battle master resources which he ran out of fast. Sure he was much tankier but its not a great feeling to think hey this dudes summon is beating me.
Summon beast is almost certainly going to be lower damage output than conjure animals until very high level; 8 wolves do a ridiculous amount of damage.
I’ve been saying this since the test play came out. It seems the direction they are going is to simplify things and let players do what they want. I see no reason why druids shouldn’t have a single stat block and be able to pick from a list of abilities that they want (maybe 3) to make their wild shape unique. This would save so much space in the new player’s handbook when it comes out than adding more stat blocks, which leaves room for other things. It also does everything that people are asking for without complicating everything.
A list something like: Climbing, flying, swimming, burrow, +2 ac, temp hp, grappling, extra attack, knock prone, charge, +10 speed, webbing.
Something like this. Now, that I think of it that’s kind of what they were trying to do with the Ardling. They can still do that just do it with the Druid wildshape.
The other big issue I have with the Druid is that wildshape seems to be the dominate feature of the base channel nature. Yeah, it’s cool, but what about people who don’t want to wild shape? I think a good idea would be to just put find familiar on the primal list since they can summon anything else anyway, why not the most basic thing? Then they can use the space to give druids something interesting that levels up as they do, especially if they go in the direction of the one stat block with choice of abilities, this allows all those wild shape level ups to be something different and more interesting. They’re going for iconic. What’s more iconic for a Druid than a mass of vines or something nature oriented protecting the party? Maybe a restraining wall since they are a priest class that would keep the players safe.
The other thing I don’t like is the healing blossoms. It’s way too weak. I heal the whole party or one person for s max of 20 hit points divided among them? That’s not helping much at higher levels.
Lastly, the tiny. I don’t see this as something that should be at level 11 unless it comes with something else like you could be tiny or huge, each with its own unique uses. Tiny does half damage and and moves at half speed and can be used for scouting if you want. Huge can do double damage with more hp and can be used to as a mount for multiple pcs. I think that would balance it out and make it worth getting at level 11. It’s also just simply cool.
Anyway, these are my ideas to fix the base Druid, which I think in turn would make everyone happy, make the subclasses nicer, and make moon Druid cooler as well because it makes the transformations more useful then just an elemental animal with a movement speed. I would love to discuss them if anyone wants to.
This is something that Jeremy Crawford mentions in the new video. They could possibly go with options to customize the templates or possibly go with a set of curated monster (beast) stat blocks that will be included in the class. But until they get the survey results from this UA and have a chance to read comments we won't know which direction, or a completely different direction, they may choose to go.
He did point out, which I totally missed, was that for circle of the moon druids, they already have the shove/prone and grapple options in WS because of the inclusion of the bonus action Unarmed Strike (the UA unarmed strike lets you choose damage, shove/prone, or grapple)
It does seem that they are following discussions online about these UA's so that is at least a good sign that they are at least interested in what the community thinks.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I did not read the whole tread so what I suggest might have already been suggested by somebody else.
Also have been watching the new video where they do talk about he druid https://youtu.be/6hlqW6mYaGo
I do like using creature stat blocks But have also seen that the very large HP buffer it creates can create problems, and it can be difficult for some plyers to chose from so many forms.
Maintaining your own HP also has problems like they say in the video keeping your own HP makes tiny forms a lot tougher, and tis is why they moved tiny form to a higher level.
I have seen players whose turn comes up and then spend a lot of time going trough books with stat blocks to find the right one for the occasion.
Maybe we should limit the number of forms that the druid knows ?
The Druid would get a form at levels 1, 2 and then every even level.
The Druid class would come with a suggested form for each level where you gain new form, the stats would be printed with the class for those forms.
And it mentions that you can talk with your DM about picking another beast of the same CR ( with some mentions of what kind of movement it is allowed to have)
I am for reducing the hit point buffer wildshape currently creates in 5e, but I would still like to give a small amount of temp HP.
The amount of temp HP would be the same as the amount of HP the creature gets from it's con score
For example: a wolfs hit point entry says (2d8+2) so you get 2 temp HP while a mammoth has (11d12+55) giving you 55 temp HP.
This leaves the issue of tiny forms having a lot more HP if you keep your own HP making it lot harder to knock you out of that form.
Druids would have to make a concentration check to see if they lose their animal form if they take damage higher then the creatures HP entry. 1 for a rat, 11 for a wolf and 126 for a mammoth.
I did see that about the grappling and prone with the moon Druid and thought that was awesome and the temp hp or whatever could be covered by the abjuratuon usage, which is includes Protection spells and healing. Not exactly the same thing but I can live with it.
I am glad that they are listening to the ideas. I do like the skills list and the stat block ideas. Both really good ideas, I’m just leaning toward the skill list because it saves space in the PH, which I don’t think others are considering.
I think the problem with the abjuration perk is primal abjuration sucks. I think the problem with the list is I suspect there will be some abilities that are dramatically better than intended when done by someone with PC stats while in combination with other abilities. And while they may come out in play test sometimes its the kind of thing that comes out 6 months after game launch. As a quick example grapples with burrows might have an outsized effect.