Playtest 6: Channel Nature is Dead, LONG LIVE WILD SHAPE(**cough** Channel Nature)
Well, there are a few ideas from contributors here that look like functions in UA playtest 6 (great minds and all that). We have some elemental damage moved around, some play functions with animals and plants, some spell recovery, Wither & Bloom etc.
It’s starting to flesh out nicely and based on the lack of outrage on forums, it’s not hated, but there are still some issues to be worked through.
Some wonky stuff between base and subclass:
L2 you can change into a frog and breathe water; Sea gains breathe water at L6 – more work is needed on it because adding a swim speed to a land based beast and it doesn’t get water breathing unless you case water breathing… um pointless? I think it’s a wasted level for Sea Druid
L3 Moon gains spell casting in wild shape, other druids gain it at L18 – this is broken. work out another way to regain health because a Moon Druid should NOT be able to be a healing support caster.
Using characters AC for Moon Druid wild shape AC will lead to AC shenanigans and “Mother my I” requests. It needs to be simplified and concise so there is no ambiguity
L15 Thorn whip for 300 ft., well that’s going to be interesting…
Levels 11, 13 & 17 are blank and need filling, what's your ideas?
Also i didn't want to talk Moon's AC here but i think i will in a bit, because Warden also becomes the prerequisite for Moon Druid because of the AC calculations. But please don't offer up odd combinations of beast + stuff, a fix needs to be clean and easy to interpret.
L2 you can change into a frog and breathe water; Sea gains breathe water at L6 – more work is needed on it because adding a swim speed to a land based beast and it doesn’t get water breathing unless you case water breathing… um pointless? I think it’s a wasted level for Sea Druid
Well, water breathing affects a number of characters; likely up to the entire party and then some. And there are already some beasts, like the polar bear which have a swim speed and lack any Amphibious or Water Breathing trait. That said, I think you're missing a key detail: you have a swim speed equal to your speed. Your speed changes when you use Wild Shape. Now, picture a giant elk with a 60 ft. swim speed. Even if you aren't fighting in three dimensions, being able to fight normally (without disadvantage) while in the water and move at a blisteringly fast pace is cool.
L3 Moon gains spell casting in wild shape, other druids gain it at L18 – this is broken. work out another way to regain health because a Moon Druid should NOT be able to be a healing support caster.
Using characters AC for Moon Druid wild shape AC will lead to AC shenanigans and “Mother my I” requests. It needs to be simplified and concise so there is no ambiguity
They're limited to abjuration spells, which from the primal spell list means mostly healing and protective magic like cure wounds, dispel magic, lesser restoration, protection from energy, and the resistance cantrip. They can get more from Magic Initiate or multiclassing, and that's okay. They're either limited to more cantrips and 1st-level spells, or they're trading stronger wild shape forms for increased spellcasting. The only offensive spell they have access to in that form is moonbeam. Hardly broken.
The only ambiguity over the new AC formula is whether the armor still imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and even that's a maybe. Remeber, there are no hidden rules. If the feature only says you compare the AC, then it's only noting those values. It doesn't care about the rest. And since we're here already, there's no roleplay restriction on wearing metal armor. A steel suit of scale mail is on the table, and I think that's interesting. Still, I'd like to see something about exotic materials in the next PH for players who want to keep that.
L15 Thorn whip for 300 ft., well that’s going to be interesting…
It's 330 feet. The spell's range is extended by 300 feet. It isn't fixed to that value. Which means ray of frost, for those Circle of the Sea druids, would have a range of 360 feet. That's three times what fire bolt has. Personally, I find it excessive. Ranges of that magnitude rarely come up in battle. But it also means resistance (if learned as a Primal spell) has a range of 310 feet. It's a fantastic, if arguably over-tuned, support feature.
It also looks like Circle of the Sea is replacing Tempest Domain. I like that. I played mine more like a shaman anyway.
L2 you can change into a frog and breathe water; Sea gains breathe water at L6 – more work is needed on it because adding a swim speed to a land based beast and it doesn’t get water breathing unless you case water breathing… um pointless? I think it’s a wasted level for Sea Druid
Well, water breathing affects a number of characters; likely up to the entire party and then some. And there are already some beasts, like the polar bear which have a swim speed and lack any Amphibious or Water Breathing trait. That said, I think you're missing a key detail: you have a swim speed equal to your speed. Your speed changes when you use Wild Shape. Now, picture a giant elk with a 60 ft. swim speed. Even if you aren't fighting in three dimensions, being able to fight normally (without disadvantage) while in the water and move at a blisteringly fast pace is cool.
By all means test it out, but it looks fun to me.
i'll get to the others in a bit, but yes there is some functionality in water breathing, the issue with the swim part is around the sub-class limitations. This is not a Moon Druid, a Polar Bear and the Giant Elk are CR 2 creatures, not possible at the level you gain the swim add on to the wildshape creature.
the Sea Druid is just that - aquatic or coastal and the beasts associated with that terrain already have (in the most part) a swim speed and/or water breathing or hold breath.
so yes i do think that it is a bit of a wasted function which can be improved
it will play fine, with a Land Druid suddenly out in an aquatic situation, but thats not what it is and so it needs some work.
edit to add: also i'm going to say that the Sea Druid should straight up gain a Swim Speed at L3. A Sea Druid not knowing how to swim, if you haven't picked a species that can, until L6 is wonky.
L3 Moon gains spell casting in wild shape, other druids gain it at L18 – this is broken. work out another way to regain health because a Moon Druid should NOT be able to be a healing support caster.
Using characters AC for Moon Druid wild shape AC will lead to AC shenanigans and “Mother my I” requests. It needs to be simplified and concise so there is no ambiguity
They're limited to abjuration spells, which from the primal spell list means mostly healing and protective magic like cure wounds, dispel magic, lesser restoration, protection from energy, and the resistance cantrip. They can get more from Magic Initiate or multiclassing, and that's okay. They're either limited to more cantrips and 1st-level spells, or they're trading stronger wild shape forms for increased spellcasting. The only offensive spell they have access to in that form is moonbeam. Hardly broken.
from the playtest 6 Primal list
Resistance
Cure Wounds
Healing Word
Lesser Restoration
Pass without Trace
Protection from Poison
Dispel Magic
Mass Healing Word
Protection from Energy
Freedom of Movement
Greater Restoration
Mass Cure Wounds
Heal
Power Word Heal
The Moon Druid is suddenly the support healer while still in Wild Shape. I stand my ground, this is broken when the other druids don't get this until L18, the only spell they share once they hit L18 is Power Word Heal [edit poor wording - gah, i think you know what i mean].
There are dead levels at 11, 13 & 17 that this could be shifted to for all druids.
L15 Thorn whip for 300 ft., well that’s going to be interesting…
It's 330 feet. The spell's range is extended by 300 feet. It isn't fixed to that value. Which means ray of frost, for those Circle of the Sea druids, would have a range of 360 feet. That's three times what fire bolt has. Personally, I find it excessive. Ranges of that magnitude rarely come up in battle. But it also means resistance (if learned as a Primal spell) has a range of 310 feet. It's a fantastic, if arguably over-tuned, support feature.
It also looks like Circle of the Sea is replacing Tempest Domain. I like that. I played mine more like a shaman anyway.
Resistance has a range of touch, it can't be extended by the L15 ability.
Using characters AC for Moon Druid wild shape AC will lead to AC shenanigans and “Mother my I” requests. It needs to be simplified and concise so there is no ambiguity
The only ambiguity over the new AC formula is whether the armor still imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and even that's a maybe. Remeber, there are no hidden rules. If the feature only says you compare the AC, then it's only noting those values. It doesn't care about the rest. And since we're here already, there's no roleplay restriction on wearing metal armor. A steel suit of scale mail is on the table, and I think that's interesting. Still, I'd like to see something about exotic materials in the next PH for players who want to keep that.
Beast CR Size AC HP Dmg Dice Extra
B.Bear 1 Large 11 34 1d8, 2d6 Multiattack
D.Wolf 1 Large 14 37 2d6 50ft., Pack Tactics
G.Hyena 1 Large 12 45 2d6 50ft., Rampage
G.Octopus 1 Large 11 52 2d6 Swim, Reach, Grappled, Ink
G.Spider 1 Large 14 26 1d8, 2d8 Climb, Poisoned, Web
G.Toad 1 Large 11 39 1d10, 3d6 Swim, Swallow
Lion 1 Large 12 26 1d8 50ft., Pounce [extra attack]
Tiger 1 Large 12 37 1d10 40ft., Pounce [extra attack]
HP and AC of beast wild shape is irrelevent at L5 and this is a good thing because it opens the field up to choosing a beast that has the extra abilities that might benefit the situation but,
Taking the Medium Armor list (because the Moon Druid must take Warden...) and some guidance from the DMG a L5 Moon Druid can achieve an AC equal to 15 + Dex mod. With the magic items available to this point, it might be Serpent Scale Armor 14 + max Dex mod. A Santa Claus DM might gift a +1 AC armor or a Cloak of Protection.
What was previously a L5 Dire Wolf, AC 14, +37 HP (43 HP maxed con + spell slot burn to heal) becomes a possible AC 15, 43 HP +11 and needs to cast healing spells to keep up, or become MAD to increase AC.
It becomes messy. Might be fun at much higher levels where magic items (or multiple magic items) start to fluff around with the AC, but messy.
Having a fixed AC for wild shape based off a natural armor, that increases by druid level progression and healing limited to self, for example burning a spell slot like the 2014 druid, also removes the multi-subclass self-confusion of I’m a moon druid tank but I don’t know if I’m going to use my Action to cast a spell like Heal or Restoration for the party, or attack.
You don't need three posts to respond to my points. It's bordering on spam.
Having an always-on swim speed, without needing to expend a Wild Shape, is unequivocally useful. What it needs is language that bolsters anyone who already has a swim speed, so your lizardfolk, sea elves, and tritons don't lose out on a feature. And just because a druid belongs to the Circle of the Sea doesn't mean they need to have multiple swimming forms known for their Wild Shape. Having that swimming speed gives them options they otherwise wouldn't have. There are only two CR 1 beasts in the MM with a swim speed: the Giant Octopus and the Giant Toad. Letting them pick from any of the other six non-flying beasts in the same book is fine. It's harmless. The real advantages are (a) not moving at half speed in water, and (b) it lets them use literally any weapon they want if they're fighting in water. Even if you think it's just a ribbon, and maybe it is, it's a fine ribbon. None of the other 6th-level features for druid are that impressive.
You still haven't explained why you think a druid casting abjuration spells in a Combat Wild Shape is broken. In the 2014 PH, they could already expend spell slots to heal themselves. What is it about this playtest feature which breaks the subclass? And keep in mind, they still need to know and prepare these spells. They also can't cast every single one of them in a beast form. Both Protection from Evil and Good, if they took Magic Initiate (Arcane or Divine), and Greater Restoration are off limits. Even Armor of Agathys loses its luster because you can't stack temporary hit points. And all that is fine.
A previous UA changed Guidance and Resistance to both work as a reaction and have a range of 10 feet. There's no need to continue listing them if WotC is done playtesting them, and It's my hope that the changes are kept. It makes them far more usable without slowing down the game.
It is not a prerequisite for a Circle of the Moon druid to choose Warden as their Primal Order. They do not need Medium Armor Training to function, and I am taking this opportunity to repeat my earlier sentiment. It's nice just to see the expanded options. Metal armor has been a point of contention for a number of people, and there are canonical druids which can and do wear it.
I'm not going to bother going over your table, and hypotheticals are inherently unhelpful because there's no limit to them. The short version is you cannot rely on magic items, and you especially cannot rely on specific magic items. Even if you metagame a particular adventure, the DM can change prescribed loot and someone else might want to compete for a given reward or treasure. Honestly, it doesn't even read like a rebuttal. It has absolutely nothing to do with the selected quotation. I'll simply end by saying your 5th-level Dire Wolf numbers look off, and something (perhaps several things) must have gone horribly wrong if you're healing to "keep up" during combat.
Regarding retaining species traits in Wildshape, I think there are some clarifications necessary. Species traits include Creature Type, Size and Speed, as well as the special traits.
Common sense says that, RAI, your Size and Speed change to those in stat block of the chosen beast, but RAW a human Druid continues to be a Medium Humanoid with speed 30 ft., regardless of whether they’ve turned into a spider or a brontosaurus.
Regarding retaining species traits in Wildshape, I think there are some clarifications necessary. Species traits include Creature Type, Size and Speed, as well as the special traits.
Common sense says that, RAI, your Size and Speed change to those in stat block of the chosen beast, but RAW a human Druid continues to be a Medium Humanoid with speed 30 ft., regardless of whether they’ve turned into a spider or a brontosaurus.
I more or less agree. As written, the feature isn't drawing a distinction between traits and special traits. We don't know if something like size and speed remain the same or if they become the beast's statistics. There's a lot scattered throughout the document that begs clarification.
Regarding retaining species traits in Wildshape, I think there are some clarifications necessary. Species traits include Creature Type, Size and Speed, as well as the special traits.
Common sense says that, RAI, your Size and Speed change to those in stat block of the chosen beast, but RAW a human Druid continues to be a Medium Humanoid with speed 30 ft., regardless of whether they’ve turned into a spider or a brontosaurus.
I more or less agree. As written, the feature isn't drawing a distinction between traits and special traits. We don't know if something like size and speed remain the same or if they become the beast's statistics. There's a lot scattered throughout the document that begs clarification.
Thanks.
My reading of this version of Wildshape is that the only features that are changed on entering Wildshape are your Strength, Dexterity and Constitution stats, features derived from equipment and any proficiencies which have a higher value on the beast stat block.
For illustration, a Lizardfolk Druid (WIS +4, DEX +2), multiclassed as a Monk and Wildshaping into a Hawk (DEX +3, AC 13) carries over its natural armour species trait (AC =13+DEX) and its unarmoured defence class feature (AC =10+DEX+WIS). It can then choose its AC from that of the Hawk (13), that derived from natural armour (using the Hawk’s DEX = 13+3 = 16) and it’s new unarmoured defence AC (10+3+4 = 17). With Combat WS, it can then also choose from its AC options in its pre-transformed state (natural armour 15, unarmoured defence 16).
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Playtest 6: Channel Nature is Dead, LONG LIVE WILD SHAPE (**cough** Channel Nature)
Well, there are a few ideas from contributors here that look like functions in UA playtest 6 (great minds and all that). We have some elemental damage moved around, some play functions with animals and plants, some spell recovery, Wither & Bloom etc.
It’s starting to flesh out nicely and based on the lack of outrage on forums, it’s not hated, but there are still some issues to be worked through.
Some wonky stuff between base and subclass:
L2 you can change into a frog and breathe water; Sea gains breathe water at L6 – more work is needed on it because adding a swim speed to a land based beast and it doesn’t get water breathing unless you case water breathing… um pointless? I think it’s a wasted level for Sea Druid
L3 Moon gains spell casting in wild shape, other druids gain it at L18 – this is broken. work out another way to regain health because a Moon Druid should NOT be able to be a healing support caster.
Using characters AC for Moon Druid wild shape AC will lead to AC shenanigans and “Mother my I” requests. It needs to be simplified and concise so there is no ambiguity
L15 Thorn whip for 300 ft., well that’s going to be interesting…
They are just off the top of my head
Levels 11, 13 & 17 are blank and need filling, what's your ideas?
Also i didn't want to talk Moon's AC here but i think i will in a bit, because Warden also becomes the prerequisite for Moon Druid because of the AC calculations. But please don't offer up odd combinations of beast + stuff, a fix needs to be clean and easy to interpret.
Well, water breathing affects a number of characters; likely up to the entire party and then some. And there are already some beasts, like the polar bear which have a swim speed and lack any Amphibious or Water Breathing trait. That said, I think you're missing a key detail: you have a swim speed equal to your speed. Your speed changes when you use Wild Shape. Now, picture a giant elk with a 60 ft. swim speed. Even if you aren't fighting in three dimensions, being able to fight normally (without disadvantage) while in the water and move at a blisteringly fast pace is cool.
By all means test it out, but it looks fun to me.
They're limited to abjuration spells, which from the primal spell list means mostly healing and protective magic like cure wounds, dispel magic, lesser restoration, protection from energy, and the resistance cantrip. They can get more from Magic Initiate or multiclassing, and that's okay. They're either limited to more cantrips and 1st-level spells, or they're trading stronger wild shape forms for increased spellcasting. The only offensive spell they have access to in that form is moonbeam. Hardly broken.
The only ambiguity over the new AC formula is whether the armor still imposes disadvantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks, and even that's a maybe. Remeber, there are no hidden rules. If the feature only says you compare the AC, then it's only noting those values. It doesn't care about the rest. And since we're here already, there's no roleplay restriction on wearing metal armor. A steel suit of scale mail is on the table, and I think that's interesting. Still, I'd like to see something about exotic materials in the next PH for players who want to keep that.
It's 330 feet. The spell's range is extended by 300 feet. It isn't fixed to that value. Which means ray of frost, for those Circle of the Sea druids, would have a range of 360 feet. That's three times what fire bolt has. Personally, I find it excessive. Ranges of that magnitude rarely come up in battle. But it also means resistance (if learned as a Primal spell) has a range of 310 feet. It's a fantastic, if arguably over-tuned, support feature.
It also looks like Circle of the Sea is replacing Tempest Domain. I like that. I played mine more like a shaman anyway.
i'll get to the others in a bit, but yes there is some functionality in water breathing, the issue with the swim part is around the sub-class limitations. This is not a Moon Druid, a Polar Bear and the Giant Elk are CR 2 creatures, not possible at the level you gain the swim add on to the wildshape creature.
the Sea Druid is just that - aquatic or coastal and the beasts associated with that terrain already have (in the most part) a swim speed and/or water breathing or hold breath.
so yes i do think that it is a bit of a wasted function which can be improved
it will play fine, with a Land Druid suddenly out in an aquatic situation, but thats not what it is and so it needs some work.
edit to add: also i'm going to say that the Sea Druid should straight up gain a Swim Speed at L3. A Sea Druid not knowing how to swim, if you haven't picked a species that can, until L6 is wonky.
from the playtest 6 Primal list
The Moon Druid is suddenly the support healer while still in Wild Shape. I stand my ground, this is broken when the other druids don't get this until L18, the only spell they share once they hit L18 is Power Word Heal [edit poor wording - gah, i think you know what i mean].
There are dead levels at 11, 13 & 17 that this could be shifted to for all druids.
Resistance has a range of touch, it can't be extended by the L15 ability.
HP and AC of beast wild shape is irrelevent at L5 and this is a good thing because it opens the field up to choosing a beast that has the extra abilities that might benefit the situation but,
Taking the Medium Armor list (because the Moon Druid must take Warden...) and some guidance from the DMG a L5 Moon Druid can achieve an AC equal to 15 + Dex mod. With the magic items available to this point, it might be Serpent Scale Armor 14 + max Dex mod. A Santa Claus DM might gift a +1 AC armor or a Cloak of Protection.
What was previously a L5 Dire Wolf, AC 14, +37 HP (43 HP maxed con + spell slot burn to heal) becomes a possible AC 15, 43 HP +11 and needs to cast healing spells to keep up, or become MAD to increase AC.
It becomes messy. Might be fun at much higher levels where magic items (or multiple magic items) start to fluff around with the AC, but messy.
Having a fixed AC for wild shape based off a natural armor, that increases by druid level progression and healing limited to self, for example burning a spell slot like the 2014 druid, also removes the multi-subclass self-confusion of I’m a moon druid tank but I don’t know if I’m going to use my Action to cast a spell like Heal or Restoration for the party, or attack.
It needs work
You don't need three posts to respond to my points. It's bordering on spam.
Having an always-on swim speed, without needing to expend a Wild Shape, is unequivocally useful. What it needs is language that bolsters anyone who already has a swim speed, so your lizardfolk, sea elves, and tritons don't lose out on a feature. And just because a druid belongs to the Circle of the Sea doesn't mean they need to have multiple swimming forms known for their Wild Shape. Having that swimming speed gives them options they otherwise wouldn't have. There are only two CR 1 beasts in the MM with a swim speed: the Giant Octopus and the Giant Toad. Letting them pick from any of the other six non-flying beasts in the same book is fine. It's harmless. The real advantages are (a) not moving at half speed in water, and (b) it lets them use literally any weapon they want if they're fighting in water. Even if you think it's just a ribbon, and maybe it is, it's a fine ribbon. None of the other 6th-level features for druid are that impressive.
You still haven't explained why you think a druid casting abjuration spells in a Combat Wild Shape is broken. In the 2014 PH, they could already expend spell slots to heal themselves. What is it about this playtest feature which breaks the subclass? And keep in mind, they still need to know and prepare these spells. They also can't cast every single one of them in a beast form. Both Protection from Evil and Good, if they took Magic Initiate (Arcane or Divine), and Greater Restoration are off limits. Even Armor of Agathys loses its luster because you can't stack temporary hit points. And all that is fine.
A previous UA changed Guidance and Resistance to both work as a reaction and have a range of 10 feet. There's no need to continue listing them if WotC is done playtesting them, and It's my hope that the changes are kept. It makes them far more usable without slowing down the game.
It is not a prerequisite for a Circle of the Moon druid to choose Warden as their Primal Order. They do not need Medium Armor Training to function, and I am taking this opportunity to repeat my earlier sentiment. It's nice just to see the expanded options. Metal armor has been a point of contention for a number of people, and there are canonical druids which can and do wear it.
I'm not going to bother going over your table, and hypotheticals are inherently unhelpful because there's no limit to them. The short version is you cannot rely on magic items, and you especially cannot rely on specific magic items. Even if you metagame a particular adventure, the DM can change prescribed loot and someone else might want to compete for a given reward or treasure. Honestly, it doesn't even read like a rebuttal. It has absolutely nothing to do with the selected quotation. I'll simply end by saying your 5th-level Dire Wolf numbers look off, and something (perhaps several things) must have gone horribly wrong if you're healing to "keep up" during combat.
Regarding retaining species traits in Wildshape, I think there are some clarifications necessary. Species traits include Creature Type, Size and Speed, as well as the special traits.
Common sense says that, RAI, your Size and Speed change to those in stat block of the chosen beast, but RAW a human Druid continues to be a Medium Humanoid with speed 30 ft., regardless of whether they’ve turned into a spider or a brontosaurus.
I more or less agree. As written, the feature isn't drawing a distinction between traits and special traits. We don't know if something like size and speed remain the same or if they become the beast's statistics. There's a lot scattered throughout the document that begs clarification.
Thanks.
My reading of this version of Wildshape is that the only features that are changed on entering Wildshape are your Strength, Dexterity and Constitution stats, features derived from equipment and any proficiencies which have a higher value on the beast stat block.
For illustration, a Lizardfolk Druid (WIS +4, DEX +2), multiclassed as a Monk and Wildshaping into a Hawk (DEX +3, AC 13) carries over its natural armour species trait (AC =13+DEX) and its unarmoured defence class feature (AC =10+DEX+WIS). It can then choose its AC from that of the Hawk (13), that derived from natural armour (using the Hawk’s DEX = 13+3 = 16) and it’s new unarmoured defence AC (10+3+4 = 17). With Combat WS, it can then also choose from its AC options in its pre-transformed state (natural armour 15, unarmoured defence 16).