You are using the logic "it doesn't say I can't therefore I can". Your "obviously you cant upcast it beyond the spell slots you have available" isn't obvious, because just like the rules don't say you can't upcast your at will spells it also doesn't say you cant upcast past the point of the spell slots you have access to. So if you can use hex master to cast hex as a 5th level spell then I can use mystic arcanum to take bestow curse and cast it as a 9th level once a day at level 5. No lie sounds like a lot of fun and broken, but it isn't RAW or RAI it is TRDSIC.
To answer the question of why it is written into the wizard ability. It is basically reminder text for clarity. The wizard is getting this effect late in their career so it is just there for clarity on how it is supposed to work. The lock on the other hand has been using the mechanic since level 2. Remember they also make magic the gathering, reminder text is very common.
Mystic Arcanum does have the line "choose one spell from the Arcane spell list that has a level for which you qualify". By limiting the spell to the lowest level, you do nothing but limit the choices from 10 spells to 2. I'm not sure that's the intent. And I really doubt that they'd make a free 1st level spell a capstone feature, because that's a thing that 2nd level invocations do.
Anyhow, I agree that the wording needs work and clarifications. We need to put that into the survey.
Choose a SPELL for a level that you qualify. You can cast that SPELL once per day without consuming a spell slot. It does not say the level at which you cast that spell. Only the portion of the list from which you can choose. Just like the Wizard example that you gave for signature spells, minus saying that it is cast at its lowest level.
And you may doubt that they would make a first level spell the capstone feature but it IS what they did. Which is why it is bad.
For some reason I had it in my head that it improved with your warlock level like the cantrips do; that's the trouble with trying to digest a huge UA document like this, but totally my mistake! Yeah in that case Hex Master is pretty dire, if it were cast at the higher level it would be okay (not amazing), but at the lowest level you're barely going to notice this.
I do think hex is a decent potential feature to leverage for the captstone; I wouldn't mind it being a lower level so much (it's free after all) if it were also tied to something more powerful, like the ability to boost the disadvantage onto other rolls a limited number of times. Hex being able to force disadvantage on a save at a crucial moment could make it much more clutch, and feel more like a capstone ability. Not sure on the best way to limit it though.
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I'm of the opinion that Hex should be a cantrip. Still concentration, so you won't use it all the time, but doing 1d6 to 4d6 necrotic damage once per turn and scaling on Warlock levels as Eldritch Blast does.
Then take it off the Arcane list.
As with Eldritch Blast it would make single level dips pretty much worthless for multiclassing, but reward people for persevering as Warlocks.
For their level 18 capstone?
Eldritch Master: You can spend one minute entreating your patron for aid to regain all your expended Mystic Arcanum. Once you regain your Arcanum with this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can do it again.
Is that quite powerful? Yes. Up to nine levels of spells recharged. But it's level 18, it should be powerful.
At some point, Hex should stop using concentration. Otherwise, it creates too much of a competition to actually interesting spells that you might use, and instead of using Invisibility or Hold Person, you'll always ask yourself whether it's worth it to lose your 8-hour long concentration on Hex.
I'm of the opinion that Hex should be a cantrip. Still concentration, so you won't use it all the time, but doing 1d6 to 4d6 necrotic damage once per turn and scaling on Warlock levels as Eldritch Blast does.
Then take it off the Arcane list.
As with Eldritch Blast it would make single level dips pretty much worthless for multiclassing, but reward people for persevering as Warlocks.
For their level 18 capstone?
Eldritch Master: You can spend one minute entreating your patron for aid to regain all your expended Mystic Arcanum. Once you regain your Arcanum with this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can do it again.
Is that quite powerful? Yes. Up to nine levels of spells recharged. But it's level 18, it should be powerful.
Love this, yes do this and I would be quite happy with the capstone AND hex as it is written.
I wrote this in the other warlock thread but an idea i just came up with.
1. Hex loses concentration at 5th class level of warlock.
2. Add invocations that debuff enemies more when hex applied, saves as appropriate depending on power level, poisoned, dazed, reduced effective size for shove features, reduced speed etc.
2A for "good" warlock options add invocations or sub class features that when hex is applied to an ally they gain some kind of buff.
3. hexer feat increae range, allow you to swap hex as a bonus action even if last targets is still alive.
4. Attack cantrips instead of being additional cantrips modify your eldritch blast options. They are considered a eldritch blast for the purposes of invocations, they otherwise cast as the spell they were but instead of one big attack as you level up they are seperate attacks like eldritch blast. So they easy one would be fire bolt, range 120' damage fire attack objects and creatures, 1d10 dmg, additional bolts at 5,11,17. Chill touch, that eldritch blast is rang 60' does d8 necrotic, stops healing, disadvantage vs you from undead, additional chill touch at 5,11,17. Don't allow it to work with attack cantrips that require a weapon .
If they're going to nerf Hex (or even keep it as is) it needs to be optional.
If it's an automatic spell that other automatic features tie to, it needs to be non-concentration.
(Also, the feature needs to cast it as a 5th level spell. I'm hoping that was the intent, but it isn't what it says.)
Yup, it will always need to remove concentration even if improved somewhat. Hexing or cursing people is about as iconic as you can get for a warlock type class, but if it requires concentration no one will use it past level 5 as its competing with fear etc. Even as a cantrip you can recast at will you wont use it in any fight you intended to expend resources. As the other options which require concentration are just so much better.
Another alternative, to make it more like 5e but less limited to short rests is to take the one from 5e, possibly increase its pact slots by 1 and/or benefit from some invocation (slot increase, slot recovery, etc). .) , but the most significant thing to make it somewhat less dependent and monotonous for lack of magic is that it depends on subclasses:
now they propose in the 5th AU, that the sorcerer can use one of the spells of his class only once... and if it is a free use of a spell of each level? (or each spell of the subclass)
This would reinforce the importance of the list of each subclass, and each level should have some variety to make it useful (for example, not all level three is direct damage to a target), giving you a virtual space from levels 1 to 5 (Or two if you can use each spell on the list once.)
With old warlock the duration increase appeal was the fact that you could short rest while keeping hex going and you would effectively have an "extra spell slot" which you could use on blast spells, teleports and anything else that didnt have concentration. Now the duration increase doesnt help. It effectively became a cantrip at level 5.
My proposal is level 1 one minute debuff that does the d6 and disadvantage. 5 scales to 10 minutes 11 scales to an hour and increases by a d6 and 17 becomes 8 hours and increase by 2d6. Hexmaster could make it permanent.
With old warlock the duration increase appeal was the fact that you could short rest while keeping hex going and you would effectively have an "extra spell slot" which you could use on blast spells, teleports and anything else that didnt have concentration. Now the duration increase doesnt help. It effectively became a cantrip at level 5.
My proposal is level 1 one minute debuff that does the d6 and disadvantage. 5 scales to 10 minutes 11 scales to an hour and increases by a d6 and 17 becomes 8 hours and increase by 2d6. Hexmaster could make it permanent.
Whether its a cantrip, a class feature or a spell as long as it requires concentration its not worth the ink its written on past level 5 for most people. And you can't wait until 18th level for it to lose concentration.
With old warlock the duration increase appeal was the fact that you could short rest while keeping hex going and you would effectively have an "extra spell slot" which you could use on blast spells, teleports and anything else that didnt have concentration. Now the duration increase doesnt help. It effectively became a cantrip at level 5.
My proposal is level 1 one minute debuff that does the d6 and disadvantage. 5 scales to 10 minutes 11 scales to an hour and increases by a d6 and 17 becomes 8 hours and increase by 2d6. Hexmaster could make it permanent.
Whether its a cantrip, a class feature or a spell as long as it requires concentration its not worth the ink its written on past level 5 for most people. And you can't wait until 18th level for it to lose concentration.
I disagree, but it isnt primarily used for combat at that point. It would be for the disadvantage on ability checks for NPC'S during social portions of the game
also, my proposal did not say concentration. That was why the duration was lowered, because it was no concentration at 1, but only last 1 minute. No concentration at 5, 10 minutes.
Hex upcast to 3d6 with no concentration would be an okay capstone, similar to the Ranger's Foe Slayer capstone.
The rangers capstone sucks, and you can't wait until 18 for hex to do what it should do from early on use no concentration.
I think being able to do 4d10+20+3d6 ranged force damage at-will, before crits and with no concentration, is a fine place for a caster to end up. And that's just with their action! But I'm open to other capstone suggestions too.
Hex upcast to 3d6 with no concentration would be an okay capstone, similar to the Ranger's Foe Slayer capstone.
The rangers capstone sucks, and you can't wait until 18 for hex to do what it should do from early on use no concentration.
I think being able to do 4d10+20+3d6 ranged force damage at-will, before crits and with no concentration, is a fine place for a caster to end up. And that's just with their action! But I'm open to other capstone suggestions too.
It is a fine place to END, but no one is casting hex from level 5 through 17 with your set up. Really weird play style change all of a sudden at the end of the game. So the road needs to be smoother is what Dude is saying. I presume
Hex upcast to 3d6 with no concentration would be an okay capstone, similar to the Ranger's Foe Slayer capstone.
The rangers capstone sucks, and you can't wait until 18 for hex to do what it should do from early on use no concentration.
I think being able to do 4d10+20+3d6 ranged force damage at-will, before crits and with no concentration, is a fine place for a caster to end up. And that's just with their action! But I'm open to other capstone suggestions too.
It is a fine place to END, but no one is casting hex from level 5 through 17 with your set up. Really weird play style change all of a sudden at the end of the game. So the road needs to be smoother is what Dude is saying. I presume
Pretty much, no concentration needs to come in early. And also if not per attack it needs to be 4d6 at 17th level, and if the capstone wants to match the ranger one it would be 4d10 as the rangers bumps to d10s which still would be a crap capstone or maybe 4d8 as the ranger without swift quiver isn't getting 4 attacks. Like sure ending up at 8d10+20 is solid, same as 4d10+20+3 or 4d6 or whatever it ends up, is just a really boring capstone. Capstones should be a epic end to your classes progression, not hey you do a small bit more damage.
You cant have one dude getting a free no penalty wish and the other dude getting hey you do 8ish more damage a round wooo. Not that the wish one should last, but somewhere between the lameness of the fighters 4th attack and wish should be the target. Really look at the rangers capstone. Its hey your capstone, the end of your epic journey of pure rangerness is you do 2 extra damage per hit. That is the ultimate summation of being a ranger, 2 extra damage per hit. I don't care if its two things, slide the fighters 4th attack onto 17th with its other perk, and give a real capstone at 18th. And give the warlock a real capstone. Like if you are doing pact magic which I prefer at 18th level those are now 6th or 7th level slots whatever is balanced.
Edit to add it is probably 3d6 because of the ranger and how they only get 2 attacks, 3 with dual wield or crossbow expert. So 3d6 to their 3d6.
While I think Warlock probably does need some major changes with the big move away from short rest limited uses in general*, I'm not happy at all with what they've done.
Warlocks are now half casters, but what they're replacing was really a pseudo full caster; okay so 5e warlock maxed out at four 5th-level slots, but if you could fit in two or three short rests that's actually a huge amount of high level spell casting (12-16 5th-level spells). Meanwhile they got almost the same number of 6th-level and higher slots as other casters thanks to mystic arcanum. Now they not only don't get mystic arcanum as standard, they get slower spell slot progression (don't get 5th-level spells until 17th-level), it's just too much to lose.
The compensation seems to be stronger pact boons to save an invocation on those (as some invocations are rolled into the boons now), but this still hardly balances for the big losses. So instead of eight invocations we get nine (or essentially 10), but to have mystic arcanum as we did before we need to spend four of those, plus a lot of useful spells we could previously get as invocations separately form mystic arcanums are now rolled into the mystic arcanums as well. In other words we've lost out on casting progression, invocations, and mystic arcanums all in one fell swoop; having more guaranteed slots is nice but it doesn't compensate for all of this in the slightest, and leaves the UA warlock worse off overall.
I dunno, this rethink needs a rethink IMO. Personally I think the move to long rest slots is fine in theory, but it's being handled all wrong; the warlock should get a custom progression. I'd like to see something like the following:
Character/Spell Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
Mystic Arcanum
Total
1st-level
1
1
2nd-level
2
2
3rd-level
2
1
3
4th-level
2
2
4
5th-level
2
2
1
5
6th-level
2
2
2
6
7th-level
2
2
2
1
7
8th-level
2
2
2
2
8
9th-level
2
2
2
2
1
9
10th-level
2
2
2
2
2
10
11th-level
1
3
2
2
2
6th-level
10 (+1)
12th-level
4
2
2
2
6th-level
10 (+1)
13th-level
3
3
2
2
7th-level
10 (+2)
14th-level
2
4
2
2
7th-level
10 (+2)
15th-level
1
4
3
2
8th-level
10 (+3)
16th-level
4
4
2
8th-level
10 (+3)
17th-level
3
4
3
9th-level
10 (+4)
18th-level
2
4
4
9th-level
10 (+4)
19th-level
3
4
4
9th-level
11 (+4)
20th-level
4
4
4
9th-level
12 (+4)
Basically the idea is that at each level you get 1 new spell slot at the highest level available to a full caster up until you hit 10th-level (two slots each at 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, 4th-, and 5th-level). From 11th-level onwards your lowest slot is promoted one level (or two if the next one up already has four slots) until you have only 3rd-, 4th-, and 5th-level slots. Finally at 19th and 20th levels you get one additional 3rd-level slot, bringing you to 12 total (four each of 3rd-, 4th- and 5th-level).
At the same time starting from 11th-level you gain access to the mystic arcanum invocation as proposed (but no longer applying to 1st to 5th-levels), enabling access to higher level "slots" with a total of four (one each of 6th-, 7th-, 8th- and 9th-level) for a total of up to 16 spells cast per long rest (ignoring at will invocations etc.).
The problem is this is way, way more complicated than pact magic was, just to make long rest casting scale better and in a way that's still unique to the warlock. I also have no idea how you'd handle multiclassing (maybe always handle the warlock last, applying the rules as give above but using combined caster level?).
*But this still feels like a lot of work when the real problem for 5e warlock casting is when people just don't take short rests enough; the better fix IMO is to drop short rests down to 15 minutes and give every class something that replenishes on a short rest, as we'd soon see short rests being taken way more often. D&D is loosely based on action hero mechanics after all, and you very rarely see action heroes take long breaks; they sit down, burn a wound closed with some gunpowder or staples, then they're right back to it at full effect, so this would make sense with that in mind.
I'm just chiming in to say what an excellent conversion this is. It maintains the reduced slots and choice of the standard Warlock without trapping them into a role that makes them a poor mans paladin/ranger or locking them into total eldritch blast dependency.
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Choose a SPELL for a level that you qualify. You can cast that SPELL once per day without consuming a spell slot. It does not say the level at which you cast that spell. Only the portion of the list from which you can choose. Just like the Wizard example that you gave for signature spells, minus saying that it is cast at its lowest level.
And you may doubt that they would make a first level spell the capstone feature but it IS what they did. Which is why it is bad.
Hex Master should be combined with the Hexer invocation. A new cap stone is needed.
For some reason I had it in my head that it improved with your warlock level like the cantrips do; that's the trouble with trying to digest a huge UA document like this, but totally my mistake! Yeah in that case Hex Master is pretty dire, if it were cast at the higher level it would be okay (not amazing), but at the lowest level you're barely going to notice this.
I do think hex is a decent potential feature to leverage for the captstone; I wouldn't mind it being a lower level so much (it's free after all) if it were also tied to something more powerful, like the ability to boost the disadvantage onto other rolls a limited number of times. Hex being able to force disadvantage on a save at a crucial moment could make it much more clutch, and feel more like a capstone ability. Not sure on the best way to limit it though.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I'm of the opinion that Hex should be a cantrip. Still concentration, so you won't use it all the time, but doing 1d6 to 4d6 necrotic damage once per turn and scaling on Warlock levels as Eldritch Blast does.
Then take it off the Arcane list.
As with Eldritch Blast it would make single level dips pretty much worthless for multiclassing, but reward people for persevering as Warlocks.
For their level 18 capstone?
Eldritch Master: You can spend one minute entreating your patron for aid to regain all your expended Mystic Arcanum. Once you regain your Arcanum with this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can do it again.
Is that quite powerful? Yes. Up to nine levels of spells recharged. But it's level 18, it should be powerful.
At some point, Hex should stop using concentration. Otherwise, it creates too much of a competition to actually interesting spells that you might use, and instead of using Invisibility or Hold Person, you'll always ask yourself whether it's worth it to lose your 8-hour long concentration on Hex.
Yes, but if it's a cantrip it'll always be in your back pocket when you run out of interesting spells to cast.
If they're going to nerf Hex (or even keep it as is) it needs to be optional.
If it's an automatic spell that other automatic features tie to, it needs to be non-concentration.
(Also, the feature needs to cast it as a 5th level spell. I'm hoping that was the intent, but it isn't what it says.)
Love this, yes do this and I would be quite happy with the capstone AND hex as it is written.
I wrote this in the other warlock thread but an idea i just came up with.
1. Hex loses concentration at 5th class level of warlock.
2. Add invocations that debuff enemies more when hex applied, saves as appropriate depending on power level, poisoned, dazed, reduced effective size for shove features, reduced speed etc.
2A for "good" warlock options add invocations or sub class features that when hex is applied to an ally they gain some kind of buff.
3. hexer feat increae range, allow you to swap hex as a bonus action even if last targets is still alive.
4. Attack cantrips instead of being additional cantrips modify your eldritch blast options. They are considered a eldritch blast for the purposes of invocations, they otherwise cast as the spell they were but instead of one big attack as you level up they are seperate attacks like eldritch blast. So they easy one would be fire bolt, range 120' damage fire attack objects and creatures, 1d10 dmg, additional bolts at 5,11,17. Chill touch, that eldritch blast is rang 60' does d8 necrotic, stops healing, disadvantage vs you from undead, additional chill touch at 5,11,17. Don't allow it to work with attack cantrips that require a weapon .
Yup, it will always need to remove concentration even if improved somewhat. Hexing or cursing people is about as iconic as you can get for a warlock type class, but if it requires concentration no one will use it past level 5 as its competing with fear etc. Even as a cantrip you can recast at will you wont use it in any fight you intended to expend resources. As the other options which require concentration are just so much better.
Another alternative, to make it more like 5e but less limited to short rests is to take the one from 5e, possibly increase its pact slots by 1 and/or benefit from some invocation (slot increase, slot recovery, etc). .) , but the most significant thing to make it somewhat less dependent and monotonous for lack of magic is that it depends on subclasses:
now they propose in the 5th AU, that the sorcerer can use one of the spells of his class only once... and if it is a free use of a spell of each level? (or each spell of the subclass)
This would reinforce the importance of the list of each subclass, and each level should have some variety to make it useful (for example, not all level three is direct damage to a target), giving you a virtual space from levels 1 to 5 (Or two if you can use each spell on the list once.)
One more argument in favor of hex as a cantrip.
With old warlock the duration increase appeal was the fact that you could short rest while keeping hex going and you would effectively have an "extra spell slot" which you could use on blast spells, teleports and anything else that didnt have concentration. Now the duration increase doesnt help. It effectively became a cantrip at level 5.
My proposal is level 1 one minute debuff that does the d6 and disadvantage. 5 scales to 10 minutes 11 scales to an hour and increases by a d6 and 17 becomes 8 hours and increase by 2d6. Hexmaster could make it permanent.
Hex upcast to 3d6 with no concentration would be an okay capstone, similar to the Ranger's Foe Slayer capstone.
Whether its a cantrip, a class feature or a spell as long as it requires concentration its not worth the ink its written on past level 5 for most people. And you can't wait until 18th level for it to lose concentration.
The rangers capstone sucks, and you can't wait until 18 for hex to do what it should do from early on use no concentration.
I disagree, but it isnt primarily used for combat at that point. It would be for the disadvantage on ability checks for NPC'S during social portions of the game
also, my proposal did not say concentration. That was why the duration was lowered, because it was no concentration at 1, but only last 1 minute. No concentration at 5, 10 minutes.
I think being able to do 4d10+20+3d6 ranged force damage at-will, before crits and with no concentration, is a fine place for a caster to end up. And that's just with their action! But I'm open to other capstone suggestions too.
It is a fine place to END, but no one is casting hex from level 5 through 17 with your set up. Really weird play style change all of a sudden at the end of the game. So the road needs to be smoother is what Dude is saying. I presume
Pretty much, no concentration needs to come in early. And also if not per attack it needs to be 4d6 at 17th level, and if the capstone wants to match the ranger one it would be 4d10 as the rangers bumps to d10s which still would be a crap capstone or maybe 4d8 as the ranger without swift quiver isn't getting 4 attacks. Like sure ending up at 8d10+20 is solid, same as 4d10+20+3 or 4d6 or whatever it ends up, is just a really boring capstone. Capstones should be a epic end to your classes progression, not hey you do a small bit more damage.
You cant have one dude getting a free no penalty wish and the other dude getting hey you do 8ish more damage a round wooo. Not that the wish one should last, but somewhere between the lameness of the fighters 4th attack and wish should be the target. Really look at the rangers capstone. Its hey your capstone, the end of your epic journey of pure rangerness is you do 2 extra damage per hit. That is the ultimate summation of being a ranger, 2 extra damage per hit. I don't care if its two things, slide the fighters 4th attack onto 17th with its other perk, and give a real capstone at 18th. And give the warlock a real capstone. Like if you are doing pact magic which I prefer at 18th level those are now 6th or 7th level slots whatever is balanced.
Edit to add it is probably 3d6 because of the ranger and how they only get 2 attacks, 3 with dual wield or crossbow expert. So 3d6 to their 3d6.
I'm just chiming in to say what an excellent conversion this is. It maintains the reduced slots and choice of the standard Warlock without trapping them into a role that makes them a poor mans paladin/ranger or locking them into total eldritch blast dependency.