I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
To me, its not really a question of it being OP or too strong.. Its a matter of class identity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love multiclassing and the puzzle element to it, it's great to combine features from the different classes.. But there's a limit right? Some features are supposed to be iconic to a class and with those its kinda underwhelming when 2 lvls is all you need to ensure maximum effectiveness of such a feature.. Sometimes even better.
For example, I think dipping into paladin to get smites on swords bard is super cool.. But its also kinda problematic that the 18/2 bard will now be better at smiting than your 20 paladin, considering how iconic smiting is to the class.
That doesn't mean that banning non-paladin spell slots from using smites is the answer, nor does it mean that I think lockig eldritch blast progression behind warlock levels is the best solution, but there needs to be significant mechanics tying into the later levels of these classes to make it worthwhile.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
Personally, I'd like to see a "Pact Initiate" feat that lets you pick one of the 3 warlock cantrips (and no other warlock benefits). Each would lose out on the 5th level warlock boost (unless you take it as a warlock to double-dip your cantrips), and it's a big deal to burn a feat on just one cantrip, but I think it would open up all the caster classes (and some non-caster classes) to a basic SAD gish approach, without the mess of multiclass dips. And I'm sure there are some creative non-warlock uses for Pact Familiar and Book of Shadows, too.
No Concentration for Hex is literally what the HEXER invocation SHOULD do. Instead it's just advantage on saving throws, which there are other ways to get advantage on saving throws for concentration which aren't limited solely to the Hex Spell. If Hexer was no concentration, then at later levels you are still going to be inclined towards Hex if it doesn't require concentration.
I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
If you're sorcerer, you get pact of the tome and get book of ancient shadows as your second invocation, giving you crazy access to ritual spells that you wouldn't other wise have access too with two additional 1st level spells and more cantrips. you then get a patron boon too, 1st level there are a few very good ones, like the fathomless to create tentacles as a bonus action, for example. However it's even more borked with Paladin, for Paladin it was definitely way too much, given Paladin traditionally does many things well (tank, heal, smite) but has weaknesses in ranged combat.
In the UA, it's a quick and easy way to pick-up medium armour proficiency, book of shadows basically gives you access to every 1st level ritual without even costing an invocation on top, it's also now also open to Ranger, Artificer, Druid, Wizard & Monk since Warlock now is not strictly a Charisma Caster... it's way more positive than negative.
Yes there is a "cost" to multi-classing, but there does still need to be balance to the cost/benefit ratio. In the case of Bard and Sorcerer it's only slightly less appealing to do the dip because those are two of the most overpowered classes in the first place, as near all full casters are.
To me, its not really a question of it being OP or too strong.. Its a matter of class identity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love multiclassing and the puzzle element to it, it's great to combine features from the different classes.. But there's a limit right? Some features are supposed to be iconic to a class and with those its kinda underwhelming when 2 lvls is all you need to ensure maximum effectiveness of such a feature.. Sometimes even better.
For example, I think dipping into paladin to get smites on swords bard is super cool.. But its also kinda problematic that the 18/2 bard will now be better at smiting than your 20 paladin, considering how iconic smiting is to the class.
That doesn't mean that banning non-paladin spell slots from using smites is the answer, nor does it mean that I think lockig eldritch blast progression behind warlock levels is the best solution, but there needs to be significant mechanics tying into the later levels of these classes to make it worthwhile.
Class Identity wise, paladin still has better defenses, especially in regards to saves and how it passively boosts ally saves as well. An 18/2 bard/paladin may have smites, but they definitely won't have the aura of protection. There was a reason why paladin 6 and 7 is so popular in 5E.
The image of a paladin protecting their party by warding off attacks and spells still gives the paladin plenty of identity. It bring 6/7 levels in when most people do not go past T2, cements this part of Paladin's identity pretty well. Plus, tier 3 onward, you start adding radiant damage to all of your hits, so they still have stuff to look forward to.
Also, some mixture of identities should be happening when you multiclass. You are delaying progression or even forgoing progression on your first class to become two or more classes at the same time.
Warlock had the unique feature of the short rest slots. The issue was the poor progression of those short rest slots and how some groups did not really use short rests. If you reached 3 slots mid tier 2 and 4 slots mid tier 3, it would have felt much better. Also, maybe instead of tying them to short rest, maybe have a feature to recharge them x number of times per day. Like say if an adventuring day was supposed to have 2 short rests, maybe instead of making them half casters, give warlocks the ability to recharge all of their warlock slots 2 times per long rest and adding some restriction to prevent them from being used during combat like the recharge taking a minute to do. This would let warlocks have a bit more control of their pacing and making it more flexible to accomadate more group styles while still keeping the uniqueness of their slots, which imo was the biggest part of their identity, and making it feel better when the group is thrown into multiple encounters in short succession. I felt like it would have been better to build around the warlock spell slots rather than replacing them.
I feel like the Warlock slots are far more worthy of being the big identify for warlocks and the thing that makes you want to play a warlock than EB or hex. Their Eldritch Invocations are also another point of identify, adding a decent amount of additional customization to warlock that other classes generally don't have. Expanding on invocation options, namely later level options, would definitely make later levels more appealing; though I do feel that making their unique spell slots more appealing should take priority over invocations.
Yes there is a "cost" to multi-classing, but there does still need to be balance to the cost/benefit ratio. In the case of Bard and Sorcerer it's only slightly less appealing to do the dip because those are two of the most overpowered classes in the first place, as near all full casters are.
I always found 5E's multiclassing to be balanced in terms of cost/benefit ratio, especially with ASI's/feats being tied to class level. I never had an issue with even the paladin/warlock/sorcerer multiclass, even in a mixed group of rpers and optimizers.
Its kind of a problem, imho, when a "class identity" has absolutely nothing to do with the actual class fantasy. Mechanics and lore are meant to be intertwined, not completely divorced. Defining a class as "wizard, but funky spell recharge mechanic" feels bad. That's how we end up with people complaining that the sorcerer is just living in wizard's shadow all the time.
I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
EB scales off of Warlock levels now, not class levels. There’s no point in dipping for EB.
I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
EB scales off of Warlock levels now, not class levels. There’s no point in dipping for EB.
We are talking about the 5E version and the changes One D&D made together.
I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
EB scales off of Warlock levels now, not class levels. There’s no point in dipping for EB.
We are talking about the 5E version and the changes One D&D made together.
A Sor 3/War 2 doesn’t have 3rd level spells but does have 2 bolts from Eldritch blast and that means hex goes off both times. You’re giving up multi target damage for single target damage. Also the build doesn’t even take away any spell levels. You still can get wish, but it’s just 2 levels late. In 5e your cantrip still scales at the same time as everyone else’s when you dip. That’s why some people are happy with the the change to Eldritch blast in the play test.
A Sor 3/War 2 doesn’t have 3rd level spells but does have 2 bolts from Eldritch blast and that means hex goes off both times. You’re giving up multi target damage for single target damage. Also the build doesn’t even take away any spell levels. You still can get wish, but it’s just 2 levels late. In 5e your cantrip still scales at the same time as everyone else’s when you dip. That’s why some people are happy with the the change to Eldritch blast in the play test.
2 levels late is a very significant setback, and it isn't something that occurs at the end, but something that applies for the rest of the character's career. I also believe it is a good thing that it scales at the same time as everyone else; the fact that multiclass builds often feel really bad at level 5 isn't something I find to be praise worthy.
You are gaining single target damage but it isn't game breaking single target damage in anyway. The change is very unnecessary and feels like it was more to deal with a perceived imbalance than an actual issue. While there are some cool changes like warlock not being entirely locked into charisma, a lot of it feels like a miss. Rather than making warlock a half caster, I'd rather they improve the feel of the short rest slots, like maybe instead of tying them to short rest, such as giving the warlock a feature to recharge their slots a number of times a day, just add some restrictions to prevent its usage in encounters like the recharge taking a minute to do.
2 levels late is a very significant setback, and it isn't something that occurs at the end, but something that applies for the rest of the character's career. I also believe it is a good thing that it scales at the same time as everyone else; the fact that multiclass builds often feel really bad at level 5 isn't something I find to be praise worthy.
What if we reduce the potency of the Eldritch Blast to d8 (or d6), but at level 3, for all warlocks, this potency resets to d10? (or as a summon option at level 3, this maybe allows you to choose whether to buff that, or hex or something else that has 2 to X summons to specialize in, maybe mutually exclusive so you separate those customization options.) as a reinforcement of the benefits of the agreement with the employer. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. thus removing the ease of taking advantage of the best damage trick by only taking 1 or 2 levels of this class, without turning it into total garbage for multiclasses.
2 levels late is a very significant setback, and it isn't something that occurs at the end, but something that applies for the rest of the character's career. I also believe it is a good thing that it scales at the same time as everyone else; the fact that multiclass builds often feel really bad at level 5 isn't something I find to be praise worthy.
What if we reduce the potency of the Eldritch Blast to d8 (or d6), but at level 3, for all warlocks, this potency resets to d10? (or as a summon option at level 3, this maybe allows you to choose whether to buff that, or hex or something else that has 2 to X summons to specialize in, maybe mutually exclusive so you separate those customization options.) as a reinforcement of the benefits of the agreement with the employer. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. thus removing the ease of taking advantage of the best damage trick by only taking 1 or 2 levels of this class, without turning it into total garbage for multiclasses.
Reducing the die isn't even close to fixing it. If EB scales by character level rather than warlock level then Agonizing Blast should be moved to a Warlock 7th level Invocation.
Just scale both the number of bolts from EB and the number of triggers of extra hex damage on warlock levels. That way single class warlocks get something that scales throughout the game and dips only get something that works in tier 1.
A Sor 3/War 2 doesn’t have 3rd level spells but does have 2 bolts from Eldritch blast and that means hex goes off both times. You’re giving up multi target damage for single target damage. Also the build doesn’t even take away any spell levels. You still can get wish, but it’s just 2 levels late. In 5e your cantrip still scales at the same time as everyone else’s when you dip. That’s why some people are happy with the the change to Eldritch blast in the play test.
You don't have to explain how hex works, explain why you think it's overpowered and needs to be changed.
You are wrong about it not taking away from spell levels, by taking 2 levels in warlock you are always going to be down 1 full spell level from a full casters spell progression. Yes you can still get 9th level spells, but not until 19, which is 2 levels later than a mono-class. The vast majority of games never reach/are played at that level, and talking about level 19-20 is mostly hypothetical.
Saying "just 2 levels" is really selling this short, it's an entire spell slot level lower for the entire game, which is a massive difference. When a mono-class is casting fireball and counter spell, you can't, and would just be getting stuff like shatter and misty step. While a full sorcerer would be doing stuff like empowering fireballs, and using animate objects, you are still casting hex+EB, and on the 2nd round if your hex target hasn't died, and doesn't die to your first round of EB, then you can cast quicken eldritch blast.
I'm not saying that Quicken EB+Hex isn't strong, it definitely is, but you have to give up a lot to get it. You give up a full spell slot level, and spell progression, along with being 2 levels behind on any other class features. This combo also requires both your bonus action and concentration and sorc points, making it a trade off with other high damage/value bonus action and concentration spells. When you start comparing it to alternative uses of concentration/bonus action at 1 lv higher spell slots plus meta magics, it no longer seems so strong. (Especially when comparting it to the top tier spells like animate objects)
Yes there is a "cost" to multi-classing, but there does still need to be balance to the cost/benefit ratio. In the case of Bard and Sorcerer it's only slightly less appealing to do the dip because those are two of the most overpowered classes in the first place, as near all full casters are.
I always found 5E's multiclassing to be balanced in terms of cost/benefit ratio, especially with ASI's/feats being tied to class level. I never had an issue with even the paladin/warlock/sorcerer multiclass, even in a mixed group of rpers and optimizers.
Generally speaking D&D is not a PvP game (even if PvP is possible), so balance issues don't get noticed as badly but it definitely unbalances a few classes and would be even worse with the latest implementation of Warlock that multi-classes with way more classes. Hexadin was definitely overpowered, and part of that is definitely getting the full power of Eldritch Blast, for Bard what they sacrifice for what they get is more in-line but for Paladin and Ranger it'll both make them SAD and give them that Eldritch Blast. This said, the Sorlock is a horrendously overpowered creature, since Sorcerer gets quickened spell, allowing them to bonus action cast a stronger spell and then use Eldritch Blast on the same turn, or if you're focusing a single target, you can Eldritch blast twice for up to 8 rays in a single turn, for potentially multiple turns in a row. Of course you don't need to make the dip into Warlock until after you've got level 5 Sorcerer, just to get fireball first, so it's not a tier 1 dip, it's more a tier 2 dip, unlike the Hexadin which is very much a tier 1 dip since need those CHA based attack and damage rolls.
The reason it's more inline for Bard, is Bard has a lot of good concentration spells that they actually want to use which conflicts with Hex and while Eldritch blast outdoes any other cantrips, the amount of damage it'd add isn't going to be equalled out with delayed spell progression.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
Personally, I'd like to see a "Pact Initiate" feat that lets you pick one of the 3 warlock cantrips (and no other warlock benefits). Each would lose out on the 5th level warlock boost (unless you take it as a warlock to double-dip your cantrips), and it's a big deal to burn a feat on just one cantrip, but I think it would open up all the caster classes (and some non-caster classes) to a basic SAD gish approach, without the mess of multiclass dips. And I'm sure there are some creative non-warlock uses for Pact Familiar and Book of Shadows, too.
It's called Magic Intiate: Primal, allowing the character to take the Shillelagh cantrip. That gives the character a d8 magical weapon that can use their casting ability. That's as good as you'll get with "Pact Initiate" and doesn't tread on the Warlock's toes.
It still doesn't get taken because it's competing with better options.
+1D6 (patron themed damage or force by default) when successfully make a hit roll (attack / Spell)
Disadvantage on first saving throw target makes per round. ----- I have used and seen disadvantage on ability check and target was not making any ability checks. Used mostly out of combat.
Only works on Blade pact weapons and spells with Warlock tag.
Maybe NOT make is a spell and just a feature?
DA on saves is uber powerful, way too powerful for a 1st level spell, it's why Silvery Barbs is banned at most tables IME. DA on ability checks while very situational can be really good, it synergizes great with a grappler, but even without that it can seriously nerf enemy counterspell if you are clever about it, but there is all the out-of-combat utility.
Yes there is a "cost" to multi-classing, but there does still need to be balance to the cost/benefit ratio. In the case of Bard and Sorcerer it's only slightly less appealing to do the dip because those are two of the most overpowered classes in the first place, as near all full casters are.
I always found 5E's multiclassing to be balanced in terms of cost/benefit ratio, especially with ASI's/feats being tied to class level. I never had an issue with even the paladin/warlock/sorcerer multiclass, even in a mixed group of rpers and optimizers.
Generally speaking D&D is not a PvP game (even if PvP is possible), so balance issues don't get noticed as badly but it definitely unbalances a few classes and would be even worse with the latest implementation of Warlock that multi-classes with way more classes. Hexadin was definitely overpowered, and part of that is definitely getting the full power of Eldritch Blast, for Bard what they sacrifice for what they get is more in-line but for Paladin and Ranger it'll both make them SAD and give them that Eldritch Blast. This said, the Sorlock is a horrendously overpowered creature, since Sorcerer gets quickened spell, allowing them to bonus action cast a stronger spell and then use Eldritch Blast on the same turn, or if you're focusing a single target, you can Eldritch blast twice for up to 8 rays in a single turn, for potentially multiple turns in a row. Of course you don't need to make the dip into Warlock until after you've got level 5 Sorcerer, just to get fireball first, so it's not a tier 1 dip, it's more a tier 2 dip, unlike the Hexadin which is very much a tier 1 dip since need those CHA based attack and damage rolls.
The reason it's more inline for Bard, is Bard has a lot of good concentration spells that they actually want to use which conflicts with Hex and while Eldritch blast outdoes any other cantrips, the amount of damage it'd add isn't going to be equalled out with delayed spell progression.
As someone who has played in groups filled with min/maxers, sorlock, hexadin, etc. are really not overpowered. Those quickened spells are going to cost sorcery points. Even if you wait until T2 for the warlock dip, you are still delaying future spell progression.
Speaking of which; delayed spell progression very much does equal out the EB damage. You are behind a whole spell level for the rest of the campaign, which hurts a lot. As bard, you are also delaying features like magical secrets.
Getting your spells on time matters quite a bit.
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I see people mentioning a 2 level dip for EB+Agonizing blast being too strong. Are people forgetting if multiclassing with bard or sorcerer, doing so also delays your spell progression? That is a trade off most people do not really consider, especially in a long campaign and it is not an insignificant one. Waiting until 7th level for 3rd level spells hurts a lot; and it applies to every spell level down the line.
Is it good? Yes, I am not denying that; it is done for a reason. But it is not broken and has adequete trade offs. 4d10+20 or (avg 55) damage is not game breaking at T4, and that is assuming that they all hit. When you first get to 17th level for that 4th blast, other castets are rocking 9th level spells when you just got 8th.
Also, you are still going to see dips. Pact Weapon still lets you make SAD paladins and melee bards (and medium armor), so that 1 level dip is still going to be pretty popular.
To me, its not really a question of it being OP or too strong.. Its a matter of class identity. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love multiclassing and the puzzle element to it, it's great to combine features from the different classes.. But there's a limit right? Some features are supposed to be iconic to a class and with those its kinda underwhelming when 2 lvls is all you need to ensure maximum effectiveness of such a feature.. Sometimes even better.
For example, I think dipping into paladin to get smites on swords bard is super cool.. But its also kinda problematic that the 18/2 bard will now be better at smiting than your 20 paladin, considering how iconic smiting is to the class.
That doesn't mean that banning non-paladin spell slots from using smites is the answer, nor does it mean that I think lockig eldritch blast progression behind warlock levels is the best solution, but there needs to be significant mechanics tying into the later levels of these classes to make it worthwhile.
Personally, I'd like to see a "Pact Initiate" feat that lets you pick one of the 3 warlock cantrips (and no other warlock benefits). Each would lose out on the 5th level warlock boost (unless you take it as a warlock to double-dip your cantrips), and it's a big deal to burn a feat on just one cantrip, but I think it would open up all the caster classes (and some non-caster classes) to a basic SAD gish approach, without the mess of multiclass dips. And I'm sure there are some creative non-warlock uses for Pact Familiar and Book of Shadows, too.
No Concentration for Hex is literally what the HEXER invocation SHOULD do. Instead it's just advantage on saving throws, which there are other ways to get advantage on saving throws for concentration which aren't limited solely to the Hex Spell. If Hexer was no concentration, then at later levels you are still going to be inclined towards Hex if it doesn't require concentration.
If you're sorcerer, you get pact of the tome and get book of ancient shadows as your second invocation, giving you crazy access to ritual spells that you wouldn't other wise have access too with two additional 1st level spells and more cantrips. you then get a patron boon too, 1st level there are a few very good ones, like the fathomless to create tentacles as a bonus action, for example. However it's even more borked with Paladin, for Paladin it was definitely way too much, given Paladin traditionally does many things well (tank, heal, smite) but has weaknesses in ranged combat.
In the UA, it's a quick and easy way to pick-up medium armour proficiency, book of shadows basically gives you access to every 1st level ritual without even costing an invocation on top, it's also now also open to Ranger, Artificer, Druid, Wizard & Monk since Warlock now is not strictly a Charisma Caster... it's way more positive than negative.
Yes there is a "cost" to multi-classing, but there does still need to be balance to the cost/benefit ratio. In the case of Bard and Sorcerer it's only slightly less appealing to do the dip because those are two of the most overpowered classes in the first place, as near all full casters are.
Class Identity wise, paladin still has better defenses, especially in regards to saves and how it passively boosts ally saves as well. An 18/2 bard/paladin may have smites, but they definitely won't have the aura of protection. There was a reason why paladin 6 and 7 is so popular in 5E.
The image of a paladin protecting their party by warding off attacks and spells still gives the paladin plenty of identity. It bring 6/7 levels in when most people do not go past T2, cements this part of Paladin's identity pretty well. Plus, tier 3 onward, you start adding radiant damage to all of your hits, so they still have stuff to look forward to.
Also, some mixture of identities should be happening when you multiclass. You are delaying progression or even forgoing progression on your first class to become two or more classes at the same time.
Warlock had the unique feature of the short rest slots. The issue was the poor progression of those short rest slots and how some groups did not really use short rests. If you reached 3 slots mid tier 2 and 4 slots mid tier 3, it would have felt much better. Also, maybe instead of tying them to short rest, maybe have a feature to recharge them x number of times per day. Like say if an adventuring day was supposed to have 2 short rests, maybe instead of making them half casters, give warlocks the ability to recharge all of their warlock slots 2 times per long rest and adding some restriction to prevent them from being used during combat like the recharge taking a minute to do. This would let warlocks have a bit more control of their pacing and making it more flexible to accomadate more group styles while still keeping the uniqueness of their slots, which imo was the biggest part of their identity, and making it feel better when the group is thrown into multiple encounters in short succession. I felt like it would have been better to build around the warlock spell slots rather than replacing them.
I feel like the Warlock slots are far more worthy of being the big identify for warlocks and the thing that makes you want to play a warlock than EB or hex. Their Eldritch Invocations are also another point of identify, adding a decent amount of additional customization to warlock that other classes generally don't have. Expanding on invocation options, namely later level options, would definitely make later levels more appealing; though I do feel that making their unique spell slots more appealing should take priority over invocations.
I always found 5E's multiclassing to be balanced in terms of cost/benefit ratio, especially with ASI's/feats being tied to class level. I never had an issue with even the paladin/warlock/sorcerer multiclass, even in a mixed group of rpers and optimizers.
Its kind of a problem, imho, when a "class identity" has absolutely nothing to do with the actual class fantasy. Mechanics and lore are meant to be intertwined, not completely divorced. Defining a class as "wizard, but funky spell recharge mechanic" feels bad. That's how we end up with people complaining that the sorcerer is just living in wizard's shadow all the time.
EB scales off of Warlock levels now, not class levels. There’s no point in dipping for EB.
We are talking about the 5E version and the changes One D&D made together.
D’oh! My bad. 😄
A Sor 3/War 2 doesn’t have 3rd level spells but does have 2 bolts from Eldritch blast and that means hex goes off both times. You’re giving up multi target damage for single target damage. Also the build doesn’t even take away any spell levels. You still can get wish, but it’s just 2 levels late. In 5e your cantrip still scales at the same time as everyone else’s when you dip. That’s why some people are happy with the the change to Eldritch blast in the play test.
2 levels late is a very significant setback, and it isn't something that occurs at the end, but something that applies for the rest of the character's career. I also believe it is a good thing that it scales at the same time as everyone else; the fact that multiclass builds often feel really bad at level 5 isn't something I find to be praise worthy.
You are gaining single target damage but it isn't game breaking single target damage in anyway. The change is very unnecessary and feels like it was more to deal with a perceived imbalance than an actual issue. While there are some cool changes like warlock not being entirely locked into charisma, a lot of it feels like a miss. Rather than making warlock a half caster, I'd rather they improve the feel of the short rest slots, like maybe instead of tying them to short rest, such as giving the warlock a feature to recharge their slots a number of times a day, just add some restrictions to prevent its usage in encounters like the recharge taking a minute to do.
What if we reduce the potency of the Eldritch Blast to d8 (or d6), but at level 3, for all warlocks, this potency resets to d10? (or as a summon option at level 3, this maybe allows you to choose whether to buff that, or hex or something else that has 2 to X summons to specialize in, maybe mutually exclusive so you separate those customization options.) as a reinforcement of the benefits of the agreement with the employer. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. This way the Eldritch Blast could scale per player level, but you need MINIMUM 3 WARCER LEVELS to get the current utility out of it. thus removing the ease of taking advantage of the best damage trick by only taking 1 or 2 levels of this class, without turning it into total garbage for multiclasses.
Reducing the die isn't even close to fixing it. If EB scales by character level rather than warlock level then Agonizing Blast should be moved to a Warlock 7th level Invocation.
Just scale both the number of bolts from EB and the number of triggers of extra hex damage on warlock levels. That way single class warlocks get something that scales throughout the game and dips only get something that works in tier 1.
You don't have to explain how hex works, explain why you think it's overpowered and needs to be changed.
You are wrong about it not taking away from spell levels, by taking 2 levels in warlock you are always going to be down 1 full spell level from a full casters spell progression. Yes you can still get 9th level spells, but not until 19, which is 2 levels later than a mono-class. The vast majority of games never reach/are played at that level, and talking about level 19-20 is mostly hypothetical.
Saying "just 2 levels" is really selling this short, it's an entire spell slot level lower for the entire game, which is a massive difference. When a mono-class is casting fireball and counter spell, you can't, and would just be getting stuff like shatter and misty step. While a full sorcerer would be doing stuff like empowering fireballs, and using animate objects, you are still casting hex+EB, and on the 2nd round if your hex target hasn't died, and doesn't die to your first round of EB, then you can cast quicken eldritch blast.
I'm not saying that Quicken EB+Hex isn't strong, it definitely is, but you have to give up a lot to get it. You give up a full spell slot level, and spell progression, along with being 2 levels behind on any other class features.
This combo also requires both your bonus action and concentration and sorc points, making it a trade off with other high damage/value bonus action and concentration spells.
When you start comparing it to alternative uses of concentration/bonus action at 1 lv higher spell slots plus meta magics, it no longer seems so strong.
(Especially when comparting it to the top tier spells like animate objects)
Generally speaking D&D is not a PvP game (even if PvP is possible), so balance issues don't get noticed as badly but it definitely unbalances a few classes and would be even worse with the latest implementation of Warlock that multi-classes with way more classes. Hexadin was definitely overpowered, and part of that is definitely getting the full power of Eldritch Blast, for Bard what they sacrifice for what they get is more in-line but for Paladin and Ranger it'll both make them SAD and give them that Eldritch Blast. This said, the Sorlock is a horrendously overpowered creature, since Sorcerer gets quickened spell, allowing them to bonus action cast a stronger spell and then use Eldritch Blast on the same turn, or if you're focusing a single target, you can Eldritch blast twice for up to 8 rays in a single turn, for potentially multiple turns in a row. Of course you don't need to make the dip into Warlock until after you've got level 5 Sorcerer, just to get fireball first, so it's not a tier 1 dip, it's more a tier 2 dip, unlike the Hexadin which is very much a tier 1 dip since need those CHA based attack and damage rolls.
The reason it's more inline for Bard, is Bard has a lot of good concentration spells that they actually want to use which conflicts with Hex and while Eldritch blast outdoes any other cantrips, the amount of damage it'd add isn't going to be equalled out with delayed spell progression.
It's called Magic Intiate: Primal, allowing the character to take the Shillelagh cantrip. That gives the character a d8 magical weapon that can use their casting ability. That's as good as you'll get with "Pact Initiate" and doesn't tread on the Warlock's toes.
It still doesn't get taken because it's competing with better options.
DA on saves is uber powerful, way too powerful for a 1st level spell, it's why Silvery Barbs is banned at most tables IME. DA on ability checks while very situational can be really good, it synergizes great with a grappler, but even without that it can seriously nerf enemy counterspell if you are clever about it, but there is all the out-of-combat utility.
You can get the effects you want with Eldritch Blast (in 5e) by taking a single level of Warlock, then the Eldritch Adept feat to get Agonizing Blast.
That still leaves you with 19 potential levels in your core class, and most level 20 capstones aren't worth going that far.
As someone who has played in groups filled with min/maxers, sorlock, hexadin, etc. are really not overpowered. Those quickened spells are going to cost sorcery points. Even if you wait until T2 for the warlock dip, you are still delaying future spell progression.
Speaking of which; delayed spell progression very much does equal out the EB damage. You are behind a whole spell level for the rest of the campaign, which hurts a lot. As bard, you are also delaying features like magical secrets.
Getting your spells on time matters quite a bit.