Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
If the issue is still wether Monks should be better able to support Strength builds then I'm in favour of doing it, as it's not like doing so will suddenly make them Fighters; aside from Extra Attack both classes function very differently.
There's also the fact that you currently can build a Strength-based Monk, but only by using the Tortle race; while that very much supports the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles demographic, what about the rest of us who'd like to play another race and still play a Monk that doesn't have limp noodle arms?
The problem becomes how do you make monks support STR builds. Dex is such a better stat compared to STR. So much so that my Dex Barbarian is okay giving up his additional rage damage, to gain better AC, better initiative, and an improvement in a more common saving throw. If you decide to make a Str based monk you would be forfeiting those things. So the monk is actually designed with two of the most commonly used saves as its primary stats. I’ve made attempts to make a more STR friendly monk and they are often received negatively. Also Remember Monk pre 5e did actually need Str, Dex, and Wis.
Although I would have liked WotC to do more with the monk I think your fixes are probably more in line with what WotC is willing to do.
I still think Hand’s Open Hand Technique should have no saves. Addle (before it was given that name) didn’t have one and Push and Topple are now weapon masteries that are just free, though Push WM is less distance. It’s nice that it isn’t contingent on using FOB but why is it more difficult than what anyone with WM can do? At minimum Push and Addles should be no save (Shocking Grasp doesn’t give a save to take away reactions. Unless that changes in the spells UA coming in the future)
Even though my idea of a monk goes against yours I still have to say it. As stated previously, in my opinion the monk is a warrior class with supernatural powers. Magic? Perhaps, but it could also be called life force or life energy. Kind of like The Force in Star Wars. And that is what distinguishes it from the magic of the other magical or semi-magical classes. Up to here I think almost everybody agrees with me.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Magic and supernatural are synonyms. It’s weird to me that people are getting caught up on calling what the monks do Magic. I’m not saying they should cast spells or work mechanically different than they already do. I’m stating by calling it Magic, life force magic, or inner magic we move away from Asian inspired ki while still acknowledging what it actually is, Magic. That doesn’t mean they cast spells. Again there are tons of things that are magic and have nothing to do with spells.
As a real life Army Veteran who has trained in BJJ, Wrestling, Taekwondo, American Kenpo, a little swordplay (fencing and hand and a half), and a little eskrima I have to tell you they are all martial arts. The base DND fighter is a martial artist. It’s when you add the magical element you get the fantasy troupe the monk is trying to fulfill.
On another note if there was a Unarmored fighting style feat that allowed you to add either your Int, Wis, or Cha to your Dex would it be broken.
...are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
yes they are monks.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
...are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
yes they are monks.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
for this exercise let's assume single-class (otherwise anything goes and the water gets murky). if you told me chun li is a monk because she regularly uses a 'flurry of blows,' yeah that makes sense. if you tell me guile is using ki because someone said so, that's less convincing. flavor is free and easily changed. a character with athletics proficiency and a cantrip (or magic item!) can also sling energy between spinning-bird kicks.
edit, forgot to say: every monk is a martial artist. not every martial artist is a monk.
The problem becomes how do you make monks support STR builds. Dex is such a better stat compared to STR.
That's sort of a problem in general, but I would say my up-thread suggestion solves it: don't base AC on any attributes, just grant an AC of 16 + (monk level)/5. Dex is probably still superior, but it's a lot closer.
...are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
yes they are monks.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
I haven't played any of the street fighter (nor mortal combat) franchise since their first releases in the arcade... but I don't recall anything that I would say was uniquely monk-like in their specials. I mean, if you had the right cantrips (mostly just reskins of existing ones), plus chromatic orb ... what are they doing that can't be done by an EK with Unarmed Fighting Style?
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
If the issue is still wether Monks should be better able to support Strength builds then I'm in favour of doing it, as it's not like doing so will suddenly make them Fighters; aside from Extra Attack both classes function very differently.
There's also the fact that you currently can build a Strength-based Monk, but only by using the Tortle race; while that very much supports the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles demographic, what about the rest of us who'd like to play another race and still play a Monk that doesn't have limp noodle arms?
The problem becomes how do you make monks support STR builds. Dex is such a better stat compared to STR. So much so that my Dex Barbarian is okay giving up his additional rage damage, to gain better AC, better initiative, and an improvement in a more common saving throw. If you decide to make a Str based monk you would be forfeiting those things. So the monk is actually designed with two of the most commonly used saves as its primary stats. I’ve made attempts to make a more STR friendly monk and they are often received negatively. Also Remember Monk pre 5e did actually need Str, Dex, and Wis.
Although I would have liked WotC to do more with the monk I think your fixes are probably more in line with what WotC is willing to do.
I still think Hand’s Open Hand Technique should have no saves. Addle (before it was given that name) didn’t have one and Push and Topple are now weapon masteries that are just free, though Push WM is less distance. It’s nice that it isn’t contingent on using FOB but why is it more difficult than what anyone with WM can do? At minimum Push and Addles should be no save (Shocking Grasp doesn’t give a save to take away reactions. Unless that changes in the spells UA coming in the future)
Even though my idea of a monk goes against yours I still have to say it. As stated previously, in my opinion the monk is a warrior class with supernatural powers. Magic? Perhaps, but it could also be called life force or life energy. Kind of like The Force in Star Wars. And that is what distinguishes it from the magic of the other magical or semi-magical classes. Up to here I think almost everybody agrees with me.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Magic and supernatural are synonyms. It’s weird to me that people are getting caught up on calling what the monks do Magic. I’m not saying they should cast spells or work mechanically different than they already do. I’m stating by calling it Magic, life force magic, or inner magic we move away from Asian inspired ki while still acknowledging what it actually is, Magic. That doesn’t mean they cast spells. Again there are tons of things that are magic and have nothing to do with spells.
Yes, they can always be called magic, but the ability to cast spells and having supernatural abilities are two different things. Supernatural abilities are the Psionic Energy of the Psi Warrior Fighter, or the manifestations of the Echo Knight, or the ability to go into rage. One could say that one controls magic and the other manifests it as a supernatural talent.
As a real life Army Veteran who has trained in BJJ, Wrestling, Taekwondo, American Kenpo, a little swordplay (fencing and hand and a half), and a little eskrima I have to tell you they are all martial arts. The base DND fighter is a martial artist. It’s when you add the magical element you get the fantasy troupe the monk is trying to fulfill.
Sure, but what do you think about this unrestrained eagerness of people that the characteristic of dexterity gives the impression of being skinny and without muscles. I also explained the difference between red and white muscles.
When I picture someone with a lot of dexterity I picture them with this physique:
Whereas someone with a lot of strength like this:
On another note if there was a Unarmored fighting style feat that allowed you to add either your Int, Wis, or Cha to your Dex would it be broken.
There are a couple of subclasses that offer such unarmed defense.
Yes, they can always be called magic, but the ability to cast spells and having supernatural abilities are two different things. Supernatural abilities are the Psionic Energy of the Psi Warrior Fighter, or the manifestations of the Echo Knight, or the ability to go into rage. One could say that one controls magic and the other manifests it as a supernatural talent.
Sure, but what do you think about this unrestrained eagerness of people that the characteristic of dexterity gives the impression of being skinny and without muscles. I also explained the difference between red and white muscles.
When I picture someone with a lot of dexterity I picture them with this physique:
Whereas someone with a lot of strength like this:
On another note if there was a Unarmored fighting style feat that allowed you to add either your Int, Wis, or Cha to your Dex would it be broken.
There are a couple of subclasses that offer such unarmed defense.
If they can be called Magic just call them magic and allow DMs and players flesh out the differences in the magics of their worlds later. Simple, clean and cultural appropriation free, while still allowing individuals to use whatever real world inspiration they want.
The whole muscle thing is weird because this is a game. In reality every attack would be a combination of Str and Dex. That even includes grappling and throwing someone. All real world combat is a combination of both in game statistics. That first guy isn’t a weak dexterous guy, he actually looks above average for his Str and just looking at him I couldn’t tell you if he is dexterous. That second guy is definitely Stronger and looking at him I can tell at least in his pumped up state has some limited dexterity. When he isn’t pumped he might honestly have extreme flexibility and mobility. I doubt it, but I do know a couple body builders who are very dexterous.
Also on the Unarmed defense my question is would it be okay to move it out of just for subclasses and make if a fighting style feat so anyone training in unarmed combat could pick it up?
Yes, they can always be called magic, but the ability to cast spells and having supernatural abilities are two different things. Supernatural abilities are the Psionic Energy of the Psi Warrior Fighter, or the manifestations of the Echo Knight, or the ability to go into rage. One could say that one controls magic and the other manifests it as a supernatural talent.
Sure, but what do you think about this unrestrained eagerness of people that the characteristic of dexterity gives the impression of being skinny and without muscles. I also explained the difference between red and white muscles.
When I picture someone with a lot of dexterity I picture them with this physique:
Whereas someone with a lot of strength like this:
On another note if there was a Unarmored fighting style feat that allowed you to add either your Int, Wis, or Cha to your Dex would it be broken.
There are a couple of subclasses that offer such unarmed defense.
If they can be called Magic just call them magic and allow DMs and players flesh out the differences in the magics of their worlds later. Simple, clean and cultural appropriation free, while still allowing individuals to use whatever real world inspiration they want.
The whole muscle thing is weird because this is a game. In reality every attack would be a combination of Str and Dex. That even includes grappling and throwing someone. All real world combat is a combination of both in game statistics. That first guy isn’t a weak dexterous guy, he actually looks above average for his Str and just looking at him I couldn’t tell you if he is dexterous. That second guy is definitely Stronger and looking at him I can tell at least in his pumped up state has some limited dexterity. When he isn’t pumped he might honestly have extreme flexibility and mobility. I doubt it, but I do know a couple body builders who are very dexterous.
I guess no one paid attention to the video I posted, and to what I write.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Also on the Unarmed defense my question is would it be okay to move it out of just for subclasses and make if a fighting style feat so anyone training in unarmed combat could pick it up?
Do you perhaps want to make the fighter even stronger and more adaptable than it already is ? Do you want the monk to disappear completely ? This is the way.
The whole muscle thing is weird because this is a game. In reality every attack would be a combination of Str and Dex. That even includes grappling and throwing someone. All real world combat is a combination of both in game statistics. That first guy isn’t a weak dexterous guy, he actually looks above average for his Str and just looking at him I couldn’t tell you if he is dexterous.
The first guy there has six-pack abs. Both of them are almost certainly body builders rather than actually specialized in being strong (except as a side effect of what's needed to be a body builder).
The reality is that everyone with high dexterity is really strong for their size. If they're really small might not be really strong in absolute terms, but even that hundred pound female gymnast is probably as strong as an average adult twice their weight. However, D&D is really not interested in realism.
The whole muscle thing is weird because this is a game. In reality every attack would be a combination of Str and Dex. That even includes grappling and throwing someone. All real world combat is a combination of both in game statistics. That first guy isn’t a weak dexterous guy, he actually looks above average for his Str and just looking at him I couldn’t tell you if he is dexterous.
The first guy there has six-pack abs. Both of them are almost certainly body builders rather than actually specialized in being strong (except as a side effect of what's needed to be a body builder).
The reality is that everyone with high dexterity is really strong for their size. If they're really small might not be really strong in absolute terms, but even that hundred pound female gymnast is probably as strong as an average adult twice their weight. However, D&D is really not interested in realism.
This is true, dnd is a simplification of reality. But if you think that a person with a lot of dexterity has no muscles, that is wrong. A person with a lot of dexterity just has muscles that are more directed in movement speed than in brute force. And if you have proficiency in Athletics you will not be able to be on par with someone who specializes in strength but you will still score well. If you want the monk to be strong, why not simply give them the experise in Athletics?
…so full of steroids it's a miracle they can even move?
Body building and strength don't necessarily go hand in hand, especially not if we're talking strength as in "actually useful for fighting at a professional level"; there are plenty of people who would absolutely demolish that guy every single time who look nothing like that, but they would absolutely be Strength rather than Dexterity build characters as they're more about strength of attacks than mobility or sophistication of form. Even your average barbarian shouldn't actually look like that, people just think they should because of artwork and Conan the Barbarian.
But all of this is ultimately irrelevant because what you picture your character looking like is theming; the key question people should be asking is "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Monk shouldn't be viable using Strength?"
Because at the end of the day, the mechanics are only supposed to be there to help support your character concept, and provide some measure of balance against other classes. Allowing Monk to be usable with Strength is as simple as decoupling Unarmored Defense from Dexterity, either entirely, or by making it a choice between Dexterity or Strength. It's a change that literally requires two words of difference ("Dexterity modifier" becomes "Dexterity or Strength modifier", done) and players now have more freedom in how they build their Monk.
Will it completely change the Monk class or how it stacks up against other classes? Absolutely not, that one change alone won't make your character a better front-liner than a Strength-based unarmed Fighter or a Barbarian. It just means that your Monk will be basically the same as other Monks, but using Strength instead of Dexterity as one of their main scores, it's still ultimately a Monk with the same special abilities and limitations. The only real mechanical difference is that your Deflect Missiles will be worse, but your grappling/shoving will be better, because the latter is currently still bound to Strength only.
It's certainly not going to undermine Barbarian or Fighter, or make them less distinct, so there's arguably no reason not to make the change. It's also far from a radical change; again, it's literally two words of difference, with no real difference in balance whatsoever.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
In essence this change (dexterity or strength modifier) represents the primary difference between hard (strength based) and soft (dexterity based) martial arts styles. This simply makes it easier to go either route without significantly changing the power of the class.
key question people should be asking is "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Monk shouldn't be viable using Strength?"
Disagree, D&D isn't just about mechanics, it is mechanics and theme. One might equally ask, "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Cleric shouldn't be viable using Intelligence?" or "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Wizard shouldn't be viable using Wisdom?" or "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Rogue shouldn't be viable using Strength?"
There is no mechanical and game balance reason for any class to use any particular attribute. Sorcerers could be cast spells using Strength, Rogues could stab daggers with their Wisdom, Clerics could call upon their deities using Charisma, Barbarians could slam their axes into enemies using their Intelligence.
Barbarians are STR-based because that is their theme, Rogues are DEX-based because that is their theme. Monks are DEX+WIS based because that is their theme. If every class must be SAD then monk should be SAD on Wisdom, then you can throw you secondary stat into STR for RP reasons, just like Rogues throw secondary stats into intelligence or charisma for RP reasons.
In essence this change (dexterity or strength modifier) represents the primary difference between hard (strength based) and soft (dexterity based) martial arts styles. This simply makes it easier to go either route without significantly changing the power of the class.
This is incorrect, hard martial arts do not primarily use body strength but the resistance between the ground and the contact of the blow through the stance or velocity of the blow. It is not about brute force but vector force, it is practically mathematics and physics.
Clearly this is just my opinion, but I think making the monk strength/dexterity would only make the class more complicated to implement. From what I see WotC can't even make a good monk with dex/wis, I can't even imagine them being able to make a dex or str/wis monk. If you want the monk to be good at grabbing there would be easier solutions than creating a system that accepts both systems.
Both are about vector force but the difference is that hard styles focus on the use of strength to apply that vector force while soft styles focus on the use of movement (dexterity) to create that vector with a minimum amount of force. This is why it’s harder to maintain hard style skills into older ages while soft style skills are somewhat easier. (Note, I’ve done both hard and soft styles enough to understand the differences in my 15+ years of martial arts experience)
...are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
yes they are monks.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
for this exercise let's assume single-class (otherwise anything goes and the water gets murky). if you told me chun li is a monk because she regularly uses a 'flurry of blows,' yeah that makes sense. if you tell me guile is using ki because someone said so, that's less convincing. flavor is free and easily changed. a character with athletics proficiency and a cantrip (or magic item!) can also sling energy between spinning-bird kicks.
edit, forgot to say: every monk is a martial artist. not every martial artist is a monk.
how do you explain guile's ability to send pure energy at his opponents? sonic boom. Guile doesnt appear to be a weapon expert, like most fighters. Just because he is an American doesnt make him not primarily a martial artist/ inner energy user
Chun li doesn't need flurry of blows to qualify, she can harness mass quantities of chi.
And this is also why I object to people focusing on the obviously super natural aspects to define monk. For a martial artist, they theoretically are always channeling energy even with what appears to be normal attacks. It might look like a regular punch from outside, but its actually an extension of their inner energy through the physical form.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does.
Wow that's... entirely uncorrelated with reality. With the exception of a few self defense styles, martials arts were developed either as sports or as combat techniques, and in either case were designed by people who were already strong and wanted to be able to beat other people who were also strong. There's a lot of mysticism that has attached itself to martial arts, particularly as they have become steadily more detached from real combat applications, but it's never been specific to 'weak people'.
Both are about vector force but the difference is that hard styles focus on the use of strength to apply that vector force while soft styles focus on the use of movement (dexterity) to create that vector with a minimum amount of force. This is why it’s harder to maintain hard style skills into older ages while soft style skills are somewhat easier. (Note, I’ve done both hard and soft styles enough to understand the differences in my 15+ years of martial arts experience)
Soft techniques are techniques that redirect the opponent's strength to one's advantage by exploiting center of gravity and balance. The ultimate achieved in soft teniche is jujitsu. Whereas hard techniques have a stable stance with the ground and exploit the opponent's movement and your movement supported by the ground so as to create a direct strike, but the strike is powerful not because of physical strength but because of ground resistance. kind of like going into a 45-degree pole tilted toward you. The force of the blow is powerful not because of physical force but because of the speed of the opponent's movement and the ground resistance transmission of the pole. One has to know how to execute a punch, it's not like just strength is enough to do it, it would reduce the eficacy by 50%.
But it is also true that physical performance helps, but as I said dexterity in dnd is a type of physical performance and therefore a type of musculature.
The problem becomes how do you make monks support STR builds. Dex is such a better stat compared to STR. So much so that my Dex Barbarian is okay giving up his additional rage damage, to gain better AC, better initiative, and an improvement in a more common saving throw. If you decide to make a Str based monk you would be forfeiting those things. So the monk is actually designed with two of the most commonly used saves as its primary stats. I’ve made attempts to make a more STR friendly monk and they are often received negatively. Also Remember Monk pre 5e did actually need Str, Dex, and Wis.
I agree with you ThriKreen.
Magic and supernatural are synonyms. It’s weird to me that people are getting caught up on calling what the monks do Magic. I’m not saying they should cast spells or work mechanically different than they already do. I’m stating by calling it Magic, life force magic, or inner magic we move away from Asian inspired ki while still acknowledging what it actually is, Magic. That doesn’t mean they cast spells. Again there are tons of things that are magic and have nothing to do with spells.
As a real life Army Veteran who has trained in BJJ, Wrestling, Taekwondo, American Kenpo, a little swordplay (fencing and hand and a half), and a little eskrima I have to tell you they are all martial arts. The base DND fighter is a martial artist. It’s when you add the magical element you get the fantasy troupe the monk is trying to fulfill.
On another note if there was a Unarmored fighting style feat that allowed you to add either your Int, Wis, or Cha to your Dex would it be broken.
Zangief = 100% Fighter + barbarian.
for this exercise let's assume single-class (otherwise anything goes and the water gets murky). if you told me chun li is a monk because she regularly uses a 'flurry of blows,' yeah that makes sense. if you tell me guile is using ki because someone said so, that's less convincing. flavor is free and easily changed. a character with athletics proficiency and a cantrip (or magic item!) can also sling energy between spinning-bird kicks.
edit, forgot to say: every monk is a martial artist. not every martial artist is a monk.
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tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
That's sort of a problem in general, but I would say my up-thread suggestion solves it: don't base AC on any attributes, just grant an AC of 16 + (monk level)/5. Dex is probably still superior, but it's a lot closer.
I haven't played any of the street fighter (nor mortal combat) franchise since their first releases in the arcade... but I don't recall anything that I would say was uniquely monk-like in their specials. I mean, if you had the right cantrips (mostly just reskins of existing ones), plus chromatic orb ... what are they doing that can't be done by an EK with Unarmed Fighting Style?
Yes, they can always be called magic, but the ability to cast spells and having supernatural abilities are two different things. Supernatural abilities are the Psionic Energy of the Psi Warrior Fighter, or the manifestations of the Echo Knight, or the ability to go into rage. One could say that one controls magic and the other manifests it as a supernatural talent.
Sure, but what do you think about this unrestrained eagerness of people that the characteristic of dexterity gives the impression of being skinny and without muscles. I also explained the difference between red and white muscles.
When I picture someone with a lot of dexterity I picture them with this physique:
Whereas someone with a lot of strength like this:
There are a couple of subclasses that offer such unarmed defense.
If they can be called Magic just call them magic and allow DMs and players flesh out the differences in the magics of their worlds later. Simple, clean and cultural appropriation free, while still allowing individuals to use whatever real world inspiration they want.
The whole muscle thing is weird because this is a game. In reality every attack would be a combination of Str and Dex. That even includes grappling and throwing someone. All real world combat is a combination of both in game statistics. That first guy isn’t a weak dexterous guy, he actually looks above average for his Str and just looking at him I couldn’t tell you if he is dexterous. That second guy is definitely Stronger and looking at him I can tell at least in his pumped up state has some limited dexterity. When he isn’t pumped he might honestly have extreme flexibility and mobility. I doubt it, but I do know a couple body builders who are very dexterous.
Also on the Unarmed defense my question is would it be okay to move it out of just for subclasses and make if a fighting style feat so anyone training in unarmed combat could pick it up?
I guess no one paid attention to the video I posted, and to what I write.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrHEd4uqm2A
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Do you perhaps want to make the fighter even stronger and more adaptable than it already is ? Do you want the monk to disappear completely ? This is the way.
The first guy there has six-pack abs. Both of them are almost certainly body builders rather than actually specialized in being strong (except as a side effect of what's needed to be a body builder).
The reality is that everyone with high dexterity is really strong for their size. If they're really small might not be really strong in absolute terms, but even that hundred pound female gymnast is probably as strong as an average adult twice their weight. However, D&D is really not interested in realism.
This is true, dnd is a simplification of reality. But if you think that a person with a lot of dexterity has no muscles, that is wrong. A person with a lot of dexterity just has muscles that are more directed in movement speed than in brute force. And if you have proficiency in Athletics you will not be able to be on par with someone who specializes in strength but you will still score well. If you want the monk to be strong, why not simply give them the experise in Athletics?
…so full of steroids it's a miracle they can even move?
Body building and strength don't necessarily go hand in hand, especially not if we're talking strength as in "actually useful for fighting at a professional level"; there are plenty of people who would absolutely demolish that guy every single time who look nothing like that, but they would absolutely be Strength rather than Dexterity build characters as they're more about strength of attacks than mobility or sophistication of form. Even your average barbarian shouldn't actually look like that, people just think they should because of artwork and Conan the Barbarian.
But all of this is ultimately irrelevant because what you picture your character looking like is theming; the key question people should be asking is "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Monk shouldn't be viable using Strength?"
Because at the end of the day, the mechanics are only supposed to be there to help support your character concept, and provide some measure of balance against other classes. Allowing Monk to be usable with Strength is as simple as decoupling Unarmored Defense from Dexterity, either entirely, or by making it a choice between Dexterity or Strength. It's a change that literally requires two words of difference ("Dexterity modifier" becomes "Dexterity or Strength modifier", done) and players now have more freedom in how they build their Monk.
Will it completely change the Monk class or how it stacks up against other classes? Absolutely not, that one change alone won't make your character a better front-liner than a Strength-based unarmed Fighter or a Barbarian. It just means that your Monk will be basically the same as other Monks, but using Strength instead of Dexterity as one of their main scores, it's still ultimately a Monk with the same special abilities and limitations. The only real mechanical difference is that your Deflect Missiles will be worse, but your grappling/shoving will be better, because the latter is currently still bound to Strength only.
It's certainly not going to undermine Barbarian or Fighter, or make them less distinct, so there's arguably no reason not to make the change. It's also far from a radical change; again, it's literally two words of difference, with no real difference in balance whatsoever.
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In essence this change (dexterity or strength modifier) represents the primary difference between hard (strength based) and soft (dexterity based) martial arts styles. This simply makes it easier to go either route without significantly changing the power of the class.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Disagree, D&D isn't just about mechanics, it is mechanics and theme. One might equally ask, "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Cleric shouldn't be viable using Intelligence?" or "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Wizard shouldn't be viable using Wisdom?" or "is there a good mechanical or game balance reason why Rogue shouldn't be viable using Strength?"
There is no mechanical and game balance reason for any class to use any particular attribute. Sorcerers could be cast spells using Strength, Rogues could stab daggers with their Wisdom, Clerics could call upon their deities using Charisma, Barbarians could slam their axes into enemies using their Intelligence.
Barbarians are STR-based because that is their theme, Rogues are DEX-based because that is their theme. Monks are DEX+WIS based because that is their theme. If every class must be SAD then monk should be SAD on Wisdom, then you can throw you secondary stat into STR for RP reasons, just like Rogues throw secondary stats into intelligence or charisma for RP reasons.
This is incorrect, hard martial arts do not primarily use body strength but the resistance between the ground and the contact of the blow through the stance or velocity of the blow. It is not about brute force but vector force, it is practically mathematics and physics.
Clearly this is just my opinion, but I think making the monk strength/dexterity would only make the class more complicated to implement. From what I see WotC can't even make a good monk with dex/wis, I can't even imagine them being able to make a dex or str/wis monk. If you want the monk to be good at grabbing there would be easier solutions than creating a system that accepts both systems.
Both are about vector force but the difference is that hard styles focus on the use of strength to apply that vector force while soft styles focus on the use of movement (dexterity) to create that vector with a minimum amount of force. This is why it’s harder to maintain hard style skills into older ages while soft style skills are somewhat easier. (Note, I’ve done both hard and soft styles enough to understand the differences in my 15+ years of martial arts experience)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
how do you explain guile's ability to send pure energy at his opponents? sonic boom. Guile doesnt appear to be a weapon expert, like most fighters. Just because he is an American doesnt make him not primarily a martial artist/ inner energy user
Chun li doesn't need flurry of blows to qualify, she can harness mass quantities of chi.
And this is also why I object to people focusing on the obviously super natural aspects to define monk. For a martial artist, they theoretically are always channeling energy even with what appears to be normal attacks. It might look like a regular punch from outside, but its actually an extension of their inner energy through the physical form.
Shoryuken (dragon punch) is not just an uppercut.
Wow that's... entirely uncorrelated with reality. With the exception of a few self defense styles, martials arts were developed either as sports or as combat techniques, and in either case were designed by people who were already strong and wanted to be able to beat other people who were also strong. There's a lot of mysticism that has attached itself to martial arts, particularly as they have become steadily more detached from real combat applications, but it's never been specific to 'weak people'.
Soft techniques are techniques that redirect the opponent's strength to one's advantage by exploiting center of gravity and balance. The ultimate achieved in soft teniche is jujitsu.
Whereas hard techniques have a stable stance with the ground and exploit the opponent's movement and your movement supported by the ground so as to create a direct strike, but the strike is powerful not because of physical strength but because of ground resistance. kind of like going into a 45-degree pole tilted toward you. The force of the blow is powerful not because of physical force but because of the speed of the opponent's movement and the ground resistance transmission of the pole. One has to know how to execute a punch, it's not like just strength is enough to do it, it would reduce the eficacy by 50%.
But it is also true that physical performance helps, but as I said dexterity in dnd is a type of physical performance and therefore a type of musculature.
Quick Summary so hopefully we can move forwards rather than going round and round in circles..