Then the monk is no longer ascetic and you've assassinated it's identity.
The ascetic monk died back in AD&D. I would note that I'm specifically talking about magic item support.
The core issue is that a monk should be balanced in both low-magic and high-magic games, and the only way to do that is to make sure they get about the same benefit from magic items as other classes.
As the above poster, I could see them allowing monks to add masteries to their unarmed strikes, and level-gating them. First one at 3rd level, second at 7th kind of thing. Probably from a limited list, like nick and/or topple being the first ones that jump to mind.
I think they've said they reconsidered the damage math and found it was lower than it should be. So, I expect a martial arts die boost.
Maybe a couple more spirit points added into the mix, but if they put some abilities behind weapon masteries, instead of having them require a resource like spirit points, they may not need more.
Though I doubt it will be in the UA, I'd love to see a brawler-type subclass. Basically, a str-based unarmed warrior type.
they better get topple and nick as well. people who say its broken are the just wrong and honestly piss me off.
they better get topple and nick as well. people who say its broken are the just wrong and honestly piss me off.
I wouldn't say that getting Nick as an "unarmed" mastery is broken, but it'd require a rewording of the Martial Arts feature to allow Nick specifically. By that point, it'd be better to just add the free unarmed strike to your main action and forget the weapon mastery completely.
The above is currently not true, mostly because magic weapons and armor exist (frequently not requiring an attunement slot), and equivalent gear for a monk does not.
I disagree, there have been lots of items added in more recent publications that can buff the monk.
Monk Excellent Magic Items: Belt of Storm Giant Strength, Gloves of Soul Catching (+2d10 dmg & healing & CON=20), Blood Fury Tattoo (+4d6 damage & healing + retaliation strikes), Red Wizard Blade (Non-attunement, 1d10+3d12 damage on each hit for monks)
What is the set of Fighter Excellent Magic Items that leaves them obviously superior to this set for the monk?
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
If you can't balance magic items against class features, then you're agreeing with me. There are so few magic items which are class specific.
There are lots of magic items that are class type specific -- magic weapons are useless to people who don't hit people with weapons, magic armor is useless to people who don't wear that armor type, and so on. The point is
A monk with no magic items should be balanced against a fighter (for example) with no magic items.
A monk with average magic items should be balanced against a fighter with average magic items.
A monk with excellent magic items should be balanced against a fighter with excellent magic items.
The above is currently not true, mostly because magic weapons and armor exist (frequently not requiring an attunement slot), and equivalent gear for a monk does not.
I've been over this. It's impossible because balance is an illusion. Hell, it's a mother-loving red herring.
The amount of magic items which are class-specific is a pittance compared to all the ones out there. You cannot balance a class which isn't reliant on equipment against any class which is. On an even playing field, they're inherently unequal. Ergo, you cannot rely on equipment to close any perceived gaps. This is what I've been saying for basically forever.
And it's a feature, not a bug. You cannot use magic items to balance them because, even if balance was feasible, it's a physical impossibility.
Maybe you can’t balance it perfectly, but you can still bring the variety of monk magic items up. Just add a monk-focused variant to each tier of +X weapon and +X armour, e.g robes and handwraps, and create variants in the same vein as the other various kinds of weapons, like weapons of certain death, and you’ve done it. That’s it. Monk has magic item parity with fighter. Is there any problem with this idea as a solution for one of monk’s problems?
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
Those aren’t numbers you can drop out the sky. That depends entirely on who/what you’re fighting. Evasion and all save prof MIGHT come into it. They might not.
You’re also going to have to show your calculations for that, against what they are fighting - whether its CR level or whatever. Also, gloves of soul catching are obscenely powerful, possibly the most powerful items on that list. The only other one of those items that increases survivability is the blood fury tattoo. A belt of storm giant strength is also much more likely to go to a fighter or other martial in the party than a monk, because they will get more use out of it. Same with a blood fury tattoo. Magic items means better to-hit, better damage outside of the necrotic, better damage on the reaction attack.
I’m also fairly certain you’ve criticised me for white-room maths on a different thread.
EDIT: As well as this, fighter has more ASIs and less dependency on not choosing feats. Monk with 20 probably used all but one of their ASIs to get there. Fighter could be done with ASIs by level 8, and have such wonderful combinations as PAM plus Sentinel, or shield master. AC20 for a fighter is nonmagical plate and shield. AC20 for a monk is the maximum attainment and also the bare minimum. Monk subclasses also don’t boost survivability. Fighter does, whether THP from samurai, damage reduction from Psi Warrior, Menacing Attack on Battle Master.. need I go on?
Fighters also have a much greater ranged capability, further improving their survivability over a monk, which with one exception has to use melee unarmed strikes to trigger their abilities, putting them straight into the front line.
You’ve also stated CON mod for the fighter - which could easily be higher, because they aren’t nearly as MAD as the monk. Why not 18? Why not 20? Would it ruin the white room maths?
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
That depends entirely on the campaign. It’s not an assumption you can make. What about low-or no-magic settings? What about REALLY high magic settings, where things like rods of spell storing are commonplace?
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
That depends entirely on the campaign. It’s not an assumption you can make. What about low-or no-magic settings? What about REALLY high magic settings, where things like rods of spell storing are commonplace?
Then what are we even arguing about? Monk gets far more and better defensive features than Fighter does. Thus have higher survivability despite a lower hit die, in low magic setting with no magic items (1/3 damage being from saves is standard for non-spellcasting monsters). Everything else depends on the campaign and the DM. Magic Items should not factor into class design at all because they are entirely up to the DM and vary wildly from game to game. If your monk is suffering b/c the Fighter has better magic items that is your DMs fault not the game designers fault.
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
That depends entirely on the campaign. It’s not an assumption you can make. What about low-or no-magic settings? What about REALLY high magic settings, where things like rods of spell storing are commonplace?
Then what are we even arguing about? Monk gets far more and better defensive features than Fighter does. Thus have higher survivability despite a lower hit die, in low magic setting with no magic items (1/3 damage being from saves is standard for non-spellcasting monsters). Everything else depends on the campaign and the DM. Magic Items should not factor into class design at all because they are entirely up to the DM and vary wildly from game to game. If your monk is suffering b/c the Fighter has better magic items that is your DMs fault not the game designers fault.
In a real session, monk does not have better survivability. Assuming legendary play level, monk can do.. what, with their action? Attack twice. Doing frankly pathetic damage. Then they patient defense, and feel completely useless. Or they go for a stunning strike, and it feels great for two turns and they they realise it’s all they can do. And sure, monk has good defence against casters. So the caster just targets someone else. If they do flurry of blows, they do their pathetic attack twice more. They don’t feel good because they have one viable option (stunning strike) and get out damaged by everyone else. Being a monk only feels useful if you stun all the time. That’s not good.
I agree, magic items shouldn’t factor into class design. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying, monk should get +X weapon unarmed equivalent, and +X armour unarmoured equivalent, that isn’t ridiculously over costed. Bracers of defense cost an attunement slot and they are rare. Fighters get the same bonus in starting equipment or for ten gold pieces. Things like weapons of warning and armour of resistance should also have unarmoured and unarmed equivalents. It would help monks get to parity.
Being a monk could be really awesome. You could be a glass cannon, mobile martial artist, crippling your enemies, all without conventional armour and weapons. Right now, it is the run away and survive while your party kills everything class.
Monk mainly needs a DPR boost in late game and for lots of their features to be less situational (and something to match Weapon Masteries now). They have lots of neat and thematic features already, it's just such shame you hardly ever get to use them because either they super situational or you don't get them until really high level.
they better get topple and nick as well. people who say its broken are the just wrong and honestly piss me off.
I wouldn't say that getting Nick as an "unarmed" mastery is broken, but it'd require a rewording of the Martial Arts feature to allow Nick specifically. By that point, it'd be better to just add the free unarmed strike to your main action and forget the weapon mastery completely.
Ya I would be happy with that as well. I almost expect them to nerf monk even more next ua though with how its goin lol
Though I realized above I'm focusing too much on mechanical details. So here's the big core issue:
Ok say we give monk exactly what you want : AC equal to that of Heavy Armour and no monk features require either Wisdom or Dexterity. Then how is this new monk different from a Fighter?
Monks as a Class should be dissolved and their features be spread out between a subset of Fighters and Rogues. Ninjas are really Rogues who wear form-fitting dark costumes and throw shuriken. The Psi Knight is a Monk-like Figther b/c of its movement abilities and obvs parallel to Star Wars' universe Jedi knights, the philosophy of which is clearly influenced by East Asian philosophy related to yin and yang. Goku of the DBZ universe is an unarmed OP Fighter who can shoot nuclear crap out of his hands. Second Wind and Action Surge are basically abilities using the same mysterious source of energy that 5E Monks use for their own abilities. Monks as we know it are basically Fighters and Rogues that specialize in using Ki, which Fighters and Rogues also should have, but we don't call it that b/c they don't "fit" the East Asian archetype enough to apply a non-English word like "Ki" to them. Action Surge, Second Wind, Evasion, and Blindsense should actually be limited use Ki abilities.
There is an conceptual barrier right now between the Monk and other martial classes b/c the game devs have too little experience reading, writing, and thinking about any of the many commonalities between the East Asian martial arts and the martial arts practiced in "the West." This is a totally artificial mental barrier in the first place. I don't see why we need to continue this farcically exaggerated difference-making by continuing to separate Monks from Fighters and Rogues.
I disagree I think ninja they are closer to monks since they require dedication and training similar to a monk .
they are more skill monkeys then a monk but a rogue can just be a mugger as well. so thematically I think they are much closer to monk, and the shadow monk is the closest you can get to making one in game.
"Rogue" is just a theme plus mechanics. From a mechanical standpoint, what do Rogues do? Well, they clearly benefit from having DEX-based skills. Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics. What else is included in the Rogue kit? Cunning Action to get a free Disengage, Hide, or Dash with a B.Action. Plus Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, Evasion, (skill) Expertise. These are all things that ninjas do. There is no reason you can't make the current Shadow Monk into a Shadow Rogue with pretty much the same abilities.
The main benefit of splitting current Monks into Fighter and Rogue subclasses is that players get to benefit from more HP and Action Surge (for the harder hitting builds) or from no-cost Dash, Disengage, Hide + Sneak Attack for subterfuge builds. So the people who want the current Monk to do more damage consistently are happier since they benefit from Fighter features while the people who want Monks to be more about sneaking around and learning secrets/stealing stuff (and care less about being tanking or attacking 3+ times per round) would be happier getting rid of the Ki cost built into the current Monk just to do Step of the Wind.
The current Monk has an identity crisis in large part b/c the devs wanted to split the difference by making the Monk a bit like a Rogue and a bit like a Fighter, tacking on this resource management thing called Ki, that NO other primary class uses. It's the MADness and Ki pool that makes Monks harder (not impossible, tho) to multi-class effectively. The people who want a tanky, direct-confrontation Monk would be happier with a more maneuverable Fighter, someone who can wear some armor and relies less on being MAD. The people who like playing assassin peek-a-boo with the Monk will also be happier since they can retain more Ki for Patient Defense and use ranged builds that don't care about a high WIS or a very high CON. If Fighters and Rogues also use Ki (or whatever they want to rename it to), then multiclassing becomes less of a lost opporunity in terms of Ki progression.
the flaw is you have less monk variation, and that the monk char concept doesnt lend itself well to these other classes. I actually play a monk class, like 7% of the dnd population and thats not what I am looking for.
Subclasses are exactly the same as main class with 3-4 features. That would be an inferior product for me. I don't want a fighter with 3 features out of monk.
there is nothing inherent to monks, or even the 5e monk playstyle that is broken. Its totally in the execution and its totally fixable in various ways, less drastic than destroying a class and its subclasses
Monk gets far more and better defensive features than Fighter does.
Yes, Monk gets a whole bunch cool defensive features that helps it against casters and archers. You know what these features DON'T protect against? Claws and swords. You know, the things that a melee oriented class would deal with the most. Now the most common defense of this is that monks are skirmishers, HOWEVER they are terrible at it. They need to either sacrifice resources + damage OR A Significantly more resources in order to achieve that. After 2 rounds your literally stuck there trying (and usually failing) not to die.
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
That depends entirely on the campaign. It’s not an assumption you can make. What about low-or no-magic settings? What about REALLY high magic settings, where things like rods of spell storing are commonplace?
Then what are we even arguing about? Monk gets far more and better defensive features than Fighter does. Thus have higher survivability despite a lower hit die, in low magic setting with no magic items (1/3 damage being from saves is standard for non-spellcasting monsters). Everything else depends on the campaign and the DM. Magic Items should not factor into class design at all because they are entirely up to the DM and vary wildly from game to game. If your monk is suffering b/c the Fighter has better magic items that is your DMs fault not the game designers fault.
In a real session, monk does not have better survivability. Assuming legendary play level, monk can do.. what, with their action? Attack twice. Doing frankly pathetic damage. Then they patient defense, and feel completely useless. Or they go for a stunning strike, and it feels great for two turns and they they realise it’s all they can do. And sure, monk has good defence against casters. So the caster just targets someone else. If they do flurry of blows, they do their pathetic attack twice more. They don’t feel good because they have one viable option (stunning strike) and get out damaged by everyone else. Being a monk only feels useful if you stun all the time. That’s not good.
I agree, magic items shouldn’t factor into class design. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying, monk should get +X weapon unarmed equivalent, and +X armour unarmoured equivalent, that isn’t ridiculously over costed. Bracers of defense cost an attunement slot and they are rare. Fighters get the same bonus in starting equipment or for ten gold pieces. Things like weapons of warning and armour of resistance should also have unarmoured and unarmed equivalents. It would help monks get to parity.
Being a monk could be really awesome. You could be a glass cannon, mobile martial artist, crippling your enemies, all without conventional armour and weapons. Right now, it is the run away and survive while your party kills everything class.
In a real session, literally anything can happen.
"Legendary play level" is meaningless because you aren't defining it. Do you mean Tier 4, levels 17-20, or are you talking fights against legendary monsters with legendary actions and/or resistance?
Then the monk is no longer ascetic and you've assassinated it's identity.
The ascetic monk died back in AD&D. I would note that I'm specifically talking about magic item support.
The core issue is that a monk should be balanced in both low-magic and high-magic games, and the only way to do that is to make sure they get about the same benefit from magic items as other classes.
Beg to disagree, since 5th Edition specifically moved away from player characters lighting up as Christmas trees when subjected to Detect Magic.
Interestingly, nobody here has actually refuted that. It doesn't matter how often I cite it. Nobody denies it. So what gives?
If you're hell-bent on monks have magic item parity with other classes, then they're always going to be behind because they start behind. Because while they're not dependent on gear, gear is a faster and more reliable way of growing in power. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you cannot rely on magic items closing whatever gaps you think the class has.
Not least of which because you cannot count on specific magic items being available. It is asinine that everyone else here is just ignoring this or pretending it isn't true.
Of course you can't depend on specific magic items being available. But what everybody else is saying is that the Monk's magic items should be just as dependable in availability as Fighter's. Right now, you can't depend on good magic items being available for Fighters, but you can more or less depend on good magic items being unavailable for Monks.
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Beg to disagree, since 5th Edition specifically moved away from player characters lighting up as Christmas trees when subjected to Detect Magic.
If you look at actual magic item availability in adventures, not to mention real play.... that was more an aspiration than an achievement. The reality is that, while magic items are less impactful on balance in 5e than they were in 3e, they're still quite impactful.
Not least of which because you cannot count on specific magic items being available. It is asinine that everyone else here is just ignoring this or pretending it isn't true.
High magic item games are rarely entirely random; they often have things like magic shops.
you cannot rely on magic items closing whatever gaps you think the class has.
Where are you getting this idea that anyone wants the Monk class to remain weak and get magic items instead? I don't think anybody is asking for that.
What people want is the Monk class to be balanced against other classes, but to also have comparable magic item potential (both availability and strength). Now obviously balancing the class is the priority, because that affects both low and high magic settings, but if they don't also fix magic item availability (and usefulness) for Monks then Monks will remain screwed in any campaign that hands out first party magic items (randomly or otherwise doesn't matter, if the selection for the Monk is specifically worse either way).
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I mean, beyond dropping the Dragonhide Belt into the core pool and making +X unarmed weapons, how much additional magic item support do Monks need compared to Fighters or Barbarians? I know there's a few nice armors, but I want to say about half of them are Heavy (including nearly all the Legendary ones) so that leaves Barbarians in the cold too and makes it more a case of "this is something special Fighters get", and there's already things like the Bracers of Defense or a decent selection of magic cloaks to choose from. At most, they could maybe make it an optional rule or something that you can't use magic armor and a magic cloak at the same time, if you want to be that aggressive about policing parity of magic item options, but I'm not sure the game really needs that kind of active throttling on options; the fact is that Monks do have options available to them. On the weapon end, it says right there in the DMG that the DM can change a magic weapon's type without creating issues, so there's nothing they're truly locked out of there unless it's a class-specific weapon, and there's not many of those (and none exclusive to Fighters that comes to mind).
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The ascetic monk died back in AD&D. I would note that I'm specifically talking about magic item support.
The core issue is that a monk should be balanced in both low-magic and high-magic games, and the only way to do that is to make sure they get about the same benefit from magic items as other classes.
they better get topple and nick as well. people who say its broken are the just wrong and honestly piss me off.
I wouldn't say that getting Nick as an "unarmed" mastery is broken, but it'd require a rewording of the Martial Arts feature to allow Nick specifically. By that point, it'd be better to just add the free unarmed strike to your main action and forget the weapon mastery completely.
Five legendary magic items. You need a much broader variety to balance monk out with fighter. Monk needs non-attunement AC bonus equipment that doesn’t count as armour, and it needs non-attunement to-hit and damage bonus increases, like the fighter gets. You probably will only see one of those max, in a high level campaign, which most people don’t reach.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Maybe you can’t balance it perfectly, but you can still bring the variety of monk magic items up. Just add a monk-focused variant to each tier of +X weapon and +X armour, e.g robes and handwraps, and create variants in the same vein as the other various kinds of weapons, like weapons of certain death, and you’ve done it. That’s it. Monk has magic item parity with fighter. Is there any problem with this idea as a solution for one of monk’s problems?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Sigh...
Fighter with AC 20 + CON 3 = 2 rounds of survival at legendary play levels, with AC 23 that's 2.3 rounds, with AC 26 that's 2.7
Monk with AC 20 = 2.1 round of survival at legendary play levels (because of proficiency in all saves + Evasion), with the Gloves of Soul Catching it's 3.0 rounds. If we also give them AC 26 it's 4.1 rounds
And that's just assuming 1/3 of damage originates from saves at legendary levels, which is probably an underestimate since very very often you'll be fighting mages at those levels not brutes.
Those aren’t numbers you can drop out the sky. That depends entirely on who/what you’re fighting. Evasion and all save prof MIGHT come into it. They might not.
You’re also going to have to show your calculations for that, against what they are fighting - whether its CR level or whatever. Also, gloves of soul catching are obscenely powerful, possibly the most powerful items on that list. The only other one of those items that increases survivability is the blood fury tattoo. A belt of storm giant strength is also much more likely to go to a fighter or other martial in the party than a monk, because they will get more use out of it. Same with a blood fury tattoo. Magic items means better to-hit, better damage outside of the necrotic, better damage on the reaction attack.
I’m also fairly certain you’ve criticised me for white-room maths on a different thread.
EDIT: As well as this, fighter has more ASIs and less dependency on not choosing feats. Monk with 20 probably used all but one of their ASIs to get there. Fighter could be done with ASIs by level 8, and have such wonderful combinations as PAM plus Sentinel, or shield master. AC20 for a fighter is nonmagical plate and shield. AC20 for a monk is the maximum attainment and also the bare minimum. Monk subclasses also don’t boost survivability. Fighter does, whether THP from samurai, damage reduction from Psi Warrior, Menacing Attack on Battle Master.. need I go on?
Fighters also have a much greater ranged capability, further improving their survivability over a monk, which with one exception has to use melee unarmed strikes to trigger their abilities, putting them straight into the front line.
You’ve also stated CON mod for the fighter - which could easily be higher, because they aren’t nearly as MAD as the monk. Why not 18? Why not 20? Would it ruin the white room maths?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
That depends entirely on the campaign. It’s not an assumption you can make. What about low-or no-magic settings? What about REALLY high magic settings, where things like rods of spell storing are commonplace?
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Then what are we even arguing about? Monk gets far more and better defensive features than Fighter does. Thus have higher survivability despite a lower hit die, in low magic setting with no magic items (1/3 damage being from saves is standard for non-spellcasting monsters). Everything else depends on the campaign and the DM. Magic Items should not factor into class design at all because they are entirely up to the DM and vary wildly from game to game. If your monk is suffering b/c the Fighter has better magic items that is your DMs fault not the game designers fault.
In a real session, monk does not have better survivability. Assuming legendary play level, monk can do.. what, with their action? Attack twice. Doing frankly pathetic damage. Then they patient defense, and feel completely useless. Or they go for a stunning strike, and it feels great for two turns and they they realise it’s all they can do. And sure, monk has good defence against casters. So the caster just targets someone else. If they do flurry of blows, they do their pathetic attack twice more. They don’t feel good because they have one viable option (stunning strike) and get out damaged by everyone else. Being a monk only feels useful if you stun all the time. That’s not good.
I agree, magic items shouldn’t factor into class design. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying, monk should get +X weapon unarmed equivalent, and +X armour unarmoured equivalent, that isn’t ridiculously over costed. Bracers of defense cost an attunement slot and they are rare. Fighters get the same bonus in starting equipment or for ten gold pieces. Things like weapons of warning and armour of resistance should also have unarmoured and unarmed equivalents. It would help monks get to parity.
Being a monk could be really awesome. You could be a glass cannon, mobile martial artist, crippling your enemies, all without conventional armour and weapons. Right now, it is the run away and survive while your party kills everything class.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Monk mainly needs a DPR boost in late game and for lots of their features to be less situational (and something to match Weapon Masteries now). They have lots of neat and thematic features already, it's just such shame you hardly ever get to use them because either they super situational or you don't get them until really high level.
Ya I would be happy with that as well. I almost expect them to nerf monk even more next ua though with how its goin lol
the flaw is you have less monk variation, and that the monk char concept doesnt lend itself well to these other classes. I actually play a monk class, like 7% of the dnd population and thats not what I am looking for.
Subclasses are exactly the same as main class with 3-4 features. That would be an inferior product for me. I don't want a fighter with 3 features out of monk.
there is nothing inherent to monks, or even the 5e monk playstyle that is broken. Its totally in the execution and its totally fixable in various ways, less drastic than destroying a class and its subclasses
Yes, Monk gets a whole bunch cool defensive features that helps it against casters and archers. You know what these features DON'T protect against? Claws and swords. You know, the things that a melee oriented class would deal with the most. Now the most common defense of this is that monks are skirmishers, HOWEVER they are terrible at it. They need to either sacrifice resources + damage OR A Significantly more resources in order to achieve that. After 2 rounds your literally stuck there trying (and usually failing) not to die.
In a real session, literally anything can happen.
"Legendary play level" is meaningless because you aren't defining it. Do you mean Tier 4, levels 17-20, or are you talking fights against legendary monsters with legendary actions and/or resistance?
You're theorycrafting; badly.
Beg to disagree, since 5th Edition specifically moved away from player characters lighting up as Christmas trees when subjected to Detect Magic.
Interestingly, nobody here has actually refuted that. It doesn't matter how often I cite it. Nobody denies it. So what gives?
If you're hell-bent on monks have magic item parity with other classes, then they're always going to be behind because they start behind. Because while they're not dependent on gear, gear is a faster and more reliable way of growing in power. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you cannot rely on magic items closing whatever gaps you think the class has.
Not least of which because you cannot count on specific magic items being available. It is asinine that everyone else here is just ignoring this or pretending it isn't true.
Of course you can't depend on specific magic items being available. But what everybody else is saying is that the Monk's magic items should be just as dependable in availability as Fighter's. Right now, you can't depend on good magic items being available for Fighters, but you can more or less depend on good magic items being unavailable for Monks.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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If you look at actual magic item availability in adventures, not to mention real play.... that was more an aspiration than an achievement. The reality is that, while magic items are less impactful on balance in 5e than they were in 3e, they're still quite impactful.
What gives is that it's completely irrelevant.
Um... a first level character does not generally have any magic items regardless of class.
High magic item games are rarely entirely random; they often have things like magic shops.
Where are you getting this idea that anyone wants the Monk class to remain weak and get magic items instead? I don't think anybody is asking for that.
What people want is the Monk class to be balanced against other classes, but to also have comparable magic item potential (both availability and strength). Now obviously balancing the class is the priority, because that affects both low and high magic settings, but if they don't also fix magic item availability (and usefulness) for Monks then Monks will remain screwed in any campaign that hands out first party magic items (randomly or otherwise doesn't matter, if the selection for the Monk is specifically worse either way).
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I mean, beyond dropping the Dragonhide Belt into the core pool and making +X unarmed weapons, how much additional magic item support do Monks need compared to Fighters or Barbarians? I know there's a few nice armors, but I want to say about half of them are Heavy (including nearly all the Legendary ones) so that leaves Barbarians in the cold too and makes it more a case of "this is something special Fighters get", and there's already things like the Bracers of Defense or a decent selection of magic cloaks to choose from. At most, they could maybe make it an optional rule or something that you can't use magic armor and a magic cloak at the same time, if you want to be that aggressive about policing parity of magic item options, but I'm not sure the game really needs that kind of active throttling on options; the fact is that Monks do have options available to them. On the weapon end, it says right there in the DMG that the DM can change a magic weapon's type without creating issues, so there's nothing they're truly locked out of there unless it's a class-specific weapon, and there's not many of those (and none exclusive to Fighters that comes to mind).