Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
I am convinced that the true essence of the monk is movement and the ability to reach places that other classes would be complicated or cost due to the use of spells. Although limited by the fact that it has a melee/skirmish combat style, it still has the ability to reach flying enemies by running through the air or up walls. The monk should be SPEED AND unconventional MOVEMENT. This is my point of view, at least I think this would make it different from other classes.
As for resources and its use, having decreased its use in SS is already an improvement, but I think it can be done better. But the biggest problem is the freedom of movement and attack that allows him to be a true melee/skirmish warrior. These are the points I tried to fix in my PDF.
Politely, I'm going to focus on the PHB/1D&D Monk for criticism so I won't be commenting on your variant.
The problem I have with this idea of "Monks get SPEEEED!" is that without damage output to capitalize on when they arrive, it doesn't really mean anything.
I hear people refer to Monks as "skirmishers." But the problem is that traditional skirmishing units were incredibly dangerous if the defending force didn't react to them. A loose formation ranging unit couldn't take on a wall of massed infantry but an ambush against unprepared back line units would be devastating and could knock entire regiments out of the fight.
You've probably heard of the Charge of the Light Brigade, the famous event when British Light Cavalry charged at full speed into the teeth of a heavily fortified defensive position, assaulted a battery of artillery, and fled back after losing their entire command strucure and almost 400 soldiers of a 600 man force.
The reason that poem is so famous isn't just because of the bravery and determination of the soldiers despite horrific casualties and command incompetance. It's because after all of that death and destruction and decapitation of the leading officers on the charge in, they reached the artillery line and shattered it. The Russians in the assaulted positions were forced to retreat and only the hesitance of the heavier British cavalry brigade that should have followed them was the line not taken and the enemy routed entirely from the position.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
This leaves the only real skirmishers for this sort of work as the Rogue and the Ranger, who have features that let them hide in terrain, bypass or avoid enemies without sacrificing damage, and do big burst damage once they contact their targets. So if the skirmishing position is being performed better by other classes....
What now with the Monk?
Of course no problem. The fact that I posted my own variation of the Monaco class is that English is not my forte and there are solutions in this varainte that could solve many problematic aspects, from movement, dpr, defense and resource consumption. Of course, it always remains my personal view of the monk. But I think movement speed and unarmed and unarmored combat are important aspects of the monk that set it apart from other classes. As explained before, there are already many classes that can be defined as spiritual/magical/supernatural/... warriors, so the monk cannot be defined by this aspect alone.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
I, too, think that the game maps cannot be so large as to handle war-scale combat; it would be complicated. Especially the movement of the monk is not so off-scale compared to the rest of the other classes. When I meant speed, I never said to enhance its speed, but simply to make it more mobile and free from the problems of attacks of opportunity.
However, as far as I think, Toople, although a small step in the right direction, this is not enough to function as a skirmish class. Moving FoB into the action would be a soluion, but one that would benefit the fighter too much. So I thought of this other solution:
MARTIAL ARTS - Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
Ki - Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Force point to take both the Disengage and Dash actions as a Bonus Action, and your step is so light that for the turn you can run through the air.
Unarmored Movement. Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor, you can take the Dash or Disengage action as a bonus action on your turn.
Acrobatic Movement. While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. If you end your turn in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface, you can use your bonus action to hold your position and not fall until the end of your next turn.
Then I modified FoB for dpr stability reasons.
Since the monk is a class that, unlike the fighter has no choice and starts on a forced basis with a characteristic similar to the two-weapon fighter, this one needs a solution similar to NICK, and I think this is a good alternative.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
uh, whats good about running up and toppling someone with weak attacks? Also, topple is a save, no guarantee you succeed with two hits. Where are they running to? 10 feet isnt safe. Not to mention staff is capped at a d8, once you hit 11, every topple attempt is lower damage, meanwhile everyone else topples at level 1 for d10.
what level is it when barbarian can't do that with better damage? And more topple attempts? (pam) The barb has 40ft movement and a reach weapon.
if they use step, then thief would do better damage, and can off turn booming blade for even more damage after retreating,
The current design of monk, they are the weaker/less effecient version of someone else doing something.
I can topple for d8 vs d10, with greater risk to myself, great. Any other martial can throw d10 topple tridents from 20 feet if they want to be safer than the skirmisher monk for greater effect. not to mention feats, fighting styles, features, etc.
the monk is just poorly designed right now. There isnt really a good use case scenario.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
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Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
uh, whats good about running up and toppling someone with weak attacks? Also, topple is a save, no guarantee you succeed with two hits. Where are they running to? 10 feet isnt safe. Not to mention staff is capped at a d8, once you hit 11, every topple attempt is lower damage, meanwhile everyone else topples at level 1 for d10.
what level is it when barbarian can't do that with better damage? And more topple attempts? (pam) The barb has 40ft movement and a reach weapon.
if they use step, then thief would do better damage, and can off turn booming blade for even more damage after retreating,
The current design of monk, they are the weaker/less effecient version of someone else doing something.
I can topple for d8 vs d10, with greater risk to myself, great. Any other martial can throw d10 topple tridents from 20 feet if they want to be safer than the skirmisher monk for greater effect. not to mention feats, fighting styles, features, etc.
the monk is just poorly designed right now. There isnt really a good use case scenario.
Solving the prblem of having to choose between attacking or defending, doing both at the same time would increase the dpr naturally and instantaneously, then clearly adding an enhancement to the damage is a neccessity. But I don't think the monk's movement feature should be neglected. If not, we still fall into nonlinear design and features that are pushed to without any clear idea of where and what you want to be.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
This is something I have been thinking about a lot, and my solution is to develop Patient Defense. I think movement can't always be possible. Narrow spaces are very much present in the maps used in DND, and so the movement-only monk would be at a strong disadvantage. In my PDF o sviulpped another solution, features and techniques that evolve from Patient Defense.
Ki - Defensive Stance (PD). You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of this Stance effect, no one has attacked you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
COUNTER-STRIKE. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still make a Counter-Strike as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
DEFLECT-MISSILES. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to deflect the attack against the creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still deflect the missile as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
15th: Iron Skin. When you use Dodge and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
This combined with the fact that you can move the bonus attack into the action when using resources allows for good defense and counterattack at the same time.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
This is something I have been thinking about a lot, and my solution is to develop Patient Defense. I think movement can't always be possible. Narrow spaces are very much present in the maps used in DND, and so the movement-only monk would be at a strong disadvantage. In my PDF o sviulpped another solution, features and techniques that evolve from Patient Defense.
Ki - Defensive Stance (PD). You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of this Stance effect, no one has attacked you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
COUNTER-STRIKE. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still make a Counter-Strike as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
DEFLECT-MISSILES. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to deflect the attack against the creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still deflect the missile as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
15th: Iron Skin. When you use Dodge and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
the dodge stuff is interesting, the deflect change is ehh. ironskin at 15 seems pretty late for what its doing
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
Now I do not want to claim that the only solution is the skirmish monk, but Without the mobile feat effectively the monk is no longer even that.
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
This is something I have been thinking about a lot, and my solution is to develop Patient Defense. I think movement can't always be possible. Narrow spaces are very much present in the maps used in DND, and so the movement-only monk would be at a strong disadvantage. In my PDF o sviulpped another solution, features and techniques that evolve from Patient Defense.
Ki - Defensive Stance (PD). You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of this Stance effect, no one has attacked you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
COUNTER-STRIKE. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still make a Counter-Strike as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
DEFLECT-MISSILES. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to deflect the attack against the creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still deflect the missile as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
15th: Iron Skin. When you use Dodge and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
the dodge stuff is interesting, the deflect change is ehh. ironskin at 15 seems pretty late for what its doing
The advantage is that you have counterattack even when you are dodging and not only when you are being hit with the condition that the damage is reduced to zero. Iron skin is 15th level because it increases the chance to counterattack and defend at the same time. But mostly because this class is designed to avoid direct combat.
But as explained, these are just examples of how I would like the class to evolve. If not, whatever, as long as the class is functional and practical on par with all the other classes in the game.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
No need to be so melodramatic. This is the Internet, not theatre class at the junior high school.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
No need to be so melodramatic. This is the Internet, not theatre class at the junior high school.
As I explained, this is what I think, and it doesn't have to be the truth, it's just the impression it gives me. And I don't think it's polite of you to insult my opinion.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
i don't advocate for the monk being immune to reach damage, just trying to set a reasonable bounds so that 'monk's melee reach' doesn't accidentally become more powerful than intended. it's kinda like how knocking someone prone gives you advantage to attack at 5ft and disadvantage to attack at 10ft+.
i'm asking for more monk tools, particularly passive tools which could give visual queue to intelligent monsters (and DMs). PAM/Sentinel is definitely a zone-control tool the monk lacks support for. off the top of my head, how about for a monk feature: while not incapacitated, all spaces within 5ft of the monk are a zone of difficult terrain to enemies who do not spend a reaction to steady their balance. additionally, if an enemy within that zone attempts to attack monk (or allies?), monk may spend 1ki and a reaction so that until the end of the turn any attacker [of appropriate size] is toppled prone immediately before their attack. with this, monk isn't dodging but receives a similar outcome (plus also sapping movement speed). a passive ability with added kick on demand. and maybe some narrative control, as well, since bandits might wish to avoid those fast hands (although some might be attracted, i suppose). also, despite the disadvantage defense i wouldn't replace bonus action dodge, but rather add something more to make it worth the ki point like... monk gains PB number of reactions strictly for the purpose of deflecting missiles (unused bonus reactions lost at beginning of next turn). an option for those times when the monk really does have to stop, plant their feet, and focus on defense.
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tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
This is the debate that doesn’t end, Yes it goes on and on my friends, Some people started debating it not knowing what it was, and they will keep debating it forever just because, This is the debate that doesn’t end, Yes it goes on and on my friends, Some people started debating it not knowing what it was, and they will keep debating it forever just because…. (Repeat)
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
No need to be so melodramatic. This is the Internet, not theatre class at the junior high school.
As I explained, this is what I think, and it doesn't have to be the truth, it's just the impression it gives me. And I don't think it's polite of you to insult my opinion.
But it is your truth. Your expressed opinion points towards either hatred or incompetence on the part of the design team. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You insulted people who you do not know, aren't here, and cannot defend themselves. You were rude, and your opinions, like everyone else's, may be freely scrutinized. I would hope that's why we're here. Otherwise, everyone is talking past one another and there's no conversation being had.
Speaking of criticism, I've read your Google doc. It's a mess. You reference "force points" before they're even an available mechanic, and shifting the BA unarmed strike to the attack action might actually be a nerf. Two-Weapon Fighting is still an option, and there's no reason why both attacks can't be done. Both your Defensive Stance and Iron Strike are situational, with the latter also being confusing (two martial arts die on a single attack?), and Lightning Step...does it let them fly for a turn, or do they have to maintain some kind of lateral movement?
Stunning Strike requires an Iron Strike, so that's just weird. Assimilation is basically a tattooed monk archetype, which probably deserves to be its own subclass. But there are already tattoos which are magic items, and it doesn't actually do anything. It's a concealed weapon, and that's about it. Flurry of Strikes is finally giving FoB out...at 11th-level. And, if I'm reading it correctly, Flurry of Iron Strikes is four 2d12 + Dexterity modifier attacks per round, but they're all unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strikes which don't become magical or deal force damage.
In terms of design, it's all over the place. Between things which are poorly worded and features you straight up stop using as you level up, I think you have less of an idea about what the monk should be that the design team.
Right now, Monks have a hard time getting through to those vulnerable backline units because they have to choose EITHER dashing or disengaging if they still want to make attacks and if they don't disengage, they don't have the AC and HP to tank hits along the way. When they do get to make attacks, even Opportunity Attacks, they don't do enough damage to knock out the targets.
What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
No need to be so melodramatic. This is the Internet, not theatre class at the junior high school.
As I explained, this is what I think, and it doesn't have to be the truth, it's just the impression it gives me. And I don't think it's polite of you to insult my opinion.
But it is your truth. Your expressed opinion points towards either hatred or incompetence on the part of the design team. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You insulted people who you do not know, aren't here, and cannot defend themselves. You were rude, and your opinions, like everyone else's, may be freely scrutinized. I would hope that's why we're here. Otherwise, everyone is talking past one another and there's no conversation being had.
Indeed it is unfair of me to criticize designers without their presence, about that I agree, but that doesn't change my way of thinking. I really think there is something wrong with the design proposed in test6 of the monk class and that makes me think and I can't help but speculate.
Maybe it is a strategy to lower the pretensions there are about the monk class and present something better next time and make everyone happy.
But as I explained, these are just assumptions and it's not my goal to offend others, so I don't understand why you have to pick on me so much and insult my way of thinking.
I find it unbecoming.
Speaking of criticism, I've read your Google doc. It's a mess. You reference "force points" before they're even an available mechanic, and shifting the BA unarmed strike to the attack action might actually be a nerf. Two-Weapon Fighting is still an option, and there's no reason why both attacks can't be done. Both your Defensive Stance and Iron Strike are situational, with the latter also being confusing (two martial arts die on a single attack?), and Lightning Step...does it let them fly for a turn, or do they have to maintain some kind of lateral movement?
Stunning Strike requires an Iron Strike, so that's just weird. Assimilation is basically a tattooed monk archetype, which probably deserves to be its own subclass. But there are already tattoos which are magic items, and it doesn't actually do anything. It's a concealed weapon, and that's about it. Flurry of Strikes is finally giving FoB out...at 11th-level. And, if I'm reading it correctly, Flurry of Iron Strikes is four 2d12 + Dexterity modifier attacks per round, but they're all unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strikes which don't become magical or deal force damage.
In terms of design, it's all over the place. Between things which are poorly worded and features you straight up stop using as you level up, I think you have less of an idea about what the monk should be that the design team.
Thank you, there was no need for the criticism, I am aware that there are still many things that are wrong and English is not my native language, so it is normal that there are many unclear elements. But thank you for mentioning them.
That variant class I presented only because it seemed to me that the solutions I found might be of interest; I did not force anyone to read them. If you find it so badly written, and you don't like the solutions I found, what can I say? I'm sorry?
I give ya credit aanx I may not see the monk as a skirmisher control like a lot of people but at least your trying to give options .I see monk as they should be warriors who should be competitive and able to kick ass in different flavors . pf2 has done this alot better then 5e imo and im hoping they take a few notes. even in pf2 monks are not stronger then fighters but they are alot closer thematically to kung fu monk ideals and way less squishy and are competitive .
Im still thinking they should make orders. cause then no one can complain if they both have options . like order of battle monk you get extra extra attack or some other scaling feature at level eleven get better ma die and maybe some offensive ki features.
then have a controller monk who does less dmg and is more for control and movement /support expert. that will make the people who don't want to do damage and are happier with the control and movement aspects happy.
Cause I know they get mad if you come up with ideas to add damage lol . I'm not hating they can like the flavor they like I just want more options so those of use who like to kick ass with kung fu(or whichever ma art you like) have more options . I should be able to make a monk who is like Tien he wont overshadow the fighter but will be able to kick ass in his own ways . neo tri beam cannon ,solar flare,four witches technique. it would be cool to get some offense ki powers. btw im not saying copyright db but they have alot of cool ideas to add things for monk
If you are talking about a martial class that can control, the new rogue seems to be that with cunning strike or the battle master. The only thing going for monk is the movement speed.
If you are talking about a martial class that can control, the new rogue seems to be that with cunning strike or the battle master. The only thing going for monk is the movement speed.
I kind of wish they had done the Battle Master with Cunning-Strike-like abilities instead of 5e style. I’ve been working on something like that, for all of the Martial classes.
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What type of battlefield are you imagining here? If the battlefield is small enough that the monk HAS to go into melee with enemies to reach the back lines and can't go around them, then they probably don't need to Dash, where as if it is large enough to need to dash they can probably just avoid going into melee with enemies. But either way this isn't an issue anymore since SotW is now both Dash & Disengage at the same time.
Monk damage is actually pretty much the same as Rogue (in tier 1&2), so if Rogue damage is "good" for skirmishing then so is Monk. The main problem with monk is that to use anything other than FoB they give up 2 attacks rather than 1. What is needed is to move the MA off-hand attack into the main action, and that instantly makes SotW and PD much more viable. And they desperately need better damage scaling in tier 3&4.
Now that Quarterstaff has the Topple property monk skirmishing is much more viable: run next to 1 enemy, topple them, hit them with Adv a few times, then run away, taking only 1 AoO at disadvantage. But this leaves them even more dependent on using weapons than in current 5e.
Of course no problem. The fact that I posted my own variation of the Monaco class is that English is not my forte and there are solutions in this varainte that could solve many problematic aspects, from movement, dpr, defense and resource consumption. Of course, it always remains my personal view of the monk. But I think movement speed and unarmed and unarmored combat are important aspects of the monk that set it apart from other classes. As explained before, there are already many classes that can be defined as spiritual/magical/supernatural/... warriors, so the monk cannot be defined by this aspect alone.
I, too, think that the game maps cannot be so large as to handle war-scale combat; it would be complicated. Especially the movement of the monk is not so off-scale compared to the rest of the other classes. When I meant speed, I never said to enhance its speed, but simply to make it more mobile and free from the problems of attacks of opportunity.
However, as far as I think, Toople, although a small step in the right direction, this is not enough to function as a skirmish class. Moving FoB into the action would be a soluion, but one that would benefit the fighter too much. So I thought of this other solution:
MARTIAL ARTS - Quick Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. If you use a force point during your turn, you can decide to move your Bonus Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action. It is still possible to make this extra attack only once per turn.
Ki - Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Force point to take both the Disengage and Dash actions as a Bonus Action, and your step is so light that for the turn you can run through the air.
Unarmored Movement. Your speed increases by 10 feet while you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain Monk levels, as shown in the Monk table. Additionally, while you aren’t wearing armor, you can take the Dash or Disengage action as a bonus action on your turn.
Acrobatic Movement. While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement. If you end your turn in a vertical surface or on a liquid surface, you can use your bonus action to hold your position and not fall until the end of your next turn.
Then I modified FoB for dpr stability reasons.
Since the monk is a class that, unlike the fighter has no choice and starts on a forced basis with a characteristic similar to the two-weapon fighter, this one needs a solution similar to NICK, and I think this is a good alternative.
uh, whats good about running up and toppling someone with weak attacks? Also, topple is a save, no guarantee you succeed with two hits. Where are they running to? 10 feet isnt safe. Not to mention staff is capped at a d8, once you hit 11, every topple attempt is lower damage, meanwhile everyone else topples at level 1 for d10.
what level is it when barbarian can't do that with better damage? And more topple attempts? (pam) The barb has 40ft movement and a reach weapon.
if they use step, then thief would do better damage, and can off turn booming blade for even more damage after retreating,
The current design of monk, they are the weaker/less effecient version of someone else doing something.
I can topple for d8 vs d10, with greater risk to myself, great. Any other martial can throw d10 topple tridents from 20 feet if they want to be safer than the skirmisher monk for greater effect. not to mention feats, fighting styles, features, etc.
the monk is just poorly designed right now. There isnt really a good use case scenario.
step of the wind [UA] gets the monk past the front line and into the ranks of the 'artillery,' but why bother? if the monk is not picking on minions that can be dealt with in one action, now they're surrounded and low on actions. ideally, the solution would be a mix of leveraged base game mechanisms (ranged weapon in melee, blocking/cover, break morale, rock-paper-scissors type matching, etc) and base class disables (stun, addle, daze, disarm, slow, opportunity attacks) to make rushing the 'artillery' worthwhile: disrupt and survive. instead however, the ranged contingent you charge in 5e is likely to fight equally well in melee or step away to become ranged again uninterrupted. no disadvantage. mobility for monk has to be more than getting there.
and it's easy to say "well, don't do that if it's not going to help" but many fights in 5e aren't even so tactical as that. many times there's one or two strong enemies which would find the monk a squishier target than other front line fighters. the monk's go-to plan of "run up and punch" puts to test the 'glass' in 'glass cannon'. monk needs either the same tools to either survive front line equally well as a fighter/barbarian/paladin/bladelock with their feet planted (boring) or they need tools to dodge-roll away from heavy boss attacks and keep enemies at arms length. my preferences revolve around mobility: more for the monk, less for the foe. base monk needs some tools.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Solving the prblem of having to choose between attacking or defending, doing both at the same time would increase the dpr naturally and instantaneously, then clearly adding an enhancement to the damage is a neccessity. But I don't think the monk's movement feature should be neglected. If not, we still fall into nonlinear design and features that are pushed to without any clear idea of where and what you want to be.
This is something I have been thinking about a lot, and my solution is to develop Patient Defense. I think movement can't always be possible. Narrow spaces are very much present in the maps used in DND, and so the movement-only monk would be at a strong disadvantage. In my PDF o sviulpped another solution, features and techniques that evolve from Patient Defense.
Ki - Defensive Stance (PD). You can spend 1 Force point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. If at the end of this Stance effect, no one has attacked you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against a creature within your unarmed reach.
COUNTER-STRIKE. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed attack against it. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still make a Counter-Strike as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
DEFLECT-MISSILES. When you use Dodge and a creature misses you with a ranged attack, you can use your reaction to deflect the attack against the creature. If you do so, choose a creature within 60 feet of yourself that isn’t behind Total Cover. That creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take damage equal to two rolls of your Martial Arts die. The damage is the same type dealt by the attack. If you have reduced the damage to 0 through the Iron Skin feature, you can still deflect the missile as part of the same reaction. (Unarmed Technique)
15th: Iron Skin. When you use Dodge and a creature that can be seen hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to reduce the damage by 1d10 plus your Dexterity modifier plus your monk level.
This combined with the fact that you can move the bonus attack into the action when using resources allows for good defense and counterattack at the same time.
arms length has no real value for monk. being 10 feet away from an enemy doesnt stop them from meleeing you. Now, a Pam character with a push or topple might be able to play keep away, but a monk? unless they got two other meleers protecting them, they gained nothing. If moving is going to be the answer, it needs to actually give some defense.or advantage Too bad they removed staff from Pam and Pam from monk, they have no midranged defense/game. And they will always need to enter 5ft range once per turn to be effective (at dmg)
I'm not opposed to some type of dash in and out mechanics/gameplay, but they are actually relatively worse at that in 2024 than 2014. Even fighters got tactical shift now, with better tools to back it up.
the dodge stuff is interesting, the deflect change is ehh. ironskin at 15 seems pretty late for what its doing
Yes, the corrections made on the monk in playtest6 seem to be made in such a way as to make the monk even more unplayable and with less opportunity to access the new features than the other classes. Everything seems created to exile the monk from the game itself. Now I don't know what is going on among WotC's designers, but certainly the monk does not seem to be much apreciated, in fact it seems almost hated. (These are just my speculations).
Now I do not want to claim that the only solution is the skirmish monk, but Without the mobile feat effectively the monk is no longer even that.
It seems that even they do not know where the monk should be placed.
The advantage is that you have counterattack even when you are dodging and not only when you are being hit with the condition that the damage is reduced to zero. Iron skin is 15th level because it increases the chance to counterattack and defend at the same time. But mostly because this class is designed to avoid direct combat.
But as explained, these are just examples of how I would like the class to evolve. If not, whatever, as long as the class is functional and practical on par with all the other classes in the game.
No need to be so melodramatic. This is the Internet, not theatre class at the junior high school.
As I explained, this is what I think, and it doesn't have to be the truth, it's just the impression it gives me. And I don't think it's polite of you to insult my opinion.
i don't advocate for the monk being immune to reach damage, just trying to set a reasonable bounds so that 'monk's melee reach' doesn't accidentally become more powerful than intended. it's kinda like how knocking someone prone gives you advantage to attack at 5ft and disadvantage to attack at 10ft+.
i'm asking for more monk tools, particularly passive tools which could give visual queue to intelligent monsters (and DMs). PAM/Sentinel is definitely a zone-control tool the monk lacks support for. off the top of my head, how about for a monk feature: while not incapacitated, all spaces within 5ft of the monk are a zone of difficult terrain to enemies who do not spend a reaction to steady their balance. additionally, if an enemy within that zone attempts to attack monk (or allies?), monk may spend 1ki and a reaction so that until the end of the turn any attacker [of appropriate size] is toppled prone immediately before their attack. with this, monk isn't dodging but receives a similar outcome (plus also sapping movement speed). a passive ability with added kick on demand. and maybe some narrative control, as well, since bandits might wish to avoid those fast hands (although some might be attracted, i suppose). also, despite the disadvantage defense i wouldn't replace bonus action dodge, but rather add something more to make it worth the ki point like... monk gains PB number of reactions strictly for the purpose of deflecting missiles (unused bonus reactions lost at beginning of next turn). an option for those times when the monk really does have to stop, plant their feet, and focus on defense.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
This is the debate that doesn’t end,
Yes it goes on and on my friends,
Some people started debating it not knowing what it was,
and they will keep debating it forever just because,
This is the debate that doesn’t end,
Yes it goes on and on my friends,
Some people started debating it not knowing what it was,
and they will keep debating it forever just because…. (Repeat)
But it is your truth. Your expressed opinion points towards either hatred or incompetence on the part of the design team. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You insulted people who you do not know, aren't here, and cannot defend themselves. You were rude, and your opinions, like everyone else's, may be freely scrutinized. I would hope that's why we're here. Otherwise, everyone is talking past one another and there's no conversation being had.
Speaking of criticism, I've read your Google doc. It's a mess. You reference "force points" before they're even an available mechanic, and shifting the BA unarmed strike to the attack action might actually be a nerf. Two-Weapon Fighting is still an option, and there's no reason why both attacks can't be done. Both your Defensive Stance and Iron Strike are situational, with the latter also being confusing (two martial arts die on a single attack?), and Lightning Step...does it let them fly for a turn, or do they have to maintain some kind of lateral movement?
Stunning Strike requires an Iron Strike, so that's just weird. Assimilation is basically a tattooed monk archetype, which probably deserves to be its own subclass. But there are already tattoos which are magic items, and it doesn't actually do anything. It's a concealed weapon, and that's about it. Flurry of Strikes is finally giving FoB out...at 11th-level. And, if I'm reading it correctly, Flurry of Iron Strikes is four 2d12 + Dexterity modifier attacks per round, but they're all unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strikes which don't become magical or deal force damage.
In terms of design, it's all over the place. Between things which are poorly worded and features you straight up stop using as you level up, I think you have less of an idea about what the monk should be that the design team.
Indeed it is unfair of me to criticize designers without their presence, about that I agree, but that doesn't change my way of thinking. I really think there is something wrong with the design proposed in test6 of the monk class and that makes me think and I can't help but speculate.
Maybe it is a strategy to lower the pretensions there are about the monk class and present something better next time and make everyone happy.
But as I explained, these are just assumptions and it's not my goal to offend others, so I don't understand why you have to pick on me so much and insult my way of thinking.
I find it unbecoming.
Thank you, there was no need for the criticism, I am aware that there are still many things that are wrong and English is not my native language, so it is normal that there are many unclear elements. But thank you for mentioning them.
That variant class I presented only because it seemed to me that the solutions I found might be of interest; I did not force anyone to read them. If you find it so badly written, and you don't like the solutions I found, what can I say? I'm sorry?
I give ya credit aanx I may not see the monk as a skirmisher control like a lot of people but at least your trying to give options .I see monk as they should be warriors who should be competitive and able to kick ass in different flavors . pf2 has done this alot better then 5e imo and im hoping they take a few notes. even in pf2 monks are not stronger then fighters but they are alot closer thematically to kung fu monk ideals and way less squishy and are competitive .
Im still thinking they should make orders. cause then no one can complain if they both have options . like order of battle monk you get extra extra attack or some other scaling feature at level eleven get better ma die and maybe some offensive ki features.
then have a controller monk who does less dmg and is more for control and movement /support expert. that will make the people who don't want to do damage and are happier with the control and movement aspects happy.
Cause I know they get mad if you come up with ideas to add damage lol . I'm not hating they can like the flavor they like I just want more options so those of use who like to kick ass with kung fu(or whichever ma art you like) have more options . I should be able to make a monk who is like Tien he wont overshadow the fighter but will be able to kick ass in his own ways . neo tri beam cannon ,solar flare,four witches technique. it would be cool to get some offense ki powers. btw im not saying copyright db but they have alot of cool ideas to add things for monk
If you are talking about a martial class that can control, the new rogue seems to be that with cunning strike or the battle master. The only thing going for monk is the movement speed.
I kind of wish they had done the Battle Master with Cunning-Strike-like abilities instead of 5e style. I’ve been working on something like that, for all of the Martial classes.