Yup. Agree with most of Aquilontune's post. Only big difference is that I do think Mobile is a great feat for Monks in general. Maybe it should be baked into the base class at level 5?
And to mention that Psi Fighter is basically the devs giving up on making a better Monk base class, so put Monk features onto a Fighter subclass instead. Unsurprisingly, they prioritize the enjoyment of Fighter fanbase before the fun of Monk fanbase. And now with their rollout of OneDnD, they are about to repeat the pattern by giving even more flexibility to the Fighter while wringing their hands about "backward compatability" with the Monk base class so they're afraid of making any big changes to what is quantitatively the weaker class (outside of a few niche situations). What a joke.
Not only does Psi Warrior have nothing to do with Monk, but Mobile is actually a pretty poor choice for Monks. They already have higher movement speed, and most Monk subclasses already have answers to hit-and-run attacks. Other feats such as Crusher have a lot more utility for Monks.
In fact, Mobile really highlights a lot of folks' ignorance when it comes to Monks and how they ignore the impact of subclasses when chanting Monk Bad, because Mobile solves a "problem" that most Monks don't actually have.
Rewatching video and JC does say that the two of the least played classes was Druid and the Monk. So for those who complain about the “monk bad” people, there are some actual numbers behind that.
Now is it as bad as some make it out to be? Probably not. But there are so many play styles out there you can’t just say one side is 100% right or wrong.
Just had to put that out there so maybe the tone, on both sides, can come down a notch or 12.
According to their survey results. Which don't represent 99.9% of players, and which you also have to remember is tainted by prominent YouTubers actively instructing their followers and fanboys to brigade the survey with spam and abuse.
Make the Monk less MAD. So probably have AC calculation start at 13+DEX and scale up to 15+DEX. Discipline DC based on DEX.
They're not going to drop Wisdom from the class because they're perfectly well aware that the people who demand such want it because they want a single-level dip that gives them easy access to high AC and an extra attack every turn.
The same reasoning being why people complain that Monks' enhanced abilities are tied to resources, or that they have low resources at low levels like every other class: because they want to put three levels into Monk and then get half a dozen Flurry of Blows. It doesn't matter what the experience for Monks themselves is, hence why so many suggested changes blatantly make the Monk worse but make their features more accessible for multiclassers.
I'm sorry, but I get the impression that we are not playing the same game, or maybe we are playing by different rules. I wish I had as high an opinion of the monk design as you do, but as I see it now, the monk has an unbalanced and impractical design.
Yup. Agree with most of Aquilontune's post. Only big difference is that I do think Mobile is a great feat for Monks in general. Maybe it should be baked into the base class at level 5?
And to mention that Psi Fighter is basically the devs giving up on making a better Monk base class, so put Monk features onto a Fighter subclass instead. Unsurprisingly, they prioritize the enjoyment of Fighter fanbase before the fun of Monk fanbase. And now with their rollout of OneDnD, they are about to repeat the pattern by giving even more flexibility to the Fighter while wringing their hands about "backward compatability" with the Monk base class so they're afraid of making any big changes to what is quantitatively the weaker class (outside of a few niche situations). What a joke.
Not only does Psi Warrior have nothing to do with Monk, but Mobile is actually a pretty poor choice for Monks. They already have higher movement speed, and most Monk subclasses already have answers to hit-and-run attacks. Other feats such as Crusher have a lot more utility for Monks.
In fact, Mobile really highlights a lot of folks' ignorance when it comes to Monks and how they ignore the impact of subclasses when chanting Monk Bad, because Mobile solves a "problem" that most Monks don't actually have.
Rewatching video and JC does say that the two of the least played classes was Druid and the Monk. So for those who complain about the “monk bad” people, there are some actual numbers behind that.
Now is it as bad as some make it out to be? Probably not. But there are so many play styles out there you can’t just say one side is 100% right or wrong.
Just had to put that out there so maybe the tone, on both sides, can come down a notch or 12.
According to their survey results. Which don't represent 99.9% of players, and which you also have to remember is tainted by prominent YouTubers actively instructing their followers and fanboys to brigade the survey with spam and abuse.
Make the Monk less MAD. So probably have AC calculation start at 13+DEX and scale up to 15+DEX. Discipline DC based on DEX.
They're not going to drop Wisdom from the class because they're perfectly well aware that the people who demand such want it because they want a single-level dip that gives them easy access to high AC and an extra attack every turn.
The same reasoning being why people complain that Monks' enhanced abilities are tied to resources, or that they have low resources at low levels like every other class: because they want to put three levels into Monk and then get half a dozen Flurry of Blows. It doesn't matter what the experience for Monks themselves is, hence why so many suggested changes blatantly make the Monk worse but make their features more accessible for multiclassers.
Should be noted that crusher is good right now, but the playtest monk does force damage not bludgeoning damage so it doesn't work for that monk anymore.
Other than that I actually agree that many of the subclasses provide a hit and run option. Unfortunately they are almost all limited.
Elements is great by keeping the monk at range as their 1 ki point can keep them running for the whole fight.
Hand, is unfortunate in that it needs to spend ki each time as well as its bonus action and the opponent gets a save making it very risky.
Shadow has the darkness tricks which is great.
Mercy is the one that doesn't really get a hit and run option until around 6.
I was actually planning on doing a level by level rogue vs monk comparison as they are both the "hit and run" classes but work load is way too much to make that post.
My beliefs fully.
Level 1-8 there isn't enough out of combat stuff for the monk. 11 you already know. Ironically your fix came close to mine. Both of our 11 fix allows for 3 attacks and patient defense/step of wind. Yours allows defense AND 4 attacks with 2 ki. Mine did not allow that at all. Yours allows 4 attacks with 1 ki. Mine allows 4 with none and 5 with 1.
Your solution means the monk will burn through resources faster at a time when other characters are having more resources and those resources are getting stronger.
Honestly I would be fine with martial arts not scaling past a d8 if that means the monk can get the 3rd attack at level 11, but the issue with that is some subclass scalings. Elements aoe is already not super great making it not scale would be even worse.
But I am still excited to see what WoTC has for us. I suspect we may get to do some cool things without ki and cool things with ki.
Edit: (I want to specify that I want 11 better because I want to encourage LESS multiclassing.) This UA the best way to scale into T3 is to multiclass out around level 8. Fighter gives action surge, better weapons, extra health a fighting style the heightened metabolism is great synergy with abilities that recover on a short rest... like action surge. Which I dont actually have an issue with it just sucks when it is obvious that MCing out is the better way almost every time. Having things better at 10 and 11 entices continuation to 12 which entices continuation to 14 to get diamond soul.... so on and so forth. From this play test I go 9 for wall run MC to fighter for second wind and action surge then battle master manuevers and asi one level late for wis increase level 5 for tactical maneuver and 6 for asi one level early for 20 wis a whole level early maybe delaying it to 16 for a level dip of a caster to get resistance at the same level diamond soul is available. Same thing happens with barbarian. Not much of a point to go past 8 instead of MCING out.
Yup. Agree with most of Aquilontune's post. Only big difference is that I do think Mobile is a great feat for Monks in general. Maybe it should be baked into the base class at level 5?
And to mention that Psi Fighter is basically the devs giving up on making a better Monk base class, so put Monk features onto a Fighter subclass instead. Unsurprisingly, they prioritize the enjoyment of Fighter fanbase before the fun of Monk fanbase. And now with their rollout of OneDnD, they are about to repeat the pattern by giving even more flexibility to the Fighter while wringing their hands about "backward compatability" with the Monk base class so they're afraid of making any big changes to what is quantitatively the weaker class (outside of a few niche situations). What a joke.
Not only does Psi Warrior have nothing to do with Monk, but Mobile is actually a pretty poor choice for Monks. They already have higher movement speed, and most Monk subclasses already have answers to hit-and-run attacks. Other feats such as Crusher have a lot more utility for Monks.
In fact, Mobile really highlights a lot of folks' ignorance when it comes to Monks and how they ignore the impact of subclasses when chanting Monk Bad, because Mobile solves a "problem" that most Monks don't actually have.
Rewatching video and JC does say that the two of the least played classes was Druid and the Monk. So for those who complain about the “monk bad” people, there are some actual numbers behind that.
Now is it as bad as some make it out to be? Probably not. But there are so many play styles out there you can’t just say one side is 100% right or wrong.
Just had to put that out there so maybe the tone, on both sides, can come down a notch or 12.
According to their survey results. Which don't represent 99.9% of players, and which you also have to remember is tainted by prominent YouTubers actively instructing their followers and fanboys to brigade the survey with spam and abuse.
Make the Monk less MAD. So probably have AC calculation start at 13+DEX and scale up to 15+DEX. Discipline DC based on DEX.
They're not going to drop Wisdom from the class because they're perfectly well aware that the people who demand such want it because they want a single-level dip that gives them easy access to high AC and an extra attack every turn.
The same reasoning being why people complain that Monks' enhanced abilities are tied to resources, or that they have low resources at low levels like every other class: because they want to put three levels into Monk and then get half a dozen Flurry of Blows. It doesn't matter what the experience for Monks themselves is, hence why so many suggested changes blatantly make the Monk worse but make their features more accessible for multiclassers.
You are right, they will not dump WIS on the monk. This was just a “wish list” to make monks less MAD. For me it isn’t so I can dip. I prefer straight class design the same reason I never wanted unarmed and monk weapons to become finesse (even though they are finesse all in but name)
Also, I don’t think his comment on least played was based on survey results but from data pulled fro DDB.
I can’t believe I read someone claim mobile isn’t a good feat for a monk. It makes you wonder if they have actually played a monk or even seen a monk in play. To use any hit and run strategies from a monk of any subclass requires either a ki point, action economy, a situational circumstance or some combo of those 3. Mobile saves the monk ki points and frees up their action economy.
I can’t believe I read someone claim mobile isn’t a good feat for a monk. It makes you wonder if they have actually played a monk or even seen a monk in play. To use any hit and run strategies from a monk of any subclass requires either a ki point, action economy, a situational circumstance or some combo of those 3. Mobile saves the monk ki points and frees up their action economy.
Oh it's an absolutely fantastic feat for Monk; I'd probably argue that Crusher might slightly edge it out though, at least for me.
Firstly it's a half feat, so it has a lower "cost" than Mobile, especially since part of what you're giving up is for extra speed that a Monk doesn't really need more of. But it really comes down to the 5 foot nudge on bludgeoning damage; you can use to effectively Disengage for "free", but by moving the enemy you can do that not just for yourself but also vulnerable allies (or both) and you can also use it to nudge an enemy back into an area of effect, towards a ledge etc. which can set them up for a Shove (or Open Hand Technique).
The "stun-lite" on critical is also nice, and with Flurry of Blows a Monk can trigger it a decent amount, though I generally don't like critical hit abilities all that much (can't rely on them to happen when you need them, but when it does it's a free party boost).
While Mobile is good, my biggest problem with it is that Monk shouldn't need it in the first place; Monk is already fast, and can already Disengage, the benefit of the feat is that it doesn't have the cost to both action economy and Ki points that Step of the Wind does, but that feels like fixing something wrong with the class rather than really giving you something you should be spending a precious feat choice on.
So I'd rather see parts of both integrated; i.e- let Step of the Wind be free for a single Dash or Disengage, as for a Monk the bonus action cost is already plenty (since you're losing anything else you could be doing with that bonus action). Then give us some versatile control abilities; it's amazing how much potential utility Crusher's free once per turn 5 foot nudge gives you, and those are the types of features I want to see more of. They're not especially powerful effects, but they're useful in ways that can make them so much more important, as even with free Step of the Wind it would still be saving you a bonus action when you can "disengage" without it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yup. Agree with most of Aquilontune's post. Only big difference is that I do think Mobile is a great feat for Monks in general. Maybe it should be baked into the base class at level 5?
And to mention that Psi Fighter is basically the devs giving up on making a better Monk base class, so put Monk features onto a Fighter subclass instead. Unsurprisingly, they prioritize the enjoyment of Fighter fanbase before the fun of Monk fanbase. And now with their rollout of OneDnD, they are about to repeat the pattern by giving even more flexibility to the Fighter while wringing their hands about "backward compatability" with the Monk base class so they're afraid of making any big changes to what is quantitatively the weaker class (outside of a few niche situations). What a joke.
Not only does Psi Warrior have nothing to do with Monk, but Mobile is actually a pretty poor choice for Monks. They already have higher movement speed, and most Monk subclasses already have answers to hit-and-run attacks. Other feats such as Crusher have a lot more utility for Monks.
In fact, Mobile really highlights a lot of folks' ignorance when it comes to Monks and how they ignore the impact of subclasses when chanting Monk Bad, because Mobile solves a "problem" that most Monks don't actually have.
Rewatching video and JC does say that the two of the least played classes was Druid and the Monk. So for those who complain about the “monk bad” people, there are some actual numbers behind that.
Now is it as bad as some make it out to be? Probably not. But there are so many play styles out there you can’t just say one side is 100% right or wrong.
Just had to put that out there so maybe the tone, on both sides, can come down a notch or 12.
According to their survey results. Which don't represent 99.9% of players, and which you also have to remember is tainted by prominent YouTubers actively instructing their followers and fanboys to brigade the survey with spam and abuse.
Make the Monk less MAD. So probably have AC calculation start at 13+DEX and scale up to 15+DEX. Discipline DC based on DEX.
They're not going to drop Wisdom from the class because they're perfectly well aware that the people who demand such want it because they want a single-level dip that gives them easy access to high AC and an extra attack every turn.
The same reasoning being why people complain that Monks' enhanced abilities are tied to resources, or that they have low resources at low levels like every other class: because they want to put three levels into Monk and then get half a dozen Flurry of Blows. It doesn't matter what the experience for Monks themselves is, hence why so many suggested changes blatantly make the Monk worse but make their features more accessible for multiclassers.
Should be noted that crusher is good right now, but the playtest monk does force damage not bludgeoning damage so it doesn't work for that monk anymore.
Other than that I actually agree that many of the subclasses provide a hit and run option. Unfortunately they are almost all limited.
Elements is great by keeping the monk at range as their 1 ki point can keep them running for the whole fight.
Hand, is unfortunate in that it needs to spend ki each time as well as its bonus action and the opponent gets a save making it very risky.
Shadow has the darkness tricks which is great.
Mercy is the one that doesn't really get a hit and run option until around 6.
I was actually planning on doing a level by level rogue vs monk comparison as they are both the "hit and run" classes but work load is way too much to make that post.
My beliefs fully.
Level 1-8 there isn't enough out of combat stuff for the monk. 11 you already know. Ironically your fix came close to mine. Both of our 11 fix allows for 3 attacks and patient defense/step of wind. Yours allows defense AND 4 attacks with 2 ki. Mine did not allow that at all. Yours allows 4 attacks with 1 ki. Mine allows 4 with none and 5 with 1.
Your solution means the monk will burn through resources faster at a time when other characters are having more resources and those resources are getting stronger.
Honestly I would be fine with martial arts not scaling past a d8 if that means the monk can get the 3rd attack at level 11, but the issue with that is some subclass scalings. Elements aoe is already not super great making it not scale would be even worse.
But I am still excited to see what WoTC has for us. I suspect we may get to do some cool things without ki and cool things with ki.
Edit: (I want to specify that I want 11 better because I want to encourage LESS multiclassing.) This UA the best way to scale into T3 is to multiclass out around level 8. Fighter gives action surge, better weapons, extra health a fighting style the heightened metabolism is great synergy with abilities that recover on a short rest... like action surge. Which I dont actually have an issue with it just sucks when it is obvious that MCing out is the better way almost every time. Having things better at 10 and 11 entices continuation to 12 which entices continuation to 14 to get diamond soul.... so on and so forth. From this play test I go 9 for wall run MC to fighter for second wind and action surge then battle master manuevers and asi one level late for wis increase level 5 for tactical maneuver and 6 for asi one level early for 20 wis a whole level early maybe delaying it to 16 for a level dip of a caster to get resistance at the same level diamond soul is available. Same thing happens with barbarian. Not much of a point to go past 8 instead of MCING out.
Actually, the monk has the choice to do Force or normal damage. So if your target does not have resistance to Bludgeoning then Crusher still works just fine. The problem comes in when the resistance is there. We will have to see how they are handling resistances on monsters in future UA’s. It might not be as plentiful, who knows.
Here is the perfect encapsulation about folks who complain that the Monk doesn't have enough Discipline Points at early levels.
At Level 2, a Fighter wielding a greatsword with +3 Strength will do 5-15 damage per turn.
At Level 2, a Monk wielding a d8 versatile weapon with +3 Dexterity and their bonus strike will do 8-20 damage per turn. Without expending resources, the Monk does more damage than every other martial.
At Level 2, the Fighter can use Action Surge once per short rest, allowing them the choice to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or to perform another Attack, doubling their damage to 10-30 on that turn.
At Level 2, the Monk can use two Discipline abilities, allowing them to Dash and Disengage, or to Dodge, or to do an additional unarmed strike at 1d6+3, bringing their damage up to 12-29. This is double the Fighter's regular damage output.
So at Level 2, the Monk can do more damage than the Fighter regularly, and can do double the Fighter's damage output twice as often as the Fighter themselves can.
And somehow this isn't good enough.
I agree with you that monk damage in tier 1 is already good. I did not even think the martial arts die needed to start at 1d6. Giving monks the damage boost in tier 1 is not where it was needed, it was needed in tier 3 and 4.
Having not enough ki at low levels was not about damage though. It was about being denied use of features that prevented you from playing the fantasy of the monk. The most obvious example of this was 4 elements monk where if you cast a spell you lost your ability to use FOB, PD or Sotw. Thats why it only scored 11% satisfaction. You HAD to choose between either a subclass feature or a class feature and using one automatically forced you to sacrifice the use of another.
That mechanic still exists. If you are playing a shadow monk and cast darkness it forces you to lose a use of FOB, PD or Sotw. Subclass features are suppose to be in addition to core class features, not at the expense of core class features. This goes beyond simple resource management.
In tier one and two this mechanic feels really bad and jeremy crawford and the designers agreed that discipline points were too restrictive. That was the main point he made regarding playtest 8.
Suggestions like boosting starting ki or making FOB, sotw and PD free are just ideas people are putting out there to try and resolve their frustrations around playing monk. If you dont have such frustrations then i am very happy for you.
Because, no matter what power-gamers and "theorycrafters" believe, one less HP per level and 17 AC instead of 19 doesn't mean the Monk crumbles like a cracker the moment enemies look at them the wrong way. (The same people, incidentally, are also strong believers that Blade/Valor Bards are perfectly viable in melee with the same d8 hit die. Don't ask me how that logic works out.
The difference is that a Swords/Valor Bard is still a full caster capable of bolstering their defence with spells or healing damage that they take; the Monk's defence is limited.
If the intention is for Monks to be frontline fighters then they don't have enough defence to justify that role without using Patient Defense, but if they use Patient Defense then their damage output suffers. While Patient Defense is great at certain levels, eventually Fighters will outperform them in both offence and defence simultaneously.
When people complain about Monk defence/damage they're not usually referring to earlier tiers when it's fine (AC 16-18 is plenty for tiers 1 and 2, Monks do good damage early on etc.) but into tiers 3 and 4 the Fighter just keeps on scaling but the Monk only competes thanks to Stunning Strike (except now they don't in the OneD&D playtest because it got nerfed). Not that the nerfing is the problem, as many people don't want Stunning Strike to be the only thing Monks can do to keep up, but it got nerfed with no replacement.
Swords/Valor bards meanwhile can pick up all sorts of goodies, or just focus on casting more later on.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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Here is the perfect encapsulation about folks who complain that the Monk doesn't have enough Discipline Points at early levels.
At Level 2, a Fighter wielding a greatsword with +3 Strength will do 5-15 damage per turn.
At Level 2, a Monk wielding a d8 versatile weapon with +3 Dexterity and their bonus strike will do 8-20 damage per turn. Without expending resources, the Monk does more damage than every other martial.
At Level 2, the Fighter can use Action Surge once per short rest, allowing them the choice to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or to perform another Attack, doubling their damage to 10-30 on that turn.
At Level 2, the Monk can use two Discipline abilities, allowing them to Dash and Disengage, or to Dodge, or to do an additional unarmed strike at 1d6+3, bringing their damage up to 12-29. This is double the Fighter's regular damage output.
So at Level 2, the Monk can do more damage than the Fighter regularly, and can do double the Fighter's damage output twice as often as the Fighter themselves can.
And somehow this isn't good enough.
I agree with you that monk damage in tier 1 is already good. I did not even think the martial arts die needed to start at 1d6. Giving monks the damage boost in tier 1 is not where it was needed, it was needed in tier 3 and 4.
Having not enough ki at low levels was not about damage though. It was about being denied use of features that prevented you from playing the fantasy of the monk. The most obvious example of this was 4 elements monk where if you cast a spell you lost your ability to use FOB, PD or Sotw. Thats why it only scored 11% satisfaction. You HAD to choose between either a subclass feature or a class feature and using one automatically forced you to sacrifice the use of another.
That mechanic still exists. If you are playing a shadow monk and cast darkness it forces you to lose a use of FOB, PD or Sotw. Subclass features are suppose to be in addition to core class features, not at the expense of core class features. This goes beyond simple resource management.
In tier one and two this mechanic feels really bad and jeremy crawford and the designers agreed that discipline was too restrictive.
Suggestions like boosting starting ki or making FOB, sotw and PD free are just ideas people are putting out there to try and resolve their frustrations around playing monk. If you dont have such frustrations then i am very happy for you.
You've perfectly summed up what people whining about Discipline/Ki limitations really think: That they want all kinds of special abilities that allow the Monk to outperform other classes, and they want to be able to use all of those special abilities far more often than every other class can use their special abilities, and all on top of what the Monk already gets innately and without Discipline cost.
Imagine I'm playing a Wizard. I'm Level 3. I'm going to start raging and whining, if not outright harassing the creators of the game, all because I get two casts of Misty Step or Rime's Binding Ice. I'm going to complain that every spell I have access to does not have an individual resource, and that I should be able to use every individual spell I have multiple times between rests. And imagine if I was complaining about all of this while having features that effectively gave me attack damage, movement speed, and defenses equal to first-level spells every single turn for absolutely no cost.
You do not need, and are not entitled to from the creators of the game, to use Discipline abilities every turn at Level 3.
Wow. Your autopilot response to anyone who wants to build a better monk seems to be that they want access to every monk feature all the time. That is soooo far off base from what i was posting i dont even know if you are even understanding what i was talking about. I was not validating that Sotw, PD and flurry or blows should be free. I dont think they should be. I was merely expressing why people are coming up with such ideas in the first place.
The difference is that a Swords/Valor Bard is still a full caster capable of bolstering their defence with spells or healing damage that they take; the Monk's defence is limited.
If the intention is for Monks to be frontline fighters then they don't have enough defence to justify that role without using Patient Defense, but if they use Patient Defense then their damage output suffers. While Patient Defense is great at certain levels, eventually Fighters will outperform them in both offence and defence simultaneously.
When people complain about Monk defence/damage they're not usually referring to earlier tiers when it's fine (AC 16-18 is plenty for tiers 1 and 2, Monks do good damage early on etc.) but into tiers 3 and 4 the Fighter just keeps on scaling but the Monk only competes thanks to Stunning Strike (except now they don't in the OneD&D playtest because it got nerfed). Not that the nerfing is the problem, as many people don't want Stunning Strike to be the only thing Monks can do to keep up, but it got nerfed with no replacement.
Swords/Valor bards meanwhile can pick up all sorts of goodies, or just focus on casting more later on.
And when the Bard burns through all of of spell slots casting Shield every turn, the Monk will still have their Unarmoured Defense. They'll still be doing more damage than the Bard, making saving throws better than the Bard.
And no, Stunning Strike isn't the only thing that matters to Monks. Claiming such only highlights that you completely ignore subclass options in favour of what seems like the fanciest most special thing you can do every turn. That you don't bother playing a Monk properly doesn't erase the people who enjoy the Monk because they don't waste all of their points on one single feature and then complain that they can't spam a powerful option every turn for zero cost or consequence.
On the contrary. A full caster with medium armour and a shield has a baseline AC as good as a monk for much less stat investment.
Also, when someone says stunning strike is what keeps monk going, you say there’s great subclass features. You don’t actually give specific examples. Off the top of my head, the only T3 scaling that occurs on subclasses is an extra MA die per turn from astral self and maybe a couple of AoE abilities which take your action and cannot reliably out damage your attack action even when hitting 3 or 4 targets despite the opportunity cost, ki cost and action cost.
I’ve probably spent more time theorising about monk than you have simply because you apparently despise minmaxing and multiclassing. All my disgusting powergaming has left me with only one conclusion - a level one monk dip into either fighter or barbarian is stronger than monk could ever be. Whether you multiclass into Path of the Beast and get 4 attacks per turn at level 6, plus better ability scores for unarmoured defence, or you take advantage of the now-apparently-defunct unarmed fighting style 2nd level and have 2 d8+DEX attacks, more HP and equivalent AC, as well as still having more ASIs than the monk. The only time I’d go further is 4 monk levels to either pick up the free +2 AC from Kensei, 2/short rest pass without trace from Shadow, or the reach, force damage, and WIS attack/damage/grapple/athletics from Astral, and the ASI.
At 6th level, barb 5/monk 1 with 18 DEX and 17 CON has 17 AC. It has rage. It has a higher consistent DPR than a 20th level monk. If you want to prove monk is on par with other martials, make the best monk build you possibly can, drawing on your vast experience playing monk, and I’ll make a fighter. I’ll even make a barbarian. The other martial will wipe the floor with the monk every. single. time. It’s just a worse pick. It’s plagued by action economy problems and resource scarcity. Its recharge is tied to an inconsistent rest. It lacks survivability. Its only variety stems from subclasses. Why should all us horrible minmaxers have any less of a valued opinion than you, especially when you strawman, ad hominem, and mislead constantly? You can keep your 2014 monk if you want. I’d would like one that at 20th level can’t be outdamaged and outmanuevered by a mildly minmaxed 10th level build.
I agree with you that monk damage in tier 1 is already good. I did not even think the martial arts die needed to start at 1d6. Giving monks the damage boost in tier 1 is not where it was needed, it was needed in tier 3 and 4.
It was in 5e, but every other class has gotten significant boosts to damage in 5eR and monk got... +1 damage on some of their attacks. Now monks are mediocre in tier 1 and trash in tier 2+. I just make a LOLs build in another thread that was : 1-Rogue, 1-Fighter, 1-Bard, 1-Sorcerer, 1-Warlock and it does comparable damage to a 5th level monk, has way better utility than a 5th level monk and has way better defenses than a 5th level monk.
And when the Bard burns through all of of spell slots casting Shield every turn, the Monk will still have their Unarmoured Defense. They'll still be doing more damage than the Bard, making saving throws better than the Bard.
You accuse me of not knowing how to play Monk, and then immediately claim the Swords/Valor Bard will just cast shield every turn? For one thing, Swords/Valor bards both have access to medium armor, while Valor can take a shield (the item), plus Swords bards can use Defensive Flourish for an average 4-5 AC boost at 5th-level, and it doesn't cost them any of their action economy.
There are also plenty of spells that can give good defensive boosts and have more than a single turn duration, like mirror image (if you have time to set it up), or you might use a magical secret to nab shadow of moil or something else exotic, potentially boosting both your defence and offence for only a single spell slot per casting.
They only need to cast shield (the spell) if they still get hit in spite of all this, meaning they may not need to cast it in a round at all, and that's if they even take it as they have no shortage of other options.
And no, Stunning Strike isn't the only thing that matters to Monks. Claiming such only highlights that you completely ignore subclass options in favour of what seems like the fanciest most special thing you can do every turn
A lot of subclass options don't scale well at all; four elements has plenty of other options they can use, but most won't even begin to compete for the value of landing a Stunning Strike because Stunning Strike doesn't just boost the Monk's damage, but the entire party's, while protecting said entire party from reprisals by that enemy. It's a very powerful ability.
Some sublcasses have decent options, but many of them can be used in addition to Stunning Strike, such as an Astral Self's Astral Arms, or Way of Mercy's Hands of Harm etc.
That you don't bother playing a Monk properly
That you immediately resort to hurling personal insults yet again only highlights your lack of good faith argument. Is it really so much to ask that you are actually civil for once in this thread? Otherwise it's only a matter of time before you are being reported to moderators again.
I've played a half dozen "pure" monks, plus a few multiclassed characters (usually monk/cleric), which you'd know if you asked rather than just deciding that everybody who won't agree with you that Monk is perfect as it is must just not know how to play as a Monk.
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they aren't talking about stunning strike, they were basically referencing wholeness of body. He elaborated to describe it as per day type features.
and most people talking about the flaws of UA6 monk aren't demanding stunning strikes return. Their beef is monk was already bad, and almost nothing they did in UA improved monk base class. Experienced monk players already rarely spammed stunning strike, Its actually extremely overated as an option. If you spend 4 ki to stop one turn of one enemy, you gave up 4 attacks worth of damage, and other options. There are situations where its worth it, but those are few, because the zero Ki monk is a waste of space.
Stun doesn't just stop the enemy, it gives everyone in your party advantage on attacks against them. 4 ki to pull off 1 stun is better than 4 ki for 4 attacks in almost every case:
5e Monk: You DPR: advantage increases your chance to hit on your next turn by 0.23, which you can combine with FoB for 0.23*(4/3) = 31% increase in your DPR, plus 23% increase in DPR for everyone that uses attacks in your party, which works out to 2 whole attacks worth of damage (assuming at 1 other attack-based character in the party). Plus you reduce damage done by that enemy by 100%.
Essentially, monks can usually spend ~1 ki per round, if 1 extra attack is likely to kill your target you should use it for FoB otherwise you should use it for Stunning Strike.
gaining advantage in one dnd is not a big deal any more. most classes have multiple methods of gaining advantage, rogues hide, sorecers innate magic, anyone within 5ft prone, invisible, features, masteries, etc.
also, its not simple as 1 attack killing your target, its one attack per round killing your target 1 round earlier. A stun usually takes 2.5-3.5 times to land, so you are giving up 2.5-3.5 of your attacks (or Ki features) per short rest, to stop the monster from doing damage for a single round. (and you can consider they will still use their best abilities, so its probably the monster's most basic attack option round they lose)
so for comparison, monsters usually have under 40% hit rate against pcs at CR 10. they usually can do 65 damage if they land attacks, so 26 dpr or less under level 10. This doesnt include mitigation like wearing a shield, prone grapple, uncanny dodge, rage, etc.
now way of the mercy, from level 5-10 can 100% heal d8+4 per Ki. 21.5-29.7 healing could be done for every stun landed on average. seems to be about even.
A CR10 enemy probably has 206-210 hp. assuming 4 players, to kill it in two rounds, each player needs to contribute 26dpr. the monk with no Ki dpr(with advantage) is 22 in that lvl range
How many fights does a single rounds worth of damage decide the fight? And many classes have other ways to negate or mitigate an enemies effectiveness. Stun is simply one of the more obvious one.
And specifically in 5e, at level 5-8 for example, the concept of spending all your Ki round 1 in order to stop one round of attacks, is probably a bad idea. A really bad idea if they don't rest after every fight. 1 round of damage to be useless till the next short rest
I'm not claiming its garbage, I'm saying its best usecase is a lot more narrow than people think, especially in one dnd.
because after that, you can't flurry, can't dodge, cant stun. cant use subclass ki You are the least effective character in the game in round 2, and all you did was stop one round of attacks, that let's be 100% honest, was unlikely to kill anyone any way. You were effective for one round and ineffective for 3 rounds. That is rarely a good idea
Do I have laundry list of ideas of how to improve the Monk, yes. Do we all have different ideas on how the monk should play, yes. If you could only make 2 changes to the UA6 base monk to improve its play, what changes would you make?
For me I would have unarmored defense include a mini disengage:
1ST LEVEL: UNARMORED DEFENSE While you aren’t wearing any armor or wielding a Shield, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Wisdom modifiers. Additionally while unarmored, as bonus action you can select one creature within 5ft of you to be unable to make Attacks of Opportunity against you until the end of your turn.
This could also instead be done as part of Martial Arts, working similarly to the mobile feat or swashbuckler’s fancy footwork. My fear there is giving an action economy free disengage makes step of the wind useless and is something the drunken master does with its FoB.
I would also make sure Monk didn’t lose its additional attack when it chooses to do something other than FoB:
Flurry of Blows. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to make two Unarmed Strikes as a Bonus Action.
Patient Defense. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to take the Dodge action as a Bonus Action. You may also make one Unarmed Strike as part of this bonus action.
Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to do 2 of the following as a Bonus action: use the Disengage action, use the Dash action and your jump distance is doubled for the turn, or make one Unarmed Strike.
Honestly if I just got those changes I could be content. I have a whole rewrite with a new strike system to give options other than stunning strike, but it’s far beyond the scope of what WotC is going to do for the Monk. Honestly looking at my response to Lilith post earlier I requested more changes in that post than they are probably willing to do. So if you only get 2 changes, what are they?
unarmed masteries (multiple options)
dodge/pd usable as BA, or with Ki, at the option of the player.
I’ve probably spent more time theorising about monk than you have simply because you apparently despise minmaxing and multiclassing. All my disgusting powergaming has left me with only one conclusion - a level one monk dip into either fighter or barbarian is stronger than monk could ever be. Whether you multiclass into Path of the Beast and get 4 attacks per turn at level 6, plus better ability scores for unarmoured defence, or you take advantage of the now-apparently-defunct unarmed fighting style 2nd level and have 2 d8+DEX attacks, more HP and equivalent AC, as well as still having more ASIs than the monk. The only time I’d go further is 4 monk levels to either pick up the free +2 AC from Kensei, 2/short rest pass without trace from Shadow, or the reach, force damage, and WIS attack/damage/grapple/athletics from Astral, and the ASI.
At 6th level, barb 5/monk 1 with 18 DEX and 17 CON has 17 AC. It has rage. It has a higher consistent DPR than a 20th level monk. If you want to prove monk is on par with other martials, make the best monk build you possibly can, drawing on your vast experience playing monk, and I’ll make a fighter. I’ll even make a barbarian. The other martial will wipe the floor with the monk every. single. time. It’s just a worse pick. It’s plagued by action economy problems and resource scarcity. Its recharge is tied to an inconsistent rest. It lacks survivability. Its only variety stems from subclasses. Why should all us horrible minmaxers have any less of a valued opinion than you, especially when you strawman, ad hominem, and mislead constantly? You can keep your 2014 monk if you want. I’d would like one that at 20th level can’t be outdamaged and outmanuevered by a mildly minmaxed 10th level build.
Your theorizing doesn't change the numerous features Monk get, the subclass advantages, or just the fact that the Beast Barbarian's natural weapons are not unarmed strikes.
There is literally no point in trying to discuss this with the Monk Bad crowd. All they know is abuse and vitriol the moment someone doesn't immediately accept their blatant garbage and ignorance as unquestionable truth. Their only tactic is abuse and hate towards the creators, the players, and anyone else who dares to enjoy a class as it is instead of letting it be their OP power-fantasy.
It doesn’t matter if the beast barbarian’s claws are unarmed or not. They can still use the unarmed strike bonus action. Four attacks per turn. At level 6. For no ki cost.
Also, next time you don’t read my post and prove my point by yet again engaging in ad hominem, try not to make it so obvious. I literally said in my post that if you enjoy the class, leave off. Just use the old monk if you like it so much. The rest of the thread might want to engage in discussion about changing the monk, since that’s it says in the title.
Are you going to respond to my post, or are you going to pick out one thing you think you can refute, get it wrong, and then throw some meaningless shit at me again and hope it sticks? I’ve never been more tempted to hit ‘ignore user’. In one hundred pages the only thing you’ve contributed to the discussion is personal attacks. I won’t, though, on the off chance you raise an actual point.
EDIT: I also mentioned the subclass advantages in my post. Twice. You just ignored my whole point about one level of monk MC’ed into another martial is a better monk than monk, because it doesn’t fit with your narrative that we all hate that the monk isn’t a superpowered minmaxer’s dream on steroids, and that we all want free monk abilities 24/7.
I can’t believe I read someone claim mobile isn’t a good feat for a monk. It makes you wonder if they have actually played a monk or even seen a monk in play. To use any hit and run strategies from a monk of any subclass requires either a ki point, action economy, a situational circumstance or some combo of those 3. Mobile saves the monk ki points and frees up their action economy.
Because you don't need to use "hit and run" strategies as a Monk?
Because, no matter what power-gamers and "theorycrafters" believe, one less HP per level and 17 AC instead of 19 doesn't mean the Monk crumbles like a cracker the moment enemies look at them the wrong way. (The same people, incidentally, are also strong believers that Blade/Valor Bards are perfectly viable in melee with the same d8 hit die. Don't ask me how that logic works out.
If you're playing a Monk by rushing in and facemashing against every enemy the way you would with a AC-specced Fighter, you're playing Monk wrong and you know it. If your DM has every enemy focus-fire on your Monk because they have one or two AC lower than the Fighter or Paladin, you're playing with a terrible DM, not a terrible class.
Every Monk I've played, every Monk I've played with, every single one, has not taken Mobile. None of them has ever had a problem with being swarmed by enemies, none of them has ever been in a situation where a free single-target Disengage would have been fruitful, and none of them has ever longed for that extra 10 feet of movement. Every one of them has kept out of dangerous situations by taking advantage of their class and subclass features, and by actually playing smart and to the Monk's strengths.
But that's people who play Monk.
you don't actually play monk, please send your friends who play monk into the discussion, because most of your takes are not accurate.
You also baselessly ignore the wealth of information which doesnt align with your views.
youtubers: They are crazy and all want monk to be insanely powerful (why only monk? no idea)
Survey results; they were manipulated by youtubers.
Detailed mathematical analysis; hold on let me do a less detailed mathematical analysis and declare it superior
tons of monk players in a forum spending pages discussing monk. They all must be wrong, out make monk OP.
It doesn’t matter if the beast barbarian’s claws are unarmed or not. They can still use the unarmed strike bonus action. Four attacks per turn. At level 6. For no ki cost.
All at lower dice than the Monk's three attacks, and without further martial-arts scaling, and without factoring in limited rages, and without factoring in the Monk's own limited-use features, and without factoring in the Monk's own subclass features.
But that doesn't matter, because you think we're all stupid.
OK, we factor in monk subclass features. Oh, whoops! No damage increase. Not without ki. I’m also talking about 2014 monk, in case that wasn’t clear, hence my use of the unarmed fighting style in my theorising. In 2014, monk MA die size is the same at 6th level as the claws. Beast barb just gets an extra attack on top of the three d6 attacks. Beast barb also is much less MAD, has much higher HP, outmanoeuvres monk due to the jump boost it can get at 6th level, and even with Tasha’s gets extra proficiencies where monk gets extra ways to spend ki. Monk wants to outpace that multiclass, it runs out of ki much faster than the barbarian runs out of rages. It can’t even outrun it, rage or no.
For anyone wanting monks to have light or medium armor proficiency they can get it under the new rules. You get a feat when you choose your character backround at level 1. With the customized background option you can choose a first level feat which in this case would be the lightly armored feat.
LIGHTLY ARMORED 1st-Level Feat Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No You gain the following Armor Training: Light Armor, Medium Armor, and Shield.
You still lose a bunch of monk class features while wearing armor, but medium armor monk is totally legal under the new rules.
And also the Weapon Training Feat which gives acces to martial weapon proficiency does boost your dex score by +1. So for those who want better weapons for monk it could happen at level 4 and bump your dex from 17 to 18.
I do believe tashas dedicated weapon option will be in the next monk update so weapon masteries for some martial weapons i think will be possible.🤞
For anyone wanting monks to have light or medium armor proficiency they can get it under the new rules. You get a feat when you choose your character backround at level 1. With the customized background option you can choose a first level feat which in this case would be the lightly armored feat.
LIGHTLY ARMORED 1st-Level Feat Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No You gain the following Armor Training: Light Armor, Medium Armor, and Shield.
You still loose a bunch of monk class features while wearing armor, but medium armor monk is totally legal under the new rules.
And also the Weapon Training Feat which gives acces to martial weapon proficiency does boost your dex score by +1. So for those who want better weapons for monk it could happen at level 4 and bump your dex from 17 to 18.
I do believe tashas dedicated weapon option will be in the next monk update so weapon masteries for some martial weapons i think will be possible.🤞
Losing most your Monk features makes it pointless. Also why should Monk have to pay a feat tax when the most comparable class the Barbarian gets a better version of Unarmored Defense that works with a shield and the option to just wear Armor if they don’t have the stats to make Unarmored Defense work well. I personally would never want my monk in Armor, but for people who want to play Str Monk and those who don’t want to invest in Wisdom early wearing armor can help until they get enough ASI to leave it behind. It’s about making the class more flexible, and allowing builds that more people want to play.
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Should be noted that crusher is good right now, but the playtest monk does force damage not bludgeoning damage so it doesn't work for that monk anymore.
Other than that I actually agree that many of the subclasses provide a hit and run option. Unfortunately they are almost all limited.
Elements is great by keeping the monk at range as their 1 ki point can keep them running for the whole fight.
Hand, is unfortunate in that it needs to spend ki each time as well as its bonus action and the opponent gets a save making it very risky.
Shadow has the darkness tricks which is great.
Mercy is the one that doesn't really get a hit and run option until around 6.
I was actually planning on doing a level by level rogue vs monk comparison as they are both the "hit and run" classes but work load is way too much to make that post.
My beliefs fully.
Level 1-8 there isn't enough out of combat stuff for the monk. 11 you already know. Ironically your fix came close to mine. Both of our 11 fix allows for 3 attacks and patient defense/step of wind. Yours allows defense AND 4 attacks with 2 ki. Mine did not allow that at all. Yours allows 4 attacks with 1 ki. Mine allows 4 with none and 5 with 1.
Your solution means the monk will burn through resources faster at a time when other characters are having more resources and those resources are getting stronger.
Honestly I would be fine with martial arts not scaling past a d8 if that means the monk can get the 3rd attack at level 11, but the issue with that is some subclass scalings. Elements aoe is already not super great making it not scale would be even worse.
But I am still excited to see what WoTC has for us. I suspect we may get to do some cool things without ki and cool things with ki.
Edit: (I want to specify that I want 11 better because I want to encourage LESS multiclassing.) This UA the best way to scale into T3 is to multiclass out around level 8. Fighter gives action surge, better weapons, extra health a fighting style the heightened metabolism is great synergy with abilities that recover on a short rest... like action surge. Which I dont actually have an issue with it just sucks when it is obvious that MCing out is the better way almost every time. Having things better at 10 and 11 entices continuation to 12 which entices continuation to 14 to get diamond soul.... so on and so forth. From this play test I go 9 for wall run MC to fighter for second wind and action surge then battle master manuevers and asi one level late for wis increase level 5 for tactical maneuver and 6 for asi one level early for 20 wis a whole level early maybe delaying it to 16 for a level dip of a caster to get resistance at the same level diamond soul is available. Same thing happens with barbarian. Not much of a point to go past 8 instead of MCING out.
I haven't read the last 5 pages of posts.
But damn. Jeremy gave that interview like he was having a 'Nam flashback. The responses must have been almost as brutal as we are.
You are right, they will not dump WIS on the monk. This was just a “wish list” to make monks less MAD. For me it isn’t so I can dip. I prefer straight class design the same reason I never wanted unarmed and monk weapons to become finesse (even though they are finesse all in but name)
Also, I don’t think his comment on least played was based on survey results but from data pulled fro DDB.
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I can’t believe I read someone claim mobile isn’t a good feat for a monk. It makes you wonder if they have actually played a monk or even seen a monk in play. To use any hit and run strategies from a monk of any subclass requires either a ki point, action economy, a situational circumstance or some combo of those 3. Mobile saves the monk ki points and frees up their action economy.
Oh it's an absolutely fantastic feat for Monk; I'd probably argue that Crusher might slightly edge it out though, at least for me.
Firstly it's a half feat, so it has a lower "cost" than Mobile, especially since part of what you're giving up is for extra speed that a Monk doesn't really need more of. But it really comes down to the 5 foot nudge on bludgeoning damage; you can use to effectively Disengage for "free", but by moving the enemy you can do that not just for yourself but also vulnerable allies (or both) and you can also use it to nudge an enemy back into an area of effect, towards a ledge etc. which can set them up for a Shove (or Open Hand Technique).
The "stun-lite" on critical is also nice, and with Flurry of Blows a Monk can trigger it a decent amount, though I generally don't like critical hit abilities all that much (can't rely on them to happen when you need them, but when it does it's a free party boost).
While Mobile is good, my biggest problem with it is that Monk shouldn't need it in the first place; Monk is already fast, and can already Disengage, the benefit of the feat is that it doesn't have the cost to both action economy and Ki points that Step of the Wind does, but that feels like fixing something wrong with the class rather than really giving you something you should be spending a precious feat choice on.
So I'd rather see parts of both integrated; i.e- let Step of the Wind be free for a single Dash or Disengage, as for a Monk the bonus action cost is already plenty (since you're losing anything else you could be doing with that bonus action). Then give us some versatile control abilities; it's amazing how much potential utility Crusher's free once per turn 5 foot nudge gives you, and those are the types of features I want to see more of. They're not especially powerful effects, but they're useful in ways that can make them so much more important, as even with free Step of the Wind it would still be saving you a bonus action when you can "disengage" without it.
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Actually, the monk has the choice to do Force or normal damage. So if your target does not have resistance to Bludgeoning then Crusher still works just fine. The problem comes in when the resistance is there. We will have to see how they are handling resistances on monsters in future UA’s. It might not be as plentiful, who knows.
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I agree with you that monk damage in tier 1 is already good. I did not even think the martial arts die needed to start at 1d6. Giving monks the damage boost in tier 1 is not where it was needed, it was needed in tier 3 and 4.
Having not enough ki at low levels was not about damage though. It was about being denied use of features that prevented you from playing the fantasy of the monk. The most obvious example of this was 4 elements monk where if you cast a spell you lost your ability to use FOB, PD or Sotw. Thats why it only scored 11% satisfaction. You HAD to choose between either a subclass feature or a class feature and using one automatically forced you to sacrifice the use of another.
That mechanic still exists. If you are playing a shadow monk and cast darkness it forces you to lose a use of FOB, PD or Sotw. Subclass features are suppose to be in addition to core class features, not at the expense of core class features. This goes beyond simple resource management.
In tier one and two this mechanic feels really bad and jeremy crawford and the designers agreed that discipline points were too restrictive. That was the main point he made regarding playtest 8.
Suggestions like boosting starting ki or making FOB, sotw and PD free are just ideas people are putting out there to try and resolve their frustrations around playing monk. If you dont have such frustrations then i am very happy for you.
The difference is that a Swords/Valor Bard is still a full caster capable of bolstering their defence with spells or healing damage that they take; the Monk's defence is limited.
If the intention is for Monks to be frontline fighters then they don't have enough defence to justify that role without using Patient Defense, but if they use Patient Defense then their damage output suffers. While Patient Defense is great at certain levels, eventually Fighters will outperform them in both offence and defence simultaneously.
When people complain about Monk defence/damage they're not usually referring to earlier tiers when it's fine (AC 16-18 is plenty for tiers 1 and 2, Monks do good damage early on etc.) but into tiers 3 and 4 the Fighter just keeps on scaling but the Monk only competes thanks to Stunning Strike (except now they don't in the OneD&D playtest because it got nerfed). Not that the nerfing is the problem, as many people don't want Stunning Strike to be the only thing Monks can do to keep up, but it got nerfed with no replacement.
Swords/Valor bards meanwhile can pick up all sorts of goodies, or just focus on casting more later on.
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Wow. Your autopilot response to anyone who wants to build a better monk seems to be that they want access to every monk feature all the time. That is soooo far off base from what i was posting i dont even know if you are even understanding what i was talking about. I was not validating that Sotw, PD and flurry or blows should be free. I dont think they should be. I was merely expressing why people are coming up with such ideas in the first place.
On the contrary. A full caster with medium armour and a shield has a baseline AC as good as a monk for much less stat investment.
Also, when someone says stunning strike is what keeps monk going, you say there’s great subclass features. You don’t actually give specific examples. Off the top of my head, the only T3 scaling that occurs on subclasses is an extra MA die per turn from astral self and maybe a couple of AoE abilities which take your action and cannot reliably out damage your attack action even when hitting 3 or 4 targets despite the opportunity cost, ki cost and action cost.
I’ve probably spent more time theorising about monk than you have simply because you apparently despise minmaxing and multiclassing. All my disgusting powergaming has left me with only one conclusion - a level one monk dip into either fighter or barbarian is stronger than monk could ever be. Whether you multiclass into Path of the Beast and get 4 attacks per turn at level 6, plus better ability scores for unarmoured defence, or you take advantage of the now-apparently-defunct unarmed fighting style 2nd level and have 2 d8+DEX attacks, more HP and equivalent AC, as well as still having more ASIs than the monk. The only time I’d go further is 4 monk levels to either pick up the free +2 AC from Kensei, 2/short rest pass without trace from Shadow, or the reach, force damage, and WIS attack/damage/grapple/athletics from Astral, and the ASI.
At 6th level, barb 5/monk 1 with 18 DEX and 17 CON has 17 AC. It has rage. It has a higher consistent DPR than a 20th level monk. If you want to prove monk is on par with other martials, make the best monk build you possibly can, drawing on your vast experience playing monk, and I’ll make a fighter. I’ll even make a barbarian. The other martial will wipe the floor with the monk every. single. time. It’s just a worse pick. It’s plagued by action economy problems and resource scarcity. Its recharge is tied to an inconsistent rest. It lacks survivability. Its only variety stems from subclasses. Why should all us horrible minmaxers have any less of a valued opinion than you, especially when you strawman, ad hominem, and mislead constantly? You can keep your 2014 monk if you want. I’d would like one that at 20th level can’t be outdamaged and outmanuevered by a mildly minmaxed 10th level build.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
It was in 5e, but every other class has gotten significant boosts to damage in 5eR and monk got... +1 damage on some of their attacks. Now monks are mediocre in tier 1 and trash in tier 2+. I just make a LOLs build in another thread that was : 1-Rogue, 1-Fighter, 1-Bard, 1-Sorcerer, 1-Warlock and it does comparable damage to a 5th level monk, has way better utility than a 5th level monk and has way better defenses than a 5th level monk.
You accuse me of not knowing how to play Monk, and then immediately claim the Swords/Valor Bard will just cast shield every turn? For one thing, Swords/Valor bards both have access to medium armor, while Valor can take a shield (the item), plus Swords bards can use Defensive Flourish for an average 4-5 AC boost at 5th-level, and it doesn't cost them any of their action economy.
There are also plenty of spells that can give good defensive boosts and have more than a single turn duration, like mirror image (if you have time to set it up), or you might use a magical secret to nab shadow of moil or something else exotic, potentially boosting both your defence and offence for only a single spell slot per casting.
They only need to cast shield (the spell) if they still get hit in spite of all this, meaning they may not need to cast it in a round at all, and that's if they even take it as they have no shortage of other options.
A lot of subclass options don't scale well at all; four elements has plenty of other options they can use, but most won't even begin to compete for the value of landing a Stunning Strike because Stunning Strike doesn't just boost the Monk's damage, but the entire party's, while protecting said entire party from reprisals by that enemy. It's a very powerful ability.
Some sublcasses have decent options, but many of them can be used in addition to Stunning Strike, such as an Astral Self's Astral Arms, or Way of Mercy's Hands of Harm etc.
That you immediately resort to hurling personal insults yet again only highlights your lack of good faith argument. Is it really so much to ask that you are actually civil for once in this thread? Otherwise it's only a matter of time before you are being reported to moderators again.
I've played a half dozen "pure" monks, plus a few multiclassed characters (usually monk/cleric), which you'd know if you asked rather than just deciding that everybody who won't agree with you that Monk is perfect as it is must just not know how to play as a Monk.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
gaining advantage in one dnd is not a big deal any more. most classes have multiple methods of gaining advantage, rogues hide, sorecers innate magic, anyone within 5ft prone, invisible, features, masteries, etc.
also, its not simple as 1 attack killing your target, its one attack per round killing your target 1 round earlier. A stun usually takes 2.5-3.5 times to land, so you are giving up 2.5-3.5 of your attacks (or Ki features) per short rest, to stop the monster from doing damage for a single round. (and you can consider they will still use their best abilities, so its probably the monster's most basic attack option round they lose)
so for comparison, monsters usually have under 40% hit rate against pcs at CR 10. they usually can do 65 damage if they land attacks, so 26 dpr or less under level 10. This doesnt include mitigation like wearing a shield, prone grapple, uncanny dodge, rage, etc.
now way of the mercy, from level 5-10 can 100% heal d8+4 per Ki. 21.5-29.7 healing could be done for every stun landed on average. seems to be about even.
A CR10 enemy probably has 206-210 hp. assuming 4 players, to kill it in two rounds, each player needs to contribute 26dpr. the monk with no Ki dpr(with advantage) is 22 in that lvl range
How many fights does a single rounds worth of damage decide the fight? And many classes have other ways to negate or mitigate an enemies effectiveness. Stun is simply one of the more obvious one.
And specifically in 5e, at level 5-8 for example, the concept of spending all your Ki round 1 in order to stop one round of attacks, is probably a bad idea. A really bad idea if they don't rest after every fight. 1 round of damage to be useless till the next short rest
I'm not claiming its garbage, I'm saying its best usecase is a lot more narrow than people think, especially in one dnd.
because after that, you can't flurry, can't dodge, cant stun. cant use subclass ki You are the least effective character in the game in round 2, and all you did was stop one round of attacks, that let's be 100% honest, was unlikely to kill anyone any way. You were effective for one round and ineffective for 3 rounds. That is rarely a good idea
unarmed masteries (multiple options)
dodge/pd usable as BA, or with Ki, at the option of the player.
dps fix, preferably through a fun mechanic
It doesn’t matter if the beast barbarian’s claws are unarmed or not. They can still use the unarmed strike bonus action. Four attacks per turn. At level 6. For no ki cost.
Also, next time you don’t read my post and prove my point by yet again engaging in ad hominem, try not to make it so obvious. I literally said in my post that if you enjoy the class, leave off. Just use the old monk if you like it so much. The rest of the thread might want to engage in discussion about changing the monk, since that’s it says in the title.
Are you going to respond to my post, or are you going to pick out one thing you think you can refute, get it wrong, and then throw some meaningless shit at me again and hope it sticks? I’ve never been more tempted to hit ‘ignore user’. In one hundred pages the only thing you’ve contributed to the discussion is personal attacks. I won’t, though, on the off chance you raise an actual point.
EDIT: I also mentioned the subclass advantages in my post. Twice. You just ignored my whole point about one level of monk MC’ed into another martial is a better monk than monk, because it doesn’t fit with your narrative that we all hate that the monk isn’t a superpowered minmaxer’s dream on steroids, and that we all want free monk abilities 24/7.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
you don't actually play monk, please send your friends who play monk into the discussion, because most of your takes are not accurate.
You also baselessly ignore the wealth of information which doesnt align with your views.
youtubers: They are crazy and all want monk to be insanely powerful (why only monk? no idea)
Survey results; they were manipulated by youtubers.
Detailed mathematical analysis; hold on let me do a less detailed mathematical analysis and declare it superior
tons of monk players in a forum spending pages discussing monk. They all must be wrong, out make monk OP.
OK, we factor in monk subclass features. Oh, whoops! No damage increase. Not without ki. I’m also talking about 2014 monk, in case that wasn’t clear, hence my use of the unarmed fighting style in my theorising. In 2014, monk MA die size is the same at 6th level as the claws. Beast barb just gets an extra attack on top of the three d6 attacks. Beast barb also is much less MAD, has much higher HP, outmanoeuvres monk due to the jump boost it can get at 6th level, and even with Tasha’s gets extra proficiencies where monk gets extra ways to spend ki. Monk wants to outpace that multiclass, it runs out of ki much faster than the barbarian runs out of rages. It can’t even outrun it, rage or no.
I’ll ignore the personal attack.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Just an FYI.
For anyone wanting monks to have light or medium armor proficiency they can get it under the new rules. You get a feat when you choose your character backround at level 1. With the customized background option you can choose a first level feat which in this case would be the lightly armored feat.
LIGHTLY ARMORED 1st-Level Feat Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No You gain the following Armor Training: Light Armor, Medium Armor, and Shield.
You still lose a bunch of monk class features while wearing armor, but medium armor monk is totally legal under the new rules.
And also the Weapon Training Feat which gives acces to martial weapon proficiency does boost your dex score by +1. So for those who want better weapons for monk it could happen at level 4 and bump your dex from 17 to 18.
I do believe tashas dedicated weapon option will be in the next monk update so weapon masteries for some martial weapons i think will be possible.🤞
Losing most your Monk features makes it pointless. Also why should Monk have to pay a feat tax when the most comparable class the Barbarian gets a better version of Unarmored Defense that works with a shield and the option to just wear Armor if they don’t have the stats to make Unarmored Defense work well. I personally would never want my monk in Armor, but for people who want to play Str Monk and those who don’t want to invest in Wisdom early wearing armor can help until they get enough ASI to leave it behind. It’s about making the class more flexible, and allowing builds that more people want to play.