if it were me, I would make the creature waste its legendary resistances with stunning strikes and when it has no more legendary resistances I would go with QP.
Interesting, but I feel like I should remind that in One D&D SS is limited to 1/turn and with 17 DP to burn you can use SS + FoB every round and still have DP to spare.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
The scenario you just made up for QP to not be better than just attacking is wild. Magic Resistance is resistance to spells which QP is not. Yes they could us Legendary resistance to automatically half the damage, but unless they were immune to a bunch of conditions they just wasted an LR which might have been needed to save against your stun, or many of your party’s spellcaster’s conditions. I think on average 5eR QP is almost double the damage of a normal round of just attacking with FoB. Since 5eR is moving away from “counts as magical for over coming resistances,” All the monks real damage comes force damage, in the scenario that they just whip out a potion of force resistance then all your damage is halved anyway. QP is still doing more damage than just attacking. You also just made the target waste it’s action drinking that potion, so the rest of your party is happy it didn’t deal damage to anyone that turn.
The whole you drop any creature to zero was cool for RP, but broken mechanically. I think adding the use of additional DP above the initial 3 spent to add 2d12+2 damage per point spent up to your proficiency bonus total on any turn would give the option of more damage at a fair cost. That gets you to 16d12+23 at 17th. Also I would want it to be force, necrotic, or thunder damage your choice when you use this feature. That helps cover more damage types.
Edit: Ki/Discipline are magical in nature thus making QP a magical effect giving things advantage against the save.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
As already explained, this feature is a way to force the enemy to surrender and not to be Kenshiro and say that famous phrase "You are already dead!" The Open Hand style monk "should" (then it is the player's choice), but at least it is designed with the goal of not wanting to kill unless absolutely necessary.
But since 80 % of the people like to slaughter and explode enemies the author's design is a bit wasted.
These are details that can help in the character's RPG and give hints of the character's psychological behavior (not very important, but we still respect the author's idea).
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
The problem with quivering palm is mostly that there's a chance of it being wasted due to the target being defeated before your next action. I was evaluating it as +30 dpr on the turns when it can be used, but then assuming it's only usable one round in 4 (it's usable a maximum of one round in 2, but if the target is already down or nearly down when your next turn arrives, which is pretty common in a fight against multiple foes, it winds up not being used).
The original intent of quivering palm is pretty clearly Dim Mak techniques, which are really more 'plot device to use against a PC' than something meant for combat use.
The problem with quivering palm is mostly that there's a chance of it being wasted due to the target being defeated before your next action. I was evaluating it as +30 dpr on the turns when it can be used, but then assuming it's only usable one round in 4 (it's usable a maximum of one round in 2, but if the target is already down or nearly down when your next turn arrives, which is pretty common in a fight against multiple foes, it winds up not being used).
The original intent of quivering palm is pretty clearly Dim Mak techniques, which are really more 'plot device to use against a PC' than something meant for combat use.
That’s a problem when a high level feature doesn’t work in combat. This feature has the opposite effect of working too well in combat. Maybe a way to bring back that great RP part to QP is to make it so every hour the damage increases by 1d12 to a max of 100d12. That way it’s not broken in combat but it’s still can drop a creature from full health days later. Note this version is stronger the current QP since even on a save after 90 hours most creatures are dying from it.
That’s a problem when a high level feature doesn’t work in combat. This feature has the opposite effect of working too well in combat.
Eh, the 1DD version is fine; it's about right for a tier 4 upgrade. Possibly on the weak side, 85 damage (requires a con save, requires setup) isn't all that hot, the assassin's Death Strike averages over 90 and is probably more reliably usable.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
As already explained, this feature is a way to force the enemy to surrender and not to be Kenshiro and say that famous phrase "You are already dead!" The Open Hand style monk "should" (then it is the player's choice), but at least it is designed with the goal of not wanting to kill unless absolutely necessary.
But since 80 % of the people like to slaughter and explode enemies the author's design is a bit wasted.
These are details that can help in the character's RPG and give hints of the character's psychological behavior (not very important, but we still respect the author's idea).
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
So? If you made the Tarrasque use up all its Legendary Resistances then one bad roll on Dominate Monster and it's dead, or one bad roll on Hold Monster and it's dead, or .. just casting Forcecage on it and it's dead (that one doesn't even have a saving throw!), or one bad roll on True Polymorph and it's effectively dead, or one bad roll on Banishment and it could be dead.....
I think some, probably myself included, feel like it is wasting a turn as it isn’t immediate. Like if a Paladin hit with their weapon and used their highest spell slot to smite. But you don’t smite on that hit, you just set it up. Then you have to use your action the next turn to deliver your smite damage. I don’t think many people would like that.
Edit: would it be better or worse if you end the vibrations as a bonus action?
I suggest some creativity on Quivering Palm. There is more than 1 way to kill a monster. Besides dropping to 0 HP, a creature can be killed with sufficient levels of Exhaustion. Previous UA had a target die after 10 levels of Exhaustion. I am assuming UA6 did not included the new Exhaustion rules for brevity.
From the Druid & Paladin UA
EXHAUSTED [CONDITION]
While Exhausted (known in older books as Exhaustion), you experience the following effects: Levels of Exhaustion. This condition is cumulative. Each time you receive it, you gain 1 level of exhaustion. You die if your exhaustion level exceeds 10.
d20 Rolls Affected. When you make a d20 Test, you subtract your exhaustion level from the d20 roll.
Spell Save DCs Affected. Subtract your exhaustion level from the Spell Save DC of any spell you cast.
Ending the Condition. Finishing a Long Rest removes 1 of your levels of exhaustion. When your exhaustion level reaches 0, you are no longer Exhausted.
Lets take a look at the desired use cases of Quivering Palm.
Raw Damage: As has been pointed out, the damage from UA6 Quivering Palm is comparable to a round of attacks. Exhaustion is hard to compare to raw damage. But Exhaustion can make the monster cause less damage to the Player's team.
Insta-kill feeling: 5E Quivering Palm had an instant kill possibility. UA6 does not. Exhaustion can kill a foe even if they have 1,000 HP left.
Negotiation: 5E and 1Dnd Quivering Palm provide a roleplay opportunity for "Do _____ or die." The only way I can think of Exhaustion providing the same thing is if it could be triggered later.
Multiple fights with long/short rests: If you face a dragon, there is a chance it could flee to Short Rest to start the next fight with full HP. 5E and 1Dnd Quivering Palm and Exhaustion can affect the next fight.
This is a chance for a unique ability (aside from Sickening Radiance). For Quivering Palm to cause levels of Exhaustion, I think it should first not require an action. It should just be applied once a turn or on every Unarmed Strike hit. For balancing, the Bane spell is comparable to 2.5 levels of Exhaustion. What save should be used? CON is the most likely save, but I feel Death saves are more thematic. How many Points should it cost? 1 Point per attack to force a saving throw?
But by the standards of the other subclasses it is definitely strong and that is also by the standards of the game. Even the Power Word Kill spell has its limitations to work.
Then I don't think you can compare a 9th level spell with a recharge of a long rest with 3 ki points that can be easily recharged with a short rest.
But I understand that it was the only 17th level monk technique to be called the pinnacle of martial arts.It is the only subclass with such a powerful technique.
That's a problem of the other subclasses, not Open Hand's. The only other monk subclass with such a strong or impactful lvl 17 feature in 5e is Mercy. In this UA, Shadow does have something fitting thematically and powerwise its appropriate (it is not the monk focused on damage); while Elements falls a bit short, but both are way beyond what Hand can do now expending the same amount of DP or even less. The value of ki/DP is not consistent (both in 5e and this UA), I don't compare the value of a spell slot to the value of a ki/DP because of that, I compare the value of a level 17 feature (Quivering Palm) to another one (Power Word Kill), they were somewhat close in 5e, but in this UA QP is far below the power of PWK.
Power Word Kill - 9 enchantment
You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly.If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.
From what I understand, you don't waste 2 turns to use this technique, but a normal unarmed attack that does its normal damage transmits the vibration (no time to calculate), and the next turn up to a maximum of days equal to the monk's level, you can use one action to activate the technique (in which you can still use the bonus action (FoB) or take a vacation, 17-20 days is not a few). So the execution time is one action.
I did say "new" Power Word Kill, the one that deals 12d12 psychic (I think) damage if the target has more than 100 HP and kills it if it doesn't. It is either a certain kill or guaranteed damage, there's no halving this damage with a save, you need resistance or inmunity. To make matters worse, a Bard can actually affect 2 creatures at the same time at level 20, something Quivering Palm cannot do.
You do need at least 2 turns to trigger the vibrations, because the execution time is one action and the monk cannot use the Martial Arts bonus attack if it didn't take the Attack action first, so it's 1 turn attacking to start the vibrations and another turn to actually use them. If you take a vacation, chances are that your target does take one as well (recovering all of its HP in the process), and if it has more than 141 HP, it will survive the max damage output of the UA Quivering Palm.
You did say that limiting QP's uses per rest was a way to adress it's power, I would have been fine with that, even if it already has the limiter of DP and the 2-turn set-up.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
As already explained, this feature is a way to force the enemy to surrender and not to be Kenshiro and say that famous phrase "You are already dead!" The Open Hand style monk "should" (then it is the player's choice), but at least it is designed with the goal of not wanting to kill unless absolutely necessary.
But since 80 % of the people like to slaughter and explode enemies the author's design is a bit wasted.
These are details that can help in the character's RPG and give hints of the character's psychological behavior (not very important, but we still respect the author's idea).
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
So? If you made the Tarrasque use up all its Legendary Resistances then one bad roll on Dominate Monster and it's dead, or one bad roll on Hold Monster and it's dead, or .. just casting Forcecage on it and it's dead (that one doesn't even have a saving throw!), or one bad roll on True Polymorph and it's effectively dead, or one bad roll on Banishment and it could be dead.....
True polymorph is what level spell again? You can only try that once a day. We are talking about 3 ki points, you the monk could be the reason it used up all its legendary resistances and still attempt it again. Tarrasque are immune to all those charm spells you named so those aren’t a problem, and neither is forcecage because a Tarrasque is too large for that. Bansishment does not kill it and if you are on the material plane the Tarrasque comes back after one minute. Plane shift is the spell you need but you only get one attempt at that a day.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
As already explained, this feature is a way to force the enemy to surrender and not to be Kenshiro and say that famous phrase "You are already dead!" The Open Hand style monk "should" (then it is the player's choice), but at least it is designed with the goal of not wanting to kill unless absolutely necessary.
But since 80 % of the people like to slaughter and explode enemies the author's design is a bit wasted.
These are details that can help in the character's RPG and give hints of the character's psychological behavior (not very important, but we still respect the author's idea).
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
So? If you made the Tarrasque use up all its Legendary Resistances then one bad roll on Dominate Monster and it's dead, or one bad roll on Hold Monster and it's dead, or .. just casting Forcecage on it and it's dead (that one doesn't even have a saving throw!), or one bad roll on True Polymorph and it's effectively dead, or one bad roll on Banishment and it could be dead.....
True polymorph is what level spell again? You can only try that once a day. We are talking about 3 ki points, you the monk could be the reason it used up all its legendary resistances and still attempt it again. Tarrasque are immune to all those charm spells you named so those aren’t a problem, and neither is forcecage because a Tarrasque is too large for that. Bansishment does not kill it and if you are on the material plane the Tarrasque comes back after one minute. Plane shift is the spell you need but you only get one attempt at that a day.
That’s a non-point. There’s plenty of high-level creatures who aren’t immune to charmed or are small enough for a forcecage or don’t belong on the Material Plane. A tarrasque is not the only boss in the game.
On one turn you deal regular damage with your attacks and spend 3DP to activate QP on one of your hits. On a subsequent turn you use you action to deliver 10d12+ 17~20 force damage to the target. I don’t understand why people keep saying you waste a turn. You don’t. There is no waste to the action economy except that you can’t also do FoB on the turn you activate QP, but your average damage for QP is far higher than your Average damage for just attacking and FoB. There is no wasted turn.
If QP reliably did damage higher than just attacking this would be true, but it doesn't. If you have advantage on your attacks (pretty easy to achieve) and the enemy has Legendary Resistance or Magic Resistance (very likely in tier 4 play) then you'd be better off just attacking and FoB since you'd get equal damage to QP and you can attempt to stunning strike - which is still the most powerful thing a monk can do [not including the likely case that you have magic items that boost your unarmed strike damage]. If they simply made QP damage irresistible - no immunity, no resistance, no saving throw - then QP would be a fine feature. 3 DP and a full action for unlimited range and 50% increase in damage over attacking and FoB, and it would give it back the RP utility of "you don't know it but you're already dead" since there would be far less variability is its damage output. Whereas right now, you can say "you don't know it but you're already dead" then the target pulls out a potion of Force Resistance and spits in your face "I'd like to see you try.", makes their save and takes only 20 damage...
As already explained, this feature is a way to force the enemy to surrender and not to be Kenshiro and say that famous phrase "You are already dead!" The Open Hand style monk "should" (then it is the player's choice), but at least it is designed with the goal of not wanting to kill unless absolutely necessary.
But since 80 % of the people like to slaughter and explode enemies the author's design is a bit wasted.
These are details that can help in the character's RPG and give hints of the character's psychological behavior (not very important, but we still respect the author's idea).
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
So? If you made the Tarrasque use up all its Legendary Resistances then one bad roll on Dominate Monster and it's dead, or one bad roll on Hold Monster and it's dead, or .. just casting Forcecage on it and it's dead (that one doesn't even have a saving throw!), or one bad roll on True Polymorph and it's effectively dead, or one bad roll on Banishment and it could be dead.....
True polymorph is what level spell again? You can only try that once a day. We are talking about 3 ki points, you the monk could be the reason it used up all its legendary resistances and still attempt it again. Tarrasque are immune to all those charm spells you named so those aren’t a problem, and neither is forcecage because a Tarrasque is too large for that. Bansishment does not kill it and if you are on the material plane the Tarrasque comes back after one minute. Plane shift is the spell you need but you only get one attempt at that a day.
That’s a non-point. There’s plenty of high-level creatures who aren’t immune to charmed or are small enough for a forcecage or don’t belong on the Material Plane. A tarrasque is not the only boss in the game.
You made a non point. There are plenty of high level creatures that are immune to charmed and and large enough to avoid force cage, who do belong to the material plane or whatever plane you happen to be combating them on. The unnamed creatures you might be thinking of aren’t the only bosses in the game. A Tarrasque is one such boss that I randomly chose and my point is very valid. The only ability named that is of relatively equal cost to QP is Banishment. Banishment also only sends the creature away. It’s not dead. If it has logic it can be a threat again later when it finds it way back from being banished. QP kills it. All the other spells are of a higher daily resource cost. Most you only get one cast per day. At 17th with 0 rest you do QP 4 times if you knew that was you way to take down a boss.
At 17th with 0 rest you do QP 4 times if you knew that was you way to take down a boss.
Quivering Palm only costs 3 Ki, so you can actually do it five times at 17th-level (17 Ki points), six once you hit 18th-level. If your DM has planned a multi-stage fight, maybe moving through a dungeon with several encounters, so you have time to trigger it that much, it could be pretty brutal, especially since you can trigger it between the stages.
Thinking about it a bit more, I do wonder if the in-combat benefit could be improved simply by allowing you to make your bonus unarmed strike after triggering it as an action? This would give you the chance to potentially trigger Quivering Palm multiple rounds in a row if you can keep hitting with that attack (or spend extra on Flurry of Blows to give you more chances, as 5/6 attempts is more than you're likely to need)?
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Honestly, at this point, if monk scores stay low enough what do you guys think are the chances they just throw the entire class out. Seems to be their go to solution for everything.
In late 1e and in 2e (at least initially) they moved the Monk out of the core rules and into specific settings. I was actually a little surprised when they brought it back into the core rules for 3e (probably because they made Greyhawk the default setting for 3e, and the Scarlet Brotherhood's role there).
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Monk moved to the same later-release as the Artificer, or something like that. I like having the class around, and enjoy playing it, but it doesn't need to be one of the PHB classes, IMO.
In late 1e and in 2e (at least initially) they moved the Monk out of the core rules and into specific settings. I was actually a little surprised when they brought it back into the core rules for 3e (probably because they made Greyhawk the default setting for 3e, and the Scarlet Brotherhood's role there).
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Monk moved to the same later-release as the Artificer, or something like that. I like having the class around, and enjoy playing it, but it doesn't need to be one of the PHB classes, IMO.
Oh no I would not be surprised if they got rid of it and the next time we saw it it was a fighter subclass.
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Interesting, but I feel like I should remind that in One D&D SS is limited to 1/turn and with 17 DP to burn you can use SS + FoB every round and still have DP to spare.
The best you can attack for in a round at level 17 is around 4d12+20 or 2d6+3d12+26 maybe if you have some crazy magic items I’ll give
The scenario you just made up for QP to not be better than just attacking is wild.
Magic Resistance is resistance to spells which QP is not. Yes they could us Legendary resistance to automatically half the damage, but unless they were immune to a bunch of conditions they just wasted an LR which might have been needed to save against your stun, or many of your party’s spellcaster’s conditions. I think on average 5eR QP is almost double the damage of a normal round of just attacking with FoB. Since 5eR is moving away from “counts as magical for over coming resistances,” All the monks real damage comes force damage, in the scenario that they just whip out a potion of force resistance then all your damage is halved anyway. QP is still doing more damage than just attacking. You also just made the target waste it’s action drinking that potion, so the rest of your party is happy it didn’t deal damage to anyone that turn.The whole you drop any creature to zero was cool for RP, but broken mechanically. I think adding the use of additional DP above the initial 3 spent to add 2d12+2 damage per point spent up to your proficiency bonus total on any turn would give the option of more damage at a fair cost. That gets you to 16d12+23 at 17th. Also I would want it to be force, necrotic, or thunder damage your choice when you use this feature. That helps cover more damage types.
Edit: Ki/Discipline are magical in nature thus making QP a magical effect giving things advantage against the save.
It’s also literally broken. Imagine your party is fighting a Tarrasque and your spellcasters already made it use up its Legendary Resistances. It could still have 600hp left and with one bad roll on a con save it’s dead.
The problem with quivering palm is mostly that there's a chance of it being wasted due to the target being defeated before your next action. I was evaluating it as +30 dpr on the turns when it can be used, but then assuming it's only usable one round in 4 (it's usable a maximum of one round in 2, but if the target is already down or nearly down when your next turn arrives, which is pretty common in a fight against multiple foes, it winds up not being used).
The original intent of quivering palm is pretty clearly Dim Mak techniques, which are really more 'plot device to use against a PC' than something meant for combat use.
That’s a problem when a high level feature doesn’t work in combat. This feature has the opposite effect of working too well in combat. Maybe a way to bring back that great RP part to QP is to make it so every hour the damage increases by 1d12 to a max of 100d12. That way it’s not broken in combat but it’s still can drop a creature from full health days later. Note this version is stronger the current QP since even on a save after 90 hours most creatures are dying from it.
Eh, the 1DD version is fine; it's about right for a tier 4 upgrade. Possibly on the weak side, 85 damage (requires a con save, requires setup) isn't all that hot, the assassin's Death Strike averages over 90 and is probably more reliably usable.
So? If you made the Tarrasque use up all its Legendary Resistances then one bad roll on Dominate Monster and it's dead, or one bad roll on Hold Monster and it's dead, or .. just casting Forcecage on it and it's dead (that one doesn't even have a saving throw!), or one bad roll on True Polymorph and it's effectively dead, or one bad roll on Banishment and it could be dead.....
I think some, probably myself included, feel like it is wasting a turn as it isn’t immediate. Like if a Paladin hit with their weapon and used their highest spell slot to smite. But you don’t smite on that hit, you just set it up. Then you have to use your action the next turn to deliver your smite damage. I don’t think many people would like that.
Edit: would it be better or worse if you end the vibrations as a bonus action?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I suggest some creativity on Quivering Palm. There is more than 1 way to kill a monster. Besides dropping to 0 HP, a creature can be killed with sufficient levels of Exhaustion. Previous UA had a target die after 10 levels of Exhaustion. I am assuming UA6 did not included the new Exhaustion rules for brevity.
From the Druid & Paladin UA
EXHAUSTED [CONDITION]
While Exhausted (known in older books as Exhaustion), you experience the following effects: Levels of Exhaustion. This condition is cumulative. Each time you receive it, you gain 1 level of exhaustion. You die if your exhaustion level exceeds 10.
d20 Rolls Affected. When you make a d20 Test, you subtract your exhaustion level from the d20 roll.
Spell Save DCs Affected. Subtract your exhaustion level from the Spell Save DC of any spell you cast.
Ending the Condition. Finishing a Long Rest removes 1 of your levels of exhaustion. When your exhaustion level reaches 0, you are no longer Exhausted.
Lets take a look at the desired use cases of Quivering Palm.
Raw Damage: As has been pointed out, the damage from UA6 Quivering Palm is comparable to a round of attacks. Exhaustion is hard to compare to raw damage. But Exhaustion can make the monster cause less damage to the Player's team.
Insta-kill feeling: 5E Quivering Palm had an instant kill possibility. UA6 does not. Exhaustion can kill a foe even if they have 1,000 HP left.
Negotiation: 5E and 1Dnd Quivering Palm provide a roleplay opportunity for "Do _____ or die." The only way I can think of Exhaustion providing the same thing is if it could be triggered later.
Multiple fights with long/short rests: If you face a dragon, there is a chance it could flee to Short Rest to start the next fight with full HP. 5E and 1Dnd Quivering Palm and Exhaustion can affect the next fight.
This is a chance for a unique ability (aside from Sickening Radiance). For Quivering Palm to cause levels of Exhaustion, I think it should first not require an action. It should just be applied once a turn or on every Unarmed Strike hit. For balancing, the Bane spell is comparable to 2.5 levels of Exhaustion. What save should be used? CON is the most likely save, but I feel Death saves are more thematic. How many Points should it cost? 1 Point per attack to force a saving throw?
That's a problem of the other subclasses, not Open Hand's. The only other monk subclass with such a strong or impactful lvl 17 feature in 5e is Mercy. In this UA, Shadow does have something fitting thematically and powerwise its appropriate (it is not the monk focused on damage); while Elements falls a bit short, but both are way beyond what Hand can do now expending the same amount of DP or even less. The value of ki/DP is not consistent (both in 5e and this UA), I don't compare the value of a spell slot to the value of a ki/DP because of that, I compare the value of a level 17 feature (Quivering Palm) to another one (Power Word Kill), they were somewhat close in 5e, but in this UA QP is far below the power of PWK.
I did say "new" Power Word Kill, the one that deals 12d12 psychic (I think) damage if the target has more than 100 HP and kills it if it doesn't. It is either a certain kill or guaranteed damage, there's no halving this damage with a save, you need resistance or inmunity. To make matters worse, a Bard can actually affect 2 creatures at the same time at level 20, something Quivering Palm cannot do.
You do need at least 2 turns to trigger the vibrations, because the execution time is one action and the monk cannot use the Martial Arts bonus attack if it didn't take the Attack action first, so it's 1 turn attacking to start the vibrations and another turn to actually use them. If you take a vacation, chances are that your target does take one as well (recovering all of its HP in the process), and if it has more than 141 HP, it will survive the max damage output of the UA Quivering Palm.
You did say that limiting QP's uses per rest was a way to adress it's power, I would have been fine with that, even if it already has the limiter of DP and the 2-turn set-up.
True polymorph is what level spell again? You can only try that once a day. We are talking about 3 ki points, you the monk could be the reason it used up all its legendary resistances and still attempt it again. Tarrasque are immune to all those charm spells you named so those aren’t a problem, and neither is forcecage because a Tarrasque is too large for that. Bansishment does not kill it and if you are on the material plane the Tarrasque comes back after one minute. Plane shift is the spell you need but you only get one attempt at that a day.
That’s a non-point. There’s plenty of high-level creatures who aren’t immune to charmed or are small enough for a forcecage or don’t belong on the Material Plane. A tarrasque is not the only boss in the game.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Regular polymorph, then force cage. Even if it reverts back it's too late at that point because the size limit is only when cast.
You made a non point. There are plenty of high level creatures that are immune to charmed and and large enough to avoid force cage, who do belong to the material plane or whatever plane you happen to be combating them on. The unnamed creatures you might be thinking of aren’t the only bosses in the game. A Tarrasque is one such boss that I randomly chose and my point is very valid. The only ability named that is of relatively equal cost to QP is Banishment. Banishment also only sends the creature away. It’s not dead. If it has logic it can be a threat again later when it finds it way back from being banished. QP kills it. All the other spells are of a higher daily resource cost. Most you only get one cast per day. At 17th with 0 rest you do QP 4 times if you knew that was you way to take down a boss.
Quivering Palm only costs 3 Ki, so you can actually do it five times at 17th-level (17 Ki points), six once you hit 18th-level. If your DM has planned a multi-stage fight, maybe moving through a dungeon with several encounters, so you have time to trigger it that much, it could be pretty brutal, especially since you can trigger it between the stages.
Thinking about it a bit more, I do wonder if the in-combat benefit could be improved simply by allowing you to make your bonus unarmed strike after triggering it as an action? This would give you the chance to potentially trigger Quivering Palm multiple rounds in a row if you can keep hitting with that attack (or spend extra on Flurry of Blows to give you more chances, as 5/6 attempts is more than you're likely to need)?
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Honestly, at this point, if monk scores stay low enough what do you guys think are the chances they just throw the entire class out. Seems to be their go to solution for everything.
Would be nice.
It'd end these online arguments.
I think it has been WotC's goal for quite a while, what they did with the monk is a clear nerfing for no reason.
But even if they eliminate it, they can't stop the release of homebrew.
In late 1e and in 2e (at least initially) they moved the Monk out of the core rules and into specific settings. I was actually a little surprised when they brought it back into the core rules for 3e (probably because they made Greyhawk the default setting for 3e, and the Scarlet Brotherhood's role there).
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Monk moved to the same later-release as the Artificer, or something like that. I like having the class around, and enjoy playing it, but it doesn't need to be one of the PHB classes, IMO.
Oh no I would not be surprised if they got rid of it and the next time we saw it it was a fighter subclass.