Maybe at Level 10 add “expertise” with initiative?
About "expertise", I already proposed for the Monk the be a half-expertise, like the Ranger. The Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and expertise in one skill at level 1 (Deft Explorer). If is not wanted that the Monk to be so full Warrior like others, at least grant it versatility.
Then grant the Monk with 3 skill proficiencies, unlock Thieves' Tools access, unlock Perception and Investigation as class skills, and grant expertise in 1 skill at level 1 and another at higher level.
For small parties or if you simply want to cover Rogue role without a Rogue with some efficiency this character could be nice.
I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.
I mean... if you run the numbers this is simply not true. At level 1 (in 5e) Monk starts out as one of the most effective DPR classes in the game, and remains top tier DPR until level 5. At level 5 they start to slip to mid-tier DPR as characters with two-handed weapons gain more of a damage boost from Extra Attack than monk does with their fists and spending ki every turn to get a 4th attack vs PAMs 3 attacks is not yet possible.
By level 12 all other weapon-focused classes get a significant boost to DPR whether from feats (GWM+max STR for Barbs, SS+max DEX for ranger), scaling class features (extra attack for fighters, improved divine smite & scaling spellslots for paladins, scaling sneak attack for rogue, scaling rage damage for Barbs, scaling spells for ranger). Monk has also scaled but is not keeping up, they have +2 damage per hit and only +1 attack per round.
From level 12 onwards monk gains only +1 damage per attack at level 17, their ki is already not a limiting factor at level 12 so they gain no additional damage potential from FoB, so essentially flat-line in terms of DPR from level 12-20 (though they do gain a nice defensive feature at level 14 with Diamond Soul). In contrast, Rogue sneak attack continues to scale, paladin smite slots continue to scale, fighters get more scaling of Action Surge, ranger offensive spells continue to scale (though their basic attacks don't which is why they are also considered a weak class but SS+XbowXpert puts this flat line significantly higher than the monk's flat line), rage damage and critical damage for Barbs continues to scale (though this is also pretty weak scaling which it why they almost all MC at this point),
TL;DR : Monks are great at levels 1-4 but their Monk scaling remains competitive only with feat-less rangers and barbarians but flags behind rogues, paladins, and fighters, and lags behind all other warrior types in feats are allowed, or if magic weapons are provided.
I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.
I mean... if you run the numbers this is simply not true. At level 1 (in 5e) Monk starts out as one of the most effective DPR classes in the game, and remains top tier DPR until level 5. At level 5 they start to slip to mid-tier DPR as characters with two-handed weapons gain more of a damage boost from Extra Attack than monk does with their fists and spending ki every turn to get a 4th attack vs PAMs 3 attacks is not yet possible.
By level 12 all other weapon-focused classes get a significant boost to DPR whether from feats (GWM+max STR for Barbs, SS+max DEX for ranger), scaling class features (extra attack for fighters, improved divine smite & scaling spellslots for paladins, scaling sneak attack for rogue, scaling rage damage for Barbs, scaling spells for ranger). Monk has also scaled but is not keeping up, they have +2 damage per hit and only +1 attack per round.
From level 12 onwards monk gains only +1 damage per attack at level 17, their ki is already not a limiting factor at level 12 so they gain no additional damage potential from FoB, so essentially flat-line in terms of DPR from level 12-20 (though they do gain a nice defensive feature at level 14 with Diamond Soul). In contrast, Rogue sneak attack continues to scale, paladin smite slots continue to scale, fighters get more scaling of Action Surge, ranger offensive spells continue to scale (though their basic attacks don't which is why they are also considered a weak class but SS+XbowXpert puts this flat line significantly higher than the monk's flat line), rage damage and critical damage for Barbs continues to scale (though this is also pretty weak scaling which it why they almost all MC at this point),
TL;DR : Monks are great at levels 1-4 but their Monk scaling remains competitive only with feat-less rangers and barbarians but flags behind rogues, paladins, and fighters, and lags behind all other warrior types in feats are allowed, or if magic weapons are provided.
I agree the monk lags at higher levels, but GWM and SS no longer have the -5/+10 option so how does the monk fair against these classes without that boost? I assume Paladins, Fighters, and Rogues may still keep ahead. Even with Paladins only smiting once per turn.
Expertise is the term for getting 2x the PB on a skill role. If your not getting PB with initiative then it doesn’t really apply but you could have monks get 2x Dex bonus which would be a big help ( done this way a monk with the alert feat(2014 ver.) could have a +15 to initiative and a max initiate of 35 - crazy)
Having Ki empowered strikes work as my revised monk has it work would help some with the DPR problem but yes something more probably needs to be done. Perhaps something like adding an additional openhand strike or two to flurry at L13+ would help.
I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.
I mean... if you run the numbers this is simply not true. At level 1 (in 5e) Monk starts out as one of the most effective DPR classes in the game, and remains top tier DPR until level 5. At level 5 they start to slip to mid-tier DPR as characters with two-handed weapons gain more of a damage boost from Extra Attack than monk does with their fists and spending ki every turn to get a 4th attack vs PAMs 3 attacks is not yet possible.
By level 12 all other weapon-focused classes get a significant boost to DPR whether from feats (GWM+max STR for Barbs, SS+max DEX for ranger), scaling class features (extra attack for fighters, improved divine smite & scaling spellslots for paladins, scaling sneak attack for rogue, scaling rage damage for Barbs, scaling spells for ranger). Monk has also scaled but is not keeping up, they have +2 damage per hit and only +1 attack per round.
From level 12 onwards monk gains only +1 damage per attack at level 17, their ki is already not a limiting factor at level 12 so they gain no additional damage potential from FoB, so essentially flat-line in terms of DPR from level 12-20 (though they do gain a nice defensive feature at level 14 with Diamond Soul). In contrast, Rogue sneak attack continues to scale, paladin smite slots continue to scale, fighters get more scaling of Action Surge, ranger offensive spells continue to scale (though their basic attacks don't which is why they are also considered a weak class but SS+XbowXpert puts this flat line significantly higher than the monk's flat line), rage damage and critical damage for Barbs continues to scale (though this is also pretty weak scaling which it why they almost all MC at this point),
TL;DR : Monks are great at levels 1-4 but their Monk scaling remains competitive only with feat-less rangers and barbarians but flags behind rogues, paladins, and fighters, and lags behind all other warrior types in feats are allowed, or if magic weapons are provided.
I agree the monk lags at higher levels, but GWM and SS no longer have the -5/+10 option so how does the monk fair against these classes without that boost? I assume Paladins, Fighters, and Rogues may still keep ahead. Even with Paladins only smiting once per turn.
The new heavy weapon mastery is pretty dang close in effectiveness to the old one. It is not as good overall but they still do well just with that. With weapon masteries and all the one feats they are currently doing better than they were before.(as an aside charger likely needs a rewrite to state that your 10 feet of movement has to be at the person you hit..Otherwise you can use it almost every round by circling enemies.) But even with charge not every round they end up doing better in damage than 5e.
I agree the monk lags at higher levels, but GWM and SS no longer have the -5/+10 option so how does the monk fair against these classes without that boost? I assume Paladins, Fighters, and Rogues may still keep ahead. Even with Paladins only smiting once per turn.
GWM provides on average the same boost in damage as it did before, so any class that can use two-handed heavy weapons is exceeding monk DPR from level 5 onwards before we consider any class features simply with a Greatsword + GWM : Greatsword + GWM = 0.65*(2d6+STR)*2+0.88*3 = 17 DPR Monk = 0.65*(1d8+DEX)*3 = 16.5 DPR
If we add in the most basic class features: Greatsword + Great Weapon Fighting + GWM + Weapon Master (Graze) = 0.65*(2d6+STR+1.8)*2+0.35*(STR)*2+0.88*3 = 22.1 DPR Monk using Flurry of blows every round = 0.65*(1d8+DEX)*4 = 22.1 DPR
So any warrior class that can use heavy weapons is matching a monk using FoB every round without expending any resources at all from level 5 onwards. (Fighter, Barb, Paladin).
Rogue (level 5): 0.88*(4d6+DEX) = 15.84 DPR (ignoring chance of AoO) = higher resource-less damage than a monk, and this is going to keep increasing by 3 every 2 levels, whereas Monk DPR increases by 3 only twice between level 5 and level 20. Since Rogue now gets Sneak Attack on AoO, those rounds where they get it they that AoO their DPR is 27.5
Ranger / DEX-fighters are the only martials that have seen a significant nerf. So let's see if they how they stack up in One D&D: Hand crossbow + Crossbow Expert + Weapon Masters (Vex) + Archery Fighting Style = 0.9*(1d6+DEX)*3 = 20.25 DPR - so the monk has to use FoB every round in order to beat their resource-less damage.
TL:DR In One D&D every other martial class (except Rogue) handily does more DPR than a monk that isn't using Flurry of Blows from level 5, and Rogue beats them at level 7. Heavy weapons match FoB DPR without expending any resources at all at 5th level meaning any heavy-weapon user will be beating Monk DPR from then to level 20 pretty easily. In terms of damage, Monk should be considered an expert not a warrior however they have far less out of combat utility than an expert.
First level Rogue, for four proficiencies, two with expertise.
Second level go Monk, continue in Monk for six levels to get ki empowered strikes. Way of Shadow is probably the best option.
Continue as Rogue for the rest of the game.
Wielding dual shortswords because they're both monk weapons (they should be Monk weapons) for your Monk abilities, and "finesse" weapons for Sneak Attack. With the "nick" ability they can roll three attacks with their shortswords and then still have a free bonus action for their unarmed strike/flurry of blows/step of the wind/patient defense/cunning action. If you get Sneak Attack you're adding between 1d6 and 7d6 damage per turn.
And that there is the problem. Every class needs some aspect of the game where they excel. Defensive capabilities, offensive capabilities, utility in or out of combat... a monk currently has none of those unless you are playing in a parkour campaign. Everything they can do is done better by most classes.
The monk excel with its features. But the Discipline Points are very low. I repeat the spamming flurry of blows is not the way, but then we have that the Warrior of the Hand uses its subclass features with it, so poorly designed. While the Warrior of the Shadow can do so much now seeing within its own shadow and able to move it, or the Elemental monk uses 1 DP and last 10 minutes. Cannot expect from the Warrior of the Hand to spend 1 DP per round, and requiring a saving throw each hit slows down the pace too much IMO. If was not because that, the Open Hand Technique would be great when surrounded by foes, as is applied per hit, not once per round. But in direct combat one-to-one the Warrior of the Hand seems the weaker, which is not very nice.
Open Hand Technique needs something extra not requiring the use of DP, or it will be mostly an useless or very limited feature even more when you get it at level 3, that is when you need it more. Make it grant the use of flurry of blows for free a number of times (Wis or monk level proficiency bonus), like many other sub/classes have (i.e. the Ranger with Hunter's Mark).
They are reinforcing the hit-and-run combat style for the monk, instead adding others. Seems clear that the intention is hit and move 40' away so it cannot reach you. But in close places this cannot be done, being the Warrior of the Shadow the best as at least the foes are blinded, but not so great for other party members.
On open places, well the monk could have lower DPS, but it can even be untouched (but the Warrior of the Hand) in the full combat. So it could even be overpowered. Maybe needs some balance between open and close places.
The fact is that currently the monk seems very funny to play, as you have to learn and use correctly all its features. If they are not going to change much, at least I'd add the option the use Str instead Dex for all the monk stuff, including unarmored defense, which would be like parrying instead evading. So you could choose between an acrobatic/stealth or athletic/wrestler monk.
I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.
Or the highest 2 of the following 3 numbers - Dex bonus, Wis bonus, Proficiency bonus. Or as before, but add in 1/2 proficiency bonus to the Dex bonus + Wis bonus currently used. With the rider that the bonus is calculated using only Monk class levels.
...They are reinforcing the hit-and-run combat style for the monk, instead adding others. Seems clear that the intention is hit and move 40' away so it cannot reach you. But in close places this cannot be done, being the Warrior of the Shadow the best as at least the foes are blinded, but not so great for other party members...
hit and run is a fine intent but, i agree: what's the point of disengaging if an enemy can still close to melee next turn? or if the 'run' part turns into a marathon every round? hit and run monks lack Skirmisher from rogue scouts. that thing exactly.
...If they are not going to change much, at least I'd add the option the use Str instead Dex for all the monk stuff, including unarmored defense, which would be like parrying instead evading. So you could choose between an acrobatic/stealth or athletic/wrestler monk.
this seems incredibly obvious. what is the downside? also, they could have added STR mod to unarmored AC a long time ago. and why not? potentially someone using points buy could have 18 AC at level 1 but they'd sacrifice CON which seems fair. more importantly it would allow a strength monk to get 16AC (points buy: 16 STR, 10 DEX, 16 WIS) if they want.
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The monk excel with its features. But the Discipline Points are very low. I repeat the spamming flurry of blows is not the way, but then we have that the Warrior of the Hand uses its subclass features with it, so poorly designed. While the Warrior of the Shadow can do so much now seeing within its own shadow and able to move it, or the Elemental monk uses 1 DP and last 10 minutes. Cannot expect from the Warrior of the Hand to spend 1 DP per round, and requiring a saving throw each hit slows down the pace too much IMO. If was not because that, the Open Hand Technique would be great when surrounded by foes, as is applied per hit, not once per round. But in direct combat one-to-one the Warrior of the Hand seems the weaker, which is not very nice.
Open Hand Technique needs something extra not requiring the use of DP, or it will be mostly an useless or very limited feature even more when you get it at level 3, that is when you need it more. Make it grant the use of flurry of blows for free a number of times (Wis or monk level proficiency bonus), like many other sub/classes have (i.e. the Ranger with Hunter's Mark).
My personal fix for Open Hand Level 3 is "Whenever you successfully use your Unarmed Strike to Grapple or Shove, you may damage each to a roll of your Martial Arts dice." I am assuming the core Monk will get fixed to use DEX for Grapple/Shove DC. Thus Open Hand Monk becomes the subclass for Grappling and Tripping. No Points required.
The monk excel with its features. But the Discipline Points are very low. I repeat the spamming flurry of blows is not the way, but then we have that the Warrior of the Hand uses its subclass features with it, so poorly designed. While the Warrior of the Shadow can do so much now seeing within its own shadow and able to move it, or the Elemental monk uses 1 DP and last 10 minutes. Cannot expect from the Warrior of the Hand to spend 1 DP per round, and requiring a saving throw each hit slows down the pace too much IMO. If was not because that, the Open Hand Technique would be great when surrounded by foes, as is applied per hit, not once per round. But in direct combat one-to-one the Warrior of the Hand seems the weaker, which is not very nice.
Open Hand Technique needs something extra not requiring the use of DP, or it will be mostly an useless or very limited feature even more when you get it at level 3, that is when you need it more. Make it grant the use of flurry of blows for free a number of times (Wis or monk level proficiency bonus), like many other sub/classes have (i.e. the Ranger with Hunter's Mark).
My personal fix for Open Hand Level 3 is "Whenever you successfully use your Unarmed Strike to Grapple or Shove, you may damage each to a roll of your Martial Arts dice." I am assuming the core Monk will get fixed to use DEX for Grapple/Shove DC. Thus Open Hand Monk becomes the subclass for Grappling and Tripping. No Points required.
...They are reinforcing the hit-and-run combat style for the monk, instead adding others. Seems clear that the intention is hit and move 40' away so it cannot reach you. But in close places this cannot be done, being the Warrior of the Shadow the best as at least the foes are blinded, but not so great for other party members...
hit and run is a fine intent but, i agree: what's the point of disengaging if an enemy can still close to melee next turn? or if the 'run' part turns into a marathon every round? hit and run monks lack Skirmisher from rogue scouts. that thing exactly.
...If they are not going to change much, at least I'd add the option the use Str instead Dex for all the monk stuff, including unarmored defense, which would be like parrying instead evading. So you could choose between an acrobatic/stealth or athletic/wrestler monk.
this seems incredibly obvious. what is the downside? also, they could have added STR mod to unarmored AC a long time ago. and why not? potentially someone using points buy could have 18 AC at level 1 but they'd sacrifice CON which seems fair. more importantly it would allow a strength monk to get 16AC (points buy: 16 STR, 10 DEX, 16 WIS) if they want.
Because Barbarian + Tavern brawler is way better as a wrestler.
Great Weapon Master lets you add your proficiency bonus to the damage that one attack does on each of your turns. Sharpshooter lets you attack at long range without disadvantage and ignore full half and three-quarters cover. Are they really both so broken that taking one automatically makes you a "power-gamer"?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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It's not "we want classes to be balanced", it's "we want every class to allow power-gamers to break the game's balance so we can have higher numbers than Other Players".
If every class break's the game's balance then surely that would be a form of balance? 😝
The real issue is that in a power gaming group, even certain power builds for martials pale in comparison to what spellcasters can do just by picking certain spells; all pure martial classes need boosting to compete with the sheer power and versatility of spellcasting. If Great Weapon Master and such enable current classes to compete, then you should only nerf those feats after elevating the base class to no longer need to rely on it.
The idea is that every option, whether class or feat, should be similarly powerful; while balance in a game like D&D will never be perfect, everyone wants their character to feel useful. But in 5e there are just so many ways that spellcasters can simply out-compete or circumvent issues that are supposed to be a pure martial's niche.
It's wrong to keep focusing on comparisons between Fighter and Monks only; the issue shouldn't be how does the Monk stack up against one specific class in one specific area, it's about how does it stack up in overall usefulness compared to all other classes. Nobody expects a Monk to be better at support than a Bard or Cleric, but they should be able to contribute a similar amount to the group, otherwise that class is underperforming.
Unfortunately for all the positive changes in the OneD&D playtests, the balance is still very much in the favour of the spellcasters, especially since Wizards of the Coast seems to have given most of them incredibly strong new powers while the martials got mostly minor quality of life tweaks that haven't majorly changed anything.
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Well it is WIZARDS of the Coast. It's not like they care about non-casters.
A party of pure full casters, even single class casters, is quite viable, unless your DM regularly runs games in an anti-magic field. A party of pure martials will require great restraint on the DM's part. Because they generally can't afford to put points into mental stats, they're very vulnerable to enemy casters with disabling spells. They also tend to perform poorly in social situations (although a Swashbuckler Rogue can be a great party face).
What's the easiest way to wipe out a party including a Barbarian? Mentally dominate the Barbarian.
Monk, at least, has decent wisdom, and can't do enough damage to wipe out the party.
Great Weapon Master lets you add your proficiency bonus to the damage that one attack does on each of your turns. Sharpshooter lets you attack at long range without disadvantage and ignore full half and three-quarters cover. Are they really both so broken that taking one automatically makes you a "power-gamer"?
Power gamer has morphed into person who is passably familiar with the rules and does not make actively mechanically bad choices.
It's not "we want classes to be balanced", it's "we want every class to allow power-gamers to break the game's balance so we can have higher numbers than Other Players".
If every class break's the game's balance then surely that would be a form of balance? 😝
The real issue is that in a power gaming group, even certain power builds for martials pale in comparison to what spellcasters can do just by picking certain spells; all pure martial classes need boosting to compete with the sheer power and versatility of spellcasting. If Great Weapon Master and such enable current classes to compete, then you should only nerf those feats after elevating the base class to no longer need to rely on it.
The idea is that every option, whether class or feat, should be similarly powerful; while balance in a game like D&D will never be perfect, everyone wants their character to feel useful. But in 5e there are just so many ways that spellcasters can simply out-compete or circumvent issues that are supposed to be a pure martial's niche.
It's wrong to keep focusing on comparisons between Fighter and Monks only; the issue shouldn't be how does the Monk stack up against one specific class in one specific area, it's about how does it stack up in overall usefulness compared to all other classes. Nobody excepts a Monk to be better at support than a Bard or Cleric, but they should be able to contribute a similar amount to the group, otherwise that class is underperforming.
Unfortunately for all the positive changes in the OneD&D playtests, the balance is still very much in the favour of the spellcasters, especially since Wizards of the Coast seems to have given most of them incredibly strong new powers while the martials got mostly minor quality of life tweaks that haven't majorly changed anything.
People use fighter as its what is most comparable. It is harder to show the difference between punching for DPR vs a web spell. It is hard to say if casters are still unbalanced as the spell play test is not here yet. They may nerf spells enough to balance the classes. I kind of doubt it and if nerfed to the point how many want them nerfed from posts on here I am not sure the game would be much fun for casters. Which is why I always want more substantial buffs to martials. But hey who knows maybe they will make it so spells can't solve any problems out of some incredibly narrow range of what people think spells should be able to do, crowd control will be nerfed to some point where like in 4e maybe if you were lucky and the map and creatures positions aligned you might delay a melee attack for one round, and damage will be far below martials. What was the suggestion I saw not too long ago that 4d6 fireball would still be too powerful. Maybe that person will get their wish. In which case martials are looking great.
If not like I suspect, yeah the real balance issue will still be martials vs casters with the weaker martials really looking worse.
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About "expertise", I already proposed for the Monk the be a half-expertise, like the Ranger. The Ranger gets 3 skill proficiencies instead 2, and expertise in one skill at level 1 (Deft Explorer). If is not wanted that the Monk to be so full Warrior like others, at least grant it versatility.
Then grant the Monk with 3 skill proficiencies, unlock Thieves' Tools access, unlock Perception and Investigation as class skills, and grant expertise in 1 skill at level 1 and another at higher level.
For small parties or if you simply want to cover Rogue role without a Rogue with some efficiency this character could be nice.
I mean... if you run the numbers this is simply not true. At level 1 (in 5e) Monk starts out as one of the most effective DPR classes in the game, and remains top tier DPR until level 5. At level 5 they start to slip to mid-tier DPR as characters with two-handed weapons gain more of a damage boost from Extra Attack than monk does with their fists and spending ki every turn to get a 4th attack vs PAMs 3 attacks is not yet possible.
By level 12 all other weapon-focused classes get a significant boost to DPR whether from feats (GWM+max STR for Barbs, SS+max DEX for ranger), scaling class features (extra attack for fighters, improved divine smite & scaling spellslots for paladins, scaling sneak attack for rogue, scaling rage damage for Barbs, scaling spells for ranger). Monk has also scaled but is not keeping up, they have +2 damage per hit and only +1 attack per round.
From level 12 onwards monk gains only +1 damage per attack at level 17, their ki is already not a limiting factor at level 12 so they gain no additional damage potential from FoB, so essentially flat-line in terms of DPR from level 12-20 (though they do gain a nice defensive feature at level 14 with Diamond Soul). In contrast, Rogue sneak attack continues to scale, paladin smite slots continue to scale, fighters get more scaling of Action Surge, ranger offensive spells continue to scale (though their basic attacks don't which is why they are also considered a weak class but SS+XbowXpert puts this flat line significantly higher than the monk's flat line), rage damage and critical damage for Barbs continues to scale (though this is also pretty weak scaling which it why they almost all MC at this point),
TL;DR : Monks are great at levels 1-4 but their Monk scaling remains competitive only with feat-less rangers and barbarians but flags behind rogues, paladins, and fighters, and lags behind all other warrior types in feats are allowed, or if magic weapons are provided.
I agree the monk lags at higher levels, but GWM and SS no longer have the -5/+10 option so how does the monk fair against these classes without that boost? I assume Paladins, Fighters, and Rogues may still keep ahead. Even with Paladins only smiting once per turn.
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Expertise is the term for getting 2x the PB on a skill role. If your not getting PB with initiative then it doesn’t really apply but you could have monks get 2x Dex bonus which would be a big help ( done this way a monk with the alert feat(2014 ver.) could have a +15 to initiative and a max initiate of 35 - crazy)
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Having Ki empowered strikes work as my revised monk has it work would help some with the DPR problem but yes something more probably needs to be done. Perhaps something like adding an additional openhand strike or two to flurry at L13+ would help.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The new heavy weapon mastery is pretty dang close in effectiveness to the old one. It is not as good overall but they still do well just with that. With weapon masteries and all the one feats they are currently doing better than they were before.(as an aside charger likely needs a rewrite to state that your 10 feet of movement has to be at the person you hit..Otherwise you can use it almost every round by circling enemies.) But even with charge not every round they end up doing better in damage than 5e.
GWM provides on average the same boost in damage as it did before, so any class that can use two-handed heavy weapons is exceeding monk DPR from level 5 onwards before we consider any class features simply with a Greatsword + GWM :
Greatsword + GWM = 0.65*(2d6+STR)*2+0.88*3 = 17 DPR
Monk = 0.65*(1d8+DEX)*3 = 16.5 DPR
If we add in the most basic class features:
Greatsword + Great Weapon Fighting + GWM + Weapon Master (Graze) = 0.65*(2d6+STR+1.8)*2+0.35*(STR)*2+0.88*3 = 22.1 DPR
Monk using Flurry of blows every round = 0.65*(1d8+DEX)*4 = 22.1 DPR
So any warrior class that can use heavy weapons is matching a monk using FoB every round without expending any resources at all from level 5 onwards. (Fighter, Barb, Paladin).
Rogue (level 5): 0.88*(4d6+DEX) = 15.84 DPR (ignoring chance of AoO) = higher resource-less damage than a monk, and this is going to keep increasing by 3 every 2 levels, whereas Monk DPR increases by 3 only twice between level 5 and level 20. Since Rogue now gets Sneak Attack on AoO, those rounds where they get it they that AoO their DPR is 27.5
Ranger / DEX-fighters are the only martials that have seen a significant nerf. So let's see if they how they stack up in One D&D:
Hand crossbow + Crossbow Expert + Weapon Masters (Vex) + Archery Fighting Style = 0.9*(1d6+DEX)*3 = 20.25 DPR - so the monk has to use FoB every round in order to beat their resource-less damage.
TL:DR In One D&D every other martial class (except Rogue) handily does more DPR than a monk that isn't using Flurry of Blows from level 5, and Rogue beats them at level 7. Heavy weapons match FoB DPR without expending any resources at all at 5th level meaning any heavy-weapon user will be beating Monk DPR from then to level 20 pretty easily. In terms of damage, Monk should be considered an expert not a warrior however they have far less out of combat utility than an expert.
How would a Monk/Rogue multiclass work?
First level Rogue, for four proficiencies, two with expertise.
Second level go Monk, continue in Monk for six levels to get ki empowered strikes. Way of Shadow is probably the best option.
Continue as Rogue for the rest of the game.
Wielding dual shortswords because they're both monk weapons (they should be Monk weapons) for your Monk abilities, and "finesse" weapons for Sneak Attack. With the "nick" ability they can roll three attacks with their shortswords and then still have a free bonus action for their unarmed strike/flurry of blows/step of the wind/patient defense/cunning action. If you get Sneak Attack you're adding between 1d6 and 7d6 damage per turn.
And that there is the problem. Every class needs some aspect of the game where they excel. Defensive capabilities, offensive capabilities, utility in or out of combat... a monk currently has none of those unless you are playing in a parkour campaign. Everything they can do is done better by most classes.
The monk excel with its features. But the Discipline Points are very low. I repeat the spamming flurry of blows is not the way, but then we have that the Warrior of the Hand uses its subclass features with it, so poorly designed. While the Warrior of the Shadow can do so much now seeing within its own shadow and able to move it, or the Elemental monk uses 1 DP and last 10 minutes. Cannot expect from the Warrior of the Hand to spend 1 DP per round, and requiring a saving throw each hit slows down the pace too much IMO. If was not because that, the Open Hand Technique would be great when surrounded by foes, as is applied per hit, not once per round. But in direct combat one-to-one the Warrior of the Hand seems the weaker, which is not very nice.
Open Hand Technique needs something extra not requiring the use of DP, or it will be mostly an useless or very limited feature even more when you get it at level 3, that is when you need it more. Make it grant the use of flurry of blows for free a number of times (Wis or monk level proficiency bonus), like many other sub/classes have (i.e. the Ranger with Hunter's Mark).
They are reinforcing the hit-and-run combat style for the monk, instead adding others. Seems clear that the intention is hit and move 40' away so it cannot reach you. But in close places this cannot be done, being the Warrior of the Shadow the best as at least the foes are blinded, but not so great for other party members.
On open places, well the monk could have lower DPS, but it can even be untouched (but the Warrior of the Hand) in the full combat. So it could even be overpowered. Maybe needs some balance between open and close places.
The fact is that currently the monk seems very funny to play, as you have to learn and use correctly all its features. If they are not going to change much, at least I'd add the option the use Str instead Dex for all the monk stuff, including unarmored defense, which would be like parrying instead evading. So you could choose between an acrobatic/stealth or athletic/wrestler monk.
Or the highest 2 of the following 3 numbers - Dex bonus, Wis bonus, Proficiency bonus. Or as before, but add in 1/2 proficiency bonus to the Dex bonus + Wis bonus currently used. With the rider that the bonus is calculated using only Monk class levels.
hit and run is a fine intent but, i agree: what's the point of disengaging if an enemy can still close to melee next turn? or if the 'run' part turns into a marathon every round? hit and run monks lack Skirmisher from rogue scouts. that thing exactly.
this seems incredibly obvious. what is the downside? also, they could have added STR mod to unarmored AC a long time ago. and why not? potentially someone using points buy could have 18 AC at level 1 but they'd sacrifice CON which seems fair. more importantly it would allow a strength monk to get 16AC (points buy: 16 STR, 10 DEX, 16 WIS) if they want.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
My personal fix for Open Hand Level 3 is "Whenever you successfully use your Unarmed Strike to Grapple or Shove, you may damage each to a roll of your Martial Arts dice." I am assuming the core Monk will get fixed to use DEX for Grapple/Shove DC. Thus Open Hand Monk becomes the subclass for Grappling and Tripping. No Points required.
So you're fix for Open Hand is to nerf it?
Because Barbarian + Tavern brawler is way better as a wrestler.
Great Weapon Master lets you add your proficiency bonus to the damage that one attack does on each of your turns. Sharpshooter lets you attack at long range without disadvantage and ignore full half and three-quarters cover. Are they really both so broken that taking one automatically makes you a "power-gamer"?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
If every class break's the game's balance then surely that would be a form of balance? 😝
The real issue is that in a power gaming group, even certain power builds for martials pale in comparison to what spellcasters can do just by picking certain spells; all pure martial classes need boosting to compete with the sheer power and versatility of spellcasting. If Great Weapon Master and such enable current classes to compete, then you should only nerf those feats after elevating the base class to no longer need to rely on it.
The idea is that every option, whether class or feat, should be similarly powerful; while balance in a game like D&D will never be perfect, everyone wants their character to feel useful. But in 5e there are just so many ways that spellcasters can simply out-compete or circumvent issues that are supposed to be a pure martial's niche.
It's wrong to keep focusing on comparisons between Fighter and Monks only; the issue shouldn't be how does the Monk stack up against one specific class in one specific area, it's about how does it stack up in overall usefulness compared to all other classes. Nobody expects a Monk to be better at support than a Bard or Cleric, but they should be able to contribute a similar amount to the group, otherwise that class is underperforming.
Unfortunately for all the positive changes in the OneD&D playtests, the balance is still very much in the favour of the spellcasters, especially since Wizards of the Coast seems to have given most of them incredibly strong new powers while the martials got mostly minor quality of life tweaks that haven't majorly changed anything.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Well it is WIZARDS of the Coast. It's not like they care about non-casters.
A party of pure full casters, even single class casters, is quite viable, unless your DM regularly runs games in an anti-magic field. A party of pure martials will require great restraint on the DM's part. Because they generally can't afford to put points into mental stats, they're very vulnerable to enemy casters with disabling spells. They also tend to perform poorly in social situations (although a Swashbuckler Rogue can be a great party face).
What's the easiest way to wipe out a party including a Barbarian? Mentally dominate the Barbarian.
Monk, at least, has decent wisdom, and can't do enough damage to wipe out the party.
Power gamer has morphed into person who is passably familiar with the rules and does not make actively mechanically bad choices.
People use fighter as its what is most comparable. It is harder to show the difference between punching for DPR vs a web spell. It is hard to say if casters are still unbalanced as the spell play test is not here yet. They may nerf spells enough to balance the classes. I kind of doubt it and if nerfed to the point how many want them nerfed from posts on here I am not sure the game would be much fun for casters. Which is why I always want more substantial buffs to martials. But hey who knows maybe they will make it so spells can't solve any problems out of some incredibly narrow range of what people think spells should be able to do, crowd control will be nerfed to some point where like in 4e maybe if you were lucky and the map and creatures positions aligned you might delay a melee attack for one round, and damage will be far below martials. What was the suggestion I saw not too long ago that 4d6 fireball would still be too powerful. Maybe that person will get their wish. In which case martials are looking great.
If not like I suspect, yeah the real balance issue will still be martials vs casters with the weaker martials really looking worse.