Someone in one of these threads had suggested and reworded the fighting styles to help benefit monk. Not sure who or where but Defense was something like “if you are wearing armor or have the Unarmored Defense feature” you gain the AC bonus.
I definitely think monks should have access to fighting styles. They are part of the Warrior group now so I think it would be fitting. Not all will be top picks for monks but just to have some options is nice.
I mean.. just make it +1 AC at that point, don't bother with any restrictions. But I'd bet you'd hardly notice the difference between AC 16 and AC 17. losing immunity to poison damage is going to hurt way more than gaining a +1 AC. But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
Because they want the style of being unarmed combatants? I mean, there's some argument for just introducing a fighting style for unarmed combat that isn't a trap option, and then a lot of your brawler concepts will turn into fighters or barbarians.
But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
Because they want the style of being unarmed combatants? I mean, there's some argument for just introducing a fighting style for unarmed combat that isn't a trap option, and then a lot of your brawler concepts will turn into fighters or barbarians.
Then just argue for the Unarmed Fighting Style to be buffed, or for Tavern Brawler to be buffed. A straight fighter with both of those is simply superior as a brawler than a Monk. A monk is not the only way to play an unarmed fighter, and it certainly is not the best way to play a wrestler / brawler.
Someone in one of these threads had suggested and reworded the fighting styles to help benefit monk. Not sure who or where but Defense was something like “if you are wearing armor or have the Unarmored Defense feature” you gain the AC bonus.
I definitely think monks should have access to fighting styles. They are part of the Warrior group now so I think it would be fitting. Not all will be top picks for monks but just to have some options is nice.
I mean.. just make it +1 AC at that point, don't bother with any restrictions. But I'd bet you'd hardly notice the difference between AC 16 and AC 17. losing immunity to poison damage is going to hurt way more than gaining a +1 AC. But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
I guess the same would be said about sorcerer as wizard with just a coat of paint. Or with this UA why play either when you can play a bard with access to every spell in the game (at level 10).
Someone in one of these threads had suggested and reworded the fighting styles to help benefit monk. Not sure who or where but Defense was something like “if you are wearing armor or have the Unarmored Defense feature” you gain the AC bonus.
Someone in one of these threads had suggested and reworded the fighting styles to help benefit monk. Not sure who or where but Defense was something like “if you are wearing armor or have the Unarmored Defense feature” you gain the AC bonus.
I definitely think monks should have access to fighting styles. They are part of the Warrior group now so I think it would be fitting. Not all will be top picks for monks but just to have some options is nice.
I mean.. just make it +1 AC at that point, don't bother with any restrictions. But I'd bet you'd hardly notice the difference between AC 16 and AC 17. losing immunity to poison damage is going to hurt way more than gaining a +1 AC. But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
You could... but that sort of loses the warrior/fighter theme in a way. It would benefit Mage Armor, etc. It also has a potential to have unintended interactions with things like Tortle AC, for example. Maybe WOTC would be ok with that, but if they are why didn't they make it a blanket +1 AC in the first place? Instead, they made this, and at least one version of Warforged AC, be dependent upon some other thing. So my idea was to make the change with just enough scope to benefit Monks (though, it also benefits Barbarians, which I think is also a good idea), but not just defy that WOTC chose to NOT make it a blanket +1 to AC.
I’ve brought this up in another thread but why is the monk even restricted to DP points in the first place? Most of the monk’s feature are tied to bonus actions or reactions anyway, which means you can only do them once per turn, why limit them more by making a pool of points? The three many ones, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind all take your bonus action so you can only use one per turn. Stunning Strike is now once per turn. Select missile is a reaction, once again once per turn. Most of the subclass features are spells, which requires a magic action, which is yet again once per turn. Obviously, my point is that if the rouge can get by without DP points and all the other classes don’t can do it, why can’t the monk? Also, the biggest problem with the monk is that these features define the monk and what it is, if it runs out of points and can’t use its features then what is it but a classless PC. It’s the same thing as let’s say a beast master ranger and the beast dies. Now, what is it? All its features are tied to the beast and you can’t use it. I’m just saying that a class should always have access to their core features and the DP points have always been stupid.
I’m sure at least parts of this have been gone over in the previous 16 pages ( which I’m not going to scroll through) so please bear with me. The UA6 monk isn’t Really bad but it’s not all it could be either. The changing of the martial arts die to a D6 is a significant improvement as is giving them simple weapons ( w/staff) instead of monk weapons (w/o staff). The extra unarmed attack and unarmed defense are unchanged but solid pieces. I would consider changing it to grant the bare hand fighting style at level 1 with the martial arts granting the extra unarmed attack. Adding the weapon mastery is another significant improvement. At level 2 I prefer to keep it as Ki points for the flavor if nothing else but low level is where you most need and least have the points so I would suggest it be wisdom bonus + monk level points not just monk level. Flurry, patient defense and Step of the Wind all remain the same and are fine, as is the unarmored movement. Level 3 - subclass features and deflect missiles are standard but I would add a class feature as well - Ki powered strikes - “your unarmed attacks now bypass a creatures resistance to nonmagical weapons. At this point no bonuses to hit or for damage but the ability to do full damage with the unarmed attacks (and flurry). At level 3 full casters are getting access to the magic weapon spell, artificers are getting their enhance weapon infusions, and magic weapons (+1) are starting to appear so allowing monks to bypass this resistance is not overpowering. Level 4: the feat/asi is standard but this is also a good place to continue adding in the slow fall ability. Level 5 - extra attack and stunning strike are both good here. Level 6 - subclass feature(s) obviously but also improving Ki powered strikes so they get +1 to hit and damage with their unarmed strikes. Level 7 - the UA6 Self Restoration is a solid ability but I would add Evasion as well since they should be dodging stuff by this point. Level 8 - feat/ASI Level 9 - acrobatic movement is good here but I was not that impressed with heightened metabolism but if folks wanted to add it here I wouldn’t object. Level 10 - the UA6 self restoration or purity of body or some other name - I get their explanation of why the 2014 purity of body needs to be changed because of disease but I’m not really happy with self restoration either. Maybe an ability that makes the monk immune to the poisoned condition (and resistant to poison damage) and gives them advantage on saves vs charm and fright effects? Level 11 - Subclass feature(s) Level 12 - Feat/ASI Level 13 - Deflect Ranged (except force) from the UA (slightly renamed) AND Ki powered strikes - open hand/bare hand/unarmed ( how ever you want to phraise it) attacks get +2 to the attack and the damage. By this time +2 weapons are starting to be common and artificers are using +2 enhanced weapons regularly so monks should be getting this by here also. Level 14 - by whatever name monks get proficiency with all saves here. Level 15 - the ability to feel and affect the Ki of others enough to communicate ( not quite telepathy but more than empathy/empathic projection), and the regaining of 4 Ki points on initiative if you are out of Ki ( maybe even if you have less than 4 Ki - this would mean getting a max of 7 Ki assuming you had 3 going into the initiative- not excessive for a high level fight). Level 16 - Feat/ASI and no magical aging etc. Level 17 - Subclass ability Level 18 - the UA6 ability to spend 3 Ki to resist all damage types except force and the final Ki powered strikes granting a +3 to hit and damage to open hand attacks (by this time +3 weapons are appearing and this keeps the monks bare hand attacks on par with weapon attacks. Level 19 - Feat/ASI Level 20 - the UA6 capstone Defy Death is one of the few major capstones and should stay.
There is how I would redo the monk so it keeps it flavor as a (generally) Dex based unarmored striker using mostly bare hands and simple weapons. I don’t have a problem with 1+ subclasses granting martial weapons, armor etc proficiencies to represent somewhat different traditions but the base monk should (IMNSHO) be focused on the bare hand fighting, calmness of spirit and self awareness to resist strong emotions and external controlling attempts and I think this does it. One additional note - I would use the martial arts die progression from UA6.
im sure some folks have comments so feel free to dissect.
As I continue to ponder the monk conundrum, I am continually looking at adding Fighter-like abilities in to get them to where I think they should. Fighting Style, something akin to action Surge, to recover some ki in combat, a health recovery ability, or damage reduction. Feels kinda bad, but maybe they will make a grand change after this set of playtest.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Maybe at Level 10 add “expertise” with initiative?
I don’t know if expertise would be good, leave that to the expert classes. Thats their thing. Advantage would be sufficient or add their WIS mod to it in addition to DEX. Monks are the quick, mobile Warriors.
Maybe at Level 10 add “expertise” with initiative?
I don’t know if expertise would be good, leave that to the expert classes. Thats their thing. Advantage would be sufficient or add their WIS mod to it in addition to DEX. Monks are the quick, mobile Warriors.
That would fit, they quickly analyze the situation type thing. Get as much as possible from their MAD dependency.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Expertise doubles the proficiency bonus applied to the roll, advantage effectively adds a flat +4 or +5 to the roll. That is the equivalent of a level 4 monk expertise - by L17 the expertise is adding +12 to the initiative almost guaranteeing that the monk goes first that’s why you use xpertise not advantage.
If you don’t like expertise just call it double proficiency with initiative, if you really don’t want to use proficiency then call it double Dex bonus as their reactions are so honed- that still gives them a probable +10 to initiative by level 10 again pretty well making them go first.
UA1 alert feat does a great job at initiative management and it's available via background if your monk is particularly aware.
how about instead add a 1 DP ability that lasts a minute which gives benefit over all enemies who are after you in initiative order? ...but what benefit: free reactions vs later enemies? disadvantage to later enemy opportunity attacks? flat AC boost? flat damage? something else?
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As a general rule your proficiency bonus does not add to your initiative unless i misses a change in the UA, so getting any proficiency bonus would be something, expertise would be crazy. Now i have been advocating for adding your prof bonus to init for a while as I think a character with 20 levels of experience should react faster than a level 1 character even without needing to pump dex, but i don't think it has happened yet.
A bit of an aside but they went away from prof bonus tied abilities in general due to multi classing concerns, its kind of weird expertise stays.
Expertise doubles the proficiency bonus applied to the roll, advantage effectively adds a flat +4 or +5 to the roll. That is the equivalent of a level 4 monk expertise - by L17 the expertise is adding +12 to the initiative almost guaranteeing that the monk goes first that’s why you use xpertise not advantage.
Expertise is an Expert class feature. Monk is a Warrior so I feel Advantage works just fine. Let each group have their thing that sets them apart. Which is why I feel Weapon Mastery should be a Warrior thing. Channel Divinity/Nature was the Priest thing, but Druids dropped it in this UA. Don’t recall if the Mages had their common feature.
If you prefer expertise, that’s fine. I prefer advantage. Edit: or add WIS
Expertise doubles the proficiency bonus applied to the roll, advantage effectively adds a flat +4 or +5 to the roll. That is the equivalent of a level 4 monk expertise - by L17 the expertise is adding +12 to the initiative almost guaranteeing that the monk goes first that’s why you use xpertise not advantage.
Expertise is an Expert class feature. Monk is a Warrior so I feel Advantage works just fine. Let each group have their thing that sets them apart. Which is why I feel Weapon Mastery should be a Warrior thing. Channel Divinity/Nature was the Priest thing, but Druids dropped it in this UA. Don’t recall if the Mages had their common feature.
While I'm not sure what my preferred option is personally, I wouldn't say expertise in Initiative would be stepping on the Expert classes' toes; expertise on its own is just a feature, what sets the Expert classes apart is specifically getting four skill/tool expertises, there's no reason they should have exclusive rights to Initiative expertise.
Also it's not like there isn't crossover between the groups already; Paladin and Ranger both have Weapon Mastery despite that being the Warrior group's thing. If they wanted to pivot Monk a bit towards being a Warrior/Expert mix I'd be fine with that personally, as it would fit their being somewhat of an all-rounder; I could see them getting a bonus skill proficiency, a skill expertise and later Initiative expertise (compared to a full Expert's four expertise).
That said, I might lean more towards "spend Discipline to gain advantage on a check" as a feature; this gives more out of combat utility, but is still usable with Initiative. However, because it costs a resource and is preemptive (rather than a reactive re-roll) you have to be careful how often you use it or you could end up burning through Discipline before a fight, especially since (in my experience at least) when you roll with advantage the second roll is the worse one like 90% of the time. 😉
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I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.
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I mean.. just make it +1 AC at that point, don't bother with any restrictions. But I'd bet you'd hardly notice the difference between AC 16 and AC 17. losing immunity to poison damage is going to hurt way more than gaining a +1 AC. But really guys, why do you even want to play a monk if they are just a Fighter with a coat of paint on them?
Because they want the style of being unarmed combatants? I mean, there's some argument for just introducing a fighting style for unarmed combat that isn't a trap option, and then a lot of your brawler concepts will turn into fighters or barbarians.
Then just argue for the Unarmed Fighting Style to be buffed, or for Tavern Brawler to be buffed. A straight fighter with both of those is simply superior as a brawler than a Monk. A monk is not the only way to play an unarmed fighter, and it certainly is not the best way to play a wrestler / brawler.
I guess the same would be said about sorcerer as wizard with just a coat of paint. Or with this UA why play either when you can play a bard with access to every spell in the game (at level 10).
The monk isn’t just a Dex fighter that punches.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Me
You could... but that sort of loses the warrior/fighter theme in a way. It would benefit Mage Armor, etc. It also has a potential to have unintended interactions with things like Tortle AC, for example. Maybe WOTC would be ok with that, but if they are why didn't they make it a blanket +1 AC in the first place? Instead, they made this, and at least one version of Warforged AC, be dependent upon some other thing. So my idea was to make the change with just enough scope to benefit Monks (though, it also benefits Barbarians, which I think is also a good idea), but not just defy that WOTC chose to NOT make it a blanket +1 to AC.
I’ve brought this up in another thread but why is the monk even restricted to DP points in the first place? Most of the monk’s feature are tied to bonus actions or reactions anyway, which means you can only do them once per turn, why limit them more by making a pool of points? The three many ones, Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind all take your bonus action so you can only use one per turn. Stunning Strike is now once per turn. Select missile is a reaction, once again once per turn. Most of the subclass features are spells, which requires a magic action, which is yet again once per turn.
Obviously, my point is that if the rouge can get by without DP points and all the other classes don’t can do it, why can’t the monk? Also, the biggest problem with the monk is that these features define the monk and what it is, if it runs out of points and can’t use its features then what is it but a classless PC. It’s the same thing as let’s say a beast master ranger and the beast dies. Now, what is it? All its features are tied to the beast and you can’t use it. I’m just saying that a class should always have access to their core features and the DP points have always been stupid.
Vote, get rid of DPs. These has been my thoughts.
I’m sure at least parts of this have been gone over in the previous 16 pages ( which I’m not going to scroll through) so please bear with me. The UA6 monk isn’t Really bad but it’s not all it could be either. The changing of the martial arts die to a D6 is a significant improvement as is giving them simple weapons ( w/staff) instead of monk weapons (w/o staff). The extra unarmed attack and unarmed defense are unchanged but solid pieces. I would consider changing it to grant the bare hand fighting style at level 1 with the martial arts granting the extra unarmed attack. Adding the weapon mastery is another significant improvement.
At level 2 I prefer to keep it as Ki points for the flavor if nothing else but low level is where you most need and least have the points so I would suggest it be wisdom bonus + monk level points not just monk level. Flurry, patient defense and Step of the Wind all remain the same and are fine, as is the unarmored movement.
Level 3 - subclass features and deflect missiles are standard but I would add a class feature as well - Ki powered strikes - “your unarmed attacks now bypass a creatures resistance to nonmagical weapons. At this point no bonuses to hit or for damage but the ability to do full damage with the unarmed attacks (and flurry). At level 3 full casters are getting access to the magic weapon spell, artificers are getting their enhance weapon infusions, and magic weapons (+1) are starting to appear so allowing monks to bypass this resistance is not overpowering.
Level 4: the feat/asi is standard but this is also a good place to continue adding in the slow fall ability.
Level 5 - extra attack and stunning strike are both good here.
Level 6 - subclass feature(s) obviously but also improving Ki powered strikes so they get +1 to hit and damage with their unarmed strikes.
Level 7 - the UA6 Self Restoration is a solid ability but I would add Evasion as well since they should be dodging stuff by this point.
Level 8 - feat/ASI
Level 9 - acrobatic movement is good here but I was not that impressed with heightened metabolism but if folks wanted to add it here I wouldn’t object.
Level 10 - the UA6 self restoration or purity of body or some other name - I get their explanation of why the 2014 purity of body needs to be changed because of disease but I’m not really happy with self restoration either. Maybe an ability that makes the monk immune to the poisoned condition (and resistant to poison damage) and gives them advantage on saves vs charm and fright effects?
Level 11 - Subclass feature(s)
Level 12 - Feat/ASI
Level 13 - Deflect Ranged (except force) from the UA (slightly renamed) AND Ki powered strikes - open hand/bare hand/unarmed ( how ever you want to phraise it) attacks get +2 to the attack and the damage. By this time +2 weapons are starting to be common and artificers are using +2 enhanced weapons regularly so monks should be getting this by here also.
Level 14 - by whatever name monks get proficiency with all saves here.
Level 15 - the ability to feel and affect the Ki of others enough to communicate ( not quite telepathy but more than empathy/empathic projection), and the regaining of 4 Ki points on initiative if you are out of Ki ( maybe even if you have less than 4 Ki - this would mean getting a max of 7 Ki assuming you had 3 going into the initiative- not excessive for a high level fight).
Level 16 - Feat/ASI and no magical aging etc.
Level 17 - Subclass ability
Level 18 - the UA6 ability to spend 3 Ki to resist all damage types except force and the final Ki powered strikes granting a +3 to hit and damage to open hand attacks (by this time +3 weapons are appearing and this keeps the monks bare hand attacks on par with weapon attacks.
Level 19 - Feat/ASI
Level 20 - the UA6 capstone Defy Death is one of the few major capstones and should stay.
There is how I would redo the monk so it keeps it flavor as a (generally) Dex based unarmored striker using mostly bare hands and simple weapons. I don’t have a problem with 1+ subclasses granting martial weapons, armor etc proficiencies to represent somewhat different traditions but the base monk should (IMNSHO) be focused on the bare hand fighting, calmness of spirit and self awareness to resist strong emotions and external controlling attempts and I think this does it. One additional note - I would use the martial arts die progression from UA6.
im sure some folks have comments so feel free to dissect.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As I continue to ponder the monk conundrum, I am continually looking at adding Fighter-like abilities in to get them to where I think they should. Fighting Style, something akin to action Surge, to recover some ki in combat, a health recovery ability, or damage reduction. Feels kinda bad, but maybe they will make a grand change after this set of playtest.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I would also think an ability to grant advantage on initiative at some point, would be thematic.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Maybe at Level 10 add “expertise” with initiative?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I don’t know if expertise would be good, leave that to the expert classes. Thats their thing. Advantage would be sufficient or add their WIS mod to it in addition to DEX. Monks are the quick, mobile Warriors.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That would fit, they quickly analyze the situation type thing. Get as much as possible from their MAD dependency.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Expertise doubles the proficiency bonus applied to the roll, advantage effectively adds a flat +4 or +5 to the roll. That is the equivalent of a level 4 monk expertise - by L17 the expertise is adding +12 to the initiative almost guaranteeing that the monk goes first that’s why you use xpertise not advantage.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If you don’t like expertise just call it double proficiency with initiative, if you really don’t want to use proficiency then call it double Dex bonus as their reactions are so honed- that still gives them a probable +10 to initiative by level 10 again pretty well making them go first.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
UA1 alert feat does a great job at initiative management and it's available via background if your monk is particularly aware.
how about instead add a 1 DP ability that lasts a minute which gives benefit over all enemies who are after you in initiative order? ...but what benefit: free reactions vs later enemies? disadvantage to later enemy opportunity attacks? flat AC boost? flat damage? something else?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
As a general rule your proficiency bonus does not add to your initiative unless i misses a change in the UA, so getting any proficiency bonus would be something, expertise would be crazy. Now i have been advocating for adding your prof bonus to init for a while as I think a character with 20 levels of experience should react faster than a level 1 character even without needing to pump dex, but i don't think it has happened yet.
A bit of an aside but they went away from prof bonus tied abilities in general due to multi classing concerns, its kind of weird expertise stays.
Expertise is an Expert class feature. Monk is a Warrior so I feel Advantage works just fine. Let each group have their thing that sets them apart. Which is why I feel Weapon Mastery should be a Warrior thing. Channel Divinity/Nature was the Priest thing, but Druids dropped it in this UA. Don’t recall if the Mages had their common feature.
If you prefer expertise, that’s fine. I prefer advantage. Edit: or add WIS
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
While I'm not sure what my preferred option is personally, I wouldn't say expertise in Initiative would be stepping on the Expert classes' toes; expertise on its own is just a feature, what sets the Expert classes apart is specifically getting four skill/tool expertises, there's no reason they should have exclusive rights to Initiative expertise.
Also it's not like there isn't crossover between the groups already; Paladin and Ranger both have Weapon Mastery despite that being the Warrior group's thing. If they wanted to pivot Monk a bit towards being a Warrior/Expert mix I'd be fine with that personally, as it would fit their being somewhat of an all-rounder; I could see them getting a bonus skill proficiency, a skill expertise and later Initiative expertise (compared to a full Expert's four expertise).
That said, I might lean more towards "spend Discipline to gain advantage on a check" as a feature; this gives more out of combat utility, but is still usable with Initiative. However, because it costs a resource and is preemptive (rather than a reactive re-roll) you have to be careful how often you use it or you could end up burning through Discipline before a fight, especially since (in my experience at least) when you roll with advantage the second roll is the worse one like 90% of the time. 😉
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I'm really not sure that focusing on high level is the right place to go. Monks actually have pretty good level scaling, it's just the base is kinda low.
I'd probably consider just getting rid of the MAD-ness. Your unarmored AC is 13 + Dex Modifier + Level/6 or something.