There are no tactics since grapple/shove still is a Str check even if you are a monk. Also staying at range with monk erases their bonus action attack, Flurry of blows, and stunning strike abilities, so being a thrown weapon run around monk is pointless especially when you could just get light crossbow proficiency deal more damage with less effort.
according to the recent movie, shoving enemies prone and throwing them into each other is a big part of dnd combat. more of that kinda "tactical grappling" for the monk, please.
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The current progression of Discipline Points and Powers is similar to Spell Slots and Spells when I sense they should represent the monk's choices each turn. For example, Discipline Points could grow slower per level but are available each turn to the Monk, empowering their attacks and moves they can make within a turn. There may be a monk ability where they can "save" some discipline points in one round to use on a more complex set of attacks or maneuvers in a future round.
I actually think the monk was intended to be able to use Dex to grapple and shove, and I expect this would be so in the next iteration. This is my reasoning: in UA 2 (expert classes), grapple and shove are made with the attack roll of the unarmed strike. If it had remained this way, the dexterous attack feature would apply to them. Moreover, the grappler feat from the same UA have a prequisite of Str or Dex, which wouldn't make much sense if there was no intention of allowing Dex grapples.
Sure, the current version of dexterous attack only mentions attack and damage rolls, but I think RAI would also include save DC.
Probably we can count on it. Nonsense if any other full-plated character like i.e. Paladin is better in unarmed combat than the monk. Didn’t noticed the change in this UA 6.
Once fixed, it grants many options with that extra 1-2 bonus attacks from MA/Flurry of Blows to MA users.
Light Crossbow has Loading so cannot be used with multi-attack. Thrown weapons are nice for unarmed and not wearing shield as can improvise. Even if using a quarterstaff, with the Attack action you can stow 1 weapon, then use that you can draw each thrown weapon as part of the Attack action, to throw all the dart/s plus the extra free dagger (Nick). If you use the Attack action to draw the Light Crossbow (even when you have single attack), at the end you have it in your hands, while thrown weapons left your hands free. So in any case see more convenient the thrown weapons to improvise and use them or not depending how much movement do you have remaining and the situation.
Probably we can count on it. Nonsense if any other full-plated character like i.e. Paladin is better in unarmed combat than the monk. Didn’t noticed the change in this UA 6.
Once fixed, it grants many options with that extra 1-2 bonus attacks from MA/Flurry of Blows to MA users.
A fighter with unarmed fighting style in current 5e has less DPR than a monk, but much better HP and AC at early levels. So I place them as equals in unarmed combat because of that. Also the extra options you speak of aren’t that extra since others can do them equally as well. At level 5 depending on the build and earlier depending on the subclass. Any 5th level Martial with 2 weapons can shove someone prone and take an attack with their weapon and a bonus action attack with their second weapon. If they are a warrior with the fighting style they still get to add there attack mod to damage of second weapon. A monk could do it slightly better with flurry of blows gaining an additional attack at the cost of a resource, but a battle master fighter can expend a resource deal normal damage and additional damage on the same attack as the shove. Cunning strike rogue also has that benefit. Open hand monk can do it as well. Which makes me look at the option as inferior to those designed to do it. Inferior doesn’t mean bad, but you would be better served by playing the subclasses designed for it.
With all my "ranting" about UA unarmed strikes changes I had overlooked (I knew it was there but had forgotten about it while typing) that you can use the shove/grapple at the expense of doing damage. Monks have more attacks that they can use so that it could be beneficial depending on the situation. But in various threads since the idea of 1DD was first announced I have thought, and thought prior to this as well, that Open Hand monks Open Hand Technique (OHT) should be a base monk feature. And I still do, though I'm not counting on it.
I guess what I will say now though is that OHT, if a base monk feature, should stay as it is in the 2014 PHB. And Open Hand monks should build on this with some additional features. Earlier, or in another thread, I suggested that not only should the Reaction removal of OHT not require a save (per 2014 PHB) but the other two options (Shove/Prone and Push 15') should also not require a save, for Open Hand Monks. Maybe that's too strong, but as a subclass feature, compared to what some others have received in the UA's, I don't think so. And additional options could be added. Or another feature replace OHT for Open Hand monks.
I'm not a designer. I'm not an optimizer (I consider myself a casual optimizer, so I know enough to put my best stats in primary ability scores, etc.). And I don't do the math so much. So maybe I'm way off, or just misguided.
@Ain_Undos notice that it requires to use the fighting style so is forcing you a choice, while the monk has it for free for its unarmed combat, being the MA damage die greater than those Light weapons soon. Also you can add to the monk one extra attack for free with a dagger in the off-hand using Nick, but only with d4 not adding the Dex modifier (but better than nothing). Being able to add a fighting style (like dual-wielder of thrown weapons) could complete that (that’s why the first thing I argued was granting one to the monk).
In the case of Cunning Attack, 2 points:
1) Requirements like surprise attack or having a friendly one adjacent to use Sneak Attack.
2) It takes effect after (or at the same time) than your single attack, so you cannot use it for your following ones.
And another thing I’d bring back is to choice when you hit, instead when you attack. If you roll a critical you probably want to use that attack for damage.
After seeing the arguments back and forth, I would settle for getting a Fighting Style, and call it a win for monks. Though where to place it is another question put it at 1 like the Fighter, level two like paladin and ranger, or level three alongside your subclass.
The high level scaling problems can be fixed with a dm that puts appropriate equipment into the loot pool. I know some are mad about weapon damage not scaling but with a magical weapon it is already essentially one die higher in damage (not including plus to hit). If it has any other fun effects even better.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
With all my "ranting" about UA unarmed strikes changes I had overlooked (I knew it was there but had forgotten about it while typing) that you can use the shove/grapple at the expense of doing damage. Monks have more attacks that they can use so that it could be beneficial depending on the situation. But in various threads since the idea of 1DD was first announced I have thought, and thought prior to this as well, that Open Hand monks Open Hand Technique (OHT) should be a base monk feature. And I still do, though I'm not counting on it.
I guess what I will say now though is that OHT, if a base monk feature, should stay as it is in the 2014 PHB. And Open Hand monks should build on this with some additional features. Earlier, or in another thread, I suggested that not only should the Reaction removal of OHT not require a save (per 2014 PHB) but the other two options (Shove/Prone and Push 15') should also not require a save, for Open Hand Monks. Maybe that's too strong, but as a subclass feature, compared to what some others have received in the UA's, I don't think so. And additional options could be added. Or another feature replace OHT for Open Hand monks.
I'm not a designer. I'm not an optimizer (I consider myself a casual optimizer, so I know enough to put my best stats in primary ability scores, etc.). And I don't do the math so much. So maybe I'm way off, or just misguided.
Looking all the others subclasses get something that last 10 minutes spending 1 DP, the OTH could add, to the current, spending 1 DP to enter in a state lasting 10 minutes in which you can deal any of the listed effects once per turn (instead per hit that would be spending another 1 DP on that turn). And using the current way (spending 1 DP to apply per hit with FoB) not requiring to be in that state.
Instead use the Monk's bonus action and reaction for scaling abilities.
For example a Monk can use their bonus action to dash, disengage, take the dodge action, or flurry of blows (which scales like a cantrip). They use their reaction for things like stunning strike, which dazes if the target makes its save and stuns if it doesn't.
Voila, no more short rest dependency .
We then just have to work out another mechanic for AC.
Instead use the Monk's bonus action and reaction for scaling abilities.
For example a Monk can use their bonus action to dash, disengage, take the dodge action, or flurry of blows (which scales like a cantrip). They use their reaction for things like stunning strike, which dazes if the target makes its save and stuns if it doesn't.
Voila, no more short rest dependency .
We then just have to work out another mechanic for AC.
Can’t do that since it’s not backward compatible at all. 5eR Monks have to have a point resource system for them to remain compatible with 5e Monks.
Then perhaps include ki as a mechanic on top of it.
The basic functions of a Monk do not use ki. Like a Warlock who has expended all his spell slots and is reduced to Eldritch Blast and Invocations, the Monk has a baseline function that it can keep doing all day.
When they have ki they can do the fancy things that come in their subclasses.
Can’t do that since it’s not backward compatible at all. 5eR Monks have to have a point resource system for them to remain compatible with 5e Monks.
You can still have Discipline points; with Monk's basic kit made "free" (bonus action as a cost only) then Discipline can become a long rest resource since you only need it for special abilities that push you beyond that baseline.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Then perhaps include ki as a mechanic on top of it.
The basic functions of a Monk do not use ki. Like a Warlock who has expended all his spell slots and is reduced to Eldritch Blast and Invocations, the Monk has a baseline function that it can keep doing all day.
When they have ki they can do the fancy things that come in their subclasses.
I’ve said similar in other threads: No Ki, Ki for base class features only, Ki for subclass features only. There are different ways to go.
But I don’t think WotC is in for such an overhaul like they were for the warlock.
And if I was a betting man I would almost guarantee that the next iteration of Warlock will be back to short rest pact slots. They seem to be sliding back in the name of backwards compatibility.
The Ki based sounds to be inherited from previous versions. The Monk started being very weak compared to others, and with levels ended powerful. Aside the DPR, notice that while more level you have more Discipline per Short Rest, increasing the character power exponentially. At level 15 with 15 DP per Short Rest you probably cannot even spend them, while at level 3 with only 3 DP, lacks everywhere.
The Ki based sounds to be inherited from previous versions. The Monk started being very weak compared to others, and with levels ended powerful. Aside the DPR, notice that while more level you have more Discipline per Short Rest, increasing the character power exponentially. At level 15 with 15 DP per Short Rest you probably cannot even spend them, while at level 3 with only 3 DP, lacks everywhere.
No though, because especially now with the One D&D version you literally cannot spend all your ki points at higher levels, which means your power plateaus while every other class continues to increase in power.
The Ki based sounds to be inherited from previous versions. The Monk started being very weak compared to others, and with levels ended powerful. Aside the DPR, notice that while more level you have more Discipline per Short Rest, increasing the character power exponentially. At level 15 with 15 DP per Short Rest you probably cannot even spend them, while at level 3 with only 3 DP, lacks everywhere.
No though, because especially now with the One D&D version you literally cannot spend all your ki points at higher levels, which means your power plateaus while every other class continues to increase in power.
I think it matters: get the Open Hand and at high level can deal 4 unarmed attacks with d10 and applying effects per round, plus a free extra dagger attack (Nick) for extra (only) d4. It is not bad at all I think is good. Compare with level 3, you can barely even use it and have less attacks. Even at level 5 with the extra attack, you lack of Ki points to use it what is supposed to be your subclass feature, while at high level you can abuse using it.
Saying that the Monk's "basic kit" should be entirely free and that Discipline should be a resource that amounts to the Monk pushing themselves beyond their normal limits...is rather telling, because that is exactly what the Monk's deal already is. Flurry of Blows is an extension of the Monk's bonus Unarmed Strike. Step of the Wind is an extension of the Monk's innate movement speed. Patient Defense is an extension of the Monk's unarmoured defense.
And no, you don't need to be able to spam those abilities every turn at low levels. A Monk using a quarterstaff and their bonus unarmed strike outdamages a Fighter with a two-hander.
I don’t think they will ever go this route. But if they did there would be changes to how those features work.
I don’t see an issue with step Dash or Disengage being free as a bonus action. Rogues already do this with Cunning Action.
Patient Defense (Dodge) would probably have a limit or other means of working. Or be an entirely different feature. Maybe something similar to rogue’s Uncanny Dodge, no limit there either.
Monks should treat their fists as light weapons with the Nick property so they get a free attack when fighting with them, then Flurry of Blows should add 1/2/3/4 attacks scaling like cantrips.
So they're always good at punching, and then they get serious at punching.
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There are no tactics since grapple/shove still is a Str check even if you are a monk. Also staying at range with monk erases their bonus action attack, Flurry of blows, and stunning strike abilities, so being a thrown weapon run around monk is pointless especially when you could just get light crossbow proficiency deal more damage with less effort.
according to the recent movie, shoving enemies prone and throwing them into each other is a big part of dnd combat. more of that kinda "tactical grappling" for the monk, please.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
The current progression of Discipline Points and Powers is similar to Spell Slots and Spells when I sense they should represent the monk's choices each turn. For example, Discipline Points could grow slower per level but are available each turn to the Monk, empowering their attacks and moves they can make within a turn. There may be a monk ability where they can "save" some discipline points in one round to use on a more complex set of attacks or maneuvers in a future round.
I actually think the monk was intended to be able to use Dex to grapple and shove, and I expect this would be so in the next iteration. This is my reasoning: in UA 2 (expert classes), grapple and shove are made with the attack roll of the unarmed strike. If it had remained this way, the dexterous attack feature would apply to them. Moreover, the grappler feat from the same UA have a prequisite of Str or Dex, which wouldn't make much sense if there was no intention of allowing Dex grapples.
Sure, the current version of dexterous attack only mentions attack and damage rolls, but I think RAI would also include save DC.
Probably we can count on it. Nonsense if any other full-plated character like i.e. Paladin is better in unarmed combat than the monk. Didn’t noticed the change in this UA 6.
Once fixed, it grants many options with that extra 1-2 bonus attacks from MA/Flurry of Blows to MA users.
Light Crossbow has Loading so cannot be used with multi-attack. Thrown weapons are nice for unarmed and not wearing shield as can improvise. Even if using a quarterstaff, with the Attack action you can stow 1 weapon, then use that you can draw each thrown weapon as part of the Attack action, to throw all the dart/s plus the extra free dagger (Nick). If you use the Attack action to draw the Light Crossbow (even when you have single attack), at the end you have it in your hands, while thrown weapons left your hands free. So in any case see more convenient the thrown weapons to improvise and use them or not depending how much movement do you have remaining and the situation.
A fighter with unarmed fighting style in current 5e has less DPR than a monk, but much better HP and AC at early levels. So I place them as equals in unarmed combat because of that. Also the extra options you speak of aren’t that extra since others can do them equally as well. At level 5 depending on the build and earlier depending on the subclass. Any 5th level Martial with 2 weapons can shove someone prone and take an attack with their weapon and a bonus action attack with their second weapon. If they are a warrior with the fighting style they still get to add there attack mod to damage of second weapon. A monk could do it slightly better with flurry of blows gaining an additional attack at the cost of a resource, but a battle master fighter can expend a resource deal normal damage and additional damage on the same attack as the shove. Cunning strike rogue also has that benefit. Open hand monk can do it as well. Which makes me look at the option as inferior to those designed to do it. Inferior doesn’t mean bad, but you would be better served by playing the subclasses designed for it.
With all my "ranting" about UA unarmed strikes changes I had overlooked (I knew it was there but had forgotten about it while typing) that you can use the shove/grapple at the expense of doing damage. Monks have more attacks that they can use so that it could be beneficial depending on the situation. But in various threads since the idea of 1DD was first announced I have thought, and thought prior to this as well, that Open Hand monks Open Hand Technique (OHT) should be a base monk feature. And I still do, though I'm not counting on it.
I guess what I will say now though is that OHT, if a base monk feature, should stay as it is in the 2014 PHB. And Open Hand monks should build on this with some additional features. Earlier, or in another thread, I suggested that not only should the Reaction removal of OHT not require a save (per 2014 PHB) but the other two options (Shove/Prone and Push 15') should also not require a save, for Open Hand Monks. Maybe that's too strong, but as a subclass feature, compared to what some others have received in the UA's, I don't think so. And additional options could be added. Or another feature replace OHT for Open Hand monks.
I'm not a designer. I'm not an optimizer (I consider myself a casual optimizer, so I know enough to put my best stats in primary ability scores, etc.). And I don't do the math so much. So maybe I'm way off, or just misguided.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
@Ain_Undos notice that it requires to use the fighting style so is forcing you a choice, while the monk has it for free for its unarmed combat, being the MA damage die greater than those Light weapons soon. Also you can add to the monk one extra attack for free with a dagger in the off-hand using Nick, but only with d4 not adding the Dex modifier (but better than nothing). Being able to add a fighting style (like dual-wielder of thrown weapons) could complete that (that’s why the first thing I argued was granting one to the monk).
In the case of Cunning Attack, 2 points:
1) Requirements like surprise attack or having a friendly one adjacent to use Sneak Attack.
2) It takes effect after (or at the same time) than your single attack, so you cannot use it for your following ones.
And another thing I’d bring back is to choice when you hit, instead when you attack. If you roll a critical you probably want to use that attack for damage.
After seeing the arguments back and forth, I would settle for getting a Fighting Style, and call it a win for monks. Though where to place it is another question put it at 1 like the Fighter, level two like paladin and ranger, or level three alongside your subclass.
The high level scaling problems can be fixed with a dm that puts appropriate equipment into the loot pool. I know some are mad about weapon damage not scaling but with a magical weapon it is already essentially one die higher in damage (not including plus to hit). If it has any other fun effects even better.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Looking all the others subclasses get something that last 10 minutes spending 1 DP, the OTH could add, to the current, spending 1 DP to enter in a state lasting 10 minutes in which you can deal any of the listed effects once per turn (instead per hit that would be spending another 1 DP on that turn). And using the current way (spending 1 DP to apply per hit with FoB) not requiring to be in that state.
Perhaps do away with ki as a resource altogether.
Instead use the Monk's bonus action and reaction for scaling abilities.
For example a Monk can use their bonus action to dash, disengage, take the dodge action, or flurry of blows (which scales like a cantrip). They use their reaction for things like stunning strike, which dazes if the target makes its save and stuns if it doesn't.
Voila, no more short rest dependency .
We then just have to work out another mechanic for AC.
Can’t do that since it’s not backward compatible at all. 5eR Monks have to have a point resource system for them to remain compatible with 5e Monks.
Then perhaps include ki as a mechanic on top of it.
The basic functions of a Monk do not use ki. Like a Warlock who has expended all his spell slots and is reduced to Eldritch Blast and Invocations, the Monk has a baseline function that it can keep doing all day.
When they have ki they can do the fancy things that come in their subclasses.
You can still have Discipline points; with Monk's basic kit made "free" (bonus action as a cost only) then Discipline can become a long rest resource since you only need it for special abilities that push you beyond that baseline.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I’ve said similar in other threads: No Ki, Ki for base class features only, Ki for subclass features only. There are different ways to go.
But I don’t think WotC is in for such an overhaul like they were for the warlock.
And if I was a betting man I would almost guarantee that the next iteration of Warlock will be back to short rest pact slots. They seem to be sliding back in the name of backwards compatibility.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The Ki based sounds to be inherited from previous versions. The Monk started being very weak compared to others, and with levels ended powerful. Aside the DPR, notice that while more level you have more Discipline per Short Rest, increasing the character power exponentially. At level 15 with 15 DP per Short Rest you probably cannot even spend them, while at level 3 with only 3 DP, lacks everywhere.
No though, because especially now with the One D&D version you literally cannot spend all your ki points at higher levels, which means your power plateaus while every other class continues to increase in power.
I think it matters: get the Open Hand and at high level can deal 4 unarmed attacks with d10 and applying effects per round, plus a free extra dagger attack (Nick) for extra (only) d4. It is not bad at all I think is good. Compare with level 3, you can barely even use it and have less attacks. Even at level 5 with the extra attack, you lack of Ki points to use it what is supposed to be your subclass feature, while at high level you can abuse using it.
I don’t think they will ever go this route. But if they did there would be changes to how those features work.
I don’t see an issue with step Dash or Disengage being free as a bonus action. Rogues already do this with Cunning Action.
Patient Defense (Dodge) would probably have a limit or other means of working. Or be an entirely different feature. Maybe something similar to rogue’s Uncanny Dodge, no limit there either.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Monks should treat their fists as light weapons with the Nick property so they get a free attack when fighting with them, then Flurry of Blows should add 1/2/3/4 attacks scaling like cantrips.
So they're always good at punching, and then they get serious at punching.