Saying that the Monk's "basic kit" should be entirely free and that Discipline should be a resource that amounts to the Monk pushing themselves beyond their normal limits...is rather telling, because that is exactly what the Monk's deal already is. Flurry of Blows is an extension of the Monk's bonus Unarmed Strike. Step of the Wind is an extension of the Monk's innate movement speed. Patient Defense is an extension of the Monk's unarmoured defense.
Except they're not "entirely free" because they still all require a bonus action, which is arguably cost enough, because without Patient Defense a Monk's AC isn't that high for a martial, and they have fewer hit-points, so even if they were to go all in on damage using Flurry of Blows they're a glass cannon, and if you go all-in on defence your damage suffers. The Monk should be able to out-damage or out-dodge a Fighter because every bonus action they use is preventing them from using another, so there's always a trade-off to damage and/or defence.
While you could legitimately argue some of these abilities might need to be tweaked to become "free" (e.g- Flurry of Blows only adds one attack but gives some other bonus like a smaller boost to unarmed strike damage, maybe Patient Defense without a Discipline point limits you to 0 speed), it's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest because early level resource management on the Monk is a major problem with the class, as it doesn't add anything to it and it isn't fun. These are a Monk's basic abilities, because otherwise the class is just "punch plus punch" or "weapon plus punch" and nothing else, which is incredibly boring, and it's not even that good at it.
And no, you don't need to be able to spam those abilities every turn at low levels. A Monk using a quarterstaff and their bonus unarmed strike outdamages a Fighter with a two-hander.
This is only true in tier 1 when the Monk's doing maybe an extra 2-3 damage over the Fighter at a cost of their bonus action and worse overall defences (lower hit-points, lower AC), so not outperforming Fighter at all, plus the Fighter can do the same damage if it wants to using two-weapon fighting (with the same access to Nick). As soon as both classes have Extra Attack the Monk's basic damage (using Martial Arts only) is on par with the great-weapon Fighter, and still at a cost of a bonus action on a less durable character. With Flurry of Blows you're spending a limited resource just to barely pull ahead for a few rounds, with the Fighter able to Action Surge to do the same without any action economy cost (quite the opposite in fact) while still having a bonus action free for Second Wind or feat abilities (which they can easily add) when they need them. And that's ignoring feats which the Fighter can easily take but the Monk can't (fewer Ability Score Improvements).
If the Monk's going to remain less durable than a Fighter as standard then the Monk's choice of what to do with their bonus action each turn should enable them to deal more damage, or become more durable (while dealing less damage) and so-on because that makes them different but balanced by letting them pull ahead in one area while sacrificing others round to round. While the Fighter will eventually (11th-level onwards) become all about higher baseline damage, by that point the Monk should have more ways to spend their bonus action and/or resources to contribute in other ways, but they currently don't; it's Stunning Strike or nothing right now and that ability has been an anchor around the Monk's neck for the past ten years because it's simultaneously too strong for Monk to have anything else nice, and too unreliable to be worth being constantly nerfed.
And all of this is ignoring the fact that the Fighter isn't a strong class either; it still doesn't compete with spellcasters who are stronger than ever in the playtests. The Monk should be stronger than the current version of Fighter, because the current version of Fighter also needs to be stronger.
Frankly your attitude makes no sense whatsoever for a sub-forum about changing the rules; how about instead of accusing everyone who has an idea of being a dirty rotten powergamer who wants to ruin the game, you try putting up some ideas of your own? Or if you can't be constructive, be elsewhere.
And to be clear, I'm only talking about damage because you are; it's just one of many possible ways to improve the Monk, I'd be just as happy with gaining more new abilities, or a mix of both. But ultimately this is our opportunity to shape the official Monk class we're going to be stuck with for the next ten years, and it'd be nice if it (and other pure martials) were actually more competitive in the new edition.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Saying that the Monk's "basic kit" should be entirely free and that Discipline should be a resource that amounts to the Monk pushing themselves beyond their normal limits...is rather telling, because that is exactly what the Monk's deal already is. Flurry of Blows is an extension of the Monk's bonus Unarmed Strike. Step of the Wind is an extension of the Monk's innate movement speed. Patient Defense is an extension of the Monk's unarmoured defense.
And no, you don't need to be able to spam those abilities every turn at low levels. A Monk using a quarterstaff and their bonus unarmed strike outdamages a Fighter with a two-hander.
Not really. Lower AC and lower HP. With a fighting style for i.e. adding your ability modifier to the extra dagger attack would grant more DPR to monk, at the same time is weaker receiving hits, so it would be like a glass cannon. That’s fine. But at higher levels other classes get extra to their combat balance while monk barely, has to invest any feat on the +2 to ability score to improve the AC to the expected tier, limiting much other options, and get no extra damage in any manner.
But at least with a fighting stylw could balance a bit, in addition to a system for unarmored defense based on proficiency bonus of the monk class level instead adding 2 ability modifires, to allow getting other feats adding some value in many ways other than simply updating the AC to the tier. The Barbarian can use shield with its unarmored defense, the monk has not that option, adding that the Barbarian has damage resistance using d12 hit die, then…
Ending with the return of the UA1 unarmed strike (but using the later DC saving throw system) method in which you choose what to do after you hit, instead when you declare the attack, for the chance to use the 20 for dealing critical damage even if your initial intention was another. And allow to use Dex for the unarmed strike DC as part of Martial Arts ability so the extra for the monk in combat would be versatility in dealing effects, as well as has lower DPR.
As summary:
- Fighting style.
- Unarmored defese: 10 + Dex + proficiency bonus of the monk class level.
- MA: allow to use Dex modifier to all the unarmed stuff.
- Unarmed strike: choose what to do on hit.
If you add all of this, will notice that add many options to the monk not generating any imbalance compared to other classes, and making playing a monk much more funny.
...And all of this is ignoring the fact that the Fighter isn't a strong class either; it still doesn't compete with spellcasters who are stronger than ever in the playtests. The Monk should be stronger than the current version of Fighter, because the current version of Fighter also needs to be stronger.
Frankly your attitude makes no sense whatsoever for a sub-forum about changing the rules; how about instead of accusing everyone who has an idea of being a dirty rotten powergamer who wants to ruin the game, you try putting up some ideas of your own? Or if you can't be constructive, be elsewhere.
i think i can commiserate some with lilith's annoyance. the lion's share of damage and AC comparisons with fighter here are in service to increasing monk's damage and AC. numbers used are theoretical maximums for cookie cutter forums builds and may not apply to users who, for instance, choose an off-hand shield or Sentinel feat over the "correct" choice. it could easily be taken as grabbing at a slice of power creep pie for one's favorite class before the playtest locks down the basics. shrug.
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Ending with the return of the UA1 unarmed strike (but using the later DC saving throw system) method in which you choose what to do after you hit, instead when you declare the attack, for the chance to use the 20 for dealing critical damage even if your initial intention was another. And allow to use Dex for the unarmed strike DC as part of Martial Arts ability so the extra for the monk in combat would be versatility in dealing effects, as well as has lower DPR.
As summary:
- MA: allow to use Dex modifier to all the unarmed stuff.
- Unarmed strike: choose what to do on hit.
If you add all of this, will notice that add many options to the monk not generating any imbalance compared to other classes, and making playing a monk much more funny.
This is the crazy thing for me. WHY WHY WHY do people think grappling is good now? Grapple/Shove in One D&D has been NERFED and nerfed HARD!
5e Grapple/Shove:
Replaces 1 attack, deals no damage
2 rolls of a d20 are required to determine the outcome
limited to creatures no more than 1 size larger than you
Benefits from Expertise
only Humanoids and Giants as enemies add their proficiency to avoiding it.
Cannot be blocked by Legendary Resistance
Hex (1st level spell) gives enemies disadvantage to resist
Poisoned, Frightened, or 1 level of Exhaustion all give enemies disadvantage to resist
Cutting Words can reduce the enemy attempts to resist
Bardic Inspiration can be added to the DC enemies have to overcome to resist it
The Help action can give you Advantage
Enhance ability gives you Advantage
Enlarge gives you Advantage
Reduce gives enemies Disadvantage
Rage gives you Advantage
Enemies have to use a full Action to attempt to escape.
By passes the enemy's AC
One D&D Grapple/Shove
Replaces 1 attack, deals no damage
1 roll of a d20 are required to determine the outcome
limited to creatures no more than 1 size larger than you
Can be blocked by Legendary Resistance
Many enemies have proficiency in the save to resist it
Enlarge and Rage give Advantage to enemies to resist it
Reduce is the only way to give enemies disadvantage
Bane can give enemies a 1d4 penalty to resist it
No way to increase the DC they have to pass, except by increasing STR
High enemy AC reduced success rate for Grapple/Shove (previous UA)
In 5e, even if all you did was have a High STR and proficiency in Athletics an attempt to Grapple / Shove was more likely to succeed than to fail. Even if you dumped STR, if you got expertise in Athletics you were more likely to succeed than fail on a Grapple/Shove. If you combined any two of the buffs listed above you has success rates around 80% or higher, if you combined 3 or more you were practically guaranteed to succeed on Grappling/Shoving even the highest CR monster.
In UA 6 (no attack roll just a save for Grapple/Shove) you have less than 50% chance of successfully Grapple/Shove per attempt with almost no way to improve those odds at all. In previous UAs (attack roll + a save for Grapple/Shove) you had ~ 30% chance to successfully Grapple/Shove.
TL:DR a 5e monk with Skill Expert or a 1 level dip into Rogue is better at Grappling/Shoving than a One D&D monk will ever be even if they got DEX for their grapple/shove DC.
Yes they are theoretical but by showing how the maximums compare we can see where the problems lie. Any other choices may be more nteresting from a roleplay perspective but will suffer from at least the same problems as the “best” build and maybe a number of additional problems from the build differences. One of the major problems with the monk, rogue and, to some extent, the melee ranger is that they really aren’t front wall fighters like the barb, fighter and Paladin. They aren’t really meant to just stand there trading blows, they are meant to slip in hit and slip away before getting hit. The rogue’s bonus action disengage does this, spells like Zephyr strike do it for the melee ranger, what really does it for the monk? They should be getting something like uncanny dodge as well as cunning action like the rogue (maybe not the hide ability but …). They should be getting abilities to grapple or shove or prone foes (that’s what a lot of basic martial arts self defense is all about - getting the attacker down or away or both so that they can’t attack while you can escape) at low levels with improvements at higher levels.they are strikers not walls - their abilities should reflect this, each round they should be able to move in, hit in such a way to give themselves an escape option and then move away.
Yes they are theoretical but by showing how the maximums compare we can see where the problems lie. Any other choices may be more nteresting from a roleplay perspective but will suffer from at least the same problems as the “best” build and maybe a number of additional problems from the build differences. One of the major problems with the monk, rogue and, to some extent, the melee ranger is that they really aren’t front wall fighters like the barb, fighter and Paladin. They aren’t really meant to just stand there trading blows, they are meant to slip in hit and slip away before getting hit. The rogue’s bonus action disengage does this, spells like Zephyr strike do it for the melee ranger, what really does it for the monk? They should be getting something like uncanny dodge as well as cunning action like the rogue (maybe not the hide ability but …). They should be getting abilities to grapple or shove or prone foes (that’s what a lot of basic martial arts self defense is all about - getting the attacker down or away or both so that they can’t attack while you can escape) at low levels with improvements at higher levels.they are strikers not walls - their abilities should reflect this, each round they should be able to move in, hit in such a way to give themselves an escape option and then move away.
for sure let's talk more about making disengage and shove work!
bundling disengage with dash in UA-6 step of the wind simply highlighted the fact that a square or two buys no reprieve: you either run ridiculously far or don't bother. maybe give a free unbalancing shove against any (bipedal) enemy you 'step' past. plus a bonus to reactions against enemies across adjacent difficult terrain (which prone bodies count as). more of a 'humanoid horde breaker' niche, maybe... which could be made instantly obsolete by a fireball. sigh. but you can't balance around fireball, so it's still worth saying.
I think the perk of step of the wind isn't for running away, but running towards. Disengage stops all AoO for movement for all of your movement, you double your jump distance which includes height(jumping over a melee line). you you have free 30+ feet of movement. You are getting to the archmage/lich/commander in your action and still having attacks. Sadly a single feat with a bonus action teleport gets you the same though only once a day. But get to the mage does not happen every fight.
Personally I'd remove the ki cost for it as its written, but a use of ki would remove the bonus action cost.
Ending with the return of the UA1 unarmed strike (but using the later DC saving throw system) method in which you choose what to do after you hit, instead when you declare the attack, for the chance to use the 20 for dealing critical damage even if your initial intention was another. And allow to use Dex for the unarmed strike DC as part of Martial Arts ability so the extra for the monk in combat would be versatility in dealing effects, as well as has lower DPR.
As summary:
- MA: allow to use Dex modifier to all the unarmed stuff.
- Unarmed strike: choose what to do on hit.
If you add all of this, will notice that add many options to the monk not generating any imbalance compared to other classes, and making playing a monk much more funny.
This is the crazy thing for me. WHY WHY WHY do people think grappling is good now? Grapple/Shove in One D&D has been NERFED and nerfed HARD!
5e Grapple/Shove:
Replaces 1 attack, deals no damage
2 rolls of a d20 are required to determine the outcome
limited to creatures no more than 1 size larger than you
Benefits from Expertise
only Humanoids and Giants as enemies add their proficiency to avoiding it.
Cannot be blocked by Legendary Resistance
Hex (1st level spell) gives enemies disadvantage to resist
Poisoned, Frightened, or 1 level of Exhaustion all give enemies disadvantage to resist
Cutting Words can reduce the enemy attempts to resist
Bardic Inspiration can be added to the DC enemies have to overcome to resist it
The Help action can give you Advantage
Enhance ability gives you Advantage
Enlarge gives you Advantage
Reduce gives enemies Disadvantage
Rage gives you Advantage
Enemies have to use a full Action to attempt to escape.
By passes the enemy's AC
One D&D Grapple/Shove
Replaces 1 attack, deals no damage
1 roll of a d20 are required to determine the outcome
limited to creatures no more than 1 size larger than you
Can be blocked by Legendary Resistance
Many enemies have proficiency in the save to resist it
Enlarge and Rage give Advantage to enemies to resist it
Reduce is the only way to give enemies disadvantage
Bane can give enemies a 1d4 penalty to resist it
No way to increase the DC they have to pass, except by increasing STR
High enemy AC reduced success rate for Grapple/Shove (previous UA)
In 5e, even if all you did was have a High STR and proficiency in Athletics an attempt to Grapple / Shove was more likely to succeed than to fail. Even if you dumped STR, if you got expertise in Athletics you were more likely to succeed than fail on a Grapple/Shove. If you combined any two of the buffs listed above you has success rates around 80% or higher, if you combined 3 or more you were practically guaranteed to succeed on Grappling/Shoving even the highest CR monster.
In UA 6 (no attack roll just a save for Grapple/Shove) you have less than 50% chance of successfully Grapple/Shove per attempt with almost no way to improve those odds at all. In previous UAs (attack roll + a save for Grapple/Shove) you had ~ 30% chance to successfully Grapple/Shove.
TL:DR a 5e monk with Skill Expert or a 1 level dip into Rogue is better at Grappling/Shoving than a One D&D monk will ever be even if they got DEX for their grapple/shove DC.
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
If the Monk's going to remain less durable than a Fighter as standard
The fighter in 1DD doubled down on durability with changes to second wind and indomitable, but at higher levels monks (due to deflect missiles, evasion, deflect energy, and disciplined survivor) are almost certainly more durable than rangers and possibly more durable than paladins (would be definitely if aura of protection wasn't so hilariously OP).
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
That changes nothing about the fact that a 5e monk right now is very easy to build to be better at grappling & shoving than the UA6 Monk ever will be.
Maybe they could even make a new fighting style to benefit grappling.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
That changes nothing about the fact that a 5e monk right now is very easy to build to be better at grappling & shoving than the UA6 Monk ever will be.
The fact is that I am not thinking about "builds". Why are people so obsessed with all those about maths and builds? This is not a Diablo game, but a RPG. Having adequate access to those unarmed maneuvers (allowing to use Dex for DC) and correctly used at the correct time, can be very useful. Is about tactics and convenience, I repeat.
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
That changes nothing about the fact that a 5e monk right now is very easy to build to be better at grappling & shoving than the UA6 Monk ever will be.
I honestly feel like the grapple/shove thing on Monk has to be an oversight. Early on they had you attacking with an unarmed strike to land the shove and grapple and when they changed it to a save I believe they just forgot to change the monk's martial arts to work with it again.
Early on I do think monk is ok. Monks losing monk weapon damage scaling sucks and the biggest problem with monks comes in at level 11.
Compared to 2014 Warlock+ hex+ agonizing blast at level 10 for example. .6(2d10+2d6+10)+ .05(2d10+2d6)= 17.7 vs .6(4d8+20)+ .05(4d8)= 23.75 Of course the warlock can do theirs at a range and still have other riders so there is a trade off, I am assuming Flurry every turn because by the time of level 10 between short rests recovery, Heightened Metabolism and the ability to only use stunning strike once per turn I don't see any reason why you wouldn't flurry every turn other than to run away, but then that is a choice being made with the knowledge damage will be sacrificed. it is 11 where it becomes an issue with Warlock jumping to .6(3d10+3d6+15)+.05(3d10+3d6)=26.55 vs new Monk .6(4d10+20)+.05(4d10)=26.3 With monk in melee and doing less and with less utility, though slightly more survivable thanks mostly to evasion, but not a lot because Warlock has spells. At level 3 Warlock is .6(1d10+1d6+3)+.05(1d10+1d6)=7.65 Monk is .6(2d6+6)+.05(2d6) =8.15
Ultimately I think monk is OK until 11 and then it falls apart. It isn't the BEST before then, but it has a very very small things going for it. It also struggles a little at level 5 and 6 because of not enough ki to flurry every turn which it needs to do to keep up.
This is why the suggestion of no ki cost for flurry is prevalent. If you only have the 1 attack from martial arts until 5 and then 5 unlocks extra attack AND flurry of blows the damage monk does can stay relevant. Disengaging or dashing as a bonus action is something the rogue already gets for free and dodging as a bonus action gives up one (later 2) attacks and helps make up for the otherwise poor AC monk has.
at higher levels monks (due to deflect missiles, evasion, deflect energy, and disciplined survivor) are almost certainly more durable than rangers and possibly more durable than paladins (would be definitely if aura of protection wasn't so hilariously OP).
I don't really see it; Evasion is nice but Deflect Energy and Disciplined Survivor are 13th- and 14th-level features so hardly part of the Monk's basic kit.
The Paladin and Ranger by comparison both have access to healing and defensive spells, and the Paladin as a solo effectively has five extra hit-points per level thanks to Lay On Hands at the cost of only one action (or bonus action in the playtest). And they get these via 1st-/2nd-level features.
Last thing we need is for Monk to suffer at tier 1/2 just because it gets something nice in a tier 3 most campaigns will never get to.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
That changes nothing about the fact that a 5e monk right now is very easy to build to be better at grappling & shoving than the UA6 Monk ever will be.
I honestly feel like the grapple/shove thing on Monk has to be an oversight. Early on they had you attacking with an unarmed strike to land the shove and grapple and when they changed it to a save I believe they just forgot to change the monk's martial arts to work with it again.
Early on I do think monk is ok. Monks losing monk weapon damage scaling sucks and the biggest problem with monks comes in at level 11.
Compared to 2014 Warlock+ hex+ agonizing blast at level 10 for example. .6(2d10+2d6+10)+ .05(2d10+2d6)= 17.7 vs .6(4d8+20)+ .05(4d8)= 23.75 Of course the warlock can do theirs at a range and still have other riders so there is a trade off, I am assuming Flurry every turn because by the time of level 10 between short rests recovery, Heightened Metabolism and the ability to only use stunning strike once per turn I don't see any reason why you wouldn't flurry every turn other than to run away, but then that is a choice being made with the knowledge damage will be sacrificed. it is 11 where it becomes an issue with Warlock jumping to .6(3d10+3d6+15)+.05(3d10+3d6)=26.55 vs new Monk .6(4d10+20)+.05(4d10)=26.3 With monk in melee and doing less and with less utility, though slightly more survivable thanks mostly to evasion, but not a lot because Warlock has spells. At level 3 Warlock is .6(1d10+1d6+3)+.05(1d10+1d6)=7.65 Monk is .6(2d6+6)+.05(2d6) =8.15
Ultimately I think monk is OK until 11 and then it falls apart. It isn't the BEST before then, but it has a very very small things going for it. It also struggles a little at level 5 and 6 because of not enough ki to flurry every turn which it needs to do to keep up.
This is why the suggestion of no ki cost for flurry is prevalent. If you only have the 1 attack from martial arts until 5 and then 5 unlocks extra attack AND flurry of blows the damage monk does can stay relevant. Disengaging or dashing as a bonus action is something the rogue already gets for free and dodging as a bonus action gives up one (later 2) attacks and helps make up for the otherwise poor AC monk has.
To you our calculations, didn’t they make Hex once per turn so your baseline would be smaller?
To you our calculations, didn’t they make Hex once per turn so your baseline would be smaller?
At level 11, the Warlock can expend a third level slot to make their Hex 2d6.
Although it's inferior to doing d6 on three shots, it's better if you're good at missing since you only need to hit once to do the extra damage.
It's inferior between levels 5 and 9, because there you don't have a third level slot to spend on Hex, but from level 9 on it's about on par to damage from the older version. Likewise the 3d6 from a fifth level slot at level 17.
Of course there's always something better than Hex to spend a fifth level spell slot on.
To you our calculations, didn’t they make Hex once per turn so your baseline would be smaller?
At level 11, the Warlock can expend a third level slot to make their Hex 2d6.
Although it's inferior to doing d6 on three shots, it's better if you're good at missing since you only need to hit once to do the extra damage.
It's inferior between levels 5 and 9, because there you don't have a third level slot to spend on Hex, but from level 9 on it's about on par to damage from the older version. Likewise the 3d6 from a fifth level slot at level 17.
Of course there's always something better than Hex to spend a fifth level spell slot on.
I get that but I believe this was a level 10 damage calculation with 2d6 (only have 2 of these slots) and 11th level with 3d6 (you don’t have these slots yet). And not sure how often you would use your limited 3rd-4th and 5th level slots to get an extra 1d6/2d6
And the simplest fix to unarmored defense is for it to be:
AC = 10 + 2(dex modifier).
That means 20AC at level 8, which brings it in line with other melee classes.
Except they're not "entirely free" because they still all require a bonus action, which is arguably cost enough, because without Patient Defense a Monk's AC isn't that high for a martial, and they have fewer hit-points, so even if they were to go all in on damage using Flurry of Blows they're a glass cannon, and if you go all-in on defence your damage suffers. The Monk should be able to out-damage or out-dodge a Fighter because every bonus action they use is preventing them from using another, so there's always a trade-off to damage and/or defence.
While you could legitimately argue some of these abilities might need to be tweaked to become "free" (e.g- Flurry of Blows only adds one attack but gives some other bonus like a smaller boost to unarmed strike damage, maybe Patient Defense without a Discipline point limits you to 0 speed), it's a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest because early level resource management on the Monk is a major problem with the class, as it doesn't add anything to it and it isn't fun. These are a Monk's basic abilities, because otherwise the class is just "punch plus punch" or "weapon plus punch" and nothing else, which is incredibly boring, and it's not even that good at it.
This is only true in tier 1 when the Monk's doing maybe an extra 2-3 damage over the Fighter at a cost of their bonus action and worse overall defences (lower hit-points, lower AC), so not outperforming Fighter at all, plus the Fighter can do the same damage if it wants to using two-weapon fighting (with the same access to Nick). As soon as both classes have Extra Attack the Monk's basic damage (using Martial Arts only) is on par with the great-weapon Fighter, and still at a cost of a bonus action on a less durable character. With Flurry of Blows you're spending a limited resource just to barely pull ahead for a few rounds, with the Fighter able to Action Surge to do the same without any action economy cost (quite the opposite in fact) while still having a bonus action free for Second Wind or feat abilities (which they can easily add) when they need them. And that's ignoring feats which the Fighter can easily take but the Monk can't (fewer Ability Score Improvements).
If the Monk's going to remain less durable than a Fighter as standard then the Monk's choice of what to do with their bonus action each turn should enable them to deal more damage, or become more durable (while dealing less damage) and so-on because that makes them different but balanced by letting them pull ahead in one area while sacrificing others round to round. While the Fighter will eventually (11th-level onwards) become all about higher baseline damage, by that point the Monk should have more ways to spend their bonus action and/or resources to contribute in other ways, but they currently don't; it's Stunning Strike or nothing right now and that ability has been an anchor around the Monk's neck for the past ten years because it's simultaneously too strong for Monk to have anything else nice, and too unreliable to be worth being constantly nerfed.
And all of this is ignoring the fact that the Fighter isn't a strong class either; it still doesn't compete with spellcasters who are stronger than ever in the playtests. The Monk should be stronger than the current version of Fighter, because the current version of Fighter also needs to be stronger.
Frankly your attitude makes no sense whatsoever for a sub-forum about changing the rules; how about instead of accusing everyone who has an idea of being a dirty rotten powergamer who wants to ruin the game, you try putting up some ideas of your own? Or if you can't be constructive, be elsewhere.
And to be clear, I'm only talking about damage because you are; it's just one of many possible ways to improve the Monk, I'd be just as happy with gaining more new abilities, or a mix of both. But ultimately this is our opportunity to shape the official Monk class we're going to be stuck with for the next ten years, and it'd be nice if it (and other pure martials) were actually more competitive in the new edition.
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Not really. Lower AC and lower HP. With a fighting style for i.e. adding your ability modifier to the extra dagger attack would grant more DPR to monk, at the same time is weaker receiving hits, so it would be like a glass cannon. That’s fine. But at higher levels other classes get extra to their combat balance while monk barely, has to invest any feat on the +2 to ability score to improve the AC to the expected tier, limiting much other options, and get no extra damage in any manner.
But at least with a fighting stylw could balance a bit, in addition to a system for unarmored defense based on proficiency bonus of the monk class level instead adding 2 ability modifires, to allow getting other feats adding some value in many ways other than simply updating the AC to the tier. The Barbarian can use shield with its unarmored defense, the monk has not that option, adding that the Barbarian has damage resistance using d12 hit die, then…
Ending with the return of the UA1 unarmed strike (but using the later DC saving throw system) method in which you choose what to do after you hit, instead when you declare the attack, for the chance to use the 20 for dealing critical damage even if your initial intention was another. And allow to use Dex for the unarmed strike DC as part of Martial Arts ability so the extra for the monk in combat would be versatility in dealing effects, as well as has lower DPR.
As summary:
- Fighting style.
- Unarmored defese: 10 + Dex + proficiency bonus of the monk class level.
- MA: allow to use Dex modifier to all the unarmed stuff.
- Unarmed strike: choose what to do on hit.
If you add all of this, will notice that add many options to the monk not generating any imbalance compared to other classes, and making playing a monk much more funny.
i think i can commiserate some with lilith's annoyance. the lion's share of damage and AC comparisons with fighter here are in service to increasing monk's damage and AC. numbers used are theoretical maximums for cookie cutter forums builds and may not apply to users who, for instance, choose an off-hand shield or Sentinel feat over the "correct" choice. it could easily be taken as grabbing at a slice of power creep pie for one's favorite class before the playtest locks down the basics. shrug.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
This is the crazy thing for me. WHY WHY WHY do people think grappling is good now? Grapple/Shove in One D&D has been NERFED and nerfed HARD!
5e Grapple/Shove:
One D&D Grapple/Shove
In 5e, even if all you did was have a High STR and proficiency in Athletics an attempt to Grapple / Shove was more likely to succeed than to fail. Even if you dumped STR, if you got expertise in Athletics you were more likely to succeed than fail on a Grapple/Shove. If you combined any two of the buffs listed above you has success rates around 80% or higher, if you combined 3 or more you were practically guaranteed to succeed on Grappling/Shoving even the highest CR monster.
In UA 6 (no attack roll just a save for Grapple/Shove) you have less than 50% chance of successfully Grapple/Shove per attempt with almost no way to improve those odds at all. In previous UAs (attack roll + a save for Grapple/Shove) you had ~ 30% chance to successfully Grapple/Shove.
TL:DR a 5e monk with Skill Expert or a 1 level dip into Rogue is better at Grappling/Shoving than a One D&D monk will ever be even if they got DEX for their grapple/shove DC.
Yes they are theoretical but by showing how the maximums compare we can see where the problems lie. Any other choices may be more nteresting from a roleplay perspective but will suffer from at least the same problems as the “best” build and maybe a number of additional problems from the build differences. One of the major problems with the monk, rogue and, to some extent, the melee ranger is that they really aren’t front wall fighters like the barb, fighter and Paladin. They aren’t really meant to just stand there trading blows, they are meant to slip in hit and slip away before getting hit. The rogue’s bonus action disengage does this, spells like Zephyr strike do it for the melee ranger, what really does it for the monk? They should be getting something like uncanny dodge as well as cunning action like the rogue (maybe not the hide ability but …). They should be getting abilities to grapple or shove or prone foes (that’s what a lot of basic martial arts self defense is all about - getting the attacker down or away or both so that they can’t attack while you can escape) at low levels with improvements at higher levels.they are strikers not walls - their abilities should reflect this, each round they should be able to move in, hit in such a way to give themselves an escape option and then move away.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
for sure let's talk more about making disengage and shove work!
bundling disengage with dash in UA-6 step of the wind simply highlighted the fact that a square or two buys no reprieve: you either run ridiculously far or don't bother. maybe give a free unbalancing shove against any (bipedal) enemy you 'step' past. plus a bonus to reactions against enemies across adjacent difficult terrain (which prone bodies count as). more of a 'humanoid horde breaker' niche, maybe... which could be made instantly obsolete by a fireball. sigh. but you can't balance around fireball, so it's still worth saying.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I think the perk of step of the wind isn't for running away, but running towards. Disengage stops all AoO for movement for all of your movement, you double your jump distance which includes height(jumping over a melee line). you you have free 30+ feet of movement. You are getting to the archmage/lich/commander in your action and still having attacks. Sadly a single feat with a bonus action teleport gets you the same though only once a day. But get to the mage does not happen every fight.
Personally I'd remove the ki cost for it as its written, but a use of ki would remove the bonus action cost.
Shove grants many gaming possibilities, reinforces the hit-and-run tactic, dealing prone condition forces the foe to use half movement to stand up, so you can, with your extra monk movement, close up, prone, hit, then move away 20', then the foe must use 15' to stand up and with the remaining 15' cannot reach you, it can only use its opportunity attack with disadvantage because the prone condition, also spending its Reaction. If it is using a Reach weapon, simply move 25' away as the monk continues to get more extra movement. In close spaces is great as you reduce the requirement of distance to half to make use of your hit-and-run tactic.
The Grapple can have another uses, is all tactics, chances and options, useful if know how to use them.
As the monk get extra attack with the MA feature, looks like the perfect feature to use them for those extra options.
The fighter in 1DD doubled down on durability with changes to second wind and indomitable, but at higher levels monks (due to deflect missiles, evasion, deflect energy, and disciplined survivor) are almost certainly more durable than rangers and possibly more durable than paladins (would be definitely if aura of protection wasn't so hilariously OP).
Well monk requires a fighting style yes or yes. No matter what and no excuses.
I would definitely like it to.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
That changes nothing about the fact that a 5e monk right now is very easy to build to be better at grappling & shoving than the UA6 Monk ever will be.
Maybe they could even make a new fighting style to benefit grappling.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The fact is that I am not thinking about "builds". Why are people so obsessed with all those about maths and builds? This is not a Diablo game, but a RPG. Having adequate access to those unarmed maneuvers (allowing to use Dex for DC) and correctly used at the correct time, can be very useful. Is about tactics and convenience, I repeat.
I honestly feel like the grapple/shove thing on Monk has to be an oversight. Early on they had you attacking with an unarmed strike to land the shove and grapple and when they changed it to a save I believe they just forgot to change the monk's martial arts to work with it again.
Early on I do think monk is ok. Monks losing monk weapon damage scaling sucks and the biggest problem with monks comes in at level 11.
Compared to 2014 Warlock+ hex+ agonizing blast at level 10 for example.
.6(2d10+2d6+10)+ .05(2d10+2d6)= 17.7
vs .6(4d8+20)+ .05(4d8)= 23.75
Of course the warlock can do theirs at a range and still have other riders so there is a trade off, I am assuming Flurry every turn because by the time of level 10 between short rests recovery, Heightened Metabolism and the ability to only use stunning strike once per turn I don't see any reason why you wouldn't flurry every turn other than to run away, but then that is a choice being made with the knowledge damage will be sacrificed.
it is 11 where it becomes an issue with Warlock jumping to .6(3d10+3d6+15)+.05(3d10+3d6)=26.55
vs new Monk .6(4d10+20)+.05(4d10)=26.3
With monk in melee and doing less and with less utility, though slightly more survivable thanks mostly to evasion, but not a lot because Warlock has spells.
At level 3
Warlock is .6(1d10+1d6+3)+.05(1d10+1d6)=7.65
Monk is
.6(2d6+6)+.05(2d6) =8.15
Ultimately I think monk is OK until 11 and then it falls apart. It isn't the BEST before then, but it has a very very small things going for it.
It also struggles a little at level 5 and 6 because of not enough ki to flurry every turn which it needs to do to keep up.
This is why the suggestion of no ki cost for flurry is prevalent.
If you only have the 1 attack from martial arts until 5 and then 5 unlocks extra attack AND flurry of blows the damage monk does can stay relevant. Disengaging or dashing as a bonus action is something the rogue already gets for free and dodging as a bonus action gives up one (later 2) attacks and helps make up for the otherwise poor AC monk has.
I don't really see it; Evasion is nice but Deflect Energy and Disciplined Survivor are 13th- and 14th-level features so hardly part of the Monk's basic kit.
The Paladin and Ranger by comparison both have access to healing and defensive spells, and the Paladin as a solo effectively has five extra hit-points per level thanks to Lay On Hands at the cost of only one action (or bonus action in the playtest). And they get these via 1st-/2nd-level features.
Last thing we need is for Monk to suffer at tier 1/2 just because it gets something nice in a tier 3 most campaigns will never get to.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To you our calculations, didn’t they make Hex once per turn so your baseline would be smaller?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
At level 11, the Warlock can expend a third level slot to make their Hex 2d6.
Although it's inferior to doing d6 on three shots, it's better if you're good at missing since you only need to hit once to do the extra damage.
It's inferior between levels 5 and 9, because there you don't have a third level slot to spend on Hex, but from level 9 on it's about on par to damage from the older version. Likewise the 3d6 from a fifth level slot at level 17.
Of course there's always something better than Hex to spend a fifth level spell slot on.
I get that but I believe this was a level 10 damage calculation with 2d6 (only have 2 of these slots) and 11th level with 3d6 (you don’t have these slots yet). And not sure how often you would use your limited 3rd-4th and 5th level slots to get an extra 1d6/2d6
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?