monks don't have dual wielder early teir in 5e (5e dual wielder gives AC and two d8s not to mention its trash compared to gwm/ss), and in UA, anyone with two attacks can make 4 attacks per round with PAM. by level 5., and once you consider rage, reckless, multiple fighting styles, extra feats, hunters mark, divine favor, etc, monk is far behind, and only getting worse later on. Not to mention better use of masteries.
In this UA, I guess those 4 attacks are coming from the whole "draw/stow your weapon as part of the attack", which involves having at least 3 weapons on yourself (1 for PAM and 2 for Nick), right? Well, monks also get 4 attacks at level 5 and can even get a 5th one with just the Nick weapons alone and 1 DP. Granted only Hand or Shadow would do this (since Elements is most likely hitting from range), but since it's possible for the base class, then every other subclass would be able to do it (Kensei and Mercy are the ones I look forward to see how this affects them). I'm not disagreeing though, I know monks don't get offensive features after level 5 (aside from the MA die increase), they get more defensive features that some people don't like cause they come "too late" (other classes would kill to get Diamond Soul once saving throws get more dangerous than attack rolls), but the subclasses are there to drive your offensive as well.
Can any of you honestly explain to me why you want them to be mechanically bad at damage in all honesty(you only play level 5)? especially after ss nerf I really don't get you guys. honestly the problems with monk are everything costs ki, low damage , low ac , mad ,cant get benefits from feats . so my fix is give them better damage, more ac, less ki cost and acces to feats, yawl like no way that's broken. meanwhile battle master , berserker barb and pali feasting ,and crickets on that side of course.
Stunning Strike was probably limited to once per turn to teach players a lesson: 'Don't burn all your DP on 1 turn trying to Stun a creature!' Even as a Wis-based monk, I only try SS on the first attack that hits (basically the only way the new SS is meant to be used), and if it didn't land, then move forward with other options; using 5 ki points to use it 4 times is the youtuber's typical depiction of "the only thing a monk can do". I don't have a good explanation for the duration though, that affects the monk player exclusively, but well, maybe WoTC wants to get rid of SS by disencouraging its usage?
The MAD problem (which includes the AC) is only an issue with Hand (and surely, you are correct here), but Shadow and Elements are not really in the same situation, they can make do with a +2 Wis and allocate the ASIs however they want.
After looking at videos and reading everyone’s comments hear I believe the easiest ways to fix the monk without a full rework or adding a bunch of features is tweaking a few base monks features.
1st Martial Arts- Can use Dex instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons, Grapple DCs, and Shove DCs. 1d6 MA die improves based on MA table. One additional Unarmed Strike can be made as part of the same attack action. You can have 1 Dedicated Weapon it can be any melee weapon that you are proficient that lacks heavy property with. That Dedicated Weapon can use Dex instead of Str and your MA die. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest.
2nd Martial Discipline/Ki- 2 points and 1 point for each level gained in Monk. FOB is just one attack as a bonus action, but can be a weapon attack with a dedicated weapon or Unarmed Strike (the other Unarmed Strike is part of your Action see above). Patient Defense is Dodge as a bonus action, but if you are hit with any attack rolls from hostile creatures before your next turn you regain 1 DP/KP at the start of your next turn. SotW is Dash and Disengage as same bonus action and jump distance is doubled for the turn.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed and can disengage as a bonus action while not wearing armor or using a shield. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Deflect Missiles- Reaction Reduces ranged attack 1d10+Dex or Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 can spend 1DP to make a throw attack.
4th- Acrobatic Movement- While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you have resistance to any damage you would receive as a result of falling. Additionally you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Stunning Strike- Once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can spend 1DP to attempt to stun the target they must make a Con Save DC 8+PB+Wis. On failure they are Stunned until the start of your next turn, on a success they are Dazed until the end of the current turn.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- You may spend an action to remove the charmed or frighten condition from yourself. Additionally if you spend 1 minute meditating you may restore all expended Discipline points. You may only restore discipline points in this way once and regain the ability to do so again when you complete a long rest.
9th Slow Fall- Using your reaction you can reduce fall damage by up to 5 times your Monk level.
10th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
13th Deflect Energy- no change
14th Diamond Soul- I prefer this name more than disciplined survivor, but they both function the same.
15th Perfect Discipline- When you roll initiative you gain temporary 4 discipline points. These discipline points vanish at the end of the encounter if they they aren’t expended. Additionally you no longer require food or water.
18th Empty Body- As a bonus action you may spend 4 discipline points gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. During this time you may use Patient Defense without expending a DP.
20th Defy Death- If you drop to 0 Hit Points, you can spend 4 Discipline Points, roll four Martial Arts dice, and add the dice together. Your number of Hit Points instead changes to the total rolled + Wis. Each time you use this feature after the first, the Discipline Point cost increases by 2. When you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, the Discipline Point cost resets to 4.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique- One your turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike you may also impose one of these effects on the target.
Addle. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or it can’t take Reactions until the end of your next turn.
Push. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to 15 feet away from yourself.
Topple. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
6th Wholeness of Body- no change
11th Fleet Feet- You can use SotW without Expending a DP. Additionally while SotW is active, if you move 10ft in a straight line before you hit a target with an Unarmed Strike they take additional damage equal to 1d4 per 5ft travelled in a straight line. Max proficiency bonus d4s.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the target must make a Constitution saving throw, gaining the Unconscious condition for 1 minute or until they take damage from another source, or until another creature uses its action to shake them awake, they take 12d12 + your Monk level of Force, Necrotic or Thunder damage (your choice when you use the action to cause damage) on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one and don’t fall unconscious. Each day after the vibrations have started 1d12 will deal maximum damage instead of rolling it. After 12 days the length of time a creature is unconscious on a failed save increases by 1 hour each day, damage won’t wake them and they can’t be shaken awake. You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
Darkness. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to cast the Darkness spell without any spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature. While the spell persists, you can move its area of darkness to a space within 60 feet of you at the start of each of your turns.
Darkvision. You gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range increases by 60 feet.
Shadowy Figments. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip and use Wisdom as the spellcasting ability for it
Shadowy Stealth. You can spend 2 Discipline Points to cast Pass Without a Trace or Silence without any spell components.
6th Shadow Step- no change
11th Improved Shadow Step- You can draw on your connection to shadow to empower your teleportation. When you use your Shadow Step, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to remove the requirement that you must start and end in Dim Light or Darkness for that use of the feature. As part of this Bonus Action, you can make an Unarmed Strike immediately after the teleportation. This strike deals extra cold or necrotic damage (your choice) equal to 1 MA die.
17th Cloak of Shadows- As a Bonus Action while entirely within Dim Light or Darkness, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to shroud yourself with magical darkness for 1 minute, until you have the Incapacitated condition, or until you end your turn in Bright Light. While shrouded in darkness, you gain the following benefits:
Invisibility. You have the Invisible condition.
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but you take 1d10 Force damage if you end your turn inside a creature or an object.
Shadow Flurry. You can use your Flurry of Blows without spending any Discipline Points.
Shadow Strikes. Your Unarmed Strikes deal an additional 1d4 necrotic or cold damage (your choice)
monks can get another attack, but its effectivenes becomes pretty similar to not using it Because they have to use a d4 to proc nick, and a d6 is the highest light weapon they can access. by the time its a d10, its like a .5 difference.
By level 5 its a difference of like 1.5 per round. However, fighters can get twf, enhanced crit rate, barbarians can add rage dmg, and brutal crit with reckless adds 1-2 damage per hit. Some subclasses don't need this pattern to do good damage, but its available to them. paladin has concentration buffs per hit, and eventually get d8 per hit. So, mathematically its not a big dif for monks, but a huge dif for others.
the current monk design has them seeming really strong early, falling behind at 5+, and bodied by 11
"No, it really isn't. Monks have quite good damage until tier 3" you even admit it sucks after tier 3 that needs repair, see even when you are arguing against me your agreeing lol .
I'm disagreeing with certain specifics. A number of martial classes, including the monk, have grossly inadequate damage increases after tier 2, but you're not doing anyone any favors by exaggerating the problem.
Its the opposite actually you underselling the problem insures fixes are less likely.
1st Martial Arts - You can use Dex or Wis instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, or attacks with your Dedicated Weapon, which is one weapon you are proficient with that lacks the heavy property. These attacks deal damage equal to your MA die which is 1d6 & increases according to the Monk table. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest. When you take the Attack action, you can make one additional Unarmed Strike as part of that action.
2nd Martial Discipline. When you take the Attack action on your turn and you are not wearing armour or using a shield you can use a bonus action to do one of the following:
Patient Defense - take the Dodge action
Flurry of Blows - make one unarmed strike
Technique - you can apply one weapon mastery of your choice to each of your unarmed strikes or attacks with your dedicated weapon until the end of your turn.
Step of the Wind - you jump horizontally up to a distance equal to your movement speed, or vertically half this distance, without provoking attacks of opportunity.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Slow fall - While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
4th- Acrobatic Movement - You can move through enemies as if they were difficult terrain, and can move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Deflect Attack - Reaction when targeted by an attack, you reduce the damage by 1d10+Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 you can deal damage to the attacker equal to one roll of your MA die plus your Wis of the same type as dealt by the original attack.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Staggering Strike - when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can throw them off balance, the target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your ki DC or become staggered until the end of its next turn. A staggered creature can't take reactions, attacks against them are made at advantage and they make attacks at disadvantage and they make Strength and Dexterity saving throws at disadvantage. You can use this ability only once per turn.
7th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- If you start your turn frightened or charmed, these conditions end on you immediately (no action required).
9th Tongue of the Sun and Moon - you can speak, read, and write all languages. When you make a Charisma check you add your Wisdom modifier to the roll.
10th Diamond Soul- you gain proficiency in all saving throws
11th Riposte - whenever you use your Deflect Attack, you can make one unarmed strike as part of the same reaction.
13th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
14th Empty Body - you can use your action to become invisible for 1 minute or cast Astral Projection only on yourself. You can use this ability once, and regain the ability to use it when you finish a short or long rest.
15th Mystic Flight - you can use a bonus action to give yourself a flying speed equal to your walking speed until the end of your turn. If you are still aloft at the end of your turn you fall.
18th Empty Body - As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier, regaining all uses when you finish a long rest.
20th Defy Death - If you drop to 0 Hit Points, make a Wisdom saving throw. The DC starts at 10 and increases by 5 each time this ability is triggered. On a success you remain at 1 hit point. The DC resets to 10 when you finish a short or long rest.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique - When you use your Martial Discipline feature you can choose two different options instead of one.
6th Wholeness of Body - as an action you can restore yourself to your maximum hp. Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
11th you can cast Sanctuary targeting yourself. You can cast this spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier and regain all uses when you finish a long rest.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. When you use this action, the target takes 12d12+your Monk level Force damage, and must make a Constitution saving throw, on a failure the target is paralyzed until they take any damage, on a success they are immune to your quivering palm for 24 hours. You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
You can cast Silence and Pass Without a Trace. Once you have cast one of these spells you cannot cast that spell again until you have finished on long rest.
As an action, you can cloak yourself in magical darkness becoming heavily obscured to all creatures other than you. This effect ends if you lose concentration as if you were concentrating on a spell.
Darkvision. You gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range increases by 60 feet.
Shadowy Figments. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip and use Wisdom as the spellcasting ability for it.
6th Shadow Step - no change
11th Improved Shadow Step - You can Shadow Step even if your destination is not in Dim Light or Darkness, as part of this bonus action you can either take the Hide action or make one unarmed strike immediately after the teleportation.
17th Cloak of Shadows- Your Shadow Arts no longer require your concentration. In addition, when you hit a creature that cannot see you with a weapon attack or unarmed strike you deal an additional 2d6 necrotic damage to them.
I am convinced that the monk class is too full of features and has become exceedingly complicated. It needs drastic changes that allow it to be more practical and less vague in its evolution as a class. The monk is a big problem because it tries to be a hybrid of weapons and unarmed strikes. Now even more so with the coming of Weapon Mastery. Because it is clear as day that it does not work with unarmed strikes. I think you should capture the essence of the monk class and the points where it differs from the others are : unarmed strikes, movement speed and inner energy. I think one should start from here. Then eliminate the superfluous and optimize so as not to create abominations to which its path is not even defined. And I think that's also what WotC is trying in that way, although in a totally unacceptable way.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate). To suggest that this was not exactly the sort of character that was envisioned by the creators of the martial arts Monk in current and previous D&D editions would be very difficult.
You talk about characters needing to fill an archetype and that's fine. But classes like the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Warlock and Cleric all demonstrate that a class can fulfill multiple archetypes mechanically by focusing on different elements of their class features and character attributes. The Monk is so focused right now on "unarmed and unarmored combat" that it can't even do those two things well because there's no flexibility in how players can react to changing encounters. If encounters aren't designed to make use of a fast moving melee combatant with middling DPR in some capacity, then all you have is a very speedy punching bag that's designed to soak up damage that would otherwise be going towards the casters and the nova martials. But unlike other classes said punching bag can't take a good hit nor can it maintain higher output.
Mechanically, what could be done to allow the Monk greater flexibility? I see three easy fixes:
1: Monks gain extra ASIs and Feats to emulate their focus on achieving mental, physical and spiritual perfection.
2: Monks regain their class resource in such a way that it does not require the rest of the party to wait for them, such as by taking an action or accepting a momentary negative consequence (disadvantage on Initiative, stand still for a turn without making any attack or damage rolls etc).
3: Mandatory class feature requirements (no armor, no shields, must be armed or unarmed etc) are made optional with only portions of the related features occurring but full capability being restored if you meet all of the criteria.
the fastest people in the world are power athletes sprinters on average are very strong they aint lithe lightweights. same with some of the best strikers they can be small but they can also be Jon jones or Francis Ngannou. no matter the fighter strength just adds extra . technique is number one but its silly to think strength isnt a part of the game
and ya those guys are strong . martial arts just enhances the efficacy of ones strength .
even bruce lee would probably out bench alot of people.
Sure but a D&D monk isn't a mundane martial artist. Their abilities come from their mystical connection of ki, not necessarily their physical bodies. They are more similar to Jedi than to Bruce Lee.
"Not a Monk, he clearly didn't dump Strength. Must be a Barbarian."
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate).
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
This is the first paragraph describing the Monk in the PHB:
Whatever their discipline, monks are united in their ability to magically harness the energy that flows in their bodies. Whether channeled as a striking display of combat prowess or a subtler focus of defensive ability and speed, this energy infuses all that a monk does.
Can someone please tell me where the words "martial artist" appear there? or "street fighter" or "brawler" or anything else describing them as a mundane fighter who uses physical strength to fight?
The first subsection of the Monk class is titled: "The Magic of Ki" - doesn't sound like Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee... or a UFC fighter or a Sumo wrestler.. or any mundane martial artist.
Indeed the ONLY place in the class where martial arts is stated at all is in the class feature and die of that name. Martial artist is never mentioned. Spirituality is always mentioned along side physical training...
Small walled cloisters dot the landscapes of the worlds of D&D, tiny refuges from the flow of ordinary life, where time seems to stand still. The monks who live there seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training.
Some monks live entirely apart from the surrounding population, secluded from anything that might impede their spiritual progress.
Those who leave their cloisters take their work seriously, approaching their adventures as personal tests of their physical and spiritual growth.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate).
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
Or, and hear me out: maybe the reason he isn't a roided up barbarian is because physical strength training is more likely to make you look like a sumo wrestler than Arnold Schwarzeneggar?
I didn't say anything about 20 Str 20 Con 8 Dex. I said maybe for a class that is explicitly given the option of using Dexterity OR STRENGTH for its combat actions maybe the player should be allowed to choose their combat attribute without making their character useless? Because right now if you choose Strength, your character starts with a maximum possible AC of THIRTEEN and no ability to don armor or carry a shield.
Maybe players should be encouraged to createtheir own character instead of conforming to your very narrow idea of what the Monk is - a class that is explicitly and intentionally based on Martial Arts pop culture depictions and has been since it was introduced in 1975 in the Blackmoor supplement as "Monks: Order of Monastic Martial Arts."
And with the explicit goal of removing Asian sterotypes from the Monk class, maybe WOTC should focus on removing the actual stereotype: the Asian mysticism element that has pervaded depictions of martial arts in the west since the Victorian period. Because martial arts is not only core to the identity of the class, but martial arts disciplines are found all over the world while the mystic martial artist is almost entirely exclusive to Asian pop culture.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate).
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
Or, and hear me out: maybe the reason he isn't a roided up barbarian is because physical strength training is more likely to make you look like a sumo wrestler than Arnold Schwarzeneggar?
I didn't say anything about 20 Str 20 Con 8 Dex. I said maybe for a class that is explicitly given the option of using Dexterity OR STRENGTH for its combat actions maybe the player should be allowed to choose their combat attribute without making their character useless? Because right now if you choose Strength, your character starts with a maximum possible AC of THIRTEEN and no ability to don armor or carry a shield.
Maybe players should be encouraged to createtheir own character instead of conforming to your very narrow idea of what the Monk is - a class that is explicitly and intentionally based on Martial Arts pop culture depictions and has been since it was introduced in 1975 in the Blackmoor supplement as "Monks: Order of Monastic Martial Arts."
And with the explicit goal of removing Asian sterotypes from the Monk class, maybe WOTC should focus on removing the actual stereotype: the Asian mysticism element that has pervaded depictions of martial arts in the west since the Victorian period. Because martial arts is not only core to the identity of the class, but martial arts disciplines are found all over the world while the mystic martial artist is almost entirely exclusive to Asian pop culture.
martial arts are fight preparation in a deliberate and practiced manner. talent and inner strength are nice, but not the end of the path. there might be a school, a lone teacher, or a scroll of techniques. maybe one does mundane chores until muscle memory proves out. all this could easily describe a fighter. the "i'll make a man out of you" montage in mulan is an army training to fight. they're not training them to seek the focus within them to accomplish super-human feats any more than a more western example of an army chaplain is teaching soldiers how to turn undead and smite. fighters are "perhaps the most diverse class of characters in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons," so if they're fighting and they're mundane then they're probably fundamentally fighters.
5e says monks are more mystical than base fighters. well, since we're playing 5e that's what we have to work with. no one's encouraging you not to create the character you have in mind, just helping you classify it more accurately. the reason monk is a full class and not a subclass of fighter is because there's a lot to explore down this more mystical path. if your strong guy wearing several belts and holding up choppy-hands is good enough at punches and grapples to call it an art, that's great. is he a monk? maybe not. are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
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Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate).
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
a monk(martial artist) is not defined archetype wise by being weak physically. Monk is defined by their way of pursuing the mind body connection through training to increase their ability to harness ki. They could be skinny or they could be massive. Kenshiro from fist of the North star is a monk, so is old father. Ryu is a monk. He was trained in seclusion by an old man. The design of having the OPTION to use str or dex for damage was good design. The problem is really defense can't use str or dex, (and wis is needed) and their balancing of their more active defense and offense is off.
A barbarian represents a wild natural talent that increases their ability through strong emotion. They aren't as highly trained, Or as focused on the perfection of their martial art.
A fighter is a person who lives for war and battle, they use whatever is most effective, the goal is victory. Guts from berserk.
Ryu doesnt seek to kill, doesnt seek war, or even care much about victory is more about the philosophical pursuit of martial arts/development of self than winning. He actively resists strong emotion. He is basically a textbook monk.
" flow of ordinary life, where time seems to stand still. The monks who live there seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training. Many entered the monastery as children, sent to live there when their parents died, when food couldn’t be found to support them, or in return for some kindness that the monks had performed for their families.
For a monk, becoming an adventurer means leaving a structured, communal lifestyle to become a wanderer. This can be a harsh transition, and monks don’t undertake it lightly. Those who leave their cloisters take their work seriously, approaching their adventures as personal tests of their physical and spiritual growth. As a rule, monks care little for material wealth and are driven by a desire to accomplish a greater mission than merely slaying monsters and plundering their treasure."
monk archetype wise is not defined by being dex or str based.
I agree monk should be able to be strong or dexterous. They train physically. it could go either way, but your other points in this post have nothing to do with that.
The concept of martial artist and mysticism is not just an Asian thing.
And regardless, Dnd class design is not about mechanics, its about ideas. A monk represents the fantasy of the training of mind and body that let's you surpass physical limitations. The person for whom the training of the body and mind is the art, and goal in and of itself.
you can flavor that however you want, or have your character actively go against the general values of the class, but the mechanics and lore are designed to serve that fantasy.
just like a paladin could break its oath, or have a bad relationship with its god. The class is still designed with a holy knight as its base concept.
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points. 2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points. 2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
it's not 'magic' in the same sense as spells. Its purposefully kind of vague and open to interpretation.
Also resource cost in exchange for power is not actually how dnd is designed. Resource cost is mostly for internal design purposes. Monk is the perfect example, step of the wind and cunning action dash was the same exact mechanic, but one has a cost and the other doesnt. Extra attacks features and items are how melee scales, but spells scale via resource.
the resource based design is more about how they want that class to 'feel' and interact with the adventuring day. Its also about what type of decisions they want a class to make. They said the generally balance fights assuming players have their resources, but doable if they are low.
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points. 2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
it's not 'magic' in the same sense as spells. Its purposefully kind of vague and open to interpretation.
Also resource cost in exchange for power is not actually how dnd is designed. Resource cost is mostly for internal design purposes. Monk is the perfect example, step of the wind and cunning action dash was the same exact mechanic, but one has a cost and the other doesnt. Extra attacks features and items are how melee scales, but spells scale via resource.
the resource based design is more about how they want that class to 'feel' and interact with the adventuring day. Its also about what type of decisions they want a class to make. They said the generally balance fights assuming players have their resources, but doable if they are low.
First in 5e ki is definitely magic. Say so in the PHB
The Magic of Ki
Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies’ physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes.
Second I stated that their resource cost wasn’t properly balanced, but if you actually look at the games best classes they all have a resource mechanic. Even the best fighter is the one with a resource mechanic.
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points. 2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
The monk could easily be compared to a Jedi, or a psionic, the chosen one in the Matrix, etc.... There are not only the WUXIA fighters of Chinese legends. But what is to be kept in mind is that the monk is not an ordinary warrior, it is a warrior with supernatural abilities.
I think a good replacement for ki points, are force points. (kind of like star wars)
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points. 2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
The monk could easily be compared to a Jedi, or a psionic, the chosen one in the Matrix, etc.... There are not only the WUXIA fighters of Chinese legends. But what is to be kept in mind is that the monk is not an ordinary warrior, it is a warrior with supernatural abilities.
I think a good replacement for ki points, are force points. (kind of like star wars)
if the street fighter reference is still warm, i'd like to put in a requisition for a "dhalsim" character monk subclass reskinned to the tune of psionics: adrenaline control, immovability, stretchy arm attacks, and summon/control fire.
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if the street fighter reference is still warm, i'd like to put in a requisition for a "dhalsim" character monk subclass reskinned to the tune of psionics: adrenaline control, immovability, stretchy arm attacks, and summon/control fire.
I'm curious... how do you map stretchy arm attacks to psionics? Not saying it's wrong, I'm just wondering about the thought process to get here from there. :)
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In this UA, I guess those 4 attacks are coming from the whole "draw/stow your weapon as part of the attack", which involves having at least 3 weapons on yourself (1 for PAM and 2 for Nick), right? Well, monks also get 4 attacks at level 5 and can even get a 5th one with just the Nick weapons alone and 1 DP. Granted only Hand or Shadow would do this (since Elements is most likely hitting from range), but since it's possible for the base class, then every other subclass would be able to do it (Kensei and Mercy are the ones I look forward to see how this affects them). I'm not disagreeing though, I know monks don't get offensive features after level 5 (aside from the MA die increase), they get more defensive features that some people don't like cause they come "too late" (other classes would kill to get Diamond Soul once saving throws get more dangerous than attack rolls), but the subclasses are there to drive your offensive as well.
Stunning Strike was probably limited to once per turn to teach players a lesson: 'Don't burn all your DP on 1 turn trying to Stun a creature!' Even as a Wis-based monk, I only try SS on the first attack that hits (basically the only way the new SS is meant to be used), and if it didn't land, then move forward with other options; using 5 ki points to use it 4 times is the youtuber's typical depiction of "the only thing a monk can do". I don't have a good explanation for the duration though, that affects the monk player exclusively, but well, maybe WoTC wants to get rid of SS by disencouraging its usage?
The MAD problem (which includes the AC) is only an issue with Hand (and surely, you are correct here), but Shadow and Elements are not really in the same situation, they can make do with a +2 Wis and allocate the ASIs however they want.
After looking at videos and reading everyone’s comments hear I believe the easiest ways to fix the monk without a full rework or adding a bunch of features is tweaking a few base monks features.
1st Unarmored Defense- 10+Dex+Wis+1/2 proficiency bonus.
1st Martial Arts- Can use Dex instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons, Grapple DCs, and Shove DCs. 1d6 MA die improves based on MA table. One additional Unarmed Strike can be made as part of the same attack action. You can have 1 Dedicated Weapon it can be any melee weapon that you are proficient that lacks heavy property with. That Dedicated Weapon can use Dex instead of Str and your MA die. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest.
2nd Martial Discipline/Ki- 2 points and 1 point for each level gained in Monk. FOB is just one attack as a bonus action, but can be a weapon attack with a dedicated weapon or Unarmed Strike (the other Unarmed Strike is part of your Action see above). Patient Defense is Dodge as a bonus action, but if you are hit with any attack rolls from hostile creatures before your next turn you regain 1 DP/KP at the start of your next turn. SotW is Dash and Disengage as same bonus action and jump distance is doubled for the turn.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed and can disengage as a bonus action while not wearing armor or using a shield. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Deflect Missiles- Reaction Reduces ranged attack 1d10+Dex or Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 can spend 1DP to make a throw attack.
4th- Acrobatic Movement- While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you have resistance to any damage you would receive as a result of falling. Additionally you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Stunning Strike- Once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can spend 1DP to attempt to stun the target they must make a Con Save DC 8+PB+Wis. On failure they are Stunned until the start of your next turn, on a success they are Dazed until the end of the current turn.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- You may spend an action to remove the charmed or frighten condition from yourself. Additionally if you spend 1 minute meditating you may restore all expended Discipline points. You may only restore discipline points in this way once and regain the ability to do so again when you complete a long rest.
9th Slow Fall- Using your reaction you can reduce fall damage by up to 5 times your Monk level.
10th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
13th Deflect Energy- no change
14th Diamond Soul- I prefer this name more than disciplined survivor, but they both function the same.
15th Perfect Discipline- When you roll initiative you gain temporary 4 discipline points. These discipline points vanish at the end of the encounter if they they aren’t expended. Additionally you no longer require food or water.
18th Empty Body- As a bonus action you may spend 4 discipline points gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. During this time you may use Patient Defense without expending a DP.
20th Defy Death- If you drop to 0 Hit Points, you can spend 4 Discipline Points, roll four Martial Arts dice, and add the dice together. Your number of Hit Points instead changes to the total rolled + Wis. Each time you use this feature after the first, the Discipline Point cost increases by 2. When you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, the Discipline Point cost resets to 4.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique- One your turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike you may also impose one of these effects on the target.
6th Wholeness of Body- no change
11th Fleet Feet- You can use SotW without Expending a DP. Additionally while SotW is active, if you move 10ft in a straight line before you hit a target with an Unarmed Strike they take additional damage equal to 1d4 per 5ft travelled in a straight line. Max proficiency bonus d4s.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the target must make a Constitution saving throw, gaining the Unconscious condition for 1 minute or until they take damage from another source, or until another creature uses its action to shake them awake, they take 12d12 + your Monk level of Force, Necrotic or Thunder damage (your choice when you use the action to cause damage) on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one and don’t fall unconscious. Each day after the vibrations have started 1d12 will deal maximum damage instead of rolling it. After 12 days the length of time a creature is unconscious on a failed save increases by 1 hour each day, damage won’t wake them and they can’t be shaken awake.
You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
6th Shadow Step- no change
11th Improved Shadow Step- You can draw on your connection to shadow to empower your teleportation. When you use your Shadow Step, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to remove the requirement that you must start and end in Dim Light or Darkness for that use of the feature. As part of this Bonus Action, you can make an Unarmed Strike immediately after the teleportation. This strike deals extra cold or necrotic damage (your choice) equal to 1 MA die.
17th Cloak of Shadows- As a Bonus Action while entirely within Dim Light or Darkness, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to shroud yourself with magical darkness for 1 minute, until you have the Incapacitated condition, or until you end your turn in Bright Light. While shrouded in darkness, you gain the following benefits:
monks can get another attack, but its effectivenes becomes pretty similar to not using it Because they have to use a d4 to proc nick, and a d6 is the highest light weapon they can access. by the time its a d10, its like a .5 difference.
By level 5 its a difference of like 1.5 per round. However, fighters can get twf, enhanced crit rate, barbarians can add rage dmg, and brutal crit with reckless adds 1-2 damage per hit. Some subclasses don't need this pattern to do good damage, but its available to them. paladin has concentration buffs per hit, and eventually get d8 per hit. So, mathematically its not a big dif for monks, but a huge dif for others.
the current monk design has them seeming really strong early, falling behind at 5+, and bodied by 11
Its the opposite actually you underselling the problem insures fixes are less likely.
An alternate fix:
1st Unarmored Defense- 10+Dex+Wis
1st Martial Arts - You can use Dex or Wis instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, or attacks with your Dedicated Weapon, which is one weapon you are proficient with that lacks the heavy property. These attacks deal damage equal to your MA die which is 1d6 & increases according to the Monk table. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest. When you take the Attack action, you can make one additional Unarmed Strike as part of that action.
2nd Martial Discipline. When you take the Attack action on your turn and you are not wearing armour or using a shield you can use a bonus action to do one of the following:
Patient Defense - take the Dodge action
Flurry of Blows - make one unarmed strike
Technique - you can apply one weapon mastery of your choice to each of your unarmed strikes or attacks with your dedicated weapon until the end of your turn.
Step of the Wind - you jump horizontally up to a distance equal to your movement speed, or vertically half this distance, without provoking attacks of opportunity.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Slow fall - While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.
4th- Acrobatic Movement - You can move through enemies as if they were difficult terrain, and can move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during your move.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Deflect Attack - Reaction when targeted by an attack, you reduce the damage by 1d10+Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 you can deal damage to the attacker equal to one roll of your MA die plus your Wis of the same type as dealt by the original attack.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Staggering Strike - when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can throw them off balance, the target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against your ki DC or become staggered until the end of its next turn. A staggered creature can't take reactions, attacks against them are made at advantage and they make attacks at disadvantage and they make Strength and Dexterity saving throws at disadvantage. You can use this ability only once per turn.
7th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- If you start your turn frightened or charmed, these conditions end on you immediately (no action required).
9th Tongue of the Sun and Moon - you can speak, read, and write all languages. When you make a Charisma check you add your Wisdom modifier to the roll.
10th Diamond Soul- you gain proficiency in all saving throws
11th Riposte - whenever you use your Deflect Attack, you can make one unarmed strike as part of the same reaction.
13th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
14th Empty Body - you can use your action to become invisible for 1 minute or cast Astral Projection only on yourself. You can use this ability once, and regain the ability to use it when you finish a short or long rest.
15th Mystic Flight - you can use a bonus action to give yourself a flying speed equal to your walking speed until the end of your turn. If you are still aloft at the end of your turn you fall.
18th Empty Body - As a bonus action you gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier, regaining all uses when you finish a long rest.
20th Defy Death - If you drop to 0 Hit Points, make a Wisdom saving throw. The DC starts at 10 and increases by 5 each time this ability is triggered. On a success you remain at 1 hit point. The DC resets to 10 when you finish a short or long rest.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique - When you use your Martial Discipline feature you can choose two different options instead of one.
6th Wholeness of Body - as an action you can restore yourself to your maximum hp. Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
11th you can cast Sanctuary targeting yourself. You can cast this spell a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier and regain all uses when you finish a long rest.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. When you use this action, the target takes 12d12+your Monk level Force damage, and must make a Constitution saving throw, on a failure the target is paralyzed until they take any damage, on a success they are immune to your quivering palm for 24 hours. You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
6th Shadow Step - no change
11th Improved Shadow Step - You can Shadow Step even if your destination is not in Dim Light or Darkness, as part of this bonus action you can either take the Hide action or make one unarmed strike immediately after the teleportation.
17th Cloak of Shadows- Your Shadow Arts no longer require your concentration. In addition, when you hit a creature that cannot see you with a weapon attack or unarmed strike you deal an additional 2d6 necrotic damage to them.
I am convinced that the monk class is too full of features and has become exceedingly complicated. It needs drastic changes that allow it to be more practical and less vague in its evolution as a class. The monk is a big problem because it tries to be a hybrid of weapons and unarmed strikes. Now even more so with the coming of Weapon Mastery. Because it is clear as day that it does not work with unarmed strikes. I think you should capture the essence of the monk class and the points where it differs from the others are : unarmed strikes, movement speed and inner energy. I think one should start from here. Then eliminate the superfluous and optimize so as not to create abominations to which its path is not even defined. And I think that's also what WotC is trying in that way, although in a totally unacceptable way.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate). To suggest that this was not exactly the sort of character that was envisioned by the creators of the martial arts Monk in current and previous D&D editions would be very difficult.
You talk about characters needing to fill an archetype and that's fine. But classes like the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Warlock and Cleric all demonstrate that a class can fulfill multiple archetypes mechanically by focusing on different elements of their class features and character attributes. The Monk is so focused right now on "unarmed and unarmored combat" that it can't even do those two things well because there's no flexibility in how players can react to changing encounters. If encounters aren't designed to make use of a fast moving melee combatant with middling DPR in some capacity, then all you have is a very speedy punching bag that's designed to soak up damage that would otherwise be going towards the casters and the nova martials. But unlike other classes said punching bag can't take a good hit nor can it maintain higher output.
Mechanically, what could be done to allow the Monk greater flexibility? I see three easy fixes:
1: Monks gain extra ASIs and Feats to emulate their focus on achieving mental, physical and spiritual perfection.
2: Monks regain their class resource in such a way that it does not require the rest of the party to wait for them, such as by taking an action or accepting a momentary negative consequence (disadvantage on Initiative, stand still for a turn without making any attack or damage rolls etc).
3: Mandatory class feature requirements (no armor, no shields, must be armed or unarmed etc) are made optional with only portions of the related features occurring but full capability being restored if you meet all of the criteria.
"Not a Monk, he clearly didn't dump Strength. Must be a Barbarian."
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
This is the first paragraph describing the Monk in the PHB:
Can someone please tell me where the words "martial artist" appear there? or "street fighter" or "brawler" or anything else describing them as a mundane fighter who uses physical strength to fight?
The first subsection of the Monk class is titled: "The Magic of Ki" - doesn't sound like Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee... or a UFC fighter or a Sumo wrestler.. or any mundane martial artist.
Indeed the ONLY place in the class where martial arts is stated at all is in the class feature and die of that name. Martial artist is never mentioned. Spirituality is always mentioned along side physical training...
Or, and hear me out: maybe the reason he isn't a roided up barbarian is because physical strength training is more likely to make you look like a sumo wrestler than Arnold Schwarzeneggar?
I didn't say anything about 20 Str 20 Con 8 Dex. I said maybe for a class that is explicitly given the option of using Dexterity OR STRENGTH for its combat actions maybe the player should be allowed to choose their combat attribute without making their character useless? Because right now if you choose Strength, your character starts with a maximum possible AC of THIRTEEN and no ability to don armor or carry a shield.
Maybe players should be encouraged to create their own character instead of conforming to your very narrow idea of what the Monk is - a class that is explicitly and intentionally based on Martial Arts pop culture depictions and has been since it was introduced in 1975 in the Blackmoor supplement as "Monks: Order of Monastic Martial Arts."
And with the explicit goal of removing Asian sterotypes from the Monk class, maybe WOTC should focus on removing the actual stereotype: the Asian mysticism element that has pervaded depictions of martial arts in the west since the Victorian period. Because martial arts is not only core to the identity of the class, but martial arts disciplines are found all over the world while the mystic martial artist is almost entirely exclusive to Asian pop culture.
martial arts are fight preparation in a deliberate and practiced manner. talent and inner strength are nice, but not the end of the path. there might be a school, a lone teacher, or a scroll of techniques. maybe one does mundane chores until muscle memory proves out. all this could easily describe a fighter. the "i'll make a man out of you" montage in mulan is an army training to fight. they're not training them to seek the focus within them to accomplish super-human feats any more than a more western example of an army chaplain is teaching soldiers how to turn undead and smite. fighters are "perhaps the most diverse class of characters in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons," so if they're fighting and they're mundane then they're probably fundamentally fighters.
5e says monks are more mystical than base fighters. well, since we're playing 5e that's what we have to work with. no one's encouraging you not to create the character you have in mind, just helping you classify it more accurately. the reason monk is a full class and not a subclass of fighter is because there's a lot to explore down this more mystical path. if your strong guy wearing several belts and holding up choppy-hands is good enough at punches and grapples to call it an art, that's great. is he a monk? maybe not. are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
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a monk(martial artist) is not defined archetype wise by being weak physically. Monk is defined by their way of pursuing the mind body connection through training to increase their ability to harness ki. They could be skinny or they could be massive. Kenshiro from fist of the North star is a monk, so is old father. Ryu is a monk. He was trained in seclusion by an old man. The design of having the OPTION to use str or dex for damage was good design. The problem is really defense can't use str or dex, (and wis is needed) and their balancing of their more active defense and offense is off.
A barbarian represents a wild natural talent that increases their ability through strong emotion. They aren't as highly trained, Or as focused on the perfection of their martial art.
A fighter is a person who lives for war and battle, they use whatever is most effective, the goal is victory. Guts from berserk.
Ryu doesnt seek to kill, doesnt seek war, or even care much about victory is more about the philosophical pursuit of martial arts/development of self than winning. He actively resists strong emotion. He is basically a textbook monk.
" flow of ordinary life, where time seems to stand still. The monks who live there seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training. Many entered the monastery as children, sent to live there when their parents died, when food couldn’t be found to support them, or in return for some kindness that the monks had performed for their families.
For a monk, becoming an adventurer means leaving a structured, communal lifestyle to become a wanderer. This can be a harsh transition, and monks don’t undertake it lightly. Those who leave their cloisters take their work seriously, approaching their adventures as personal tests of their physical and spiritual growth. As a rule, monks care little for material wealth and are driven by a desire to accomplish a greater mission than merely slaying monsters and plundering their treasure."
monk archetype wise is not defined by being dex or str based.
I agree monk should be able to be strong or dexterous. They train physically. it could go either way, but your other points in this post have nothing to do with that.
The concept of martial artist and mysticism is not just an Asian thing.
And regardless, Dnd class design is not about mechanics, its about ideas. A monk represents the fantasy of the training of mind and body that let's you surpass physical limitations. The person for whom the training of the body and mind is the art, and goal in and of itself.
you can flavor that however you want, or have your character actively go against the general values of the class, but the mechanics and lore are designed to serve that fantasy.
just like a paladin could break its oath, or have a bad relationship with its god. The class is still designed with a holy knight as its base concept.
1. While the 5eR goal is to move away from Monks being only Asian inspired mystic warriors, they must maintain the ability to also be Asian inspired mystic warriors. If the redesign makes it impossible to create that kind of character it would be a failure. It seems they are seeking a design that could represent both a mystic warrior and a super skilled fighter. I think it is a mistake and it is better to take the Asian inspiration and make it more generic and open to in world inspiration. 5e Monks are technically already using a different version of magic and WotC should lean into that instead of trying to replace ki (which is clearly magical with discipline which could not be magical). I think they should just call it Magic points and fully accept what it is. Monks channel magic through training body and mind. They don’t focus their magical energy into pools like spellcasters. They instead allow it to flow naturally through there body. The pools of magic spellcasters use are spellslots. Monks instead can call upon the free flowing magic in their body, Magic Points.
2. Any version of the Monk that attempts to get rid of their resource Ki/DP without replacing it with something else will eventually lead to the class being weaker. Monks are a weak class because their resource cost vs power gained wasn’t properly balanced. If you take away the resource cost the monk will lose the majority of its abilities or they will be replaced with weaker versions. In 6e I would like Monks to just be half casters, but for 5eR they need to have Ki/DP/MP or something similar.
it's not 'magic' in the same sense as spells. Its purposefully kind of vague and open to interpretation.
Also resource cost in exchange for power is not actually how dnd is designed. Resource cost is mostly for internal design purposes. Monk is the perfect example, step of the wind and cunning action dash was the same exact mechanic, but one has a cost and the other doesnt. Extra attacks features and items are how melee scales, but spells scale via resource.
the resource based design is more about how they want that class to 'feel' and interact with the adventuring day. Its also about what type of decisions they want a class to make. They said the generally balance fights assuming players have their resources, but doable if they are low.
First in 5e ki is definitely magic. Say so in the PHB
The Magic of Ki
Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki. This energy is an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies. Monks harness this power within themselves to create magical effects and exceed their bodies’ physical capabilities, and some of their special attacks can hinder the flow of ki in their opponents. Using this energy, monks channel uncanny speed and strength into their unarmed strikes. As they gain experience, their martial training and their mastery of ki gives them more power over their bodies and the bodies of their foes.
Second I stated that their resource cost wasn’t properly balanced, but if you actually look at the games best classes they all have a resource mechanic. Even the best fighter is the one with a resource mechanic.
The monk could easily be compared to a Jedi, or a psionic, the chosen one in the Matrix, etc.... There are not only the WUXIA fighters of Chinese legends. But what is to be kept in mind is that the monk is not an ordinary warrior, it is a warrior with supernatural abilities.
I think a good replacement for ki points, are force points. (kind of like star wars)
if the street fighter reference is still warm, i'd like to put in a requisition for a "dhalsim" character monk subclass reskinned to the tune of psionics: adrenaline control, immovability, stretchy arm attacks, and summon/control fire.
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I'm curious... how do you map stretchy arm attacks to psionics? Not saying it's wrong, I'm just wondering about the thought process to get here from there. :)