if the street fighter reference is still warm, i'd like to put in a requisition for a "dhalsim" character monk subclass reskinned to the tune of psionics: adrenaline control, immovability, stretchy arm attacks, and summon/control fire.
I'm curious... how do you map stretchy arm attacks to psionics? Not saying it's wrong, I'm just wondering about the thought process to get here from there. :)
The Astral monk (which is oriented around psionics, IIRC) gets reach with their unarmed strikes.
if the street fighter reference is still warm, i'd like to put in a requisition for a "dhalsim" character monk subclass reskinned to the tune of psionics: adrenaline control, immovability, stretchy arm attacks, and summon/control fire.
I'm curious... how do you map stretchy arm attacks to psionics? Not saying it's wrong, I'm just wondering about the thought process to get here from there. :)
Astral monk kind of does it already. Though in 2e/3e psionics included body manipulation. Man I would love a 3e style psion back. The metacrative school was so cool, astral constructs forever. Which by the way wouldn't have been a bad template model for wild shape though for a druid unnatural creatures feels weird outside of a subclass perk.
After looking at videos and reading everyone’s comments hear I believe the easiest ways to fix the monk without a full rework or adding a bunch of features is tweaking a few base monks features.
1st Martial Arts- Can use Dex instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons, Grapple DCs, and Shove DCs. 1d6 MA die improves based on MA table. One additional Unarmed Strike can be made as part of the same attack action. You can have 1 Dedicated Weapon it can be any melee weapon that you are proficient that lacks heavy property with. That Dedicated Weapon can use Dex instead of Str and your MA die. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest.
2nd Martial Discipline/Ki- 2 points and 1 point for each level gained in Monk. FOB is just one attack as a bonus action, but can be a weapon attack with a dedicated weapon or Unarmed Strike (the other Unarmed Strike is part of your Action see above). Patient Defense is Dodge as a bonus action, but if you are hit with any attack rolls from hostile creatures before your next turn you regain 1 DP/KP at the start of your next turn. SotW is Dash and Disengage as same bonus action and jump distance is doubled for the turn.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed and can disengage as a bonus action while not wearing armor or using a shield. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Deflect Missiles- Reaction Reduces ranged attack 1d10+Dex or Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 can spend 1DP to make a throw attack.
4th- Acrobatic Movement- While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you have resistance to any damage you would receive as a result of falling. Additionally you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Stunning Strike- Once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can spend 1DP to attempt to stun the target they must make a Con Save DC 8+PB+Wis. On failure they are Stunned until the start of your next turn, on a success they are Dazed until the end of the current turn.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- You may spend an action to remove the charmed or frighten condition from yourself. Additionally if you spend 1 minute meditating you may restore all expended Discipline points. You may only restore discipline points in this way once and regain the ability to do so again when you complete a long rest.
9th Slow Fall- Using your reaction you can reduce fall damage by up to 5 times your Monk level.
10th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
13th Deflect Energy- no change
14th Diamond Soul- I prefer this name more than disciplined survivor, but they both function the same.
15th Perfect Discipline- When you roll initiative you gain temporary 4 discipline points. These discipline points vanish at the end of the encounter if they they aren’t expended. Additionally you no longer require food or water.
18th Empty Body- As a bonus action you may spend 4 discipline points gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. During this time you may use Patient Defense without expending a DP.
20th Defy Death- If you drop to 0 Hit Points, you can spend 4 Discipline Points, roll four Martial Arts dice, and add the dice together. Your number of Hit Points instead changes to the total rolled + Wis. Each time you use this feature after the first, the Discipline Point cost increases by 2. When you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, the Discipline Point cost resets to 4.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique- One your turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike you may also impose one of these effects on the target.
Addle. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or it can’t take Reactions until the end of your next turn.
Push. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to 15 feet away from yourself.
Topple. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
6th Wholeness of Body- no change
11th Fleet Feet- You can use SotW without Expending a DP. Additionally while SotW is active, if you move 10ft in a straight line before you hit a target with an Unarmed Strike they take additional damage equal to 1d4 per 5ft travelled in a straight line. Max proficiency bonus d4s.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the target must make a Constitution saving throw, gaining the Unconscious condition for 1 minute or until they take damage from another source, or until another creature uses its action to shake them awake, they take 12d12 + your Monk level of Force, Necrotic or Thunder damage (your choice when you use the action to cause damage) on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one and don’t fall unconscious. Each day after the vibrations have started 1d12 will deal maximum damage instead of rolling it. After 12 days the length of time a creature is unconscious on a failed save increases by 1 hour each day, damage won’t wake them and they can’t be shaken awake. You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
Darkness. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to cast the Darkness spell without any spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature. While the spell persists, you can move its area of darkness to a space within 60 feet of you at the start of each of your turns.
Darkvision. You gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range increases by 60 feet.
Shadowy Figments. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip and use Wisdom as the spellcasting ability for it
Shadowy Stealth. You can spend 2 Discipline Points to cast Pass Without a Trace or Silence without any spell components.
6th Shadow Step- no change
11th Improved Shadow Step- You can draw on your connection to shadow to empower your teleportation. When you use your Shadow Step, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to remove the requirement that you must start and end in Dim Light or Darkness for that use of the feature. As part of this Bonus Action, you can make an Unarmed Strike immediately after the teleportation. This strike deals extra cold or necrotic damage (your choice) equal to 1 MA die.
17th Cloak of Shadows- As a Bonus Action while entirely within Dim Light or Darkness, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to shroud yourself with magical darkness for 1 minute, until you have the Incapacitated condition, or until you end your turn in Bright Light. While shrouded in darkness, you gain the following benefits:
Invisibility. You have the Invisible condition.
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but you take 1d10 Force damage if you end your turn inside a creature or an object.
Shadow Flurry. You can use your Flurry of Blows without spending any Discipline Points.
Shadow Strikes. Your Unarmed Strikes deal an additional 1d4 necrotic or cold damage (your choice)
This is great. Thanks for doing this. It will be interesting to compare this list to the final printed version. Unfortunately i am not getting my hopes up.
yes, its not magic in the sense that spells are which are based on the weave. its the "magic" of living creatures.
Magic is magic and a well trained pugilist, boxer, or martial artist isn’t using magic. The monk class is magical at its core. Even if you remove the necessity of asian inspiration, removing the magic from the class removes its identity. A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style. Maybe a fighter subclass that gains unarmored defense of some kind is needed or just a 1 level dip in Barbarian. I’m just suggesting the easiest method of removing the necessity of asian inspiration, while still allowing asian inspiration for individuals who want it is to just call it magic. Magic doesn’t only mean spells.
Magic is magic and a well trained pugilist, boxer, or martial artist isn’t using magic. The monk class is magical at its core. Even if you remove the necessity of asian inspiration, removing the magic from the class removes its identity.
This is just a matter of theming; they're already renaming Ki to Discipline in the playtest, which makes the abilities more ambiguous about how the skills actually function. It's always been possible to play a Monk as "just" a martial artist depending upon the sub-class you choose, as clearly some are more magical than others.
Drunken Master, Kensai and Open Hand for example are the least mechanically magical as they don't have much in the way of proper "powers" compared to Astral Self, Four Elements etc.
A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
If the issue is still wether Monks should be better able to support Strength builds then I'm in favour of doing it, as it's not like doing so will suddenly make them Fighters; aside from Extra Attack both classes function very differently.
There's also the fact that you currently can build a Strength-based Monk, but only by using the Tortle race; while that very much supports the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles demographic, what about the rest of us who'd like to play another race and still play a Monk that doesn't have limp noodle arms?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
After looking at videos and reading everyone’s comments hear I believe the easiest ways to fix the monk without a full rework or adding a bunch of features is tweaking a few base monks features.
1st Martial Arts- Can use Dex instead of Str for Unarmed Strikes, Simple Weapons, Grapple DCs, and Shove DCs. 1d6 MA die improves based on MA table. One additional Unarmed Strike can be made as part of the same attack action. You can have 1 Dedicated Weapon it can be any melee weapon that you are proficient that lacks heavy property with. That Dedicated Weapon can use Dex instead of Str and your MA die. You may change your dedicated weapon when you complete a long rest.
2nd Martial Discipline/Ki- 2 points and 1 point for each level gained in Monk. FOB is just one attack as a bonus action, but can be a weapon attack with a dedicated weapon or Unarmed Strike (the other Unarmed Strike is part of your Action see above). Patient Defense is Dodge as a bonus action, but if you are hit with any attack rolls from hostile creatures before your next turn you regain 1 DP/KP at the start of your next turn. SotW is Dash and Disengage as same bonus action and jump distance is doubled for the turn.
2nd Unarmored Movement- You gain 10 movement speed and can disengage as a bonus action while not wearing armor or using a shield. Increases with level based on monk table.
3rd Deflect Missiles- Reaction Reduces ranged attack 1d10+Dex or Wis+ Monk level damage if reduced to 0 can spend 1DP to make a throw attack.
4th- Acrobatic Movement- While you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield, you have resistance to any damage you would receive as a result of falling. Additionally you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the movement.
5th Extra Attack-no change
5th Stunning Strike- Once per turn when you hit with a melee attack you can spend 1DP to attempt to stun the target they must make a Con Save DC 8+PB+Wis. On failure they are Stunned until the start of your next turn, on a success they are Dazed until the end of the current turn.
6th Empowered Strikes- unarmed strikes or attacks with dedicated weapon can deal force damage instead of their normal damage type.
6th Evasion- no change
7th Heighten Discipline- You may spend an action to remove the charmed or frighten condition from yourself. Additionally if you spend 1 minute meditating you may restore all expended Discipline points. You may only restore discipline points in this way once and regain the ability to do so again when you complete a long rest.
9th Slow Fall- Using your reaction you can reduce fall damage by up to 5 times your Monk level.
10th Purity of Body- You have immunity to poison. Additionally you may add Wis to your Con checks and Saves.
13th Deflect Energy- no change
14th Diamond Soul- I prefer this name more than disciplined survivor, but they both function the same.
15th Perfect Discipline- When you roll initiative you gain temporary 4 discipline points. These discipline points vanish at the end of the encounter if they they aren’t expended. Additionally you no longer require food or water.
18th Empty Body- As a bonus action you may spend 4 discipline points gain resistance to all damage for 1 min. During this time you may use Patient Defense without expending a DP.
20th Defy Death- If you drop to 0 Hit Points, you can spend 4 Discipline Points, roll four Martial Arts dice, and add the dice together. Your number of Hit Points instead changes to the total rolled + Wis. Each time you use this feature after the first, the Discipline Point cost increases by 2. When you finish a Short Rest or Long Rest, the Discipline Point cost resets to 4.
Hand
3rd Open Hand Technique- One your turn when you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike you may also impose one of these effects on the target.
Addle. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or it can’t take Reactions until the end of your next turn.
Push. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to 15 feet away from yourself.
Topple. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
6th Wholeness of Body- no change
11th Fleet Feet- You can use SotW without Expending a DP. Additionally while SotW is active, if you move 10ft in a straight line before you hit a target with an Unarmed Strike they take additional damage equal to 1d4 per 5ft travelled in a straight line. Max proficiency bonus d4s.
17th Quivering Palm- You gain the ability to set up lethal vibrations in someone’s body. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to start these imperceptible vibrations, which last for a number of days equal to your Monk level. The vibrations are harmless unless you use your action to end them. To do so, you and the target must be on the same plane of existence. When you use this action, the target must make a Constitution saving throw, gaining the Unconscious condition for 1 minute or until they take damage from another source, or until another creature uses its action to shake them awake, they take 12d12 + your Monk level of Force, Necrotic or Thunder damage (your choice when you use the action to cause damage) on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one and don’t fall unconscious. Each day after the vibrations have started 1d12 will deal maximum damage instead of rolling it. After 12 days the length of time a creature is unconscious on a failed save increases by 1 hour each day, damage won’t wake them and they can’t be shaken awake. You can have only one creature under the effect of this feature at a time. You can end the vibrations harmlessly without using an action.
Shadow
3rd Shadow Arts- Through rigorous training, you have learned to draw on the power of the Shadowfell, gaining the following benefits:
Darkness. You can spend 1 Discipline Point to cast the Darkness spell without any spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature. While the spell persists, you can move its area of darkness to a space within 60 feet of you at the start of each of your turns.
Darkvision. You gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range increases by 60 feet.
Shadowy Figments. You know the Minor Illusion cantrip and use Wisdom as the spellcasting ability for it
Shadowy Stealth. You can spend 2 Discipline Points to cast Pass Without a Trace or Silence without any spell components.
6th Shadow Step- no change
11th Improved Shadow Step- You can draw on your connection to shadow to empower your teleportation. When you use your Shadow Step, you can spend 1 Discipline Point to remove the requirement that you must start and end in Dim Light or Darkness for that use of the feature. As part of this Bonus Action, you can make an Unarmed Strike immediately after the teleportation. This strike deals extra cold or necrotic damage (your choice) equal to 1 MA die.
17th Cloak of Shadows- As a Bonus Action while entirely within Dim Light or Darkness, you can spend 3 Discipline Points to shroud yourself with magical darkness for 1 minute, until you have the Incapacitated condition, or until you end your turn in Bright Light. While shrouded in darkness, you gain the following benefits:
Invisibility. You have the Invisible condition.
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but you take 1d10 Force damage if you end your turn inside a creature or an object.
Shadow Flurry. You can use your Flurry of Blows without spending any Discipline Points.
Shadow Strikes. Your Unarmed Strikes deal an additional 1d4 necrotic or cold damage (your choice)
Although I would have liked WotC to do more with the monk I think your fixes are probably more in line with what WotC is willing to do.
I still think Hand’s Open Hand Technique should have no saves. Addle (before it was given that name) didn’t have one and Push and Topple are now weapon masteries that are just free, though Push WM is less distance. It’s nice that it isn’t contingent on using FOB but why is it more difficult than what anyone with WM can do? At minimum Push and Addles should be no save (Shocking Grasp doesn’t give a save to take away reactions. Unless that changes in the spells UA coming in the future)
Even though my idea of a monk goes against yours I still have to say it. As stated previously, in my opinion the monk is a warrior class with supernatural powers. Magic? Perhaps, but it could also be called life force or life energy. Kind of like The Force in Star Wars. And that is what distinguishes it from the magic of the other magical or semi-magical classes. Up to here I think almost everybody agrees with me.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Monk design fails everywhere, dated view of the character. The jumpy and wise guy. By how it uses stats, all them must be agile weaklings. Why this cannot be a monk?
Because he is clearly a Barbarian with Tavern Brawler / Unarmed fighting style instead. (Or possibly a Battlemaster with Unarmed Fighting style)
Classes are specific archetypes / concepts they aren't defined by a single way of fighting. There isn't an "Archer class" because there a dozens of ways to be an archer that are incompatible with each other. There isn't one "sword using" class because there are lots of ways to use a sword. Monk is not the "I punch things" class because there are lots of ways to punch things that are fundamentally incompatible with each other (and lots of monks use weapons). You can't both be STR+CON based and DEX+WIS based, both a dodgy skirmisher and a tough tank, both a wise skilled sage and a bull-headed fighting machine.
Ryu was created by video game design Takashi Nishiyama to be a very faithful representation of Karate master Masutatsu "Mas" Oyama, the founder of Kyokushin Karate (the most widely practiced form of full-contact competition Karate).
Yes indeed and that picture on the left is Mas Oyama, do they look like a STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20 character that uses raw strength to hit people and hurt them? Cause doesn't look like it to me. The designers 'roided him up for Street Fighter 2 an onwards to appeal to 14 year old boys and making him no longer a D&D monk, but a D&D Battlemaster.
Or, and hear me out: maybe the reason he isn't a roided up barbarian is because physical strength training is more likely to make you look like a sumo wrestler than Arnold Schwarzeneggar?
I didn't say anything about 20 Str 20 Con 8 Dex. I said maybe for a class that is explicitly given the option of using Dexterity OR STRENGTH for its combat actions maybe the player should be allowed to choose their combat attribute without making their character useless? Because right now if you choose Strength, your character starts with a maximum possible AC of THIRTEEN and no ability to don armor or carry a shield.
Maybe players should be encouraged to createtheir own character instead of conforming to your very narrow idea of what the Monk is - a class that is explicitly and intentionally based on Martial Arts pop culture depictions and has been since it was introduced in 1975 in the Blackmoor supplement as "Monks: Order of Monastic Martial Arts."
And with the explicit goal of removing Asian sterotypes from the Monk class, maybe WOTC should focus on removing the actual stereotype: the Asian mysticism element that has pervaded depictions of martial arts in the west since the Victorian period. Because martial arts is not only core to the identity of the class, but martial arts disciplines are found all over the world while the mystic martial artist is almost entirely exclusive to Asian pop culture.
martial arts are fight preparation in a deliberate and practiced manner. talent and inner strength are nice, but not the end of the path. there might be a school, a lone teacher, or a scroll of techniques. maybe one does mundane chores until muscle memory proves out. all this could easily describe a fighter. the "i'll make a man out of you" montage in mulan is an army training to fight. they're not training them to seek the focus within them to accomplish super-human feats any more than a more western example of an army chaplain is teaching soldiers how to turn undead and smite. fighters are "perhaps the most diverse class of characters in the worlds of Dungeons & Dragons," so if they're fighting and they're mundane then they're probably fundamentally fighters.
5e says monks are more mystical than base fighters. well, since we're playing 5e that's what we have to work with. no one's encouraging you not to create the character you have in mind, just helping you classify it more accurately. the reason monk is a full class and not a subclass of fighter is because there's a lot to explore down this more mystical path. if your strong guy wearing several belts and holding up choppy-hands is good enough at punches and grapples to call it an art, that's great. is he a monk? maybe not. are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
Even though my idea of a monk goes against yours I still have to say it. As stated previously, in my opinion the monk is a warrior class with supernatural powers. Magic? Perhaps, but it could also be called life force or life energy. Kind of like The Force in Star Wars. And that is what distinguishes it from the magic of the other magical or semi-magical classes. Up to here I think almost everybody agrees with me.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
Slow vs Fast Muscle Fibers || Red vs White Muscle Fibers || Types of Muscle Fiber: Type I, Type II
A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
They should definitely bring it back and make it a basic option in One D&D. I would also love to see Unarmoured Defence (DEX+CON) added to the Tough feat (or the Durable feat) and thus be available to anyone. But then I love my unarmoured characters, despite the community seeming to think not using armour is some how a major nerf that cripples your character.
PS Fighter works exactly the same as people want the monk to play, people are arguing for a monk with high AC, high HP that stands in melee and takes hits, while making many melee attacks themselves - which is exactly what a Fighter does. People don't want a hit-and-run play style or they wouldn't be obsessed with increasing monk AC and hp, people don't want a battle-field control monk or they would all be screaming about the nerfing of stunning strike rather than applauding it. They want a monk that plays the same as a fighter - has the same HP, AC, and DPR using unarmed strikes - but hits people with fists rather than weapons.
Magic is magic and a well trained pugilist, boxer, or martial artist isn’t using magic. The monk class is magical at its core. Even if you remove the necessity of asian inspiration, removing the magic from the class removes its identity.
This is just a matter of theming; they're already renaming Ki to Discipline in the playtest, which makes the abilities more ambiguous about how the skills actually function. It's always been possible to play a Monk as "just" a martial artist depending upon the sub-class you choose, as clearly some are more magical than others.
Drunken Master, Kensai and Open Hand for example are the least mechanically magical as they don't have much in the way of proper "powers" compared to Astral Self, Four Elements etc.
A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
If the issue is still wether Monks should be better able to support Strength builds then I'm in favour of doing it, as it's not like doing so will suddenly make them Fighters; aside from Extra Attack both classes function very differently.
There's also the fact that you currently can build a Strength-based Monk, but only by using the Tortle race; while that very much supports the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles demographic, what about the rest of us who'd like to play another race and still play a Monk that doesn't have limp noodle arms?
I just don’t see them making the changes to allow STR monk. Although I think it would be a nice option. I’ve wanted more from the monk but I don’t think WotC will do much, unfortunately. Even from the beginning people were referring to this update as 5.5E or even 5.25E.
Personally, if they wanted to get away from Asian influence etc I would be fine if they dumped the “monastic” theme and go all in on magic. Let the monk be the one that taps into the weave, or whatever magic is/comes from (I’m not much on lore) to fuel their abilities like SS, slowfall, elements features, shadow’s features, etc and name Ki/DP something else. Not much would have to change other than expanding on what the flavor text already provides.
While the unarmed fighting style wasn’t in the UAs they were meant (as the 2024 edition is supposedly meant) to be backward compatible to 5e including Tasha and Xanther so unarme fighting would still be a thing a fighter/ranger (monk c) could do.
yes, its not magic in the sense that spells are which are based on the weave. its the "magic" of living creatures.
Magic is magic and a well trained pugilist, boxer, or martial artist isn’t using magic. The monk class is magical at its core. Even if you remove the necessity of asian inspiration, removing the magic from the class removes its identity. A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style. Maybe a fighter subclass that gains unarmored defense of some kind is needed or just a 1 level dip in Barbarian. I’m just suggesting the easiest method of removing the necessity of asian inspiration, while still allowing asian inspiration for individuals who want it is to just call it magic. Magic doesn’t only mean spells.
All 'magic' is not the same. And I was never really disagreeing that the monk is about more than just being an MMA guy, there is a supernatural or mystic element. Also, real world many martial artists claim there is more to what they are doing than just being well trained. Even if a monk is not clearly using 'magic' they are still different from a fighter in their approach/source/mentality. Much the same way that a warlock and a wizard are both using magic, but the source and way they access that magic is an essential difference in the class.
Also, if you conceptualize the monk, and the wizard as doing the same thing, you will miss the fantasy, and concept of the martial artist. Someone who takes all magic in dnd as the same will be like, ok, monk casts meteor. No not really.
the description of 'ki' in the monk description is virtually the same as chi, chakra, and other metaphysical concepts in our world. In a world of magic, this would involve magic.
Also, the monk is not just about being supernatural. They are both mystics, AND Artists/Philosophers of physical combat. Some might lean more into one side than the other. A monk subclass could totally focus only on the physical side with various stances or forms that alter the properties of their attacks, and still be a monk.
...are Guile, Blanka, and Zangief all monks? seems like all they have in common is fighting.
yes they are monks.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
While the unarmed fighting style wasn’t in the UAs they were meant (as the 2024 edition is supposedly meant) to be backward compatible to 5e including Tasha and Xanther so unarme fighting would still be a thing a fighter/ranger (monk c) could do.
As of UA6 only paladin, Ranger, and fighter can have fighting styles. Though its a bit murky, because fighting initiate was in a different book.
A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
They should definitely bring it back and make it a basic option in One D&D. I would also love to see Unarmoured Defence (DEX+CON) added to the Tough feat (or the Durable feat) and thus be available to anyone. But then I love my unarmoured characters, despite the community seeming to think not using armour is some how a major nerf that cripples your character.
PS Fighter works exactly the same as people want the monk to play, people are arguing for a monk with high AC, high HP that stands in melee and takes hits, while making many melee attacks themselves - which is exactly what a Fighter does. People don't want a hit-and-run play style or they wouldn't be obsessed with increasing monk AC and hp, people don't want a battle-field control monk or they would all be screaming about the nerfing of stunning strike rather than applauding it. They want a monk that plays the same as a fighter - has the same HP, AC, and DPR using unarmed strikes - but hits people with fists rather than weapons.
I like the concept of an unarmored fighter, but execution of unarmed fighting for monk essentially weakens the class and its versatility.
I definitely would prefer the monk not to need armor, but it essentially ends up making monk's defense not scale well, and makes it almost impossible for monks to be good at physical things, and grapples, when conceptually as people who spend all their free time developing their mind and body, they would be very good at. The monk is bad at jumping, swimming, long distance travel? makes no sense.
Starting at the fourth level, a monk should get an ASI at every level and there should be feats (martial arts techniques) which have a prerequisite of three levels of monk. All other class abilities for the monk of 4th level and higher should be removed.
A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
They should definitely bring it back and make it a basic option in One D&D. I would also love to see Unarmoured Defence (DEX+CON) added to the Tough feat (or the Durable feat) and thus be available to anyone. But then I love my unarmoured characters, despite the community seeming to think not using armour is some how a major nerf that cripples your character.
PS Fighter works exactly the same as people want the monk to play, people are arguing for a monk with high AC, high HP that stands in melee and takes hits, while making many melee attacks themselves - which is exactly what a Fighter does. People don't want a hit-and-run play style or they wouldn't be obsessed with increasing monk AC and hp, people don't want a battle-field control monk or they would all be screaming about the nerfing of stunning strike rather than applauding it. They want a monk that plays the same as a fighter - has the same HP, AC, and DPR using unarmed strikes - but hits people with fists rather than weapons.
Effectively, that's what scares me. Because of this way of thinking they will simply end up making the monk a subclass of the fighter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The Astral monk (which is oriented around psionics, IIRC) gets reach with their unarmed strikes.
Astral monk kind of does it already. Though in 2e/3e psionics included body manipulation. Man I would love a 3e style psion back. The metacrative school was so cool, astral constructs forever. Which by the way wouldn't have been a bad template model for wild shape though for a druid unnatural creatures feels weird outside of a subclass perk.
This is great. Thanks for doing this. It will be interesting to compare this list to the final printed version. Unfortunately i am not getting my hopes up.
yes, its not magic in the sense that spells are which are based on the weave. its the "magic" of living creatures.
Magic is magic and a well trained pugilist, boxer, or martial artist isn’t using magic. The monk class is magical at its core. Even if you remove the necessity of asian inspiration, removing the magic from the class removes its identity. A bare knuckle fighter is easy to achieve thanks to the unarmed fighting style. Maybe a fighter subclass that gains unarmored defense of some kind is needed or just a 1 level dip in Barbarian. I’m just suggesting the easiest method of removing the necessity of asian inspiration, while still allowing asian inspiration for individuals who want it is to just call it magic. Magic doesn’t only mean spells.
This is just a matter of theming; they're already renaming Ki to Discipline in the playtest, which makes the abilities more ambiguous about how the skills actually function. It's always been possible to play a Monk as "just" a martial artist depending upon the sub-class you choose, as clearly some are more magical than others.
Drunken Master, Kensai and Open Hand for example are the least mechanically magical as they don't have much in the way of proper "powers" compared to Astral Self, Four Elements etc.
Isn't that absent from the playtests though? On that basis it won't be possible to play an unarmed fighter in OneD&D at least initially.
If the issue is still wether Monks should be better able to support Strength builds then I'm in favour of doing it, as it's not like doing so will suddenly make them Fighters; aside from Extra Attack both classes function very differently.
There's also the fact that you currently can build a Strength-based Monk, but only by using the Tortle race; while that very much supports the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles demographic, what about the rest of us who'd like to play another race and still play a Monk that doesn't have limp noodle arms?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Although I would have liked WotC to do more with the monk I think your fixes are probably more in line with what WotC is willing to do.
I still think Hand’s Open Hand Technique should have no saves. Addle (before it was given that name) didn’t have one and Push and Topple are now weapon masteries that are just free, though Push WM is less distance. It’s nice that it isn’t contingent on using FOB but why is it more difficult than what anyone with WM can do? At minimum Push and Addles should be no save (Shocking Grasp doesn’t give a save to take away reactions. Unless that changes in the spells UA coming in the future)
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Even though my idea of a monk goes against yours I still have to say it. As stated previously, in my opinion the monk is a warrior class with supernatural powers. Magic? Perhaps, but it could also be called life force or life energy. Kind of like The Force in Star Wars. And that is what distinguishes it from the magic of the other magical or semi-magical classes. Up to here I think almost everybody agrees with me.
Going on the subject of martial arts. These were developed anciently so that a physically inferior person could still fight against someone physically superior. Because someone already strong does not need to develop fighting techniques if they are already strong in themselves, but the weak person does. This is different for those who fight in war, but in this case they are fighters. This led to the development of the soft and hard techniques of martial arts. The hard techniques, although they use a part of physical performance are not completely influenced by it, but by the stance that uses the resistance from the ground to the strike. Occasionally it is also just the speed and force of movement that give power to the attack and not physical prowess. Imagine someone running at you and jumping toward you preparing them in midair to deliver a powerful knee strike. In this case it is not the leg strength but the speed of movement in the air that conveys the force of the blow. Very often the difference between an army fighter and a martial arts master is precisely physical training. The necessary time used to meditate and improve martial arts form comes to harm in the physical training of a martial arts master (at least in ancient times it was so). This is supposed to represent a bit of the mystical monk.
Now scientific information about the biology of muscles: As muscles, There are 2 different types of muscles (searching the web). One type of muscle that is very powerful but slow (red muscle) and another type of muscle that is less powerful but fast (white muscle). It is also told of a third type, pink muscle that has both properties (but I read about it in the Kenichi Ryozanpaku manga).
Conclusion: So a person who develops dexterity is not a person without muscles, but with more compact muscles specifically for speed, sprinting and fluidity in movement. From the information I have given you, I think the monk should be mainly with white muscles (Dexterity) and in the case of a monk with red muscles (Strength) should be uniquely in some subclass.
yes they are monks.
Slow vs Fast Muscle Fibers || Red vs White Muscle Fibers || Types of Muscle Fiber: Type I, Type II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=lrHEd4uqm2A
They should definitely bring it back and make it a basic option in One D&D. I would also love to see Unarmoured Defence (DEX+CON) added to the Tough feat (or the Durable feat) and thus be available to anyone. But then I love my unarmoured characters, despite the community seeming to think not using armour is some how a major nerf that cripples your character.
PS Fighter works exactly the same as people want the monk to play, people are arguing for a monk with high AC, high HP that stands in melee and takes hits, while making many melee attacks themselves - which is exactly what a Fighter does. People don't want a hit-and-run play style or they wouldn't be obsessed with increasing monk AC and hp, people don't want a battle-field control monk or they would all be screaming about the nerfing of stunning strike rather than applauding it. They want a monk that plays the same as a fighter - has the same HP, AC, and DPR using unarmed strikes - but hits people with fists rather than weapons.
I just don’t see them making the changes to allow STR monk. Although I think it would be a nice option. I’ve wanted more from the monk but I don’t think WotC will do much, unfortunately. Even from the beginning people were referring to this update as 5.5E or even 5.25E.
Personally, if they wanted to get away from Asian influence etc I would be fine if they dumped the “monastic” theme and go all in on magic. Let the monk be the one that taps into the weave, or whatever magic is/comes from (I’m not much on lore) to fuel their abilities like SS, slowfall, elements features, shadow’s features, etc and name Ki/DP something else. Not much would have to change other than expanding on what the flavor text already provides.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
While the unarmed fighting style wasn’t in the UAs they were meant (as the 2024 edition is supposedly meant) to be backward compatible to 5e including Tasha and Xanther so unarme fighting would still be a thing a fighter/ranger (monk c) could do.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
i'm glad i asked that, and thank you for answering succinctly. i'll agree to disagree.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
All 'magic' is not the same. And I was never really disagreeing that the monk is about more than just being an MMA guy, there is a supernatural or mystic element. Also, real world many martial artists claim there is more to what they are doing than just being well trained. Even if a monk is not clearly using 'magic' they are still different from a fighter in their approach/source/mentality. Much the same way that a warlock and a wizard are both using magic, but the source and way they access that magic is an essential difference in the class.
Also, if you conceptualize the monk, and the wizard as doing the same thing, you will miss the fantasy, and concept of the martial artist. Someone who takes all magic in dnd as the same will be like, ok, monk casts meteor. No not really.
the description of 'ki' in the monk description is virtually the same as chi, chakra, and other metaphysical concepts in our world. In a world of magic, this would involve magic.
Also, the monk is not just about being supernatural. They are both mystics, AND Artists/Philosophers of physical combat. Some might lean more into one side than the other. A monk subclass could totally focus only on the physical side with various stances or forms that alter the properties of their attacks, and still be a monk.
from a standpoint of DND 5e Guile and Zangief would mechanically be monks or have levels in monk. They can harness their inner energies to create super natural phenomon. In the street fighter TV series, Dhalsim described how guile was chanelling inner energy for sonic booms and flash kicks. Zangief now can dispell mystical projectiles with 'banishing flat' Which is essentially manipulating chi. Blanka, I can't say, he might be a mutant. I don't know if they ever explained his evolution.
As of UA6 only paladin, Ranger, and fighter can have fighting styles. Though its a bit murky, because fighting initiate was in a different book.
I like the concept of an unarmored fighter, but execution of unarmed fighting for monk essentially weakens the class and its versatility.
I definitely would prefer the monk not to need armor, but it essentially ends up making monk's defense not scale well, and makes it almost impossible for monks to be good at physical things, and grapples, when conceptually as people who spend all their free time developing their mind and body, they would be very good at. The monk is bad at jumping, swimming, long distance travel? makes no sense.
Starting at the fourth level, a monk should get an ASI at every level and there should be feats (martial arts techniques) which have a prerequisite of three levels of monk. All other class abilities for the monk of 4th level and higher should be removed.
Effectively, that's what scares me. Because of this way of thinking they will simply end up making the monk a subclass of the fighter.