What are worst shananigans that you can think of for the new Modify / Create Spell features?
Components - this allows some spells to be cast with no components (thus only preventable with Antimagic field) including: Counterspell, Misty Step and Dimension Door.
Concentration - this makes Polymorphing / True Polymorphing yourself oh so powerful as enemies have to chew through the 100+ extra hit points, other great uses are Blur, Haste, or Greater Invisibility, though really since Modify spell is a ritual, I expect most will just assume the wizard applies it to every concentration spell they have prepared at the start of the day.
Ritual - Simulacrum seems to be the winner here, no more complex arguing about how to do chain-simulacrums just Modify it into a ritual and have as many as you can afford to make.
Targets - Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball are the obvious here, but the most powerful options are definitely Sickening Radiance, Hunger of Hadar or Stinking Cloud.
I think making something no concentration has to be the biggest one. Concentration is such a core mechanic designed to keep wizard power under control. I remember a 2e tactic where the wizard would cast fly, improved invisibility and protection from normal arrows and just hover over the battle practically untouchable. Concentration ended that, but this could bring it, or something similar, back.
I think making something no concentration has to be the biggest one. Concentration is such a core mechanic designed to keep wizard power under control. I remember a 2e tactic where the wizard would cast fly, improved invisibility and protection from normal arrows and just hover over the battle practically untouchable. Concentration ended that, but this could bring it, or something similar, back.
It doesn’t remove concentration. It just makes so you don’t lose concentration from taking damage.
I think making something no concentration has to be the biggest one. Concentration is such a core mechanic designed to keep wizard power under control. I remember a 2e tactic where the wizard would cast fly, improved invisibility and protection from normal arrows and just hover over the battle practically untouchable. Concentration ended that, but this could bring it, or something similar, back.
It doesn’t remove concentration. It just makes so you don’t lose concentration from taking damage.
The new hide makes you invisible and casting spells only removes that invisibility if they have verbal components. So remove verbal components from lightning bolt and blast them with lightning while hidden. Only way they can detect you is to spend an action on a search check.
The new hide makes you invisible and casting spells only removes that invisibility if they have verbal components. So remove verbal components from lightning bolt and blast them with lightning while hidden. Only way they can detect you is to spend an action on a search check.
That's assuming you don't step out of cover right in front of the enemy. It's not actual invisibility so the standard rules apply where you can't stand right in front of something and remain unseen.
As written, Targets is currently the strongest in combat. The way it's worded the spell of choice has no effect on your allies. Web? Allies unaffected (no difficult terrain or saving throw) Darkness? Your allies can see through it. Silence? Caster Allies can still use verbal components. Sleet Storm? Allies completely unaffected.
I'm pretty sure the intention was for allies to automatically succeed any saving throw and not take damage if they would take half, which is still pretty good but still subjects them to lingering effects such as difficult terrain, blocked vision, etc.
In a much more meta sense for long-term planning, I think removal of costly material components that aren't consumed and the ability to turn spells with a casting time greater than 10 minutes into Rituals has a lot of potential for warping an adventure or campaign.
Removing costly material components only matters as much as your DM cares about costly components that aren't consumed, but I think the most disruptive example is Plane Shift. Nothing can derail a campaign more than the party being able to run off to another plane without having to discover an item of value attuned to that plane. Worth noting the Subtle Spell change for Sorcerer also can do this.
Turning spells into rituals effectively allows the Wizard to have access to more spells on any given day since they no longer need to prepare them. And since the chosen spells have long cast times anyway, an extra 10 minutes to ritual cast often means nothing because I'm not going to cast them under pressure anyway. Being able to chain-cast Control Weather could dramatically warp the way players approach an out-door encounter. Unlimited Scrying. Guards and Wards. High level Wizards can essentially craft their own dungeon if they've been allowed to modify and create enough spells.
Funnily enough, Mordenkainen's Secret Chest I think just stops working if you remove the material component since the component is the physical chest and the replica of it.
The rest of the potential modifications are good, they just probably wouldn't be my first choice outside of niche situations.
Removing costly material components only matters as much as your DM cares about costly components that aren't consumed, but I think the most disruptive example is Plane Shift. Nothing can derail a campaign more than the party being able to run off to another plane without having to discover an item of value attuned to that plane. Worth noting the Subtle Spell change for Sorcerer also can do this.
Well, I don't see this example as feasible either as a player or as a Master, that spell along with other specific ones should NEVER lose any specific material component (Or in those particular cases it should be much more complex, taking years or decades of research and testing before achieving it, and perhaps it will only be replaced by complex signs that lengthen the casting time.), in the case of the mentioned spell, even if it does not have a material with a cost, it does or if it must have something from the plane to which it will travel to establish a connection, or for example the Shillelagh cantrip cannot be removed all the components thanks to a focus because one of those components is actually to apply the cantrip on it, or modeling the stone will always need plasticine because the stone will copy its shape in a larger scale, you can't imagine it and that's it, and according to the details that you put in the plasticine (Ability Test) they are what the stone will have after changing its shape, thus limiting what you can transform according to your skill or that of whoever handle plasticine, etc.
The worst shenanigan I can see is that, once once you've cast Create Spell, it's in your spellbook and you can prepare it, which means you can... use it as a basis for Modify Spell.
Spells of the same name don't stack, but spells of the same effect can.
Creating multiple spells with the same effect but different names allow them to be stacked when they shouldn't be. With Create Spell and Scribe Spell you can copy them to Spell Scrolls which allow unlimited casting.
Being able to turn spells like Simulacrum into Rituals is probably the most powerful use though.
Removing costly material components only matters as much as your DM cares about costly components that aren't consumed, but I think the most disruptive example is Plane Shift. Nothing can derail a campaign more than the party being able to run off to another plane without having to discover an item of value attuned to that plane. Worth noting the Subtle Spell change for Sorcerer also can do this.
Well, I don't see this example as feasible either as a player or as a Master, that spell along with other specific ones should NEVER lose any specific material component (Or in those particular cases it should be much more complex, taking years or decades of research and testing before achieving it, and perhaps it will only be replaced by complex signs that lengthen the casting time.), in the case of the mentioned spell, even if it does not have a material with a cost, it does or if it must have something from the plane to which it will travel to establish a connection, or for example the Shillelagh cantrip cannot be removed all the components thanks to a focus because one of those components is actually to apply the cantrip on it, or modeling the stone will always need plasticine because the stone will copy its shape in a larger scale, you can't imagine it and that's it, and according to the details that you put in the plasticine (Ability Test) they are what the stone will have after changing its shape, thus limiting what you can transform according to your skill or that of whoever handle plasticine, etc.
That's not what the rules of Modify Spell and Subtle Spell say. You can remove the material cost for any spell that isn't consumed.
It's true that removing a component can cause some spells to likely just not work as the component is used in the rules text of the spell (see Shillelagh and Mordenkainen's Secret Chest), but Plane Shift isn't among them. There's actually precedent for a component-less Plane Shift such as Night Hags or any Innate Spellcaster (meaning they cast without requiring material components) with the spell, so we already know the attuned item isn't necessary in circumstances that allow for it - i.e. Modify Spell or Subtle Spell.
The worst shenanigan I can see is that, once once you've cast Create Spell, it's in your spellbook and you can prepare it, which means you can... use it as a basis for Modify Spell.
Modify Spell can only affect Arcane spells. Scribe, Modify, and Create Spell have the 'Wizard' tag and aren't on the Arcane spell list, so they can't be modified. The same goes for any spell you create, they lose the Arcane tag and gain the Wizard tag.
The poorest design I think is the fact that these Wizard spells aren't automatically prepared. Meaning, if the Wizard were to lose their spellbook and not have Scribe Spell prepared (which there's no incentive to because it's a Ritual), they would be incapable of creating a new spellbook. If they didn't have Modify and Create Spell prepared, they wouldn't be able to add them to their new spellbook. I don't think Wizards often lose their spellbooks, but that isn't to say the designers shouldn't plan around that contingency.
Spells of the same name don't stack, but spells of the same effect can.
Creating multiple spells with the same effect but different names allow them to be stacked when they shouldn't be. With Create Spell and Scribe Spell you can copy them to Spell Scrolls which allow unlimited casting.
Being able to turn spells like Simulacrum into Rituals is probably the most powerful use though.
While I agree turning spells with long casts into Rituals is strong, spells like Simulacrum are at least limited by their costly, consumed components.
Though there's also the implication that the Simulacrum would then also be able to ritually cast Simulacrum and whatever other Ritual spells you may have already created. Not only that, but they could Modify their own spells since that also is a ritual. I don't know if the current iteration of Simulacrum will make it past the playtest, especially now that every Arcane caster has access to it, but we'll see.
Honestly, I hope they remove Simulacrum entirely as a spell, and instead create a magic item like the Tomes of Golem Creation, that has the same effect of what Simulacrum currently does so that DMs can easily choose when and how the PCs can or cannot access it.
Honestly, I hope they remove Simulacrum entirely as a spell, and instead create a magic item like the Tomes of Golem Creation, that has the same effect of what Simulacrum currently does so that DMs can easily choose when and how the PCs can or cannot access it.
They could also just do a more aggressive pruning of the capabilities of the simulacrum, such as just deleting all spells above level 5.
Concentration - this makes Polymorphing / True Polymorphing yourself oh so powerful as enemies have to chew through the 100+ extra hit points, other great uses are Blur, Haste, or Greater Invisibility, though really since Modify spell is a ritual, I expect most will just assume the wizard applies it to every concentration spell they have prepared at the start of the day.
Modify Spell can only be used to change the parameters of one spell at a time. The changes last until your next long rest, or until the next time you cast Modify Spell, so you can only have one spell with damage-proof concentration.
Modify Spell can only be used to change the parameters of one spell at a time. The changes last until your next long rest, or until the next time you cast Modify Spell, so you can only have one spell with damage-proof concentration.
Once you cast Create Spell, it's now just a spell you can prepare normally (presumably; the wording isn't super clear but if that's not the case, create spell is useless).
The worst shenanigan I can see is that, once once you've cast Create Spell, it's in your spellbook and you can prepare it, which means you can... use it as a basis for Modify Spell.
The poorest design I think is the fact that these Wizard spells aren't automatically prepared. Meaning, if the Wizard were to lose their spellbook and not have Scribe Spell prepared (which there's no incentive to because it's a Ritual), they would be incapable of creating a new spellbook. If they didn't have Modify and Create Spell prepared, they wouldn't be able to add them to their new spellbook. I don't think Wizards often lose their spellbooks, but that isn't to say the designers shouldn't plan around that contingency.
Yes, it would be a much better design to have your class spells always prepared (although then they would also have to change the wording of scribe spell, since it wouldn't make sense).
However, if your DM takes away your spellbook, which is a core feature of your class, and doesn't give you an alternative, you should have a very serious talk with him. I understand that we are talking here from a design perspective, and you are right that this is poorly designed. But it is also true that DM and players must row in the same direction to create a shared story. And not in opposite directions to screw up.
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What are worst shananigans that you can think of for the new Modify / Create Spell features?
Components - this allows some spells to be cast with no components (thus only preventable with Antimagic field) including: Counterspell, Misty Step and Dimension Door.
Concentration - this makes Polymorphing / True Polymorphing yourself oh so powerful as enemies have to chew through the 100+ extra hit points, other great uses are Blur, Haste, or Greater Invisibility, though really since Modify spell is a ritual, I expect most will just assume the wizard applies it to every concentration spell they have prepared at the start of the day.
Ritual - Simulacrum seems to be the winner here, no more complex arguing about how to do chain-simulacrums just Modify it into a ritual and have as many as you can afford to make.
Targets - Hypnotic Pattern and Fireball are the obvious here, but the most powerful options are definitely Sickening Radiance, Hunger of Hadar or Stinking Cloud.
I think making something no concentration has to be the biggest one. Concentration is such a core mechanic designed to keep wizard power under control. I remember a 2e tactic where the wizard would cast fly, improved invisibility and protection from normal arrows and just hover over the battle practically untouchable. Concentration ended that, but this could bring it, or something similar, back.Nothing to see here, move along.
It doesn’t remove concentration. It just makes so you don’t lose concentration from taking damage.
It doesn’t remove concentration. It just makes so you don’t lose concentration from taking damage.
Ahhh. Thank you for the correction.
The new hide makes you invisible and casting spells only removes that invisibility if they have verbal components. So remove verbal components from lightning bolt and blast them with lightning while hidden. Only way they can detect you is to spend an action on a search check.
That's assuming you don't step out of cover right in front of the enemy. It's not actual invisibility so the standard rules apply where you can't stand right in front of something and remain unseen.
Oooh good catch! You could make the ultimate sneaky wizard now, where non of their spell break their hiding...
As written, Targets is currently the strongest in combat. The way it's worded the spell of choice has no effect on your allies. Web? Allies unaffected (no difficult terrain or saving throw) Darkness? Your allies can see through it. Silence? Caster Allies can still use verbal components. Sleet Storm? Allies completely unaffected.
I'm pretty sure the intention was for allies to automatically succeed any saving throw and not take damage if they would take half, which is still pretty good but still subjects them to lingering effects such as difficult terrain, blocked vision, etc.
In a much more meta sense for long-term planning, I think removal of costly material components that aren't consumed and the ability to turn spells with a casting time greater than 10 minutes into Rituals has a lot of potential for warping an adventure or campaign.
Funnily enough, Mordenkainen's Secret Chest I think just stops working if you remove the material component since the component is the physical chest and the replica of it.
The rest of the potential modifications are good, they just probably wouldn't be my first choice outside of niche situations.
Well, I don't see this example as feasible either as a player or as a Master, that spell along with other specific ones should NEVER lose any specific material component (Or in those particular cases it should be much more complex, taking years or decades of research and testing before achieving it, and perhaps it will only be replaced by complex signs that lengthen the casting time.), in the case of the mentioned spell, even if it does not have a material with a cost, it does or if it must have something from the plane to which it will travel to establish a connection, or for example the Shillelagh cantrip cannot be removed all the components thanks to a focus because one of those components is actually to apply the cantrip on it, or modeling the stone will always need plasticine because the stone will copy its shape in a larger scale, you can't imagine it and that's it, and according to the details that you put in the plasticine (Ability Test) they are what the stone will have after changing its shape, thus limiting what you can transform according to your skill or that of whoever handle plasticine, etc.
The worst shenanigan I can see is that, once once you've cast Create Spell, it's in your spellbook and you can prepare it, which means you can... use it as a basis for Modify Spell.
Spells of the same name don't stack, but spells of the same effect can.
Creating multiple spells with the same effect but different names allow them to be stacked when they shouldn't be. With Create Spell and Scribe Spell you can copy them to Spell Scrolls which allow unlimited casting.
Being able to turn spells like Simulacrum into Rituals is probably the most powerful use though.
That's not what the rules of Modify Spell and Subtle Spell say. You can remove the material cost for any spell that isn't consumed.
It's true that removing a component can cause some spells to likely just not work as the component is used in the rules text of the spell (see Shillelagh and Mordenkainen's Secret Chest), but Plane Shift isn't among them. There's actually precedent for a component-less Plane Shift such as Night Hags or any Innate Spellcaster (meaning they cast without requiring material components) with the spell, so we already know the attuned item isn't necessary in circumstances that allow for it - i.e. Modify Spell or Subtle Spell.
Modify Spell can only affect Arcane spells. Scribe, Modify, and Create Spell have the 'Wizard' tag and aren't on the Arcane spell list, so they can't be modified. The same goes for any spell you create, they lose the Arcane tag and gain the Wizard tag.
The poorest design I think is the fact that these Wizard spells aren't automatically prepared. Meaning, if the Wizard were to lose their spellbook and not have Scribe Spell prepared (which there's no incentive to because it's a Ritual), they would be incapable of creating a new spellbook. If they didn't have Modify and Create Spell prepared, they wouldn't be able to add them to their new spellbook. I don't think Wizards often lose their spellbooks, but that isn't to say the designers shouldn't plan around that contingency.
While I agree turning spells with long casts into Rituals is strong, spells like Simulacrum are at least limited by their costly, consumed components.
Though there's also the implication that the Simulacrum would then also be able to ritually cast Simulacrum and whatever other Ritual spells you may have already created. Not only that, but they could Modify their own spells since that also is a ritual. I don't know if the current iteration of Simulacrum will make it past the playtest, especially now that every Arcane caster has access to it, but we'll see.
Honestly, I hope they remove Simulacrum entirely as a spell, and instead create a magic item like the Tomes of Golem Creation, that has the same effect of what Simulacrum currently does so that DMs can easily choose when and how the PCs can or cannot access it.
They could also just do a more aggressive pruning of the capabilities of the simulacrum, such as just deleting all spells above level 5.
Modify Spell can only be used to change the parameters of one spell at a time. The changes last until your next long rest, or until the next time you cast Modify Spell, so you can only have one spell with damage-proof concentration.
Once you cast Create Spell, it's now just a spell you can prepare normally (presumably; the wording isn't super clear but if that's not the case, create spell is useless).
Yes, it would be a much better design to have your class spells always prepared (although then they would also have to change the wording of scribe spell, since it wouldn't make sense).
However, if your DM takes away your spellbook, which is a core feature of your class, and doesn't give you an alternative, you should have a very serious talk with him. I understand that we are talking here from a design perspective, and you are right that this is poorly designed. But it is also true that DM and players must row in the same direction to create a shared story. And not in opposite directions to screw up.