Just rereading this a few times because this is how its stated in the playtest, and checking the list at the end of the playtest. this is how it pans out:
"Chosen Spell List. At 1st level, choose a spell list: Arcane, Divine, or Primal. The chosen list is your Bard spell list and represents the magical tradition in which you learned your bardic arts. Whichever list you choose, it includes the Vicious Mockery cantrip for you."
and as full casters they have 9th level spells at level 17.
AND they have d8 hit die over the wizard's d6.
AND they have bardic inspiration.
AND the college of dance has this:
"Unarmored Defense. Your base Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Charisma modifier"
meaning rather than even BOTHERING to play a wizard, you can play a naked musician with easily a AC18 (with mage armor) with more hit points and just as much magic Oh.. and bonus skills specific to the class
The College of the Dance's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with mage armor; if you have multiple AC calculations you must choose one (and only one) to use.
However it actually tops out at AC 20 if you can get both Dexterity and Charisma to +5 each, same as Monk's Unarmored Defense with Dexterity and Wisdom, or a Barbarian's with Dexterity and Constitution (though most Barbarians aren't going to bother, but getting a boost to Constitution helps them close the gap if they go for the "my muscles are my armor" option).
While giving Bards access to every spell list without restrictions is clearly ridiculous, Bards have always had access to wish (or any other spell they want) due to their Magical Secrets feature. The only difference is that previously they only had four choices (six if College of Lore), whereas now for no good reason they get access to every spell list as a full caster, which is the more major problem; it's a change that belittles every caster, especially when Bards were already one of the best casters at using counterspell (thanks to Jack of All Trades).
Wizards do still have the advantage of effectively more spell slots (thanks to Arcane Recovery, Signature spells etc.) and other features though. For me the bigger problem is that this version of Bard is less of a Bard than ever before, and right after we got an awesome D&D movie in which the Bard didn't cast a single spell, so clearly Wizards of the Coast didn't actually watch it to see how great that was (a Bard shouldn't need to be slinging spells to be making a difference to the party).
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...For me the bigger problem is that this version of Bard is less of a Bard than ever before, and right after we got an awesome D&D movie in which the Bard didn't cast a single spell, so clearly Wizards of the Coast didn't actually watch it to see how great that was (a Bard shouldn't need to be slinging spells to be making a difference to the party).
this has been bouncing around my head lately as well!
...and just to link the stat block, I'll note that Edgin Darvis was considered powerful enough to join a faction and go on tough raids but he wouldn't have been mistaken for a wizard. not a single web spell, firebolt, or silverybarb but he was sill great support.
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I just want healing and illusions at the same time. I can't get it without investing in feats / specific races; heaven forbid getting higher level illusions or healing.
The bard should be specialized in support allies and confusing (control) enemies.
It would be nice a big change, like making it non-caster, but creating spell-like effects with its songs. At the end it would be like casting spells, but with another resource instead spell slots.
But as that is not going to happen, at least, instead granting full spell domain, it could be: You can get any spell from any domain of the schools <schools list>. That would be the schools typical for Bard things. Then if some spells are not in those schools, like some support like healing ones that are Evocation, then add them: You can get any spell from any domain of the schools <schools list> in addition to <spells list>.
Granting full list access, then others full lists access at higher level, probably I am not the only one thinking is excessive.
Some people have suggested that Bard should be a half-caster, which I think makes a lot of sense.
Make Bardic Inspiration a lot more powerful (so their other half is pure support rather than martial), give them access to all spell lists but make them choose several schools of magic to be limited to (Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion gives you basically the 5e Bard list), then let them use Magical Secrets to gain access to other spells, and higher level spells (similar to how the playtest Warlock's Mystic Arcanum works) so you can either get spells you can't otherwise, or go for higher level spells to somewhat keep pace with full casters in a limited fashion.
In 5e they've always been somewhat limited as full casters (due to having not that many spell choices and no added lists) so half-caster with boosts lets them double down on support.
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Here is an idea. Take the half caster warlock model, rename eldritch invocations to arcane knacks or something, and let the bard use their knacks to choose an occasional higher level spell when they level up. If they're an expert their class should be defined by their wide array of skills not their ability to master every spell list in the game making them simultaneously full mages/priests, and full experts.
I just want healing and illusions at the same time. I can't get it without investing in feats / specific races; heaven forbid getting higher level illusions or healing.
I would enjoy a bard based upon expertise that can access a specific number of schools of magic. Perhaps the schools of magic support the theme of each subclass rather than just the base bard class?
I don't know where I got this image of them (EverQuest? Dragon Realms mud, maybe?) but I've been thoroughly offended from the start that d&d bards don't deal in auras and cumulative spell effects. more Song of Rest and Countercharm, less full caster.
but, working with what we've got and after having seen College of Dance, I feel there's room for a new line-crossing subclass in the next UA. one where the player relies on invocations for utility, makes brief pacts for temporary expertise, mystical arcanum for higher spells, and oh how about tack on a bonus action Help at range why not. half-caster warlock with a music focus! see what we learn from that.
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I just want healing and illusions at the same time. I can't get it without investing in feats / specific races; heaven forbid getting higher level illusions or healing.
Actually you explicitly can. Just not until higher level. Before that you must choose.
Many of the One DnD proposed changes increase flexibility at the cost of flavor.
(Poorly worded topic. Who cares if Bards get Wish at high level? I first played DnD over forty years ago, have played a decent amount and I’ve never gotten to that level in any campaign).
To the OP, the Cleric is getting Wish so why not the Bard? Maybe they should give it to Monks. Lord knows they can use the boost. /sarcasm
I don’t really see this standing in the next revision. I kind of like that they can choose a spell list to start but not so much their 10th level “get everything” feature.
@Mephista, wait until 10th level and your wish is granted.
I wouldn’t be opposed to spell school limitations. But although an interesting idea, half caster or invocation like abilities just won’t happen with their renewed focus on backwards compatibility.
Poorly worded topic. Who cares if Bards get Wish at high level? I first played DnD over forty years ago, have played a decent amount and I’ve never gotten to that level in any campaign.
Oh i agree with you, I'm actually doing a bit of rabble rousing to get attention given to how excessive this all is because I think it's important to give attention to the fact that the bard and in particular this subclass has become "better than" monks, wizards, clerics, and rogues in one fell swoop. That's about 1/3 of the classes that they're getting all the "best of the best" perks to.
the fact that it's wish itself, which is one of the most controversial spells and has typically been the realm of the wizard, is just used to illustrate this fact.
Honestly, enough is enough with this, and I want a revision/take backsies as soon as possible.
The College of the Dance's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with mage armor; if you have multiple AC calculations you must choose one (and only one) to use.
However it actually tops out at AC 20 if you can get both Dexterity and Charisma to +5 each, same as Monk's Unarmored Defense with Dexterity and Wisdom, or a Barbarian's with Dexterity and Constitution (though most Barbarians aren't going to bother, but getting a boost to Constitution helps them close the gap if they go for the "my muscles are my armor" option).
A quick clarification: The 19th level ASI allows a 22 ability score in the latest UA so starting with two 16 ability scores adding 5 ASI's would cap at 21 AC. It's comparing a subclass to a class again though and there are high AC wizard subclasses.
While giving Bards access to every spell list without restrictions is clearly ridiculous, Bards have always had access to wish (or any other spell they want) due to their Magical Secrets feature. The only difference is that previously they only had four choices (six if College of Lore), whereas now for no good reason they get access to every spell list as a full caster, which is the more major problem; it's a change that belittles every caster, especially when Bards were already one of the best casters at using counterspell (thanks to Jack of All Trades).
Jack of all trades no long applies to things like counter spell or initiative. It only applies to skill proficiencies with which the bard does not have skill. Being the "best counterspeller" isn't a brag though. It required use of magical secrets for a niche role because counterspell wasn't on the bard list.
As for magical secrets, yes bards always had access to wish, but they still don't have every spell as a caster because of the spells known restriction. Try playing one under the latest UA rules. Bards gain 8 spells prepared after gaining magical secrets. That's it. And they take spells from their primary list out of those too. It's not some big major change. Especially since wish is one of those spells they'll take and wish already grants access to every spell on every list regardless.
People keep looking at what bards might take but don't look at what they have after those spells have been taken. Shrodingers. What happens is players choose the spells for the type of bard they want to play that matches the theme. At high levels they can continue to do that from a broader selection if there are spells outside of that theme
Wizards do still have the advantage of effectively more spell slots (thanks to Arcane Recovery, Signature spells etc.) and other features though. For me the bigger problem is that this version of Bard is less of a Bard than ever before, and right after we got an awesome D&D movie in which the Bard didn't cast a single spell, so clearly Wizards of the Coast didn't actually watch it to see how great that was (a Bard shouldn't need to be slinging spells to be making a difference to the party).
That bard was more like a rogue in the movie. I would point out the druid never cast a spell, the sorcerer relied on trinkets more like an artificer that didn't build their own stuff, and things like that. The bard in this UA does feel like a bard to me.
Wizards are definitely better spell casters than bards, yes. Because wizards can access all the spells in the spellbook and bards can only access the spells known. Wizards can cast rituals from the spell book and therefor don't need to prep them. Wizards can modify and create spells. Wizards can take feats with the mage tag. Wizard have arcane recovery. Wizards have spell mastery. Wizards have signature spells. Wizard subclasses amplify spell effectiveness someone mentioned a dance bard with a better AC than most bards but neglected the evoker's over-channeled fireball that didn't harm party members within it, or a life cleric in heavy armor using healing spell. Bard having access to spells still doesn't make them better at cast those spells than anyone else who can already do it just as well or better.
Poorly worded topic. Who cares if Bards get Wish at high level? I first played DnD over forty years ago, have played a decent amount and I’ve never gotten to that level in any campaign.
Oh i agree with you, I'm actually doing a bit of rabble rousing to get attention given to how excessive this all is because I think it's important to give attention to the fact that the bard and in particular this subclass has become "better than" monks, wizards, clerics, and rogues in one fell swoop. That's about 1/3 of the classes that they're getting all the "best of the best" perks to.
the fact that it's wish itself, which is one of the most controversial spells and has typically been the realm of the wizard, is just used to illustrate this fact.
Honestly, enough is enough with this, and I want a revision/take backsies as soon as possible.
Bards in this subclass aren't better than any of those classes. You're welcome to try and prove it, however.
While I am not sure they are the best caster in the game I think its close enough I wouldn't argue with people too much who say they are. Which just does not feel like a bard to me. And damn college of eloquence on this bard will be insane. Backwards compatibility will create more problems than it solves.
(Don't forget that a College of Dance Bard could very easily gain access to Shield too.)
I was so hoping that they were finally moving away from the locked-in spell lists. Even the strong school restrictions were better if they allowed daily spell prep. It made Bards into a very useful support caster that could eventually pull some really cool tricks to round them out. (And they managed to preserve and enhance the versatility of Wizards in a great way, IMO.)
The one thing that I was encouraged by early on was how many classes were moving to daily preparation. (Even the weaker swap one daily was fine.) There are so many games where we run into a situation where there are spells that would really help, but at best you're a long rest away from being able to solve the problem. And some classes that pretend to be all about versatility (I'm looking at you, Artificer) really aren't.
I feel like this is a massive and unwelcome step back, even though it *does* allow for some very different Bards. Of course...they're Bards that I would have built before with the old 2014 Bard spell lists...
I guess I'm not overly excited because if you picked the right spells, great. But if you didn't, your versatility can be nearly useless. And you still have to work really hard to be as versatile as the 2014 Bard was.
On top of my objections to the power of the choice of spell list, I don't like how much it muddies the flavor. I just have a hard time understanding what the differences are between Bards that chose different lists. What is a Divine Bard, and how can it cast commune if it doesn't draw its power from faith? What is an Arcane Bard, and what sets it apart from a Wizard? To me, the only list with a solid foundation flavor-wise is Primal (which, from what I've heard, aligns with the class's roots). But even then, I could see a Druid doing about as good a job of portraying the fantasy.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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While I am not sure they are the best caster in the game I think its close enough I wouldn't argue with people too much who say they are. Which just does not feel like a bard to me. And damn college of eloquence on this bard will be insane. Backwards compatibility will create more problems than it solves.
How are bards close enough to other major spellcasters? Bards are barely baseline adequate.
If you can't build a bard that feels like a bard to you that seems like a you issue. I'm not having that issue so I would have to question what you think a bard is and what you think ends up so different from the bard's diverse list in 5e now plus magical secrets versus a less diverse list plus magical secrets.
What spells are they suddenly adding now that are "insane" with eloquence bards?
(Don't forget that a College of Dance Bard could very easily gain access to Shield too.)
Everyone can very easily gain access to the shield spell. It's readily available by way of a 1st level background feat. How is a bard with shield significant over a cleric or paladin with shield? Or a ranger, or an artificer, or any high AC wizard build?
I was so hoping that they were finally moving away from the locked-in spell lists. Even the strong school restrictions were better if they allowed daily spell prep. It made Bards into a very useful support caster that could eventually pull some really cool tricks to round them out. (And they managed to preserve and enhance the versatility of Wizards in a great way, IMO.)
The issue with the school restrictions was bards lost most of the range of spells with those restrictions. If someone wants to play a bard like that now all they need to do is select the arcane spell list and select from those schools. The only thing changing the bards to choosing a spell list with spells known was to open up themes like the cantor or lute priest, or a druidic bard again.
The locked in spell list is needed to make this work. The single spell list combined with spells known instead of prepped every day needs to be a restriction otherwise magical secrets at 10th level really would be suddenly opening the spell lists wide open. The real issue is the choice to go with standardized spell lists because the bard needs changed to work with that no matter what if we don't use class spell lists.
The one thing that I was encouraged by early on was how many classes were moving to daily preparation. (Even the weaker swap one daily was fine.) There are so many games where we run into a situation where there are spells that would really help, but at best you're a long rest away from being able to solve the problem. And some classes that pretend to be all about versatility (I'm looking at you, Artificer) really aren't.
I like the artificers too, though. :-D
I guess I'm not overly excited because if you picked the right spells, great. But if you didn't, your versatility can be nearly useless. And you still have to work really hard to be as versatile as the 2014 Bard was.
You're not wrong about bards being less versatile with these changes instead of more. What people don't realize is just how many magical secrets it would take just to rebuild the diverse bard list from 2014. Bards are down in spell versatility instead of up, and have to wait to get some of that back. The arcane, divine, primal spell list model is problematic for bards but I think UA6 does a good job of working into it by giving those choices along with spells known (which is what was there before) as a control mechanic.
Going from spells known to spells know again is only really problematic if there are no good spells from which to choose and this isn't the case. Taking a spell a person finds out they don't like is either a DM discussion on how to fix it or temporary until leveling up. My advice is to not rely on the spells so much if there's a concern about spell selection and a poor choice would be to focus on skills more. The spell variety is iconic to bards but the real benefit to playing a bard is in using skills as an alternative to spell casting so that those spell slots last longer.
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Just rereading this a few times because this is how its stated in the playtest, and checking the list at the end of the playtest. this is how it pans out:
"Chosen Spell List. At 1st level, choose a spell list: Arcane, Divine, or Primal. The chosen list is your Bard spell list and represents the magical tradition in which you learned your bardic arts. Whichever list you choose, it includes the Vicious Mockery cantrip for you."
and as full casters they have 9th level spells at level 17.
AND they have d8 hit die over the wizard's d6.
AND they have bardic inspiration.
AND the college of dance has this:
"Unarmored Defense. Your base Armor Class equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Charisma modifier"
meaning rather than even BOTHERING to play a wizard, you can play a naked musician with easily a AC18 (with mage armor) with more hit points and just as much magic
Oh.. and bonus skills specific to the class
The College of the Dance's Unarmored Defense doesn't stack with mage armor; if you have multiple AC calculations you must choose one (and only one) to use.
However it actually tops out at AC 20 if you can get both Dexterity and Charisma to +5 each, same as Monk's Unarmored Defense with Dexterity and Wisdom, or a Barbarian's with Dexterity and Constitution (though most Barbarians aren't going to bother, but getting a boost to Constitution helps them close the gap if they go for the "my muscles are my armor" option).
While giving Bards access to every spell list without restrictions is clearly ridiculous, Bards have always had access to wish (or any other spell they want) due to their Magical Secrets feature. The only difference is that previously they only had four choices (six if College of Lore), whereas now for no good reason they get access to every spell list as a full caster, which is the more major problem; it's a change that belittles every caster, especially when Bards were already one of the best casters at using counterspell (thanks to Jack of All Trades).
Wizards do still have the advantage of effectively more spell slots (thanks to Arcane Recovery, Signature spells etc.) and other features though. For me the bigger problem is that this version of Bard is less of a Bard than ever before, and right after we got an awesome D&D movie in which the Bard didn't cast a single spell, so clearly Wizards of the Coast didn't actually watch it to see how great that was (a Bard shouldn't need to be slinging spells to be making a difference to the party).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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this has been bouncing around my head lately as well!
...and just to link the stat block, I'll note that Edgin Darvis was considered powerful enough to join a faction and go on tough raids but he wouldn't have been mistaken for a wizard. not a single web spell, firebolt, or silverybarb but he was sill great support.
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tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
A/B testing - Wikipedia
A/B testing is a Marketing Cantrip using polarizing differences between A and B to induce an extreme reaction from each user. Complacency from a user is not helpful, your reaction is necessary to move the product in the direction of greater value. Dr. Peter Venkman, one of many pioneers in A/B testing, studied the benefit of negative reinforcement.
My problem with the bard is much simpler.
I just want healing and illusions at the same time. I can't get it without investing in feats / specific races; heaven forbid getting higher level illusions or healing.
The bard should be specialized in support allies and confusing (control) enemies.
It would be nice a big change, like making it non-caster, but creating spell-like effects with its songs. At the end it would be like casting spells, but with another resource instead spell slots.
But as that is not going to happen, at least, instead granting full spell domain, it could be: You can get any spell from any domain of the schools <schools list>. That would be the schools typical for Bard things. Then if some spells are not in those schools, like some support like healing ones that are Evocation, then add them: You can get any spell from any domain of the schools <schools list> in addition to <spells list>.
Granting full list access, then others full lists access at higher level, probably I am not the only one thinking is excessive.
Some people have suggested that Bard should be a half-caster, which I think makes a lot of sense.
Make Bardic Inspiration a lot more powerful (so their other half is pure support rather than martial), give them access to all spell lists but make them choose several schools of magic to be limited to (Abjuration, Enchantment and Illusion gives you basically the 5e Bard list), then let them use Magical Secrets to gain access to other spells, and higher level spells (similar to how the playtest Warlock's Mystic Arcanum works) so you can either get spells you can't otherwise, or go for higher level spells to somewhat keep pace with full casters in a limited fashion.
In 5e they've always been somewhat limited as full casters (due to having not that many spell choices and no added lists) so half-caster with boosts lets them double down on support.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Here is an idea. Take the half caster warlock model, rename eldritch invocations to arcane knacks or something, and let the bard use their knacks to choose an occasional higher level spell when they level up. If they're an expert their class should be defined by their wide array of skills not their ability to master every spell list in the game making them simultaneously full mages/priests, and full experts.
I would enjoy a bard based upon expertise that can access a specific number of schools of magic. Perhaps the schools of magic support the theme of each subclass rather than just the base bard class?
I don't know where I got this image of them (EverQuest? Dragon Realms mud, maybe?) but I've been thoroughly offended from the start that d&d bards don't deal in auras and cumulative spell effects. more Song of Rest and Countercharm, less full caster.
but, working with what we've got and after having seen College of Dance, I feel there's room for a new line-crossing subclass in the next UA. one where the player relies on invocations for utility, makes brief pacts for temporary expertise, mystical arcanum for higher spells, and oh how about tack on a bonus action Help at range why not. half-caster warlock with a music focus! see what we learn from that.
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Actually you explicitly can. Just not until higher level. Before that you must choose.
Many of the One DnD proposed changes increase flexibility at the cost of flavor.
(Poorly worded topic. Who cares if Bards get Wish at high level? I first played DnD over forty years ago, have played a decent amount and I’ve never gotten to that level in any campaign).
To the OP, the Cleric is getting Wish so why not the Bard? Maybe they should give it to Monks. Lord knows they can use the boost. /sarcasm
I don’t really see this standing in the next revision.
I kind of like that they can choose a spell list to start but not so much their 10th level “get everything” feature.
@Mephista, wait until 10th level and your wish is granted.
I wouldn’t be opposed to spell school limitations. But although an interesting idea, half caster or invocation like abilities just won’t happen with their renewed focus on backwards compatibility.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Oh i agree with you, I'm actually doing a bit of rabble rousing to get attention given to how excessive this all is because I think it's important to give attention to the fact that the bard and in particular this subclass has become "better than" monks, wizards, clerics, and rogues in one fell swoop. That's about 1/3 of the classes that they're getting all the "best of the best" perks to.
the fact that it's wish itself, which is one of the most controversial spells and has typically been the realm of the wizard, is just used to illustrate this fact.
Honestly, enough is enough with this, and I want a revision/take backsies as soon as possible.
A quick clarification: The 19th level ASI allows a 22 ability score in the latest UA so starting with two 16 ability scores adding 5 ASI's would cap at 21 AC. It's comparing a subclass to a class again though and there are high AC wizard subclasses.
Jack of all trades no long applies to things like counter spell or initiative. It only applies to skill proficiencies with which the bard does not have skill. Being the "best counterspeller" isn't a brag though. It required use of magical secrets for a niche role because counterspell wasn't on the bard list.
As for magical secrets, yes bards always had access to wish, but they still don't have every spell as a caster because of the spells known restriction. Try playing one under the latest UA rules. Bards gain 8 spells prepared after gaining magical secrets. That's it. And they take spells from their primary list out of those too. It's not some big major change. Especially since wish is one of those spells they'll take and wish already grants access to every spell on every list regardless.
People keep looking at what bards might take but don't look at what they have after those spells have been taken. Shrodingers. What happens is players choose the spells for the type of bard they want to play that matches the theme. At high levels they can continue to do that from a broader selection if there are spells outside of that theme
That bard was more like a rogue in the movie. I would point out the druid never cast a spell, the sorcerer relied on trinkets more like an artificer that didn't build their own stuff, and things like that. The bard in this UA does feel like a bard to me.
Wizards are definitely better spell casters than bards, yes. Because wizards can access all the spells in the spellbook and bards can only access the spells known. Wizards can cast rituals from the spell book and therefor don't need to prep them. Wizards can modify and create spells. Wizards can take feats with the mage tag. Wizard have arcane recovery. Wizards have spell mastery. Wizards have signature spells. Wizard subclasses amplify spell effectiveness someone mentioned a dance bard with a better AC than most bards but neglected the evoker's over-channeled fireball that didn't harm party members within it, or a life cleric in heavy armor using healing spell. Bard having access to spells still doesn't make them better at cast those spells than anyone else who can already do it just as well or better.
Bards in this subclass aren't better than any of those classes. You're welcome to try and prove it, however.
While I am not sure they are the best caster in the game I think its close enough I wouldn't argue with people too much who say they are. Which just does not feel like a bard to me. And damn college of eloquence on this bard will be insane. Backwards compatibility will create more problems than it solves.
(Don't forget that a College of Dance Bard could very easily gain access to Shield too.)
I was so hoping that they were finally moving away from the locked-in spell lists. Even the strong school restrictions were better if they allowed daily spell prep. It made Bards into a very useful support caster that could eventually pull some really cool tricks to round them out. (And they managed to preserve and enhance the versatility of Wizards in a great way, IMO.)
The one thing that I was encouraged by early on was how many classes were moving to daily preparation. (Even the weaker swap one daily was fine.) There are so many games where we run into a situation where there are spells that would really help, but at best you're a long rest away from being able to solve the problem. And some classes that pretend to be all about versatility (I'm looking at you, Artificer) really aren't.
I feel like this is a massive and unwelcome step back, even though it *does* allow for some very different Bards. Of course...they're Bards that I would have built before with the old 2014 Bard spell lists...
I guess I'm not overly excited because if you picked the right spells, great. But if you didn't, your versatility can be nearly useless. And you still have to work really hard to be as versatile as the 2014 Bard was.
On top of my objections to the power of the choice of spell list, I don't like how much it muddies the flavor. I just have a hard time understanding what the differences are between Bards that chose different lists. What is a Divine Bard, and how can it cast commune if it doesn't draw its power from faith? What is an Arcane Bard, and what sets it apart from a Wizard? To me, the only list with a solid foundation flavor-wise is Primal (which, from what I've heard, aligns with the class's roots). But even then, I could see a Druid doing about as good a job of portraying the fantasy.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
How are bards close enough to other major spellcasters? Bards are barely baseline adequate.
If you can't build a bard that feels like a bard to you that seems like a you issue. I'm not having that issue so I would have to question what you think a bard is and what you think ends up so different from the bard's diverse list in 5e now plus magical secrets versus a less diverse list plus magical secrets.
What spells are they suddenly adding now that are "insane" with eloquence bards?
Everyone can very easily gain access to the shield spell. It's readily available by way of a 1st level background feat. How is a bard with shield significant over a cleric or paladin with shield? Or a ranger, or an artificer, or any high AC wizard build?
The issue with the school restrictions was bards lost most of the range of spells with those restrictions. If someone wants to play a bard like that now all they need to do is select the arcane spell list and select from those schools. The only thing changing the bards to choosing a spell list with spells known was to open up themes like the cantor or lute priest, or a druidic bard again.
The locked in spell list is needed to make this work. The single spell list combined with spells known instead of prepped every day needs to be a restriction otherwise magical secrets at 10th level really would be suddenly opening the spell lists wide open. The real issue is the choice to go with standardized spell lists because the bard needs changed to work with that no matter what if we don't use class spell lists.
I like the artificers too, though. :-D
You're not wrong about bards being less versatile with these changes instead of more. What people don't realize is just how many magical secrets it would take just to rebuild the diverse bard list from 2014. Bards are down in spell versatility instead of up, and have to wait to get some of that back. The arcane, divine, primal spell list model is problematic for bards but I think UA6 does a good job of working into it by giving those choices along with spells known (which is what was there before) as a control mechanic.
Going from spells known to spells know again is only really problematic if there are no good spells from which to choose and this isn't the case. Taking a spell a person finds out they don't like is either a DM discussion on how to fix it or temporary until leveling up. My advice is to not rely on the spells so much if there's a concern about spell selection and a poor choice would be to focus on skills more. The spell variety is iconic to bards but the real benefit to playing a bard is in using skills as an alternative to spell casting so that those spell slots last longer.