Now, which old subclass have you really wanted to love, but something about it always stopped you from going that route? And how would you change it using the UA7 format style?
(Formant AND style? Is that reduntant? Eh, details!)
Celestial because I don't want to be a healbot. Fathomless because although tentacles are cool, it's kind of one note and the rest of the "extras" are kinda dull, (like the current archfey UA)
The most controversial no-g for me is the hexblade. Because I don't want to play a caster as a martial. I don't mind ranged weapons with a caster, but I play a caster to you know, be a caster.
Now for the REAL hate:
If I were to o the hexblade, you'd get the shadow blade spell at will straight away to replace your eldritch blast, then probably misty step, then give you some extra options for your shadow blade such as getting 2 blades instead of one, and maybe have it give advantage to hit them till the end of your next turn. Finally then cap it off with an ability SIMILAR TO but much more powerful than, cloud of daggers. You conjure up a cube space filled with blades of black energy, dealing a crapton of damage to monsters in the area, can only cast 3x per day or whatever the the other subclasses get.
Because I don't want to play a caster as a martial. I don't mind ranged weapons with a caster, but I play a caster to you know, be a caster.
Bob! Look at what you did! *points at all the Githyanki Gish sadly drawing in the sand*
Okay, brainstorm time! Give me a few concrete examples on how Celestial and Fathomless could be made differently? There may be cake if they're very interesting and/or surprising. (She's lying!)
Because I don't want to play a caster as a martial. I don't mind ranged weapons with a caster, but I play a caster to you know, be a caster.
Bob! Look at what you did! *points at all the Githyanki Gish sadly drawing in the sand*
Okay, brainstorm time! Give me a few concrete examples on how Celestial and Fathomless could be made differently? There may be cake if they're very interesting and/or surprising. (She's lying!)
Oh I know the cake is a lie...
The celestial is easier. All the smites of the hexblade fit better here, and as spells they could be offered/given spells here, but I'd lean into some generic cleric traits for the features.. First subclass feature could just get cure wounds or healing words (first level casting only) as a free cast eat level 1 equal to warlock level.. just get rid of the dice resource.
for level 6 I like the radiant damage type given but I'd also give advantage on attacks against undead and fiends as a way to hearken back to the generic cleric's turn undead and the general war between celestials and fiends.
10th level hearken back to cleric's divine intervention with a set number (based on level like the current first ability) of dice (probably d4's) that can be added to your saves or attack rolls.
Level 14 is op and I wouldn't change it for the world.
Now there's a tickling idea, however... Having the Patron Spells go up to level 9, making the 6-9 selection available for Mystic Arcanum picks? Yeah, I can get behind that :)
Maybe Celestial's 6th-level feature could also come with a rider of inflicting a turn's worth of the frightened condition on undead or fiends damaged by a fire or radiance spell (Wisdom save negates)? That'd feel more like a mini-Turn Undead, right? Or, wait, do all undead get immunity to frightened? They probably do. Boo!
Keep the underwater breathing and swim speed for level 1. Level 6's cold is good but add lightning and give at level 1. This is juuuuuuust a little prelude to the fact that the ocean and aquatic creatures often have ties to the raging coastal storms. Keep level 1 tentacles.
Level 6 you start to take on traits of your patron. Your underwater speed increases another 15 feet and your skin starts to glisten with a slimy appearance that gives resistance/advantage against being grappled or the grappled condition. You also gain poisonous barbs on your body that do 1d4 poison damage (and what's it for the possible poisoned condition) when damaged by unarmed attacks. Raises to 2d4 at 10th. It's taking away some of the tentacles and still keeping the sea theme. I like more variations and although it's a lot of things they're situational.
I know I complained about tentacles, but sure keep the level 10.
Level 14 gets tricky. I want to give them summon elemental with the water type but it's a bit too close to the aberrant mind. I want to give them water travel in the form of an aquatic find greater steed, but the steeds are a bit lackluster unless you specialize in that form of combat/travel. I think they're close enough to give an idea as to what I would like.
The celestial is easier. All the smites of the hexblade fit better here, and as spells they could be offered/given spells here, but I'd lean into some generic cleric traits for the features.. First subclass feature could just get cure wounds or healing words (first level casting only) as a free cast eat level 1 equal to warlock level.. just get rid of the dice resource.
Also in your disdain for the Healing Light feature, one thing you might not be considering is that your suggestion to replace it with healing word is actually a nerf.
With Healing Light, you can still cast a leveled spell that same turn you use Healing Light. You're limited to casting a cantrip the same turn you use healing word. Additionally, Healing Light uses d6s, while healing word uses d4s. Finally, Healing Light lets you use multiple dice at once (up to your Charisma modifier), while 1st-level healing word does not. You're making the feature worse because you don't want to track a resource that isn't hard to track anyway.
Not going to argue there. You can bump the spell up a bit if you want to match, but I hate dice as resource.
Now there's a tickling idea, however... Having the Patron Spells go up to level 9, making the 6-9 selection available for Mystic Arcanum picks? Yeah, I can get behind that :)
Maybe Celestial's 6th-level feature could also come with a rider of inflicting a turn's worth of the frightened condition on undead or fiends damaged by a fire or radiance spell (Wisdom save negates)? That'd feel more like a mini-Turn Undead, right? Or, wait, do all undead get immunity to frightened? They probably do. Boo!
I'd have to look but that would be fine as a swap too.
Keep the underwater breathing and swim speed for level 1. Level 6's cold is good but add lightning and give at level 1. This is juuuuuuust a little prelude to the fact that the ocean and aquatic creatures often have ties to the raging coastal storms. Keep level 1 tentacles.
Level 6 you start to take on traits of your patron. Your underwater speed increases another 15 feet and your skin starts to glisten with a slimy appearance that gives resistance/advantage against being grappled or the grappled condition. You also gain poisonous barbs on your body that do 1d4 poison damage (and what's it for the possible poisoned condition) when damaged by unarmed attacks. Raises to 2d4 at 10th. It's taking away some of the tentacles and still keeping the sea theme. I like more variations and although it's a lot of things they're situational.
I know I complained about tentacles, but sure keep the level 10.
Level 14 gets tricky. I want to give them summon elemental with the water type but it's a bit too close to the aberrant mind. I want to give them water travel in the form of an aquatic find greater steed, but the steeds are a bit lackluster unless you specialize in that form of combat/travel. I think they're close enough to give an idea as to what I would like.
You're really earning that cake, Bob!
Although, I always had the impression that Fathomless was harkening to the endless depths and unknowable horrors that lurk beyond where the light can reach. Bringing in lightning tricks into the (cake) mix gives it more of a Tempestous feel, compared to the coiling dark that drowns both hope and hearts.
Thalassophobia or Tsunamis. The eternal question. Hmms...
Keep the underwater breathing and swim speed for level 1. Level 6's cold is good but add lightning and give at level 1. This is juuuuuuust a little prelude to the fact that the ocean and aquatic creatures often have ties to the raging coastal storms. Keep level 1 tentacles.
Level 6 you start to take on traits of your patron. Your underwater speed increases another 15 feet and your skin starts to glisten with a slimy appearance that gives resistance/advantage against being grappled or the grappled condition. You also gain poisonous barbs on your body that do 1d4 poison damage (and what's it for the possible poisoned condition) when damaged by unarmed attacks. Raises to 2d4 at 10th. It's taking away some of the tentacles and still keeping the sea theme. I like more variations and although it's a lot of things they're situational.
I know I complained about tentacles, but sure keep the level 10.
Level 14 gets tricky. I want to give them summon elemental with the water type but it's a bit too close to the aberrant mind. I want to give them water travel in the form of an aquatic find greater steed, but the steeds are a bit lackluster unless you specialize in that form of combat/travel. I think they're close enough to give an idea as to what I would like.
You're really earning that cake, Bob!
Although, I always had the impression that Fathomless was harkening to the endless depths and unknowable horrors that lurk beyond where the light can reach. Bringing in lightning tricks into the (cake) mix gives it more of a Tempestous feel, compared to the coiling dark that drowns both hope and hearts.
Thalassophobia or Tsunamis. The eternal question. Hmms...
The lightning resistance isn't a lot of storm flavor. I actually browsed some of the aquatic monsters for inspo. Lightning and thunder came up more often than I would have guessed. I can't remember the one that made me go with the poisonous spines (deep spawn or something).
It's actually the second lovecraftian themed warlock after the great old one, and this leans into the innsmouth residents transformation into frog like deep ones. It's a lot more flavorful than just tentacles and more tentacles....
LEVEL 3: CLAMMY HANDS Your patron bestows on you a set of truly, uncompromisingly clammy hands. As an action, you can inflict the frightened condition on a humanoid target, or the charmed condition on an aberration. They may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns to end this condition. At level 6 you may instead inflict the confused condition on the target, as your pallid palpatations usher them into madness.
After using this action a number of times equal to your Charisma, you must think long and hard about what you've just done. This can be done during a Long Rest.
LEVEL 3: CLAMMY HANDS Your patron bestows on you a set of truly, uncompromisingly clammy hands. As an action, you can inflict the frightened condition on a humanoid target, or the charmed condition on an aberration. They may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns to end this condition. At level 6 you may instead inflict the confused condition on the target, as your pallid palpatations usher them into madness.
After using this action a number of times equal to your Charisma, you must think long and hard about what you've just done. This can be done during a Long Rest.
Hey now, as much as I like it, D&D has a bit of a stigmatism where people think its playersare all likely to suffer from clammy hands..
Yesterday I tried the new Eldritch Knight, and I really liked it. We were a lvl 5 party for a one shoot, and the DM asked me to use the lvl 7 feature so we could test if using a cantrip instead of an attack broke the subclass or not. We didn't really feel like it broke anything, and it makes the Eldritch Knight feel more gish.
But that has also made me think that at lvl 5, when you get your multiattack, you should be able to do it. Obviously you can't gain a subclass feature at lvl5, but maybe you could at lvl3. And yes, it is true that it is weird that at lvl3 you gain something that you are not going to use until lvl5. However, it's also weird that you can't use your cantrips with multiattack until lvl 7. Well, maybe not weird, but a little annoying. If you think of your career as an Eldritch Knight, you're going to be using booming blade or green flame blade up to lvl5. Then you will have to choose between continuing to use those cantrips, or multiattacking up to lvl 7. I don't know, in my opinion the subclass loses a bit of flavor from lvl5 to lvl7.
Maybe at lvl7 they could give you something else. I don't know, spend a spell slot to charge your weapon with arcane energy and produce some effect.
Now, which old subclass have you really wanted to love, but something about it always stopped you from going that route? And how would you change it using the UA7 format style?
(Formant AND style? Is that reduntant? Eh, details!)
I like the Celestial Warlock, but Hexblade had armor. With Lightly Armored as a feat accessible through Lessons of the First Ones, and Hex Warrior being rolled into the PotB, Celestial becomes almost the default option.
I really like the idea of celestial pact of the blade aka the paladin with extra steps. But the level 6 feature doesnt make much sense for me if i want to play melee its completly useless.
I really like the idea of celestial pact of the blade aka the paladin with extra steps. But the level 6 feature doesnt make much sense for me if i want to play melee its completly useless.
Well, the 6th level feature adds CHA damage on Radiant and Fire spells, right? So... Green Flame Blade wants to play!
And if you're inclined to really lean into the holy warrior bit, you could grab Pact of the Tome later on (It's your sacred texts, of course), and mooch the Word of Radiance for a mini AoE consecration.
"Oh, poor fools, if only you could be as grossly incandescent as I! Bask in my radiance, I command you!"
There's also stuff like Guidance and Spare the Dying while you're already mucking around in their spell-lists. Maybe pick up Ceremony for one of your rituals, and start wedding folks with the power entrusted in you?
I really like the idea of celestial pact of the blade aka the paladin with extra steps. But the level 6 feature doesnt make much sense for me if i want to play melee its completly useless.
Well, the 6th level feature adds CHA damage on Radiant and Fire spells, right? So... Green Flame Blade wants to play!
And if you're inclined to really lean into the holy warrior bit, you could grab Pact of the Tome later on (It's your sacred texts, of course), and mooch the Word of Radiance for a mini AoE consecration.
"Oh, poor fools, if only you could be as grossly incandescent as I! Bask in my radiance, I command you!"
There's also stuff like Guidance and Spare the Dying while you're already mucking around in their spell-lists. Maybe pick up Ceremony for one of your rituals, and start wedding folks with the power entrusted in you?
With thristing blade i have two and later 3 attacks, also lifedrinker. Choosing green flame blade would mean to ignore all these blade features or am i missing something? So overall it feels like i have to try hard to make this feature contribute to the build and so not worth it.
That's fair. Not all subclass features are likely to mesh perfectly with every possible playstyle. This one is clearly more intended for blastery-flavoured warlocks.
Now, if only there was a future invocation that built on Thirsting Blade to give it the Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight treatment to weave in a cantrip in the attacks, that'd be just awesomecakes :)
That's fair. Not all subclass features are likely to mesh perfectly with every possible playstyle. This one is clearly more intended for blastery-flavoured warlocks.
Now, if only there was a future invocation that built on Thirsting Blade to give it the Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight treatment to weave in a cantrip in the attacks, that'd be just awesomecakes :)
Hey, WotC? Take note here, okay?
Last days in also saw the idea of using the healing dice from celestial optional as a smite. This could work with all kinds of attack and would also be in line with what they did with archfey where the level 6 feature improves the level 3 feature. But im not so deep into the math to get a feeling if this would break the class.
I really like the idea of celestial pact of the blade aka the paladin with extra steps. But the level 6 feature doesnt make much sense for me if i want to play melee its completly useless.
Well, the 6th level feature adds CHA damage on Radiant and Fire spells, right? So... Green Flame Blade wants to play!
And if you're inclined to really lean into the holy warrior bit, you could grab Pact of the Tome later on (It's your sacred texts, of course), and mooch the Word of Radiance for a mini AoE consecration.
"Oh, poor fools, if only you could be as grossly incandescent as I! Bask in my radiance, I command you!"
There's also stuff like Guidance and Spare the Dying while you're already mucking around in their spell-lists. Maybe pick up Ceremony for one of your rituals, and start wedding folks with the power entrusted in you?
With thristing blade i have two and later 3 attacks, also lifedrinker. Choosing green flame blade would mean to ignore all these blade features or am i missing something? So overall it feels like i have to try hard to make this feature contribute to the build and so not worth it.
Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade, besides being useful before 5th level, can be used later if you pick War Caster as one of your feats as it lets you to cast a spell instead of doing an AoO.
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Warlock enthusiast.
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Celestial because I don't want to be a healbot. Fathomless because although tentacles are cool, it's kind of one note and the rest of the "extras" are kinda dull, (like the current archfey UA)
The most controversial no-g for me is the hexblade. Because I don't want to play a caster as a martial. I don't mind ranged weapons with a caster, but I play a caster to you know, be a caster.
Now for the REAL hate:
If I were to o the hexblade, you'd get the shadow blade spell at will straight away to replace your eldritch blast, then probably misty step, then give you some extra options for your shadow blade such as getting 2 blades instead of one, and maybe have it give advantage to hit them till the end of your next turn. Finally then cap it off with an ability SIMILAR TO but much more powerful than, cloud of daggers. You conjure up a cube space filled with blades of black energy, dealing a crapton of damage to monsters in the area, can only cast 3x per day or whatever the the other subclasses get.
Bob! Look at what you did! *points at all the Githyanki Gish sadly drawing in the sand*
Okay, brainstorm time! Give me a few concrete examples on how Celestial and Fathomless could be made differently? There may be cake if they're very interesting and/or surprising. (She's lying!)
Oh I know the cake is a lie...
The celestial is easier. All the smites of the hexblade fit better here, and as spells they could be offered/given spells here, but I'd lean into some generic cleric traits for the features.. First subclass feature could just get cure wounds or healing words (first level casting only) as a free cast eat level 1 equal to warlock level.. just get rid of the dice resource.
for level 6 I like the radiant damage type given but I'd also give advantage on attacks against undead and fiends as a way to hearken back to the generic cleric's turn undead and the general war between celestials and fiends.
10th level hearken back to cleric's divine intervention with a set number (based on level like the current first ability) of dice (probably d4's) that can be added to your saves or attack rolls.
Level 14 is op and I wouldn't change it for the world.
Fathom needs some time to think about...
) ( ) ( (^)(^)(^)(^) _i__i__i__i_ (____________) |####|>o<|###| (____________)
But you need to share it with those Githyanki, mind you!
Now there's a tickling idea, however... Having the Patron Spells go up to level 9, making the 6-9 selection available for Mystic Arcanum picks? Yeah, I can get behind that :)
Maybe Celestial's 6th-level feature could also come with a rider of inflicting a turn's worth of the frightened condition on undead or fiends damaged by a fire or radiance spell (Wisdom save negates)? That'd feel more like a mini-Turn Undead, right? Or, wait, do all undead get immunity to frightened? They probably do. Boo!
Fathomless.
Keep the underwater breathing and swim speed for level 1. Level 6's cold is good but add lightning and give at level 1. This is juuuuuuust a little prelude to the fact that the ocean and aquatic creatures often have ties to the raging coastal storms. Keep level 1 tentacles.
Level 6 you start to take on traits of your patron. Your underwater speed increases another 15 feet and your skin starts to glisten with a slimy appearance that gives resistance/advantage against being grappled or the grappled condition. You also gain poisonous barbs on your body that do 1d4 poison damage (and what's it for the possible poisoned condition) when damaged by unarmed attacks. Raises to 2d4 at 10th. It's taking away some of the tentacles and still keeping the sea theme. I like more variations and although it's a lot of things they're situational.
I know I complained about tentacles, but sure keep the level 10.
Level 14 gets tricky. I want to give them summon elemental with the water type but it's a bit too close to the aberrant mind. I want to give them water travel in the form of an aquatic find greater steed, but the steeds are a bit lackluster unless you specialize in that form of combat/travel. I think they're close enough to give an idea as to what I would like.
Not going to argue there. You can bump the spell up a bit if you want to match, but I hate dice as resource.
I'd have to look but that would be fine as a swap too.
You're really earning that cake, Bob!
Although, I always had the impression that Fathomless was harkening to the endless depths and unknowable horrors that lurk beyond where the light can reach. Bringing in lightning tricks into the (cake) mix gives it more of a Tempestous feel, compared to the coiling dark that drowns both hope and hearts.
Thalassophobia or Tsunamis. The eternal question. Hmms...
The lightning resistance isn't a lot of storm flavor. I actually browsed some of the aquatic monsters for inspo. Lightning and thunder came up more often than I would have guessed. I can't remember the one that made me go with the poisonous spines (deep spawn or something).
It's actually the second lovecraftian themed warlock after the great old one, and this leans into the innsmouth residents transformation into frog like deep ones. It's a lot more flavorful than just tentacles and more tentacles....
Fathomless Warlock
LEVEL 3: CLAMMY HANDS
Your patron bestows on you a set of truly, uncompromisingly clammy hands. As an action, you can inflict the frightened condition on a humanoid target, or the charmed condition on an aberration. They may make a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of their turns to end this condition. At level 6 you may instead inflict the confused condition on the target, as your pallid palpatations usher them into madness.
After using this action a number of times equal to your Charisma, you must think long and hard about what you've just done. This can be done during a Long Rest.
Hey now, as much as I like it, D&D has a bit of a stigmatism where people think its players are all likely to suffer from clammy hands..
Didn't you hear Chaos earlier? There's no shame in having shortcoming as long as you recognise them :)
Yesterday I tried the new Eldritch Knight, and I really liked it. We were a lvl 5 party for a one shoot, and the DM asked me to use the lvl 7 feature so we could test if using a cantrip instead of an attack broke the subclass or not. We didn't really feel like it broke anything, and it makes the Eldritch Knight feel more gish.
But that has also made me think that at lvl 5, when you get your multiattack, you should be able to do it. Obviously you can't gain a subclass feature at lvl5, but maybe you could at lvl3. And yes, it is true that it is weird that at lvl3 you gain something that you are not going to use until lvl5. However, it's also weird that you can't use your cantrips with multiattack until lvl 7. Well, maybe not weird, but a little annoying. If you think of your career as an Eldritch Knight, you're going to be using booming blade or green flame blade up to lvl5. Then you will have to choose between continuing to use those cantrips, or multiattacking up to lvl 7. I don't know, in my opinion the subclass loses a bit of flavor from lvl5 to lvl7.
Maybe at lvl7 they could give you something else. I don't know, spend a spell slot to charge your weapon with arcane energy and produce some effect.
I really like the idea of celestial pact of the blade aka the paladin with extra steps. But the level 6 feature doesnt make much sense for me if i want to play melee its completly useless.
Well, the 6th level feature adds CHA damage on Radiant and Fire spells, right? So... Green Flame Blade wants to play!
And if you're inclined to really lean into the holy warrior bit, you could grab Pact of the Tome later on (It's your sacred texts, of course), and mooch the Word of Radiance for a mini AoE consecration.
"Oh, poor fools, if only you could be as grossly incandescent as I! Bask in my radiance, I command you!"
There's also stuff like Guidance and Spare the Dying while you're already mucking around in their spell-lists. Maybe pick up Ceremony for one of your rituals, and start wedding folks with the power entrusted in you?
With thristing blade i have two and later 3 attacks, also lifedrinker. Choosing green flame blade would mean to ignore all these blade features or am i missing something? So overall it feels like i have to try hard to make this feature contribute to the build and so not worth it.
That's fair. Not all subclass features are likely to mesh perfectly with every possible playstyle. This one is clearly more intended for blastery-flavoured warlocks.
Now, if only there was a future invocation that built on Thirsting Blade to give it the Bladesinger/Eldritch Knight treatment to weave in a cantrip in the attacks, that'd be just awesomecakes :)
Hey, WotC? Take note here, okay?
Last days in also saw the idea of using the healing dice from celestial optional as a smite. This could work with all kinds of attack and would also be in line with what they did with archfey where the level 6 feature improves the level 3 feature. But im not so deep into the math to get a feeling if this would break the class.
Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade, besides being useful before 5th level, can be used later if you pick War Caster as one of your feats as it lets you to cast a spell instead of doing an AoO.
Vegan. Punk. Metal. Queer. Comics. Videogames.
Warlock enthusiast.