This subclass and the new magic items for unarmed strikes and improvised weapons that are """""supposed""""" to appear in a future UA (it wouldn't surprise me if WotC simply ignored their own announcements), makes me think that there may be new rules for equipment damage/destruction (I don't know if this was a thing in previous editions), or something like a durability gauge/bar that indicates how much before that weapon/magic focus breaks.
I very very very very much doubt it.
Agreed. No way do they do that. Too much bookkeeping.
agreed, as well, though not so much because of bookkeeping. equipment wear and tear is a nightmare mechanic for D&D. The simplest format is a conditional effect — the way that people can be stunned, paralyzed, blinded, etc. but on gear instead — with effects being a reduction in practical usefulness (see Rust Monster). Most conditions would be basic: fire, cold, electric, crushing, acid, etc. However, that series of conditions gets rapidly out of hand and runs counter to core design principles (simplification, specifically).
in 1e, the primary mechanism was that items had a saving throw. It conflicted at times with the also present durability sub system.
I tend to apply breakage to fumbles if in use, and if damage to PC or NPC is significant, I might toss it in for drama, color, and to drive down funds.
like a “quality” system, breakage adds depth but has high backend overhead that is often too meta.
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A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
If, as you stated, an improvised weapon is neither melee nor ranged, it does not have a weapon type and the ability score it uses is undefined. However, if you throw an improvised weapon it must have the thrown property because it is the thrown property that allows you to throw a weapon.
I already addressed this in the same post you're quoting from. The ability score used for an improvised weapon is dependent on what attack you make with the weapon.
Note this is also true of ALL weapons. You can indeed make Ranged attacks with Melee weapons and Melee attacks with Ranged weapons. If it's a ranged attack it uses dexterity, a melee attack uses strength. The difference is that attacks outside of the weapon's category (ranged attack with Melee weapon, melee attack with Ranged weapon) are treated as improvised and done without proficiency by default. The Thrown and Finesse properties grant exceptions to this generic rule (which appears on page 194 of the Player's Handbook).
I know appeals to tweets from Jeremy Crawford aren't as in vogue as they used to be but the rules designer of D&D basically spells it out here
Improvised weapons are 1D4 damage (PHB) and jump to 1D12 at level 15 (Playtest 7)
How?
per 5e, an object that 'bears no resemblance to a weapon' is 1d4, so more often a d6 or d8 (depending on what weapon it ends up resembling). and it jumps to 1d12+PB two-hand. oh, plus advantage (level 10+). i guess callouses finally built up to ignore splinters and such is why?
i'm just confused why a brawler becomes proficient (an expert even!) at level 3 but doesn't add proficiency bonus until level 15. [edit, oh, whoops: 5e does say that if the improvised weapon resembles a weapon you're proficient in, (and your dm is in a good mood) then you do add the PB. it just doesn't spell that out in brawler's level 3 and later does spell it out in brawler level 15. weird.]
Improvised weapons are 1D4 damage (PHB) and jump to 1D12 at level 15 (Playtest 7)
How?
per 5e, an object that 'bears no resemblance to a weapon' is 1d4, so more often a d6 or d8 (depending on what weapon it ends up resembling). and it jumps to 1d12+PB two-hand. oh, plus advantage (level 10+). i guess callouses finally built up to ignore splinters and such is why?
i'm just confused why a brawler becomes proficient (an expert even!) at level 3 but doesn't add proficiency bonus until level 15. [edit, oh, whoops: 5e does say that if the improvised weapon resembles a weapon you're proficient in, (and your dm is in a good mood) then you do add the PB. it just doesn't spell that out in brawler's level 3 and later does spell it out in brawler level 15. weird.]
Improvised Expert at level 3 grants you proficiency with Improvised Weapons (It's the first line of the feature). This works the same as any weapon proficiency does, allowing you to add your Proficiency Bonus to Attack Rolls (not damage rolls) you make with that kind of weapon.
Improvised Specialist at level 15 allows you to add your Proficiency Bonus to Damage Rolls you make with Improvised Weapons. Adding your Proficiency Bonus to Damage Rolls is a much rarer feature than proficiency with a weapon.
An improvised weapon is neither Melee nor Ranged it lacks those categorizations. Improvised weapons also have no weapon properties on their own. By default throwing an improvised weapon does not give it the Thrown Property. It takes a specific feature (such as Improvised Expert) to imbue a weapon or object with a property it doesn't already have.
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Note: This rule isn't specifying the category of weapon used for the attack but the kind of attack being made. 5e is annoyingly unclear with its terminology sometimes.
Ah! Interesting! Excellent arguments.
I didn't realize they were not defined as melee or ranged weapons, and I think you might be right, that it doesn't actually grant the thrown property. Since you're making a ranged weapon attack if you throw them, they would, indeed, use Dexterity.
That is super whack.
EDIT: The reason I thought throwing an improvised weapon granted the thrown property was the phrase "an improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet." Calling it an improvised thrown weapon implies it gains the thrown property, just how the game uses the phrase "heavy weapon", which means a weapon with the heavy property.
I think this vagueness, once again, makes it up to DM interpretation. Yet another reason the improvised weapon rules need rewriting.
Improvised weapons are 1D4 damage (PHB) and jump to 1D12 at level 15 (Playtest 7)
How?
per 5e, an object that 'bears no resemblance to a weapon' is 1d4, so more often a d6 or d8 (depending on what weapon it ends up resembling). and it jumps to 1d12+PB two-hand. oh, plus advantage (level 10+). i guess callouses finally built up to ignore splinters and such is why?
i'm just confused why a brawler becomes proficient (an expert even!) at level 3 but doesn't add proficiency bonus until level 15. [edit, oh, whoops: 5e does say that if the improvised weapon resembles a weapon you're proficient in, (and your dm is in a good mood) then you do add the PB. it just doesn't spell that out in brawler's level 3 and later does spell it out in brawler level 15. weird.]
it adds proficiency bonus to attacks(accuracy) at 3.
at 3 you roll attacks with d20+mod+pb
at 15 it adds proficiency bonus to damage, which is normally not the case for weapons ever. at 15 you do d4(dice)+5(pb)+5(mod) minimum damage.
An improvised weapon is neither Melee nor Ranged it lacks those categorizations. Improvised weapons also have no weapon properties on their own. By default throwing an improvised weapon does not give it the Thrown Property. It takes a specific feature (such as Improvised Expert) to imbue a weapon or object with a property it doesn't already have.
A DM might treat an improvised weapon as having a Melee/Ranged categorization or as having the thrown property if it resembles an appropriate weapon on the weapons table. But in the case where an improvised weapon doesn't resemble a weapon with the thrown property, throwing an improvised weapon would require Dexterity.
To determine what ability modifier to use with the improvised weapon you default to the generic rules regarding weapon attacks.
Ability Modifier. The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Note: This rule isn't specifying the category of weapon used for the attack but the kind of attack being made. 5e is annoyingly unclear with its terminology sometimes.
Ah! Interesting! Excellent arguments.
I didn't realize they were not defined as melee or ranged weapons, and I think you might be right, that it doesn't actually grant the thrown property. Since you're making a ranged weapon attack if you throw them, they would, indeed, use Dexterity.
That is super whack.
EDIT: The reason I thought throwing an improvised weapon granted the thrown property was the phrase "an improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet." Calling it an improvised thrown weapon implies it gains the thrown property, just how the game uses the phrase "heavy weapon", which means a weapon with the heavy property.
I think this vagueness, once again, makes it up to DM interpretation. Yet another reason the improvised weapon rules need rewriting.
They do seem to be using capitalisation to indicate game terms more. Any object may be thrown, but Improvised Expert makes it Thrown.
Based on what we have seen, does the brawler get any defensive help. Monks get unarmored defence and deflect missile to toughen them up. If not then brawler will struggle if they are not armoured at which point, it would be easier to just use weapons.
Fighters already have access to heavy armor and shields, which the Brawler still gets to use, so I think they're just fine. If you want to go unarmored, then yeah, you'll probably want a level of Barbarian. Maybe there will be magic items to support the unarmored fighter aesthetic.
Your Unarmed Strikes will be less powerful if you're using a shield, I suppose, but you can dual-wield with your shield if you want by giving it Light. That would be cool if the Light didn't already allow everyone to use Light weapons with Shields, though. Currently, you can attack with your shortsword, drop it, then draw/pick up another light weapon with Nick and attack with that for free; it just has to be a different weapon, not a different hand, which is super goofy.
Based on what we have seen, does the brawler get any defensive help. Monks get unarmored defence and deflect missile to toughen them up. If not then brawler will struggle if they are not armoured at which point, it would be easier to just use weapons.
The Brawler gets the full Armor proficiency and choices that any Fighter gets. Their abilities are about "unarmed" and "improvised", not "unarmored."
My thoughts (which are mostly just a copy-over from the Fighter version, with a couple small additions)
Barbarian Subclass: Brawler (adapted from Play Test 7 fighter subclass)
3rd Level
Fighting Style: You have the "Unarmed" Fighting Style, if you don't already have it.If you do, you may add another Fighting Style that you don't have already.
Unarmed Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
Improvised Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
6th Level
Grappling Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 7th level subclass ability of the same name.
Throwing Dishes: If you chose the Thrown property for Improvised Expert, while you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an improvised thrown weapon attack.
10th Level
Dirty Fighting: same as the Brawler Fighter 10th level subclass ability of the same name.
Fists of Rage: While you are in Rage, your Rage takes on a mystical level of power.Your Unarmed Strikes deal "magical" damage.
Sucker Punch: While you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an Unarmed Strike.
14th Level
Improvised Specialist: same as the Brawler Fighter 15th level subclass ability of the same name.
Unarmed Specialist:same as the Brawler Fighter 18th level subclass ability of the same name.
Feat: Fighting Style: Unarmed (1st-Level Feat) Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No
For all purposes your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to be simple melee weapons with the Light and Finesse properties with which you are proficient.Whether or not you are considered armed vs unarmed, considered to be "wielding" this weapon, and/or have it "in hand," is up to you at any given moment.
Any feature, ability, etc. that works with/on a non-specific melee weapon and/or simple melee weapon works with/on the damage option of your Unarmed Strikes.Your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to have sufficient monetary value to satisfy any spell component requirement.(so, the Magic Weapon spell will work, the Shillelagh cantrip will not; Battle Master maneuvers will work)
The damage option of your Unarmed Strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage unless you have a feature that replaces it with a larger die and/or modifies the damage type for your unarmed strikes.
Each appendage you have that can make attacks or wield weapons (when not wielding a weapon nor shield), and not holding any other object, counts as a "different light weapon" for the Light weapon extra attack with an Unarmed Strike.
All aspects of your Unarmed Strikes (including Save DCs when you Grapple or Shove someone else, and which stat you use when saving against a Grapple or Shove being used against you) can be based on your Strength or Dexterity.Not just the Attack and Damage modifiers.
My thoughts (which are mostly just a copy-over from the Fighter version, with a couple small additions)
Barbarian Subclass: Brawler (adapted from Play Test 7 fighter subclass)
3rd Level
Fighting Style: You have the "Unarmed" Fighting Style, if you don't already have it.If you do, you may add another Fighting Style that you don't have already.
Unarmed Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
Improvised Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
6th Level
Grappling Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 7th level subclass ability of the same name.
Throwing Dishes: If you chose the Thrown property for Improvised Expert, while you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an improvised thrown weapon attack.
10th Level
Dirty Fighting: same as the Brawler Fighter 10th level subclass ability of the same name.
Fists of Rage: While you are in Rage, your Rage takes on a mystical level of power.Your Unarmed Strikes deal "magical" damage.
Sucker Punch: While you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an Unarmed Strike.
14th Level
Improvised Specialist: same as the Brawler Fighter 15th level subclass ability of the same name.
Unarmed Specialist:same as the Brawler Fighter 18th level subclass ability of the same name.
Feat: Fighting Style: Unarmed (1st-Level Feat) Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No
For all purposes your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to be simple melee weapons with the Light and Finesse properties with which you are proficient.Whether or not you are considered armed vs unarmed, considered to be "wielding" this weapon, and/or have it "in hand," is up to you at any given moment.
Any feature, ability, etc. that works with/on a non-specific melee weapon and/or simple melee weapon works with/on the damage option of your Unarmed Strikes.Your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to have sufficient monetary value to satisfy any spell component requirement.(so, the Magic Weapon spell will work, the Shillelagh cantrip will not; Battle Master maneuvers will work)
The damage option of your Unarmed Strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage unless you have a feature that replaces it with a larger die and/or modifies the damage type for your unarmed strikes.
Each appendage you have that can make attacks or wield weapons (when not wielding a weapon nor shield), and not holding any other object, counts as a "different light weapon" for the Light weapon extra attack with an Unarmed Strike.
All aspects of your Unarmed Strikes (including Save DCs when you Grapple or Shove someone else, and which stat you use when saving against a Grapple or Shove being used against you) can be based on your Strength or Dexterity.Not just the Attack and Damage modifiers.
Your fighting style makes some of the features unnecessary. You can pretty much already do Sucker Punch since each body part is already a separate light weapon. I guess it’s allowing you to use a non light weapon for your attacks then use an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, but that’s not a great feature. Also Unarmed Expert already lets you make unarmed strike as a bonus action so you have to clarify it more. 5eR is moving away from magical damage so that Rage damage type should probably be force, psychic or thunder.
My thoughts (which are mostly just a copy-over from the Fighter version, with a couple small additions)
Barbarian Subclass: Brawler (adapted from Play Test 7 fighter subclass)
3rd Level
Fighting Style: You have the "Unarmed" Fighting Style, if you don't already have it.If you do, you may add another Fighting Style that you don't have already.
Unarmed Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
Improvised Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 3rd level subclass ability of the same name.
6th Level
Grappling Expert: same as the Brawler Fighter 7th level subclass ability of the same name.
Throwing Dishes: If you chose the Thrown property for Improvised Expert, while you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an improvised thrown weapon attack.
10th Level
Dirty Fighting: same as the Brawler Fighter 10th level subclass ability of the same name.
Fists of Rage: While you are in Rage, your Rage takes on a mystical level of power.Your Unarmed Strikes deal "magical" damage.
Sucker Punch: While you are in Rage, you can use a Bonus Action to make an Unarmed Strike.
14th Level
Improvised Specialist: same as the Brawler Fighter 15th level subclass ability of the same name.
Unarmed Specialist:same as the Brawler Fighter 18th level subclass ability of the same name.
Feat: Fighting Style: Unarmed (1st-Level Feat) Prerequisite: None Repeatable: No
For all purposes your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to be simple melee weapons with the Light and Finesse properties with which you are proficient.Whether or not you are considered armed vs unarmed, considered to be "wielding" this weapon, and/or have it "in hand," is up to you at any given moment.
Any feature, ability, etc. that works with/on a non-specific melee weapon and/or simple melee weapon works with/on the damage option of your Unarmed Strikes.Your Unarmed Strikes are also considered to have sufficient monetary value to satisfy any spell component requirement.(so, the Magic Weapon spell will work, the Shillelagh cantrip will not; Battle Master maneuvers will work)
The damage option of your Unarmed Strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage unless you have a feature that replaces it with a larger die and/or modifies the damage type for your unarmed strikes.
Each appendage you have that can make attacks or wield weapons (when not wielding a weapon nor shield), and not holding any other object, counts as a "different light weapon" for the Light weapon extra attack with an Unarmed Strike.
All aspects of your Unarmed Strikes (including Save DCs when you Grapple or Shove someone else, and which stat you use when saving against a Grapple or Shove being used against you) can be based on your Strength or Dexterity.Not just the Attack and Damage modifiers.
Your fighting style makes some of the features unnecessary. You can pretty much already do Sucker Punch since each body part is already a separate light weapon. I guess it’s allowing you to use a non light weapon for your attacks then use an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, but that’s not a great feature.
The Fighting Style isn't just written around the Brawler. It's part of a larger document I was already working on. So the two aren't intended to have perfect synergy.
Also Unarmed Expert already lets you make unarmed strike as a bonus action so you have to clarify it more.
Grappling Expert gives you a Bonus Action unarmed strike, but you can only use it with a Grapple or Shove. It doesn't let you use it for the "damage" version of an Unarmed Strike. "Sucker Punch" extends that to be any Unarmed Strike.
5eR is moving away from magical damage so that Rage damage type should probably be force, psychic or thunder.
They way they're doing things, from document to document, I am probably going to hedge my bets by keeping "magical" in there, but adding a choice of other damage types.
If you have Nick, you could move the Light weapon attack to the Attack Action .. and ALSO Sucker Punch as a Bonus Action. So you could effectively do 4 unarmed strikes (3 with your Strength Mod to damage) in a turn.
Bonus Action: 1 from Sucker Punch Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick
And, since I'm going to suggest ALSO giving that Fighting Style to the Monk at 1st level... they also can do the same thing with their unarmed strikes (only it isn't "Sucker Punch"). Potentially as many as 5 with Flurry of Blows (but only 4 with Dex Mod bonus to damage).
Bonus Action: 2 from Flurry of Blows Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick.
If you have Nick, you could move the Light weapon attack to the Attack Action .. and ALSO Sucker Punch as a Bonus Action. So you could effectively do 4 unarmed strikes (3 with your Strength Mod to damage) in a turn.
Bonus Action: 1 from Sucker Punch Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick
And, since I'm going to suggest ALSO giving that Fighting Style to the Monk at 1st level... they also can do the same thing with their unarmed strikes (only it isn't "Sucker Punch"). Potentially as many as 5 with Flurry of Blows (but only 4 with Dex Mod bonus to damage).
Bonus Action: 2 from Flurry of Blows Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick.
Because of the proposed magical items we might be getting into the over powered territory. It’s why I would rather give a damage boost than more attacks. It’s far easier to have consistent math with a damage boost. More attacks is an optimizers dream. HM and Hex effect more attacks and change the dpr math. Reckless attack with 4 attacks a round with brutal critical needs to be looked at. I got a feeling it’s going to move bar too much.
So something I find kind of odd is the fact that the 'Tavern Brawler' feat really clashes with the design of the Brawler class. The feat and subclass both provide most of the same benefits so taking both of them is less then optimal. What's most backwards is that if you start from level 1 and WANT to play as a Brawler Tavern Brawler would likely be the feat you'd want to take.
Perhaps instead of having "Unarmed Expert" we have a feature that grants the Tavern Brawler feat (or a different background feat if you already have a feat). The damage of Tavern Brawler's unarmed strikes probably needed a mild buff anyway and that solves at least one of the weird thing this class does.
Huh. Yeah, you're right. The Damage Rerolls still works well for your d6/d8 damage, and Shove is still a good option, but Furniture as Weapons, which guarantees d8 damage with two hands just doesn't qualify for any of the Brawler's features, since those only work for Improvised Weapons, while Tavern Brawler lets you treat furniture as actual weapons, rather than modifying how improvised weapons work for you.
Hopefully we'll see a redesign. Tavern Brawler is super slick and very clear about how it works, just explicitly letting you treat things as actual weapons. Still bad damage compared to weapons, but slick design.
Tavern Brawler Accustomed to brawling, you gain the following benefits:
Enhanced Unarmed Strike. When you hit with your Unarmed Strike* and deal damage, you can deal Bludgeoning Damage equal to 1d4 + your Strength modifier, instead of the normal damage of an Unarmed Strike.
Damage Rerolls. Whenever you roll a damage die for your Unarmed Strike, you can reroll the die if it rolls a 1, and you must use the new roll.
Shove. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack Action on your turn, you can deal damage to the target and also push it 5 feet away. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
Furniture as Weapons. You can wield furniture as a Weapon, using the rules of the Greatclub for Small or Medium furniture and the rules of the Club for Tiny furniture.
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agreed, as well, though not so much because of bookkeeping. equipment wear and tear is a nightmare mechanic for D&D.
The simplest format is a conditional effect — the way that people can be stunned, paralyzed, blinded, etc. but on gear instead — with effects being a reduction in practical usefulness (see Rust Monster). Most conditions would be basic: fire, cold, electric, crushing, acid, etc. However, that series of conditions gets rapidly out of hand and runs counter to core design principles (simplification, specifically).
in 1e, the primary mechanism was that items had a saving throw. It conflicted at times with the also present durability sub system.
I tend to apply breakage to fumbles if in use, and if damage to PC or NPC is significant, I might toss it in for drama, color, and to drive down funds.
like a “quality” system, breakage adds depth but has high backend overhead that is often too meta.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I already addressed this in the same post you're quoting from. The ability score used for an improvised weapon is dependent on what attack you make with the weapon.
Note this is also true of ALL weapons. You can indeed make Ranged attacks with Melee weapons and Melee attacks with Ranged weapons. If it's a ranged attack it uses dexterity, a melee attack uses strength. The difference is that attacks outside of the weapon's category (ranged attack with Melee weapon, melee attack with Ranged weapon) are treated as improvised and done without proficiency by default. The Thrown and Finesse properties grant exceptions to this generic rule (which appears on page 194 of the Player's Handbook).
I know appeals to tweets from Jeremy Crawford aren't as in vogue as they used to be but the rules designer of D&D basically spells it out here
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/956963278093078528
This is the same interpretation I'm using.
per 5e, an object that 'bears no resemblance to a weapon' is 1d4, so more often a d6 or d8 (depending on what weapon it ends up resembling). and it jumps to 1d12+PB two-hand. oh, plus advantage (level 10+). i guess callouses finally built up to ignore splinters and such is why?
i'm just confused why a brawler becomes proficient (an expert even!) at level 3 but doesn't add proficiency bonus until level 15. [edit, oh, whoops: 5e does say that if the improvised weapon resembles a weapon you're proficient in, (and your dm is in a good mood) then you do add the PB. it just doesn't spell that out in brawler's level 3 and later does spell it out in brawler level 15. weird.]
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Improvised Expert at level 3 grants you proficiency with Improvised Weapons (It's the first line of the feature). This works the same as any weapon proficiency does, allowing you to add your Proficiency Bonus to Attack Rolls (not damage rolls) you make with that kind of weapon.
Improvised Specialist at level 15 allows you to add your Proficiency Bonus to Damage Rolls you make with Improvised Weapons. Adding your Proficiency Bonus to Damage Rolls is a much rarer feature than proficiency with a weapon.
Ah! Interesting! Excellent arguments.
I didn't realize they were not defined as melee or ranged weapons, and I think you might be right, that it doesn't actually grant the thrown property. Since you're making a ranged weapon attack if you throw them, they would, indeed, use Dexterity.
That is super whack.
EDIT: The reason I thought throwing an improvised weapon granted the thrown property was the phrase "an improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet." Calling it an improvised thrown weapon implies it gains the thrown property, just how the game uses the phrase "heavy weapon", which means a weapon with the heavy property.
I think this vagueness, once again, makes it up to DM interpretation. Yet another reason the improvised weapon rules need rewriting.
100% these rules should be given a couple of editing passes for clarity.
it adds proficiency bonus to attacks(accuracy) at 3.
at 3 you roll attacks with d20+mod+pb
at 15 it adds proficiency bonus to damage, which is normally not the case for weapons ever. at 15 you do d4(dice)+5(pb)+5(mod) minimum damage.
They do seem to be using capitalisation to indicate game terms more. Any object may be thrown, but Improvised Expert makes it Thrown.
Based on what we have seen, does the brawler get any defensive help. Monks get unarmored defence and deflect missile to toughen them up. If not then brawler will struggle if they are not armoured at which point, it would be easier to just use weapons.
Fighters already have access to heavy armor and shields, which the Brawler still gets to use, so I think they're just fine. If you want to go unarmored, then yeah, you'll probably want a level of Barbarian. Maybe there will be magic items to support the unarmored fighter aesthetic.
Your Unarmed Strikes will be less powerful if you're using a shield, I suppose, but you can dual-wield with your shield if you want by giving it Light. That would be cool if the Light didn't already allow everyone to use Light weapons with Shields, though. Currently, you can attack with your shortsword, drop it, then draw/pick up another light weapon with Nick and attack with that for free; it just has to be a different weapon, not a different hand, which is super goofy.
Boy, have I got the perfect magical weapon for y’all. https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/6886911-steel-folding-chair
The Brawler gets the full Armor proficiency and choices that any Fighter gets. Their abilities are about "unarmed" and "improvised", not "unarmored."
So, your Brawler could be wearing full plate.
My thoughts (which are mostly just a copy-over from the Fighter version, with a couple small additions)
Barbarian Subclass: Brawler (adapted from Play Test 7 fighter subclass)
Feat: Fighting Style: Unarmed
(1st-Level Feat)
Prerequisite: None
Repeatable: No
Your fighting style makes some of the features unnecessary. You can pretty much already do Sucker Punch since each body part is already a separate light weapon. I guess it’s allowing you to use a non light weapon for your attacks then use an Unarmed Strike as a bonus action, but that’s not a great feature. Also Unarmed Expert already lets you make unarmed strike as a bonus action so you have to clarify it more. 5eR is moving away from magical damage so that Rage damage type should probably be force, psychic or thunder.
The Fighting Style isn't just written around the Brawler. It's part of a larger document I was already working on. So the two aren't intended to have perfect synergy.
Grappling Expert gives you a Bonus Action unarmed strike, but you can only use it with a Grapple or Shove. It doesn't let you use it for the "damage" version of an Unarmed Strike. "Sucker Punch" extends that to be any Unarmed Strike.
They way they're doing things, from document to document, I am probably going to hedge my bets by keeping "magical" in there, but adding a choice of other damage types.
Also: with Sucker Punch vs Light weapon:
If you have Nick, you could move the Light weapon attack to the Attack Action .. and ALSO Sucker Punch as a Bonus Action. So you could effectively do 4 unarmed strikes (3 with your Strength Mod to damage) in a turn.
Bonus Action: 1 from Sucker Punch
Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick
And, since I'm going to suggest ALSO giving that Fighting Style to the Monk at 1st level... they also can do the same thing with their unarmed strikes (only it isn't "Sucker Punch"). Potentially as many as 5 with Flurry of Blows (but only 4 with Dex Mod bonus to damage).
Bonus Action: 2 from Flurry of Blows
Attack Action: 2 from Extra Attack + 1 from Nick.
Because of the proposed magical items we might be getting into the over powered territory. It’s why I would rather give a damage boost than more attacks. It’s far easier to have consistent math with a damage boost. More attacks is an optimizers dream. HM and Hex effect more attacks and change the dpr math. Reckless attack with 4 attacks a round with brutal critical needs to be looked at. I got a feeling it’s going to move bar too much.
I’ll believe the magic items when I see them. Not just in the DMG, but also in adventure books.
So something I find kind of odd is the fact that the 'Tavern Brawler' feat really clashes with the design of the Brawler class. The feat and subclass both provide most of the same benefits so taking both of them is less then optimal. What's most backwards is that if you start from level 1 and WANT to play as a Brawler Tavern Brawler would likely be the feat you'd want to take.
Perhaps instead of having "Unarmed Expert" we have a feature that grants the Tavern Brawler feat (or a different background feat if you already have a feat). The damage of Tavern Brawler's unarmed strikes probably needed a mild buff anyway and that solves at least one of the weird thing this class does.
Huh. Yeah, you're right. The Damage Rerolls still works well for your d6/d8 damage, and Shove is still a good option, but Furniture as Weapons, which guarantees d8 damage with two hands just doesn't qualify for any of the Brawler's features, since those only work for Improvised Weapons, while Tavern Brawler lets you treat furniture as actual weapons, rather than modifying how improvised weapons work for you.
Hopefully we'll see a redesign. Tavern Brawler is super slick and very clear about how it works, just explicitly letting you treat things as actual weapons. Still bad damage compared to weapons, but slick design.
From Playtest 1, for reference: