I have come across comments that think the Vancian system might not have been the best implementation of a magic system for D&D.
5e magic isn't Vancian -- Vancian magic is "once you cast the spell, it's gone; if you want to cast the spell more than once, prepare it more than once".
Yeah: “fire and forget”. In this case, they use the Spell Slot system to do that. Use a spell slot, its gone, and that’s still Vancian.
They also don't use vancian.
1e did.
Cantrips aren't vancian. Preparing spells isn't even like vancian anymore. Prepping spells is more like laying out the components and reviewing your spell books and "writing notes on cards so you remember the important bits before a speech" preparing of your spells.
Vancian is LITERALLY fire and forget. Meaning 4 instance of fire ball means you literally have to memorize fireball 4 times and each time you cast it you forgot an instance of it.
Edit: Also the lore IIRC back then or at least in fire and forget magic fiction was that a spell took up space I. Your brain and a misfire or fizzled spell could turn your mind into literal swiss cheese.
The game as a whole is sorta overdue for one for us older players, but the newer folks aren’t there yet. The benefit to the system is that it allows people a quick way to understand spells. Gygax just liked it because he liked making people have to burn through their components.
The spell slot system took the place of the individual spells — you still burn through them and while it isn’t book accurate (thankfully) it is still a Vancian based system. It is, imo, an improvement on the original, in that specific sense.
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
What I meant is first edition was vancian, but subsequent changes make it so that that reference is laughably wrong now. If anyone these days even gets it.
The video game thing... unfortunately, video games have done a LOT to influence fiction anymore. A lot of emphasis goes into describing mechanics of magic when before the games....magicay have had rules or resources but never were they "points"
And I'm not against points. What you describe is what I would like for sorcerers. It's just the idea of every class having this master list and it being so mathematically pure and clean...
You know the only thing that the game really never has had suggested (and I'm afraid to bring up) is magic items to refill magic points or spell slots.
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
What I meant is first edition was vancian, but subsequent changes make it so that that reference is laughably wrong now. If anyone these days even gets it.
The video game thing... unfortunately, video games have done a LOT to influence fiction anymore. A lot of emphasis goes into describing mechanics of magic when before the games....magicay have had rules or resources but never were they "points"
And I'm not against points. What you describe is what I would like for sorcerers. It's just the idea of every class having this master list and it being so mathematically pure and clean...
You know the only thing that the game really never has had suggested (and I'm afraid to bring up) is magic items to refill magic points or spell slots.
Not so much the fiction I read, lol. easiest way to see if I have read anything published after 1990: is the main character a man? THen I haven’t read it. I’ve had enough stories about guys, lol.
The “power up” on points is indeed a mechanic that is invariably raised when you go to a point style system, and the problem there is that you have to place a control on such things in an RPG unless you intentionally give everyone a very low amount of points. Because otherwise, you get spamfests of mid level destruction that harken towards that “regional destruction” idea, lol.
Anime has shown me that, lol. “Let me pop a potion of magic energy” and good to go.
I am not wed to the ideas of Sorcerers, so that doesn’t impact me much — but I note that in the system we use when we use it with 5e, the hard core source players love it because they still have the meta magic and that makes it easier and more flexible for them — it is sorcery points on steroids, and makes them really challenging to play because you can do so much more.
But it also helps out everyone else, ad balances magic use much more effectively.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
What I meant is first edition was vancian, but subsequent changes make it so that that reference is laughably wrong now. If anyone these days even gets it.
The video game thing... unfortunately, video games have done a LOT to influence fiction anymore. A lot of emphasis goes into describing mechanics of magic when before the games....magicay have had rules or resources but never were they "points"
And I'm not against points. What you describe is what I would like for sorcerers. It's just the idea of every class having this master list and it being so mathematically pure and clean...
You know the only thing that the game really never has had suggested (and I'm afraid to bring up) is magic items to refill magic points or spell slots.
Not so much the fiction I read, lol. easiest way to see if I have read anything published after 1990: is the main character a man? THen I haven’t read it. I’ve had enough stories about guys, lol.
The “power up” on points is indeed a mechanic that is invariably raised when you go to a point style system, and the problem there is that you have to place a control on such things in an RPG unless you intentionally give everyone a very low amount of points. Because otherwise, you get spamfests of mid level destruction that harken towards that “regional destruction” idea, lol.
Anime has shown me that, lol. “Let me pop a potion of magic energy” and good to go.
I am not wed to the ideas of Sorcerers, so that doesn’t impact me much — but I note that in the system we use when we use it with 5e, the hard core source players love it because they still have the meta magic and that makes it easier and more flexible for them — it is sorcery points on steroids, and makes them really challenging to play because you can do so much more.
But it also helps out everyone else, ad balances magic use much more effectively.
I cringe at most of the anime/video game tropes.
Orson Scott card is absolutely insufferable for wanting to spend literally hundreds of pages describing his magic systems in both pathfinder (unrelated to the game, but equally as insufferable and now that I think about how mechanics forward both are, insufferable for the same reasons) and the lost gate.
Also, don't hold a grudge against male protagonists. Especially when 90% of the authors these days are women. In many ways, women write men as more gender neutral. They also write women more gender neutral, which is....nice.
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
What I meant is first edition was vancian, but subsequent changes make it so that that reference is laughably wrong now. If anyone these days even gets it.
The video game thing... unfortunately, video games have done a LOT to influence fiction anymore. A lot of emphasis goes into describing mechanics of magic when before the games....magicay have had rules or resources but never were they "points"
And I'm not against points. What you describe is what I would like for sorcerers. It's just the idea of every class having this master list and it being so mathematically pure and clean...
You know the only thing that the game really never has had suggested (and I'm afraid to bring up) is magic items to refill magic points or spell slots.
Not so much the fiction I read, lol. easiest way to see if I have read anything published after 1990: is the main character a man? THen I haven’t read it. I’ve had enough stories about guys, lol.
The “power up” on points is indeed a mechanic that is invariably raised when you go to a point style system, and the problem there is that you have to place a control on such things in an RPG unless you intentionally give everyone a very low amount of points. Because otherwise, you get spamfests of mid level destruction that harken towards that “regional destruction” idea, lol.
Anime has shown me that, lol. “Let me pop a potion of magic energy” and good to go.
I am not wed to the ideas of Sorcerers, so that doesn’t impact me much — but I note that in the system we use when we use it with 5e, the hard core source players love it because they still have the meta magic and that makes it easier and more flexible for them — it is sorcery points on steroids, and makes them really challenging to play because you can do so much more.
But it also helps out everyone else, ad balances magic use much more effectively.
I cringe at most of the anime/video game tropes.
Orson Scott card is absolutely insufferable for wanting to spend literally hundreds of pages describing his magic systems in both pathfinder (unrelated to the game, but equally as insufferable and now that I think about how mechanics forward both are, insufferable for the same reasons) and the lost gate.
Also, don't hold a grudge against male protagonists. Especially when 90% of the authors these days are women. In many ways, women write men as more gender neutral. They also write women more gender neutral, which is....nice.
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective. It isn't a grudge -- I'm just, well, bored of them. I love my action movies, but even then I have trended towards women led ones. Seriously, with as much as I've read, everything starts to get really samey, and shifting that perspective has helped a lot.
I am politically aligned in opposition to just about everything OSC thinks, and given he's said I should be shot in the head in the past, he's not among the folks I like.
magic systems don't have to be rules based, but in a game, yeah, rules are kinda needed. Funny thing: D&D hasn't ever published the formal rules behind magic in the game, to my knowledge. But once you have the rough idea of the rules of magic, the rest starts to fall into place shockingly fast.
Anime tropes are from very much outside our cultural norms, but yeah, major cringe for like half of them, lol. Especially a lot of the isekai stuff, which one would think would be good for this kind of thing, but turn out to really not be, lol.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective.
The last figures I can find casually are from reddit in 2020 but seem reasonably well researched. It looks like the most severely skewed category is YA (which ... does not surprise me), followed by SF, with adult fantasy being the closest to evenly divided.
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective.
The last figures I can find casually are from reddit in 2020 but seem reasonably well researched. It looks like the most severely skewed category is YA (which ... does not surprise me), followed by SF, with adult fantasy being the closest to evenly divided.
Yeah, YA is deeply woman-centric, Sf is deeply men-centric (author wise) and that fits given I read a lot of "adult fantasy", but shy away from romance.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective.
The last figures I can find casually are from reddit in 2020 but seem reasonably well researched. It looks like the most severely skewed category is YA (which ... does not surprise me), followed by SF, with adult fantasy being the closest to evenly divided.
Yeah, YA is deeply woman-centric, Sf is deeply men-centric (author wise) and that fits given I read a lot of "adult fantasy", but shy away from romance.
I'll take your word. I sometimes forget I skew towards predominately women authors... to the point where I am scared to actually check back and see and find out the last male author I read was OSC when those books came out...
Claire North/Kate Griffin is good. VE Schwab's darker shade of magic is not to be passed up, the different world interconnected, the idea of blood magic.. solid, though her other stuff is hit or miss. Secret life of Adie Larue fantastic (female protagonist). Enjoyed 10000 doors of January (also female protagonist there, of color but I feel it's botched. Concepts and ideas are good though).
Edit: I believe in separating politics from art except when art is an expression of those politics. I disagree with card's politics, and my opinions of his books were made on the content of the books not his political views.
I read them specifically to gauge his writing as he has been lauded as a great sf author and his ender series as a must read for SF.
I have done this for many authors in SF (it and fantasy are my jam). Heinlein is just as bad, but at least Card has GENERALLY kept his political views out of his fiction. Heinlein is slightly better as a writer but worse at keeping his views to himself.
Returning to the original thread of this, here is my contribution:
Shield: Maintain the current +5, but the maximum armor that could be reached with the spell is 16 to 18, this maximum armor thanks to the spell increases by an additional +1 for each additional level used in casting the spell.
Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut and other spells that make it easier to rest in dangerous places are modified so that they do not trivialize this too much, it could be by extending the casting time to 1 minute, they consume a cheap material component, they are less efficient in providing a safe and comfortable rest if not cast using a higher level spell slot. (or attract attention, potentially increasing the chance of being ambushed as soon as the spell ends.)
Nerf Wish so that it is not the best overall choice for a level 9 spell; Perhaps you can choose to cast up to a 7th level spell (And if you choose 8th level increase your exhaustion level by 1 or only halve the material cost.), as compensation it could be that if a lower level is chosen cast as if using a 7th-level spell slot, or alternatively make Wish have a consumable material component.
Misty Step may need to have a shorter distance: 20 feet, and this distance can be extended by 10 feet for each level above 2.
Enlarge/Reduce should allow you to resize by 2 sizes if using a 5th level or higher spell slot.
Mending should be able to cast a little faster when your level is higher. (1 or 2 shifts)
Improve True Strike.
Cure Wounds should slightly heal a bit more, maybe replace 1d8 with 2d4 (Also when leveling up).
Goodberry should have limited within the spell description the possibility of abusing the created berries, especially before a long rest due to the recovery of spell slots and accumulation of a large number of these. In compensation, the possibility of improving the spell if it is cast with a higher level spell slot could be added. (Example: A creature can easily consume up to 2 berries in a period of 8 hours. If it consumes a 3rd in less than that time, this and any food or drink it tries to consume in the next hour will require it to make a roll. constitution save DC equal to 16, if failed the character returns what was consumed, without receiving the benefits. At higher levels, if you use a spell slot of level 5 or higher, for every 4 levels above 1 each berry heals 3 additional life points.)
Longstrider should have a cast time of one additional action.
Find Traps is garbage, it should be improved to at least be useful, perhaps with an immediate effect to accurately detect hidden/invisible traps and openings, and an effect that increases passive perception for a while; or that automatically detects the next trap within your range, so if there is none nearby it remains active while you move through the dungeon and find a trap.
Should improve Cordon of Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrows.
Alter Self should be able to upgrade if cast with a higher level spell slot.
Stoneskin should improve slightly, perhaps also granting minimal armor to the benefited creature, perhaps at the cost of disadvantage on dexterity checks and saves. (Level 4, concentration and consumes material component valued at 100 gold, not worth its benefit compared to other defensive spells, such as shield.)
Give more spells some buffs when upcasting, especially from the warlock's list.
Summons of 2014 improve them halfway to Tasha's: Not so random, with somewhat faster casting times, so that you cannot summon as many as 8 units (1 or 2, maximum 3) and without losing possible consequences for losing concentration on certain invocations.
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective.
The last figures I can find casually are from reddit in 2020 but seem reasonably well researched. It looks like the most severely skewed category is YA (which ... does not surprise me), followed by SF, with adult fantasy being the closest to evenly divided.
Oh they didn't include all genres. Romance is by far the most gender skewed, like 90% women both authors and readers. While 'hard' SF is most male skewed with male authors & readership above 70%.
Returning to the original thread of this, here is my contribution:
Shield: Maintain the current +5, but the maximum armor that could be reached with the spell is 16 to 18, this maximum armor thanks to the spell increases by an additional +1 for each additional level used in casting the spell.
Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut and other spells that make it easier to rest in dangerous places are modified so that they do not trivialize this too much, it could be by extending the casting time to 1 minute, they consume a cheap material component, they are less efficient in providing a safe and comfortable rest if not cast using a higher level spell slot. (or attract attention, potentially increasing the chance of being ambushed as soon as the spell ends.)
Nerf Wish so that it is not the best overall choice for a level 9 spell; Perhaps you can choose to cast up to a 7th level spell (And if you choose 8th level increase your exhaustion level by 1 or only halve the material cost.), as compensation it could be that if a lower level is chosen cast as if using a 7th-level spell slot, or alternatively make Wish have a consumable material component.
Misty Step may need to have a shorter distance: 20 feet, and this distance can be extended by 10 feet for each level above 2.
Enlarge/Reduce should allow you to resize by 2 sizes if using a 5th level or higher spell slot.
Mending should be able to cast a little faster when your level is higher. (1 or 2 shifts)
Improve True Strike.
Cure Wounds should slightly heal a bit more, maybe replace 1d8 with 2d4 (Also when leveling up).
Goodberry should have limited within the spell description the possibility of abusing the created berries, especially before a long rest due to the recovery of spell slots and accumulation of a large number of these. In compensation, the possibility of improving the spell if it is cast with a higher level spell slot could be added. (Example: A creature can easily consume up to 2 berries in a period of 8 hours. If it consumes a 3rd in less than that time, this and any food or drink it tries to consume in the next hour will require it to make a roll. constitution save DC equal to 16, if failed the character returns what was consumed, without receiving the benefits. At higher levels, if you use a spell slot of level 5 or higher, for every 4 levels above 1 each berry heals 3 additional life points.)
Longstrider should have a cast time of one additional action.
Find Traps is garbage, it should be improved to at least be useful, perhaps with an immediate effect to accurately detect hidden/invisible traps and openings, and an effect that increases passive perception for a while; or that automatically detects the next trap within your range, so if there is none nearby it remains active while you move through the dungeon and find a trap.
Should improve Cordon of Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrows.
Alter Self should be able to upgrade if cast with a higher level spell slot.
Stoneskin should improve slightly, perhaps also granting minimal armor to the benefited creature, perhaps at the cost of disadvantage on dexterity checks and saves. (Level 4, concentration and consumes material component valued at 100 gold, not worth its benefit compared to other defensive spells, such as shield.)
Give more spells some buffs when upcasting, especially from the warlock's list.
Summons of 2014 improve them halfway to Tasha's: Not so random, with somewhat faster casting times, so that you cannot summon as many as 8 units (1 or 2, maximum 3) and without losing possible consequences for losing concentration on certain invocations.
You're absolutely right and sorry about that.
I think they purposefully make the warlock's spell list limited in what upcast because they know warlocks get the upcast for free. It sucks because...I mean... why even give the slots as all the highest possible level then. (Still prefer an invocation and pact forward warlock though).
Goodberry should just be removed. Period.
Almost nobody runs ration or survival rules. When they do, goodberry ruins it. In one case it's utterly useless, in the other utterly overpowered. There is no in between. Or am I thinking of another spell?
I like the 2d4 for cure wounds, but It and some of the other higher level cure spells I'd rather combine and have a per-level upscale (it one of the ones that has a 5/11/17 upscale, right again, spell is not in front of me) and healing word follow a similar sort of pattern. Make them nearly the same spell (balanced out a bit of course) but Cure for one person, Word for multiple targets.
Almost nobody runs ration or survival rules. When they do, goodberry ruins it. In one case it's utterly useless, in the other utterly overpowered. There is no in between. Or am I thinking of another spell?
goodberry does that, yes. But it's not the only one.
heroes' feast also eliminates the need for rations with several character buffs on top of it, since it's a 6th-level spell.
Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion also eliminates the need for rations and even gives you a whole elaborate shelter to be cozy in. If you have a 13th+ level wizard in your party, survival shouldn't even be in the picture.
Goddamned repetitive spells... >.<
Agree create needs to go, hero's feast is also more about the next day boost.
The mansion and hut spells have other issues..... but ehhhhhh...... as long as they are for the express purpose of a long rest, and not for player shenanigans, I'm fine with them.
I feel like with all of the things I want nerfed it's because of player abuse, and 75% of it is because of unintended uses/abused that just wreck games, and not because the spell is "overpowered".
Bob_the_fish12 In general I agree, especially with improving a little (and maybe fusing some.) healing spells, more in upcasting.
F for that justification with the warlock, but they still need more spells that improve somewhat by using higher level slots, even if less effectively than the rest of the spells that are not normally from the warlock.
I disagree with eliminating Goodberry as an option (If the DM vetoes it, that's another matter.), for druids and rangers it is very logical, in which case they would have to be limited a little more than what I suggested, so it is not such an easy option. if you want to avoid carrying food. (Maybe 10 minutes to cast it, so if you just don't have time or there are periodic interruptions, you screw yourself by not being able to cast it calmly and not carrying reserve food... If they agree to change the level of the spell, a level 2 would also disincentivize a little daily use.)
Almost nobody runs ration or survival rules. When they do, goodberry ruins it. In one case it's utterly useless, in the other utterly overpowered. There is no in between. Or am I thinking of another spell?
goodberry does that, yes. But it's not the only one.
heroes' feast also eliminates the need for rations with several character buffs on top of it, since it's a 6th-level spell.
Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion also eliminates the need for rations and even gives you a whole elaborate shelter to be cozy in. If you have a 13th+ level wizard in your party, survival shouldn't even be in the picture.
Add to it: Create/Destroy Water, it does not create food but it covers the other half of what we need each day.
PS: I don't know how to put the links like this hahahahahaha
Goodberry needs a fix as well: 1) material components : holy berries worth at least 5 cp. <- by giving this a gold value means you actually have to forage for these berries (or buy & carry them) so if the DM wants to run more survivalist they don't have to straight out ban the spell. 2) the berries to last no more than 8 hours. <- reducing the duration prevent the really dumb rest-casting of it for a giant pile of out-of-combat healing if you give the players any downtime.
I desperately want them to make a "DM Spells" list for spells that are available for DMs to create story plots and can be tied to magic items or given as spell scrolls but that aren't available for players to just choose when they hit a particular character level. I'd put Simulacrum, Wish, Clone, Maze, True Polymorph, Plane Shift, Prismatic Wall, and a few others on that list.
I desperately want them to make a "DM Spells" list for spells that are available for DMs to create story plots and can be tied to magic items or given as spell scrolls but that aren't available for players to just choose when they hit a particular character level. I'd put Simulacrum, Wish, Clone, Maze, True Polymorph, Plane Shift, Prismatic Wall, and a few others on that list.
Omg. I hadn't even considered doing them as purely dm only spells for plot hooks.
Returning to the original thread of this, here is my contribution:
Shield: Maintain the current +5, but the maximum armor that could be reached with the spell is 16 to 18, this maximum armor thanks to the spell increases by an additional +1 for each additional level used in casting the spell.
Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut and other spells that make it easier to rest in dangerous places are modified so that they do not trivialize this too much, it could be by extending the casting time to 1 minute, they consume a cheap material component, they are less efficient in providing a safe and comfortable rest if not cast using a higher level spell slot. (or attract attention, potentially increasing the chance of being ambushed as soon as the spell ends.)
Nerf Wish so that it is not the best overall choice for a level 9 spell; Perhaps you can choose to cast up to a 7th level spell (And if you choose 8th level increase your exhaustion level by 1 or only halve the material cost.), as compensation it could be that if a lower level is chosen cast as if using a 7th-level spell slot, or alternatively make Wish have a consumable material component.
Misty Step may need to have a shorter distance: 20 feet, and this distance can be extended by 10 feet for each level above 2.
Enlarge/Reduce should allow you to resize by 2 sizes if using a 5th level or higher spell slot.
Mending should be able to cast a little faster when your level is higher. (1 or 2 shifts)
Improve True Strike.
Cure Wounds should slightly heal a bit more, maybe replace 1d8 with 2d4 (Also when leveling up).
Goodberry should have limited within the spell description the possibility of abusing the created berries, especially before a long rest due to the recovery of spell slots and accumulation of a large number of these. In compensation, the possibility of improving the spell if it is cast with a higher level spell slot could be added. (Example: A creature can easily consume up to 2 berries in a period of 8 hours. If it consumes a 3rd in less than that time, this and any food or drink it tries to consume in the next hour will require it to make a roll. constitution save DC equal to 16, if failed the character returns what was consumed, without receiving the benefits. At higher levels, if you use a spell slot of level 5 or higher, for every 4 levels above 1 each berry heals 3 additional life points.)
Longstrider should have a cast time of one additional action.
Find Traps is garbage, it should be improved to at least be useful, perhaps with an immediate effect to accurately detect hidden/invisible traps and openings, and an effect that increases passive perception for a while; or that automatically detects the next trap within your range, so if there is none nearby it remains active while you move through the dungeon and find a trap.
Should improve Cordon of Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrows.
Alter Self should be able to upgrade if cast with a higher level spell slot.
Stoneskin should improve slightly, perhaps also granting minimal armor to the benefited creature, perhaps at the cost of disadvantage on dexterity checks and saves. (Level 4, concentration and consumes material component valued at 100 gold, not worth its benefit compared to other defensive spells, such as shield.)
Give more spells some buffs when upcasting, especially from the warlock's list.
Summons of 2014 improve them halfway to Tasha's: Not so random, with somewhat faster casting times, so that you cannot summon as many as 8 units (1 or 2, maximum 3) and without losing possible consequences for losing concentration on certain invocations.
Shield: just have it grant AC 18 (no +5 business at all). Makes it a bit better for low level wizards who might not cast mage armor, worse in the problem stacking cases.
Rope Trick: reduce duration to 10 minutes.
Tiny Hut: make the level 3 form work like the 3e version (blocks vision, protects against weather). Allow upcasting to turn it into a physical hut (with your choice of doors, windows, etc).
Wish should probably not exist as a spell at all -- it's only available via consumable magic items. Alternately, give it a large unavoidable casting cost.
Misty Step doesn't really bother me, though I would like to see Charge (from 3e/3.5e/4e) reappear to make it more feasible for melee character to engage.
Enlarge/Reduce... eh, whatever?
Mending at higher level should maybe affect larger objects, but making it faster isn't really desirable.
True Strike could probably be made into a bonus action without significant balance issues.
The biggest problem with Cure Wounds is that Healing Word exists. Could turn it into a BA, 1d8/touch vs 1d4/60' seems a fair tradeoff. Upcast is terrible on both spells.
Goodberry could be fixed by reverting to a classic form -- add "Material Component: freshly picked berries (which the spell consumes)" -- and reduce duration to 8h.
Not sure what problem you have with longstrider?
Find Traps: hard to make useful without stomping on the schtick of someone who decided to be good at detecting traps the normal way. Not that traps are particularly functional in this edition anyway.
There are a ton of marginal attack spells, fixing Acid Arrow, Cordon of Arrows, Flame Arrows isn't a priority of mine though I don't object.
Main problem with alter self is that it requires concentration, whereas disguise self does not.
Stoneskin's big problem is that casting a concentration duration defense on yourself is nearly useless; it gets broken long before it matters much. Maybe change it into a flat damage absorption effect (absorb the next X points of bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage) as that means it won't get broken by damage from the attacks it stops.
Upcasting should probably be upgraded to actually be worth at least considering for most spells.
The 2014 summons have the fundamental problem that they require the player to read the monster manual, I expect them to go away. The Tasha's summons should probably be changed to 1 + level/3 attacks (instead of level/2) as that better matches standard power progression.
Given that originally casting a haste spell aged you a year, and a wish aged you three, the price and consequences of magic should be more of a thing.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
1) Tasha's summoning spells to have their damage per attack scale rather than their number of attacks and require a BA to command them.
2) Conjure X & animate objects to be restricted to the option where you summon 1-2 creatures and require a BA to command them.
3) All control spells to get either repeat saves or other ways to break them : - Banishment : repeat save at end of each turn, - Wall of Force : use an action to make a STR check to break it, - Forcecage : use an action to make a check to break it. - Hypnotic Pattern : save at the end of each turn - Fear : remove the fleeing and instead reduce their speed to 0, also save at the end of each turn. - Domination : taking damage breaks it not just allow a save.
4) Nerfing the must-takes : - Misty Step requires an Action - Shield cannot be cast if wearing any armour or using a shield and only lasts until the end of the current creature's turn. - Counterspell : target makes a save with their spellcasting ability against your spell DC. - Polymorph : limited to creatures of CR <=1/2 the creature's level or CR that you have seen before.
5) Fixing spells that don't work: - Find Traps actually finds traps. - Daylight produces sunlight - Flame Blade is an actual weapon that uses the Attack action. - Phantasmal Killer, Weird, Mort's Sword, Vampiric Touch : need to not suck.
I mostly agree but for 3 I think something needs to be added for what happens on a save, some damage, a lesser effect for a round, something. Yeah in a boss fight even a round of a control effect is big, but most fights are not boss fights and a look they broke it after a round again effects just move people to fireballs because at least you are guaranteed something, and dead is the best crowd control anyways. You'd also likely need to change the level or how many they target on some of these. If you save every round on both fear and banishment fear is just vastly superior to banishment. I think the game needs a solid motivation to control, and if the limits are too big people just go for damage every round.
polymorph id just flat limit it to CF 1/2 creatures or lower and allow a save every round. Have a upcast version like flesh to stone where the first failed save is a restrain etc 3rd fail save they are permanently transformed. Basically remove the polymorph as a buff spell just limit it to what was called baleful polymorph in 3e.
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They also don't use vancian.
1e did.
Cantrips aren't vancian. Preparing spells isn't even like vancian anymore. Prepping spells is more like laying out the components and reviewing your spell books and "writing notes on cards so you remember the important bits before a speech" preparing of your spells.
Vancian is LITERALLY fire and forget. Meaning 4 instance of fire ball means you literally have to memorize fireball 4 times and each time you cast it you forgot an instance of it.
Edit: Also the lore IIRC back then or at least in fire and forget magic fiction was that a spell took up space I. Your brain and a misfire or fizzled spell could turn your mind into literal swiss cheese.
Like I said — a rewrite to the magic system.
The game as a whole is sorta overdue for one for us older players, but the newer folks aren’t there yet. The benefit to the system is that it allows people a quick way to understand spells. Gygax just liked it because he liked making people have to burn through their components.
The spell slot system took the place of the individual spells — you still burn through them and while it isn’t book accurate (thankfully) it is still a Vancian based system. It is, imo, an improvement on the original, in that specific sense.
It’s funny you say too video game for you, lol. Because all of that came out of books.I don't generally play video games (I have only played one for the last several years, and only maybe six total in the last decade — and none before that) so couldn’t say what is or isn’t video game.
One thing is true, though: Mess with spells and you mess with D&D as a whole. I don’t mean rules — you can change all the rules around magic or other things, but messing with spells is messing with what really has a defining impact on the game as a whole.
Spells and Monsters. Not the metrics — D&D without a Beholder and D&D without a fireball is almost unthinkable, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
What I meant is first edition was vancian, but subsequent changes make it so that that reference is laughably wrong now. If anyone these days even gets it.
The video game thing... unfortunately, video games have done a LOT to influence fiction anymore. A lot of emphasis goes into describing mechanics of magic when before the games....magicay have had rules or resources but never were they "points"
And I'm not against points. What you describe is what I would like for sorcerers. It's just the idea of every class having this master list and it being so mathematically pure and clean...
You know the only thing that the game really never has had suggested (and I'm afraid to bring up) is magic items to refill magic points or spell slots.
Not so much the fiction I read, lol. easiest way to see if I have read anything published after 1990: is the main character a man? THen I haven’t read it. I’ve had enough stories about guys, lol.
The “power up” on points is indeed a mechanic that is invariably raised when you go to a point style system, and the problem there is that you have to place a control on such things in an RPG unless you intentionally give everyone a very low amount of points. Because otherwise, you get spamfests of mid level destruction that harken towards that “regional destruction” idea, lol.
Anime has shown me that, lol. “Let me pop a potion of magic energy” and good to go.
I am not wed to the ideas of Sorcerers, so that doesn’t impact me much — but I note that in the system we use when we use it with 5e, the hard core source players love it because they still have the meta magic and that makes it easier and more flexible for them — it is sorcery points on steroids, and makes them really challenging to play because you can do so much more.
But it also helps out everyone else, ad balances magic use much more effectively.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I cringe at most of the anime/video game tropes.
Orson Scott card is absolutely insufferable for wanting to spend literally hundreds of pages describing his magic systems in both pathfinder (unrelated to the game, but equally as insufferable and now that I think about how mechanics forward both are, insufferable for the same reasons) and the lost gate.
Also, don't hold a grudge against male protagonists. Especially when 90% of the authors these days are women. In many ways, women write men as more gender neutral. They also write women more gender neutral, which is....nice.
easily 70% of my recommendations are men authors, but I haven't looked at the reality in the larger marketplace among genre fiction authors. SF is still male dominant, I know, but i haven't looked into Fantasy from that perspective. It isn't a grudge -- I'm just, well, bored of them. I love my action movies, but even then I have trended towards women led ones. Seriously, with as much as I've read, everything starts to get really samey, and shifting that perspective has helped a lot.
I am politically aligned in opposition to just about everything OSC thinks, and given he's said I should be shot in the head in the past, he's not among the folks I like.
magic systems don't have to be rules based, but in a game, yeah, rules are kinda needed. Funny thing: D&D hasn't ever published the formal rules behind magic in the game, to my knowledge. But once you have the rough idea of the rules of magic, the rest starts to fall into place shockingly fast.
Anime tropes are from very much outside our cultural norms, but yeah, major cringe for like half of them, lol. Especially a lot of the isekai stuff, which one would think would be good for this kind of thing, but turn out to really not be, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The last figures I can find casually are from reddit in 2020 but seem reasonably well researched. It looks like the most severely skewed category is YA (which ... does not surprise me), followed by SF, with adult fantasy being the closest to evenly divided.
Yeah, YA is deeply woman-centric, Sf is deeply men-centric (author wise) and that fits given I read a lot of "adult fantasy", but shy away from romance.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'll take your word. I sometimes forget I skew towards predominately women authors... to the point where I am scared to actually check back and see and find out the last male author I read was OSC when those books came out...
Claire North/Kate Griffin is good. VE Schwab's darker shade of magic is not to be passed up, the different world interconnected, the idea of blood magic.. solid, though her other stuff is hit or miss. Secret life of Adie Larue fantastic (female protagonist). Enjoyed 10000 doors of January (also female protagonist there, of color but I feel it's botched. Concepts and ideas are good though).
Edit: I believe in separating politics from art except when art is an expression of those politics. I disagree with card's politics, and my opinions of his books were made on the content of the books not his political views.
I read them specifically to gauge his writing as he has been lauded as a great sf author and his ender series as a must read for SF.
I have done this for many authors in SF (it and fantasy are my jam). Heinlein is just as bad, but at least Card has GENERALLY kept his political views out of his fiction. Heinlein is slightly better as a writer but worse at keeping his views to himself.
Returning to the original thread of this, here is my contribution:
Oh they didn't include all genres. Romance is by far the most gender skewed, like 90% women both authors and readers. While 'hard' SF is most male skewed with male authors & readership above 70%.
You're absolutely right and sorry about that.
I think they purposefully make the warlock's spell list limited in what upcast because they know warlocks get the upcast for free. It sucks because...I mean... why even give the slots as all the highest possible level then. (Still prefer an invocation and pact forward warlock though).
Goodberry should just be removed. Period.
Almost nobody runs ration or survival rules. When they do, goodberry ruins it. In one case it's utterly useless, in the other utterly overpowered. There is no in between. Or am I thinking of another spell?
I like the 2d4 for cure wounds, but It and some of the other higher level cure spells I'd rather combine and have a per-level upscale (it one of the ones that has a 5/11/17 upscale, right again, spell is not in front of me) and healing word follow a similar sort of pattern. Make them nearly the same spell (balanced out a bit of course) but Cure for one person, Word for multiple targets.
Goddamned repetitive spells... >.<
Agree create needs to go, hero's feast is also more about the next day boost.
The mansion and hut spells have other issues..... but ehhhhhh...... as long as they are for the express purpose of a long rest, and not for player shenanigans, I'm fine with them.
I feel like with all of the things I want nerfed it's because of player abuse, and 75% of it is because of unintended uses/abused that just wreck games, and not because the spell is "overpowered".
Bob_the_fish12 In general I agree, especially with improving a little (and maybe fusing some.) healing spells, more in upcasting.
F for that justification with the warlock, but they still need more spells that improve somewhat by using higher level slots, even if less effectively than the rest of the spells that are not normally from the warlock.
I disagree with eliminating Goodberry as an option (If the DM vetoes it, that's another matter.), for druids and rangers it is very logical, in which case they would have to be limited a little more than what I suggested, so it is not such an easy option. if you want to avoid carrying food. (Maybe 10 minutes to cast it, so if you just don't have time or there are periodic interruptions, you screw yourself by not being able to cast it calmly and not carrying reserve food... If they agree to change the level of the spell, a level 2 would also disincentivize a little daily use.)
Add to it: Create/Destroy Water, it does not create food but it covers the other half of what we need each day.
PS: I don't know how to put the links like this hahahahahaha
Goodberry needs a fix as well:
1) material components : holy berries worth at least 5 cp. <- by giving this a gold value means you actually have to forage for these berries (or buy & carry them) so if the DM wants to run more survivalist they don't have to straight out ban the spell.
2) the berries to last no more than 8 hours. <- reducing the duration prevent the really dumb rest-casting of it for a giant pile of out-of-combat healing if you give the players any downtime.
I desperately want them to make a "DM Spells" list for spells that are available for DMs to create story plots and can be tied to magic items or given as spell scrolls but that aren't available for players to just choose when they hit a particular character level. I'd put Simulacrum, Wish, Clone, Maze, True Polymorph, Plane Shift, Prismatic Wall, and a few others on that list.
Omg. I hadn't even considered doing them as purely dm only spells for plot hooks.
That's quite a brilliant solution for them.
Given that originally casting a haste spell aged you a year, and a wish aged you three, the price and consequences of magic should be more of a thing.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I mostly agree but for 3 I think something needs to be added for what happens on a save, some damage, a lesser effect for a round, something. Yeah in a boss fight even a round of a control effect is big, but most fights are not boss fights and a look they broke it after a round again effects just move people to fireballs because at least you are guaranteed something, and dead is the best crowd control anyways. You'd also likely need to change the level or how many they target on some of these. If you save every round on both fear and banishment fear is just vastly superior to banishment. I think the game needs a solid motivation to control, and if the limits are too big people just go for damage every round.
polymorph id just flat limit it to CF 1/2 creatures or lower and allow a save every round. Have a upcast version like flesh to stone where the first failed save is a restrain etc 3rd fail save they are permanently transformed. Basically remove the polymorph as a buff spell just limit it to what was called baleful polymorph in 3e.