Monk, on the other hand, must be SAD. It only has one aspect, the martial aspect. Making it require two ability scores to function on a basic level for no other reason than fluff is incompetent design. What if we made barbarian rage damage bonus depend on Wis because primal something something? What if battlemaster maneuvers DC was determined by Int? Why, monk save DC is determined by Wis, so why not? Sorry, I'm ranting, but monk is my sore spot. The class is crippled by design for no good reason.\
And yet, if it were SAD, it wouldn't be much improved. It'd still be resource-constrained, kind of damage-light at mid-high levels, and sort of crunchy for a melee character. It wouldn't be any more able to maneuver in and out of combat than it is now. It'd still be a generalist in an environment that values specialists. Getting +1 stat bonus at 8th level just isn't that big a deal.
MADness isn't the problem. Some combination of:
more ki
lower ki costs on some of their powers
d10 hit die
bigger martial arts dice or more attacks
And they'd be fine. (Those aren't the only options, but they're the fast fixes to the current monk.)
And they're still functional and fun now.
MAD would still be a problem for monks as it hampers their ability to take feats. If it was just their Save DC for stunning strike it would not be a huge deal but its also core to their AC which they need to increase as they level. They get soft locked into just bumping stats their entire career. Meanwhile other classes get to take feats to improve them past their stats.
I mean, AC is nice, but an 18 (+5 DEX and +3 WIS; attainable at level 8 with point buy and no stats below 10) is already a respectable base AC, and there's magic items and Monk features to help it out a little more. WIS is a secondary priority for Monks, and you aren't really locked into boosting it all the way up to 20, if you prefer to prioritize straight attacks and feats. As I outlined earlier, the mistake with MAD classes is to assume that the class will only function well if you boost both stats all the way up to 20 ASAP; this is not true. The DC's are almost never used for standalone save-or-suck features; obviously they'll suffer if you outright neglect the secondary stat, but they don't have the same pressing need to max out the DC to avoid wasting whole turns in the same way full casters do.
I mean, AC is nice, but an 18 (+5 DEX and +3 WIS; attainable at level 8 with point buy and no stats below 10) is already a respectable base AC, and there's magic items and Monk features to help it out a little more. WIS is a secondary priority for Monks, and you aren't really locked into boosting it all the way up to 20, if you prefer to prioritize straight attacks and feats. As I outlined earlier, the mistake with MAD classes is to assume that the class will only function well if you boost both stats all the way up to 20 ASAP; this is not true. The DC's are almost never used for standalone save-or-suck features; obviously they'll suffer if you outright neglect the secondary stat, but they don't have the same pressing need to max out the DC to avoid wasting whole turns in the same way full casters do.
What?!!!
Almost never is not never. 5e Monk has save or suck DCs in the main class and many of the subclasses. Other MAD classes don’t rely on their secondary stat as part of their AC calculations. Only the monk has to do that. You can build a +0 Char Paladin, and a +0 Wis Ranger and all would be combat viable and could still have OoC viability. Show me a +0 Wis Monk that is combat viable and has an OoC niche. Also since Barbarian can wear armor and has damage mitigation you can have a +0 Dex Barbarian.
What’s funny is I can even build fullcasters that don’t have to prioritize their casting stat because not all spells are save or suck. I rolled up an off build sorcerer mountain dwarf with a 6 Cha. I will admit as a rolled character he is probably stronger than the point buy version, but I bet I could run him off point buy or standard array pretty much the exact same way. Just would have been a greater struggle in the early levels. Their is viable off build potential in full casters that doesn’t exist in Monk. I guess you an make a Str Wis monk with Tortle, and using Tortle or Loxodon you could make a SAD Astral Monk, but that’s really it. There is so much more flexibility in other classes.
Stunning Strike is a rider to regular attacks; in order to have a chance to trigger it, you've already landed an attack, you're just angling for a no action cost bonus effect on top of it. A Monk's bread and butter is making attack rolls; Stunning Strike is something you trade the opportunity to make even more attack rolls to attempt; it's a secondary feature, not a primary. You can let the DC hang a little low and just play the odds since regardless of if it goes through or not, you're damaging the target every time you get the option to use it.
I could absolutely run a WIS 10 Monk with quite a few subclasses; Mercy, Shadows, Drunken Master, and Kensei all have little to no use for the Ki save DC, just off the top of my head. 15 AC isn't amazing, but obviously you don't care about peak performance if we're doing clearly counter-intuitive builds. I actually had the idea for a Gun Fu Kensei Monk, since they get wildcard extra weapon profs that still count for their Monk features. Get prof with the pepperbox or pistol, use the Gunner feat so I can shoot in melee and hold a rapier or shortsword in off hand so I can make one Unarmed Attack and one gun attack and get an AC bonus if I think I need the boost, on top of bonus action unarmed and Kensei attack boosts. I'll have about the same AC as a Rogue in melee and I can divert ability scores to CON to make a tankier Monk, and if I want to stand back and shoot for a bit there's features so I won't be hurting bad on damage and can even subvert the classic Monk image by being a mainly ranged guy.
Basic design principle works for the other subclasses too; I can just favor CON over WIS at creation if I want a sturdier Monk mixing it up in melee soaking a few more hits. Heck, for Gun-Fu or Shadows I could skip the CON boost, bump INT or CHA, and get a little more skill range in there. Could use feats or a quick dip to get expertise, even. Is that sufficiently creative for you, or does that not measure up to hopping on the same meme build there's a couple dozen YouTube videos and other online guides for?
Stunning Strike is a rider to regular attacks; in order to have a chance to trigger it, you've already landed an attack, you're just angling for a no action cost bonus effect on top of it. A Monk's bread and butter is making attack rolls; Stunning Strike is something you trade the opportunity to make even more attack rolls to attempt; it's a secondary feature, not a primary. You can let the DC hang a little low and just play the odds since regardless of if it goes through or not, you're damaging the target every time you get the option to use it.
I could absolutely run a WIS 10 Monk with quite a few subclasses; Mercy, Shadows, Drunken Master, and Kensei all have little to no use for the Ki save DC, just off the top of my head. 15 AC isn't amazing, but obviously you don't care about peak performance if we're doing clearly counter-intuitive builds. I actually had the idea for a Gun Fu Kensei Monk, since they get wildcard extra weapon profs that still count for their Monk features. Get prof with the pepperbox or pistol, use the Gunner feat so I can shoot in melee and hold a rapier or shortsword in off hand so I can make one Unarmed Attack and one gun attack and get an AC bonus if I think I need the boost, on top of bonus action unarmed and Kensei attack boosts. I'll have about the same AC as a Rogue in melee and I can divert ability scores to CON to make a tankier Monk, and if I want to stand back and shoot for a bit there's features so I won't be hurting bad on damage and can even subvert the classic Monk image by being a mainly ranged guy.
Basic design principle works for the other subclasses too; I can just favor CON over WIS at creation if I want a sturdier Monk mixing it up in melee soaking a few more hits. Heck, for Gun-Fu or Shadows I could skip the CON boost, bump INT or CHA, and get a little more skill range in there. Could use feats or a quick dip to get expertise, even. Is that sufficiently creative for you, or does that not measure up to hopping on the same meme build there's a couple dozen YouTube videos and other online guides for?
So if stunning strike is just a rider, so is 5e divine smite, but divine smite just does additional damage with no connection to Cha. Even the smite spells with riders deal additional damage even if the the target succeeds the rider just fails. Lay on Hands works with no connection to Cha, and even Aura of Protection will give you a +1 to all saving throw no matter what. You can literally have a negative Charisma mod and be fine as a Paladin gaining a +1 to Aura of Protection. I suppose an fix would be to let Stunning strike add 1d4 damage no matter what.
Even if you wanted to run a no Wisdom Monk you run into the AC problem. You can’t have a 15 or more AC on a Monk with no Wisdom in tier 1 except with Tortle or Loxodon. Since Monk forfeits many of its features by becoming a ranged combatant you are pushed into melee putting you in harms way with your low AC. You will have less AC than most Rouges at every level if you choose to have +0 Wis and less ranged and skirmisher options tan a rogue as well. You said that making attacks is the Monks bread and butter, but if I don’t build Wis to increase my AC I have to use hit and run tactics that mean I can’t make as many attacks. Other classes don’t suffer like this when you mix up their builds.
As for you gun fu Monk I would allow it at my table but RAW it isn’t allowed because firearms in 5e are a separate weapon category. If you made that build with +0 Wis you have 13 AC tops until level 4. If you stand back and shoot at levels 3 and 4 you get one shot. Your base monk features are wasted. Kensei at least has the additional 1d4 to ranged attacks for your bonus action, so your build isn’t terrible once you get to lvl 3. Before that you are a low AC monk who is taking a risk to use monk features because they are melee focused.
Monk is the only MAD class with its AC solely tied to ability scores. Everyone else can choose to wear armor. What’s funny is I don’t want classes to be SAD. I want Monk to function like other MAD classes and have more flexibility. If you take a feat and put your monk in any Armor you lose Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement which is bad.
Also since Barbarian can wear armor and has damage mitigation you can have a +0 Dex Barbarian.
I agree with mostly this post but this point, since Barbarian neither gets heavy armour nor can rage in heavy armour, they are still in a position that they need 14 Dexterity (for +2 AC), to perform their best. I think 15+2, 14, 13+1, 8, 12, 10 are probably their best starting ability scores with standard array.
Also since Barbarian can wear armor and has damage mitigation you can have a +0 Dex Barbarian.
I agree with mostly this post but this point, since Barbarian neither gets heavy armour nor can rage in heavy armour, they are still in a position that they need 14 Dexterity (for +2 AC), to perform their best. I think 15+2, 14, 13+1, 8, 12, 10 are probably their best starting ability scores with standard array.
They certainly don't need higher than 14 tho.
Want Dex 14, yes. Need Dex 14 is entirely build dependent. If you are willing to use a shield you can get scale mail at level 1 and have AC 16 while having +0 Dex. This does require you to do a equipment sell off pregame which is allowed in AL, but many home DMs will just let you swap starting items.
Also since Barbarian can wear armor and has damage mitigation you can have a +0 Dex Barbarian.
I agree with mostly this post but this point, since Barbarian neither gets heavy armour nor can rage in heavy armour, they are still in a position that they need 14 Dexterity (for +2 AC), to perform their best. I think 15+2, 14, 13+1, 8, 12, 10 are probably their best starting ability scores with standard array.
They certainly don't need higher than 14 tho.
Want Dex 14, yes. Need Dex 14 is entirely build dependent. If you are willing to use a shield you can get scale mail at level 1 and have AC 16 while having +0 Dex. This does require you to do a equipment sell off pregame which is allowed in AL, but many home DMs will just let you swap starting items.
That same scale mail with 14 DEX would give you 16AC, and then 18AC with a shield on top, so why go for +0 Dex? Barbarian is generally a front line tanky fighter, you want to reduce incoming damage as much as possible. It is possible to get a 16 starting AC with a monk, tho not entirely recommended, a Monk would normally start with 15 AC (10 + 3 (dex) + 2 (wis). Past this, other than some subclasses, Monk doesn't actually need Wisdom until level 5 for Stunning Strike, the main thing holding Monk back is Ki points, not Wisdom.
Overall, Monk's reliance on stunning strike is in itself an issue, the performance of stunning strike either makes Monk powerful or weak, if you can stun lock the BBEG or even a stronger side enemy, Monk does way too much, but if you fail ( target makes the saves ), monk does way too little. Overall Stunning Strike itself is an issue and needs redesigning. I still personally think that Stunning Strike should be once per turn, but you do not expend the ki/discipline point until you stun, at which point that target gets immunity to stunning strike for 1 minute at the end of their lost turn/round. Then it's just the case of a little bit more damage (more so tier 3/4) and a little bit more survivability and Monk would work fine.
The typical barbarian needs 14 dex to do his job well (which is eating aggro). Could you perform more or less well with +0 dex and shield? Yes. But in my view there is no need to do that.
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MAD would still be a problem for monks as it hampers their ability to take feats. If it was just their Save DC for stunning strike it would not be a huge deal but its also core to their AC which they need to increase as they level. They get soft locked into just bumping stats their entire career. Meanwhile other classes get to take feats to improve them past their stats.
I mean, AC is nice, but an 18 (+5 DEX and +3 WIS; attainable at level 8 with point buy and no stats below 10) is already a respectable base AC, and there's magic items and Monk features to help it out a little more. WIS is a secondary priority for Monks, and you aren't really locked into boosting it all the way up to 20, if you prefer to prioritize straight attacks and feats. As I outlined earlier, the mistake with MAD classes is to assume that the class will only function well if you boost both stats all the way up to 20 ASAP; this is not true. The DC's are almost never used for standalone save-or-suck features; obviously they'll suffer if you outright neglect the secondary stat, but they don't have the same pressing need to max out the DC to avoid wasting whole turns in the same way full casters do.
What?!!!
Almost never is not never. 5e Monk has save or suck DCs in the main class and many of the subclasses. Other MAD classes don’t rely on their secondary stat as part of their AC calculations. Only the monk has to do that. You can build a +0 Char Paladin, and a +0 Wis Ranger and all would be combat viable and could still have OoC viability. Show me a +0 Wis Monk that is combat viable and has an OoC niche. Also since Barbarian can wear armor and has damage mitigation you can have a +0 Dex Barbarian.
What’s funny is I can even build fullcasters that don’t have to prioritize their casting stat because not all spells are save or suck. I rolled up an off build sorcerer mountain dwarf with a 6 Cha. I will admit as a rolled character he is probably stronger than the point buy version, but I bet I could run him off point buy or standard array pretty much the exact same way. Just would have been a greater struggle in the early levels. Their is viable off build potential in full casters that doesn’t exist in Monk. I guess you an make a Str Wis monk with Tortle, and using Tortle or Loxodon you could make a SAD Astral Monk, but that’s really it. There is so much more flexibility in other classes.
Stunning Strike is a rider to regular attacks; in order to have a chance to trigger it, you've already landed an attack, you're just angling for a no action cost bonus effect on top of it. A Monk's bread and butter is making attack rolls; Stunning Strike is something you trade the opportunity to make even more attack rolls to attempt; it's a secondary feature, not a primary. You can let the DC hang a little low and just play the odds since regardless of if it goes through or not, you're damaging the target every time you get the option to use it.
I could absolutely run a WIS 10 Monk with quite a few subclasses; Mercy, Shadows, Drunken Master, and Kensei all have little to no use for the Ki save DC, just off the top of my head. 15 AC isn't amazing, but obviously you don't care about peak performance if we're doing clearly counter-intuitive builds. I actually had the idea for a Gun Fu Kensei Monk, since they get wildcard extra weapon profs that still count for their Monk features. Get prof with the pepperbox or pistol, use the Gunner feat so I can shoot in melee and hold a rapier or shortsword in off hand so I can make one Unarmed Attack and one gun attack and get an AC bonus if I think I need the boost, on top of bonus action unarmed and Kensei attack boosts. I'll have about the same AC as a Rogue in melee and I can divert ability scores to CON to make a tankier Monk, and if I want to stand back and shoot for a bit there's features so I won't be hurting bad on damage and can even subvert the classic Monk image by being a mainly ranged guy.
Basic design principle works for the other subclasses too; I can just favor CON over WIS at creation if I want a sturdier Monk mixing it up in melee soaking a few more hits. Heck, for Gun-Fu or Shadows I could skip the CON boost, bump INT or CHA, and get a little more skill range in there. Could use feats or a quick dip to get expertise, even. Is that sufficiently creative for you, or does that not measure up to hopping on the same meme build there's a couple dozen YouTube videos and other online guides for?
So if stunning strike is just a rider, so is 5e divine smite, but divine smite just does additional damage with no connection to Cha. Even the smite spells with riders deal additional damage even if the the target succeeds the rider just fails. Lay on Hands works with no connection to Cha, and even Aura of Protection will give you a +1 to all saving throw no matter what. You can literally have a negative Charisma mod and be fine as a Paladin gaining a +1 to Aura of Protection. I suppose an fix would be to let Stunning strike add 1d4 damage no matter what.
Even if you wanted to run a no Wisdom Monk you run into the AC problem. You can’t have a 15 or more AC on a Monk with no Wisdom in tier 1 except with Tortle or Loxodon. Since Monk forfeits many of its features by becoming a ranged combatant you are pushed into melee putting you in harms way with your low AC. You will have less AC than most Rouges at every level if you choose to have +0 Wis and less ranged and skirmisher options tan a rogue as well. You said that making attacks is the Monks bread and butter, but if I don’t build Wis to increase my AC I have to use hit and run tactics that mean I can’t make as many attacks. Other classes don’t suffer like this when you mix up their builds.
As for you gun fu Monk I would allow it at my table but RAW it isn’t allowed because firearms in 5e are a separate weapon category. If you made that build with +0 Wis you have 13 AC tops until level 4. If you stand back and shoot at levels 3 and 4 you get one shot. Your base monk features are wasted. Kensei at least has the additional 1d4 to ranged attacks for your bonus action, so your build isn’t terrible once you get to lvl 3. Before that you are a low AC monk who is taking a risk to use monk features because they are melee focused.
Monk is the only MAD class with its AC solely tied to ability scores. Everyone else can choose to wear armor. What’s funny is I don’t want classes to be SAD. I want Monk to function like other MAD classes and have more flexibility. If you take a feat and put your monk in any Armor you lose Martial Arts, and Unarmored Movement which is bad.
I agree with mostly this post but this point, since Barbarian neither gets heavy armour nor can rage in heavy armour, they are still in a position that they need 14 Dexterity (for +2 AC), to perform their best. I think 15+2, 14, 13+1, 8, 12, 10 are probably their best starting ability scores with standard array.
They certainly don't need higher than 14 tho.
Want Dex 14, yes. Need Dex 14 is entirely build dependent. If you are willing to use a shield you can get scale mail at level 1 and have AC 16 while having +0 Dex. This does require you to do a equipment sell off pregame which is allowed in AL, but many home DMs will just let you swap starting items.
That same scale mail with 14 DEX would give you 16AC, and then 18AC with a shield on top, so why go for +0 Dex? Barbarian is generally a front line tanky fighter, you want to reduce incoming damage as much as possible. It is possible to get a 16 starting AC with a monk, tho not entirely recommended, a Monk would normally start with 15 AC (10 + 3 (dex) + 2 (wis). Past this, other than some subclasses, Monk doesn't actually need Wisdom until level 5 for Stunning Strike, the main thing holding Monk back is Ki points, not Wisdom.
Overall, Monk's reliance on stunning strike is in itself an issue, the performance of stunning strike either makes Monk powerful or weak, if you can stun lock the BBEG or even a stronger side enemy, Monk does way too much, but if you fail ( target makes the saves ), monk does way too little. Overall Stunning Strike itself is an issue and needs redesigning. I still personally think that Stunning Strike should be once per turn, but you do not expend the ki/discipline point until you stun, at which point that target gets immunity to stunning strike for 1 minute at the end of their lost turn/round. Then it's just the case of a little bit more damage (more so tier 3/4) and a little bit more survivability and Monk would work fine.
The typical barbarian needs 14 dex to do his job well (which is eating aggro). Could you perform more or less well with +0 dex and shield? Yes. But in my view there is no need to do that.