speaking of Light cantrip, it needs an option to make a spell attack to attach the light to a creature's face, blinding them. feels like every player has themselves tried or knows someone who tried springing that on the dm at least once. save a dm from having to sigh and pull out google: just give it some dex save verbiage (maybe an arcana check to quench, if victim is proficient) and move on down the road.
I've literally never heard of anyone trying that, but:
1. Light can only target objects, not creatures. 2. There's already verbiage with Light for a hostile creature to make a DEX Save if you cast in on an object in their possession. 3. Light is a magical alternative to a torch. The light is no more blinding than torchlight, which is to say: It's not. 4. Blindness already exists as a 2nd-level spell that lasts a minute. Giving it to a cantrip that lasts an hour is absurd.
it's easy to forget that the target must be an object when the most common thing is to either simply state you've cast it or cast it on a friend. anyway, the corrected player then replies "are they wearing a helmet? mask? necklace?" this is weak justification, i know. i didn't sigh and pull out google and my request suffers for it.
yes, but not verbiage regarding blind. even "this cannot be used to blind someone" that would be something.
in movies people lift the lantern to see farther, but in reality that just nullifies the effect the lantern hood has in preserving your night vision. you want to illuminate the surroundings, not your face. if you've ever held a torch, you might have held it farther off to the side to get it out of direct line of view in your desire to see something at a distance. similarly, if someone waved a flashlight/torch in your eyes you might say "ow, scoob, like, now i can't see." players have for years waved a torch in something's face when they were surprised. it's a dm fiat area i'm asking to be addressed.
yes. a cantrip shouldn't do what a leveled spell can do. having said that, it's not beyond the pale and it replaces a lot of more useful actions with less personal risk. if it did work it would likely require additional verbiage about a low DC arcana check or something to snuff it. which would spoil the neat plans of others who might have been happy for years tagging foes with an irremovable light to remain affixed to the target's object (without blind).
...anyway, this began as a throw away thought that i have now exhausted my attention span for. into the wind it goes.
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It occured to me that Produce Flame being a bonus action to cast but an action to use is more awkward than just being an action to cast and use.
If you prep this spell as a bonus action, you're locking yourself out of casting a leveled spell with your action. So it basically requires your whole turn to cast and attack with. Likewise, if you cast a leveled spell with your action, you can't cast this as a bonus action.
They should just keep the increased the range of the light and attack, and keep the fact that it doesn't end when you attack with it, but return it as an action and the ability to attack with it as part of casting.
Acid Splash: It will finally be a good option to choose, print it as it is here.
Blade Ward: I think it turned out well that way, is only 1 attack, although it may have to be revised due to the particular case of the rogue's sneak attack.
Chill Touch: Mmmm, the loss of range hurts me a lot to be more faithful to the name... It doesn't seem compensated enough, so I thought of a proposal, which I thought about so that it is in line with the rest of the name:
You channel the chill of the grave toward one creature you try to touch. Make a melee spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d4 cold damage and 1d6 Necrotic damage. Additionally it can't regain Hit Points until the end of your next turn. Cantrip Upgrade. This spell’s damage increases by one die per damage type when you reach levels 5 (2d4 and 2d6 respectively), 11 (3d4 and 3d6), and 17 (4d4 and 4d6).
It would not be a substantial improvement, only 0.5 on average for each pair of dice, improving your average by 2 points at level 17, with a higher minimum damage, although it is much less simple.
Friends: I like how you improved it, print it as it is here.
Poison Spray: I like that it receives an improvement, it really needs it, but I didn't really like the proposal, although it is true that it was NOT very useful for its saving throw, I DO NOT think that it should be removed to improve it and that it is a good option, so here I bring TWO alternatives:
Range: 20 You launch a mist of toxic energy at a creature within range. The creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw. A creature takes 2d6 poison damage on a failed save, or 1d6 on a successful one. If there is a moderate or stronger wind this spell has no effect. Cantrip Upgrade. This spell's damage increases by 2d6, or 1d6 on a successful one, when you reach levels 5 (4d6, or 2d6), 11 (6d6, or 3d6), and 17 (8d6, or 4d6).
Range: 30 You launch a mist of toxic energy at a creature within range. The creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 3d4 poison damage, this roll will be made with DISADVANTAGE if its distance from the caster is equal to or less than half the spell's range. If there is a moderate or stronger wind this spell has no effect. Cantrip Upgrade. This spell's damage increases by 3d4 when you reach levels 5 (6d4), 11 (9d4), and 17 (12d4).
The 1st would be based on the impossibility (except for Evasion or similar) of avoiding all the damage from the cantrip. The 2nd more to a shotgun effect, at a very short distance its precision/effectiveness is the best, but once it moves away it dissolves in the air as it disperses. The 2nd could expand its debuff range through metamagic or other traits/effects that expand the spell's range. Both are ranged, very short range, and I replaced the d12 with smaller dice because it is NOT a big hit but rather micro damage due to the form of the spell, and to slightly increase the average damage without changing the maximum.
Produce Flame: I like how they improved it, print it as it is here.
Shillelagh: That's what I asked for, but... rangers can no longer have cantrips by default, as in their 1st test, it is evident that druids will hardly be able to take advantage of them.
Magic Stone should be based on this upgrade: Cantrip Upgrade. When you reach levels 5, 11, and 17, you can imbue an additional pebble with magic and the damage of each pebble increases to 1d8, 2d4, and 1d10 respectively.
Shocking Grasp: I understand the limitation to Opportunity Attacks, but the effect should remain for metallic armor.
Spare the Dying: Well, I like that improvement per level, maybe I would add the possibility of using a bonus action, or reaction, immediately after the cantrip to be able to apply the effect to an additional creature, so in case of multiple casualties this cantrip It would be somewhat more useful to be able to stabilize more than one in the turn.
True Strike: Ufff, I urgently needed an improvement (And it also works with ranged attacks.), whatever it is is better than 2014 hahahahaha, I'm not very comfortable with the type of damage, although I don't see it as illogical either. I don't know if the additional dice they added are okay, personally when the character reaches certain levels I would have thought about a bonus to hit and cause critical hits.
SaurianDruid, what leads you to believe that the DRUID cantrip Shillelagh was designed for any other class other than ... Druids?
Because the way it is designed to scale makes it useless for druids after level 5. Druids don't get Extra Attack so they can only make one swing. So while every other offensive druid cantrip just doubled in damage output at level 5 by getting an extra die, Shillelagh's damage only went up by 1-2, as it went from a D8 to a D10. It's a negligible bonus if you're playing a druid.
Now, if you're playing a RANGER and you somehow aquired Shillelagh you hit level 5 and get Extra Attack. Suddenly going from 1d8 to 1D10 actually makes a difference, as you're increasing your damage that turn by 2 to 4 damage, and since you're hitting overall twice a turn the other offensive druid cantrips you could've been using don't rapidly out-scale it.
Shillelagh is fundamentally worse in the hands of a druid than in the hands of a ranger or monk. Granted, this was true in the old iteration of the cantrip too. It just seems weird to redesign it and keep it this way while buffing it in a way that specifically primarily benefits other classes who took Magic Initiate: Druid.
I'd like to see Clerics get access to a greater variety of cantrips. Either some brand new options, or spells like Blade Ward, Gust, Shape Water, Thunderclap, Infestation, & Lightning Lure all seem like they could possibly be thematic for Clerics. And they'd help to diversify the choices- especially for damage cantrips. With only 9 choices, it seems like most Cleric take the same few cantrips every time.
Appart from the scaling of shill which isn't even a strict upgrade at higher levels and doesn't mesh well with druids i am loving most of these changes.
A lot of these are definitely a lot more viable to take.
Also really liking the idea of Bastions. Sounds like a lot of fun to think of ways to personalize where you live and opens a lot of story telling. More incentive to have more downtime also suits me well.
Way to many of my campaigns had peasants ascending to demigods in a span of weeks
Not going to be something for every campaign but it seems like a fun addition when it fits
I love the Bastions... I love that we finally have hard and fast rules for how to build fortresses with players. I like that it's designed in a way where you don't have to micromanage all your hirelings and start doing financing calculations just to use the feature.
That said... I don't think I'd ever use this as-written. Don't get me wrong... I'm glad that the rules exist, and I also like that the core of the feature applies universally to all characters regardless of class or background, and even that it's built around the assumption that every player would have their own Bastion, so that players aren't forced to have a long debate every time their Bastion-use comes up so they can all agree on what they want it to do. However... if I were to use this in-game, I know that I've only got one player I DM for who would use the Bastion for anything other than RP. I'd imagine giving players the whole playtest to read through, but we'd ultimately simplify the system down to what works for our specific table.
And I think that's great! I'd much rather have an overly-robust system in place that we can pare down to what works for our individual tables, instead of what WoTC has mostly been doing with complex systems like this, where it's mostly just left up to the DM to manually create anything more complex than just a large building that you and your friends happen to have access to. I really hope that this means that a more robust crafting system is in the works for the upcoming DMG as well.
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
Maybe add “If you are at least a 5th level Druid, you may make an extra attack each time you use the Attack action with the weapon that has Shillelagh cast upon it.” Plus the usual rider about the additional attack not stacking with other instances of Extra Attack etc.
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
What about giving it normal cantrip scalling but adding a once per turn clause
So you enhance your wood weapon, once per turn you can use your spellcasting modifier for hit/damage and change the weapon dice to 1d8/2d8/3d8/4d8 Scales better, makes it really awkward for extra attack martials who will suddenly have to use wisdom for one attack and strength for another and i don't think It's anything too crazy for a cantrip
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
Maybe add “If you are at least a 5th level Druid, you may make an extra attack each time you use the Attack action with the weapon that has Shillelagh cast upon it.” Plus the usual rider about the additional attack not stacking with other instances of Extra Attack etc.
Too strong?
That might be interesting for Primal Order Wardens, if it was an upgrade, extra attack, they get at 5th or 6th level (like bladesinger), and not necessarily part of the cantrip itself.
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
What about giving it normal cantrip scalling but adding a once per turn clause
So you enhance your wood weapon, once per turn you can use your spellcasting modifier for hit/damage and change the weapon dice to 1d8/2d8/3d8/4d8 Scales better, makes it really awkward for extra attack martials who will suddenly have to use wisdom for one attack and strength for another and i don't think It's anything too crazy for a cantrip
Adding the once per turn clause might be confusing and adding stat damage usually doesn’t go on scaling cantrips, except Eldritch Blast, which requires an invocation. But worth a look into.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
Yah, the duration is what makes it unique but also what makes it better for martials. Shillelagh's problem is it'll get out-scaled by every other druid cantrip eventually. Ideally, I'd like to be able to use my fey bonk stick attack well into the late game.
Granted, Shillelagh benefits from the druid's Primal Strike bonuses now, which closes the gap a fair bit. But then the other cantrips can also benefit from Potent Spellcasting to get the +5 WIS mod to damage.
So Shillelagh on druid is 1D12+5+2D8 = 19 average damage. Produce Flame is 3D8+5 = 17 average damage, but Produce Flame is ranged and has other utility. Primal Savagery is 3D10+5 = 20 average damage. All assuming level 15.
So if you went hard on a weapon-using/Wildshaping druid Shillelagh is probably worth it. At least until 17th level when the other cantrips get an extra die and Shillelagh gets a .5 damage increase. I think Shillelagh could do better than going from 1D12 to 2D6.
Ranger still uses it a little better with 1D12+5 + 1d12+5 = 22 average damage (28 if using a 1st-level Hunter's Mark, because who knows what that spell/feature will look like in the final game). If they make it so that rangers can get cantrips naturally again I think this would bother me less because then it'd be a natural part of their kit rather than a feat or druid dip.
Or heck, maybe it's fine as is and Druid can be the ranger's hexblade dip equivalent. Rangers being the best fey bonk stick wielders isn't necessarily bad for gameplay, it just seems weird to me they'd update Shillelagh to favor their playstyle even more than it already did.
It occured to me that Produce Flame being a bonus action to cast but an action to use is more awkward than just being an action to cast and use.
If you prep this spell as a bonus action, you're locking yourself out of casting a leveled spell with your action. So it basically requires your whole turn to cast and attack with. Likewise, if you cast a leveled spell with your action, you can't cast this as a bonus action.
They should just keep the increased the range of the light and attack, and keep the fact that it doesn't end when you attack with it, but return it as an action and the ability to attack with it as part of casting.
It has a duration of 10 minutes the produced flame does not go out when used as an attack now, so just assume its up at all times unless it does not fit like maybe not in the courtroom. It the odd case its down you can still get it going in one turn and are really just giving up a bonus action which you don't always use anyways.
I don't understand why can target an object is so rare in cantrips. It should just be if it makes sense that would do damage to an object it effects objects. So most of them should be able to target creatures and objects. And it gets silly you can shocking grasp a animated suit of armor but not a suit of armor. Like sure poison wont effect object as a general rule. but acid, lightning, force all seem as likely as fire.
speaking of Light cantrip, it needs an option to make a spell attack to attach the light to a creature's face, blinding them. feels like every player has themselves tried or knows someone who tried springing that on the dm at least once. save a dm from having to sigh and pull out google: just give it some dex save verbiage (maybe an arcana check to quench, if victim is proficient) and move on down the road.
I've literally never heard of anyone trying that, but:
1. Light can only target objects, not creatures. 2. There's already verbiage with Light for a hostile creature to make a DEX Save if you cast in on an object in their possession. 3. Light is a magical alternative to a torch. The light is no more blinding than torchlight, which is to say: It's not. 4. Blindness already exists as a 2nd-level spell that lasts a minute. Giving it to a cantrip that lasts an hour is absurd.
Not meant as an attack but my guess it is because you are either too young or did not play earlier editions of D&D. It used to be a default ability of the spell. But back then they did not have cantrips so it had to keep up with 1st level spells.
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...anyway, this began as a throw away thought that i have now exhausted my attention span for. into the wind it goes.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
It occured to me that Produce Flame being a bonus action to cast but an action to use is more awkward than just being an action to cast and use.
If you prep this spell as a bonus action, you're locking yourself out of casting a leveled spell with your action. So it basically requires your whole turn to cast and attack with. Likewise, if you cast a leveled spell with your action, you can't cast this as a bonus action.
They should just keep the increased the range of the light and attack, and keep the fact that it doesn't end when you attack with it, but return it as an action and the ability to attack with it as part of casting.
Acid Splash: It will finally be a good option to choose, print it as it is here.
Blade Ward: I think it turned out well that way, is only 1 attack, although it may have to be revised due to the particular case of the rogue's sneak attack.
Chill Touch: Mmmm, the loss of range hurts me a lot to be more faithful to the name... It doesn't seem compensated enough, so I thought of a proposal, which I thought about so that it is in line with the rest of the name:
It would not be a substantial improvement, only 0.5 on average for each pair of dice, improving your average by 2 points at level 17, with a higher minimum damage, although it is much less simple.
Friends: I like how you improved it, print it as it is here.
Poison Spray: I like that it receives an improvement, it really needs it, but I didn't really like the proposal, although it is true that it was NOT very useful for its saving throw, I DO NOT think that it should be removed to improve it and that it is a good option, so here I bring TWO alternatives:
The 1st would be based on the impossibility (except for Evasion or similar) of avoiding all the damage from the cantrip. The 2nd more to a shotgun effect, at a very short distance its precision/effectiveness is the best, but once it moves away it dissolves in the air as it disperses. The 2nd could expand its debuff range through metamagic or other traits/effects that expand the spell's range. Both are ranged, very short range, and I replaced the d12 with smaller dice because it is NOT a big hit but rather micro damage due to the form of the spell, and to slightly increase the average damage without changing the maximum.
Produce Flame: I like how they improved it, print it as it is here.
Shillelagh: That's what I asked for, but... rangers can no longer have cantrips by default, as in their 1st test, it is evident that druids will hardly be able to take advantage of them.
Magic Stone should be based on this upgrade: Cantrip Upgrade. When you reach levels 5, 11, and 17, you can imbue an additional pebble with magic and the damage of each pebble increases to 1d8, 2d4, and 1d10 respectively.
Shocking Grasp: I understand the limitation to Opportunity Attacks, but the effect should remain for metallic armor.
Spare the Dying: Well, I like that improvement per level, maybe I would add the possibility of using a bonus action, or reaction, immediately after the cantrip to be able to apply the effect to an additional creature, so in case of multiple casualties this cantrip It would be somewhat more useful to be able to stabilize more than one in the turn.
True Strike: Ufff, I urgently needed an improvement (And it also works with ranged attacks.), whatever it is is better than 2014 hahahahaha, I'm not very comfortable with the type of damage, although I don't see it as illogical either. I don't know if the additional dice they added are okay, personally when the character reaches certain levels I would have thought about a bonus to hit and cause critical hits.
SaurianDruid, what leads you to believe that the DRUID cantrip Shillelagh was designed for any other class other than ... Druids?
In 2024 D&D, you don't save for half damage on poison anymore. You save against the Poisoned condition.
Because the way it is designed to scale makes it useless for druids after level 5. Druids don't get Extra Attack so they can only make one swing. So while every other offensive druid cantrip just doubled in damage output at level 5 by getting an extra die, Shillelagh's damage only went up by 1-2, as it went from a D8 to a D10. It's a negligible bonus if you're playing a druid.
Now, if you're playing a RANGER and you somehow aquired Shillelagh you hit level 5 and get Extra Attack. Suddenly going from 1d8 to 1D10 actually makes a difference, as you're increasing your damage that turn by 2 to 4 damage, and since you're hitting overall twice a turn the other offensive druid cantrips you could've been using don't rapidly out-scale it.
Shillelagh is fundamentally worse in the hands of a druid than in the hands of a ranger or monk. Granted, this was true in the old iteration of the cantrip too. It just seems weird to redesign it and keep it this way while buffing it in a way that specifically primarily benefits other classes who took Magic Initiate: Druid.
I'd like to see Clerics get access to a greater variety of cantrips. Either some brand new options, or spells like Blade Ward, Gust, Shape Water, Thunderclap, Infestation, & Lightning Lure all seem like they could possibly be thematic for Clerics. And they'd help to diversify the choices- especially for damage cantrips. With only 9 choices, it seems like most Cleric take the same few cantrips every time.
Appart from the scaling of shill which isn't even a strict upgrade at higher levels and doesn't mesh well with druids i am loving most of these changes.
A lot of these are definitely a lot more viable to take.
Also really liking the idea of Bastions. Sounds like a lot of fun to think of ways to personalize where you live and opens a lot of story telling. More incentive to have more downtime also suits me well.
Way to many of my campaigns had peasants ascending to demigods in a span of weeks
Not going to be something for every campaign but it seems like a fun addition when it fits
I love the Bastions... I love that we finally have hard and fast rules for how to build fortresses with players. I like that it's designed in a way where you don't have to micromanage all your hirelings and start doing financing calculations just to use the feature.
That said... I don't think I'd ever use this as-written. Don't get me wrong... I'm glad that the rules exist, and I also like that the core of the feature applies universally to all characters regardless of class or background, and even that it's built around the assumption that every player would have their own Bastion, so that players aren't forced to have a long debate every time their Bastion-use comes up so they can all agree on what they want it to do. However... if I were to use this in-game, I know that I've only got one player I DM for who would use the Bastion for anything other than RP. I'd imagine giving players the whole playtest to read through, but we'd ultimately simplify the system down to what works for our specific table.
And I think that's great! I'd much rather have an overly-robust system in place that we can pare down to what works for our individual tables, instead of what WoTC has mostly been doing with complex systems like this, where it's mostly just left up to the DM to manually create anything more complex than just a large building that you and your friends happen to have access to. I really hope that this means that a more robust crafting system is in the works for the upcoming DMG as well.
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SaurionDruid,
I suppose every game is different. I have gamed Druids since 2014 and have used Shillelagh at every level from 1-20. It has never been my first choice in defending my character, but it has always been a decent choice. If it turns out that force damage is treated as more powerful this time around due to "magic bludgeoning" being replaced with "force" it might turn out to work even better than before. Just my thoughts...
As a 20th-level druid, you were in a situation where dealing 1D8+5 damage was the optimal play? At a point in the game where players are throwing around over a hundred damage a turn?
Also, even if it turns out Force Damage is OP it'd still be a better cantrip on Ranger than on Druid because rangers get to swing twice and deal double the damage with it as a druid could. The cantrip is just fundamentally designed to be stronger in the hands of a martial/half-caster than in the hands of a druid. I'm not saying you can't take it and get some value out of it as a druid, I am saying it feels weird that a druid can't maximize the power of a druid cantrip.
I think Shillelagh could have scaled up to 3d6 or 2d8 (instead of 2d6, which I thought was a typo). But I don’t think they could have scaled it like BB/GFB due to the duration.
I get what you are saying, but as JC put it, cantrips are seen as backups. Things you use when you can’t or don’t want to use a leveled spell. If a Druid is in a situation where a minion is on them they might not want to waste a leveled spell. (Although Primal Savagery might be the better damage option in that case depending on level).
Im just not sure how to boost it more to let Druids get more benefit than an extra attack martial.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Maybe add “If you are at least a 5th level Druid, you may make an extra attack each time you use the Attack action with the weapon that has Shillelagh cast upon it.” Plus the usual rider about the additional attack not stacking with other instances of Extra Attack etc.
Too strong?
What about giving it normal cantrip scalling but adding a once per turn clause
So you enhance your wood weapon, once per turn you can use your spellcasting modifier for hit/damage and change the weapon dice to 1d8/2d8/3d8/4d8
Scales better, makes it really awkward for extra attack martials who will suddenly have to use wisdom for one attack and strength for another and i don't think It's anything too crazy for a cantrip
That might be interesting for Primal Order Wardens, if it was an upgrade, extra attack, they get at 5th or 6th level (like bladesinger), and not necessarily part of the cantrip itself.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Adding the once per turn clause might be confusing and adding stat damage usually doesn’t go on scaling cantrips, except Eldritch Blast, which requires an invocation. But worth a look into.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yah, the duration is what makes it unique but also what makes it better for martials. Shillelagh's problem is it'll get out-scaled by every other druid cantrip eventually. Ideally, I'd like to be able to use my fey bonk stick attack well into the late game.
Granted, Shillelagh benefits from the druid's Primal Strike bonuses now, which closes the gap a fair bit. But then the other cantrips can also benefit from Potent Spellcasting to get the +5 WIS mod to damage.
So Shillelagh on druid is 1D12+5+2D8 = 19 average damage. Produce Flame is 3D8+5 = 17 average damage, but Produce Flame is ranged and has other utility. Primal Savagery is 3D10+5 = 20 average damage. All assuming level 15.
So if you went hard on a weapon-using/Wildshaping druid Shillelagh is probably worth it. At least until 17th level when the other cantrips get an extra die and Shillelagh gets a .5 damage increase. I think Shillelagh could do better than going from 1D12 to 2D6.
Ranger still uses it a little better with 1D12+5 + 1d12+5 = 22 average damage (28 if using a 1st-level Hunter's Mark, because who knows what that spell/feature will look like in the final game). If they make it so that rangers can get cantrips naturally again I think this would bother me less because then it'd be a natural part of their kit rather than a feat or druid dip.
Or heck, maybe it's fine as is and Druid can be the ranger's hexblade dip equivalent. Rangers being the best fey bonk stick wielders isn't necessarily bad for gameplay, it just seems weird to me they'd update Shillelagh to favor their playstyle even more than it already did.
It has a duration of 10 minutes the produced flame does not go out when used as an attack now, so just assume its up at all times unless it does not fit like maybe not in the courtroom. It the odd case its down you can still get it going in one turn and are really just giving up a bonus action which you don't always use anyways.
I don't understand why can target an object is so rare in cantrips. It should just be if it makes sense that would do damage to an object it effects objects. So most of them should be able to target creatures and objects. And it gets silly you can shocking grasp a animated suit of armor but not a suit of armor. Like sure poison wont effect object as a general rule. but acid, lightning, force all seem as likely as fire.
Not meant as an attack but my guess it is because you are either too young or did not play earlier editions of D&D. It used to be a default ability of the spell. But back then they did not have cantrips so it had to keep up with 1st level spells.