So, there is a thread over at the DNDNext reddit discussing impressions about the return of the Masterwork Weapon, as a product of a Bastion smithy.
Many comments there correctly, in my opinion, identify that making a masterwork weapon in of itself does... nothing. That weaponsmith, making the very best weapon they are able to craft, is only able to provide a functional cast mould for a future spell (Magic Weapon) to finalise. That's a bit sad. That there can be no superior non-magical quality, no difference between an apprentice's first blade and the product of a master of the craft.
So, is this good enough? Or can we do one better?
My suggestion over there, which I'll echo here, was to allow a proficient wielder of a masterwork quality weapon use the Mastery trait of the weapon without having the Weapon Mastery class feature. But if you did happen to have Weapon Mastery for that weapon type, you'll enjoy the +1 enhancement bonus that a magical weapon normally provide. Because the weapon is just that shiny.
This way, there would not be a need for wizardry in creating a masterpiece, and both proficient users and weapon masters would be able to enjoy additional benefits of using a masterwork item. It would be feature complete upon release. (A term we seldom see these days ;) )
A masterwork weapon only needs magic weapon cast on it once and becomes a permanent +1 weapon. To make a +1 weapon yourself you need to expend a spell slot each day of the construction. So masterwork is better for non mages.
This just gave me an idea for a masterwork weapon that’s maybe been a family heirloom, but never had magic weapon cast on it, because no one really appreciated just how masterwork it was. So now when the farmhand takes her old family sword that’s been passed down for generations, someone can eventually cast it on the sword, and give the character a reason to keep using the thing for a while longer.
I believe it would be faster and cheaper to craft a +1 weapon yourself.
Yep! That's the perplexing part. With Xanathar's downtime crafting guides, making a +1 Weapon (an Uncommon item), takes 2 work weeks and 200 gp. In the Bastion rules, making a masterwork weapon takes 3 weeks and 800gp. Sure, yes, you commission this piece, so you can go about doing other things at the same time. But still? Four times the cost? For less?
And either way, at the end you'll end up with a magical weapon. So, there's very little point to having masterwork items, if they're just a stepping stone. My argument is that they ought to be an item classification in their own right. And a useful one, at that.
Why do I want this? Not entirely sure, actually. A part of me just like the idea of an item of great quality, rare materials, or exquisite design that performs better than the bargain bin version - and yet, is not enchanted.
I feel like there's room in the story ecology niche for such items, right? Maybe it's made from a rare material that resists enchantment? Maybe it is for bringing into a magic dead zone?Maybe it's made for a group or culture that abhors magic, and instead have mastered techniques to make superior arms and armour?
I dunno. I guess I'm just a teensy bit disappointed with the current take on masterwork items :)
Actually the expense part doesn’t bother me. If I need something fixed around the house and I hire someone, it will definitely be more expensive than doing it myself. And, since I’ll have to wait for them to fit me in their schedule, it will probably take longer to get done. But I get the benefit of being able to do other things with my Saturday. So I can pay with my money or with my time. This reflects that kind of dynamic. Spend those two weeks out saving the world and looting a dungeon, instead of slaving over an anvil, you’ll net a profit.
And the xanathar’s way also requires you to find a recipe, and possibly quest for specific ingredients. With this way, you just do it.
All that non-sense with having to cast something on it etc. is just needless busywork and by no means thematic.
Just have that be part of the process of the building. Flavor it with magic battle smiths or whatever. At the end should be a new +1/+1 weapon.
Later upgrades should let you upgrade a +1 weapon to +2 and later to +3.
You can always upcast Magic Weapon with a 4th or 6th level spell slot. I don't see why a higher level slot shouldn't enchant at a higher level.
Heck, it should also be opened up to Elemental Weapon. Even the Spell Scroll equivalents are the same rarity and cost, so there'd be some degree of parity.
The only thing I can think of would be something like, "When you successfully hit an enemy with a masterwork weapon the enemy's AC is reduced by 1 until the end of your turn." This would represent the lightness and speed of the weapon in your hand. You're able to wield it with such speed that your strike leaves the enemy's defenses lowered for a split second. Maybe even let it stack so if you're a very high level Fighter with a masterwork weapon you can reduce the enemy's AC by up to 3 if each successive blow lands before your final hit.
Because it resets at the end of your turn it won't stack to crazy levels or help your allies get hits in, so I don't think it'd be OP. It also strongly favors martial classes with Extra Attack, which seems fair. You need to be a master duelist before the quality of your weapon starts to make a difference.
The only thing I can think of would be something like, "When you successfully hit an enemy with a masterwork weapon the enemy's AC is reduced by 1 until the end of your turn." This would represent the lightness and speed of the weapon in your hand. You're able to wield it with such speed that your strike leaves the enemy's defenses lowered for a split second. Maybe even let it stack so if you're a very high level Fighter with a masterwork weapon you can reduce the enemy's AC by up to 3 if each successive blow lands before your final hit.
Because it resets at the end of your turn it won't stack to crazy levels or help your allies get hits in, so I don't think it'd be OP. It also strongly favors martial classes with Extra Attack, which seems fair. You need to be a master duelist before the quality of your weapon starts to make a difference.
It is very important to not introduce more bloat features, especially features that better fit other weapon types, or are expected to already exist in the game (or are we arguing that NONE of the magical weapons that exist were masterwork before being enchanted [or does the enchanting process somehow destroy the quality of the weapon?]).
A +1 to attack or +1 to damage should be the limit of masterwork, and enchanting should "replace", but also be somehow easier to perform on a masterwork vs non-masterwork weapon.
The Masterwork Weapons are pointless, it's only function is that if a DM uses Bastions and is cheap with magical items, players at least get a +1, but that aside, it's kind of lazy too.
Personally I like the idea of opening it up to more spells, but also to make them upgradable, so if say, you got the bones of a CR6 large creature, you can add an additional enchantment to that, if that enchantment is another magical weapon, then it stacks to a +2, or +3 if already at +2. With a few more materials at CR 11, CR 15 & CR 19. Then just have spells like elemental weapon add a 1d6 permanently to the weapon and spells like enlarge/reduce allow it to chance size, animate object to makes it able to function as a floating weapon and what not. Could have been a lot of crazy and wonderful ideas here but the current implementation is kinda... lackluster.
It is very important to not introduce more bloat features, especially features that better fit other weapon types, or are expected to already exist in the game (or are we arguing that NONE of the magical weapons that exist were masterwork before being enchanted [or does the enchanting process somehow destroy the quality of the weapon?]).
A +1 to attack or +1 to damage should be the limit of masterwork, and enchanting should "replace", but also be somehow easier to perform on a masterwork vs non-masterwork weapon.
That's our Bozzybuddy coming in with the importance of being aware of Parasitic Design. Good on you, Boz! :)
Whenever possible, game designers ought to work with previously established mechanics to avoid an ever increasing number of things to keep track of, that ultimately takes away from the gaming experience. There are many things in RPG design that aren't zero-sum, but player attention is unfortunately one of them.
And, yeah, Masterwork (in my opinion) should exist in the space between mundane and enchanted items. As uncommon items, but made available at at earlier levels.
3 types or "levels," if you want to get particular: +1 to damage, +1 to hit, +1 to hit and damage. But just a "+1 non-magical weapon" should be enough. Remember, there are creatures resistant or immune to damage from non-magical weapons, so this is a fine intermediate, and a worthwhile GP expenditure and upgrade -- especially for your backup weapons at Tier 2 or higher, so you're not locked in to just using your magic weapon because it's numerically superior.
And, yeah, Masterwork (in my opinion) should exist in the space between mundane and enchanted items. As uncommon items, but made available at at earlier levels.
I could VERY easily see masterwork literally *be* up to a +1 weapon, provided exceptional skill and materials are used (not just the town cobbler working with shovel-grade iron).
I was a bit sad to see there was no mention of Masterwork Armor, though I'm curious if we'll see that expanded out when they start doing more DMG UA material.
As for "masterwork weapons no longer represent the highest quality non-magical item", it's because there's no mechnical purpose for it in 5e. In 3.5, whether or not your weapon was magical made much less of a difference, whereas in 5e it is necessary to have a magical weapon to overcome the base resistance of many mid-to-high level monsters.
Though on that note, there's a weird disconnect in the sense that they've been removing the existence of generic "magic" damage from class features, but we've yet to see if that means they're going to change how monster resistances work. If there's no longer a binary of needing a magic weapon to overcome resistance/immunity, then that makes room for the existence of exceptional non-magical items.
I'm sure the reason the masterwork weapon requires enchantment in the UA is to incentivize players to work together to create the item. I feel like the implication from this UA is that a masterwork item is an item that is so well crafted it is capable of receiving enchantment. Again, I'm hoping this is a sneak peak at something they plan to expand upon in later UAs.
I could VERY easily see masterwork literally *be* up to a +1 weapon, provided exceptional skill and materials are used (not just the town cobbler working with shovel-grade iron).
Oh! Since +1 weapons being uncommon, they could just rebranded as superior quality? And the +2 or higher sporting the "you may deal weapon damage as force damage" trait to signify them being magical? That'd actually work really well!
3 types or "levels," if you want to get particular: +1 to damage, +1 to hit, +1 to hit and damage. But just a "+1 non-magical weapon" should be enough. Remember, there are creatures resistant or immune to damage from non-magical weapons, so this is a fine intermediate, and a worthwhile GP expenditure and upgrade -- especially for your backup weapons at Tier 2 or higher, so you're not locked in to just using your magic weapon because it's numerically superior.
With the monsters changing from magic weapons to force damage, we can't assume their resistances will remain unchanged.
Hell, we can't assume magic weapons won't deal force damage instead of b/p/s.
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So, there is a thread over at the DNDNext reddit discussing impressions about the return of the Masterwork Weapon, as a product of a Bastion smithy.
Many comments there correctly, in my opinion, identify that making a masterwork weapon in of itself does... nothing. That weaponsmith, making the very best weapon they are able to craft, is only able to provide a functional cast mould for a future spell (Magic Weapon) to finalise. That's a bit sad. That there can be no superior non-magical quality, no difference between an apprentice's first blade and the product of a master of the craft.
So, is this good enough? Or can we do one better?
My suggestion over there, which I'll echo here, was to allow a proficient wielder of a masterwork quality weapon use the Mastery trait of the weapon without having the Weapon Mastery class feature. But if you did happen to have Weapon Mastery for that weapon type, you'll enjoy the +1 enhancement bonus that a magical weapon normally provide. Because the weapon is just that shiny.
This way, there would not be a need for wizardry in creating a masterpiece, and both proficient users and weapon masters would be able to enjoy additional benefits of using a masterwork item. It would be feature complete upon release. (A term we seldom see these days ;) )
Or perhaps give a higher level Bastion Feature that allows you to cast Magic Weapon?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
A masterwork weapon only needs magic weapon cast on it once and becomes a permanent +1 weapon. To make a +1 weapon yourself you need to expend a spell slot each day of the construction. So masterwork is better for non mages.
I would have enjoyed seeing a permanent +1 to damage only, for a Masterwork Weapon. As if the sword is sharper or more resilient to dulling.
On the other hand, 5e is about simplicity and having another modifier to remember might be against their master plan. LOL
Then gain the +1 to hit also, when it becomes "magical"...
All that non-sense with having to cast something on it etc. is just needless busywork and by no means thematic.
Just have that be part of the process of the building. Flavor it with magic battle smiths or whatever. At the end should be a new +1/+1 weapon.
Later upgrades should let you upgrade a +1 weapon to +2 and later to +3.
This just gave me an idea for a masterwork weapon that’s maybe been a family heirloom, but never had magic weapon cast on it, because no one really appreciated just how masterwork it was. So now when the farmhand takes her old family sword that’s been passed down for generations, someone can eventually cast it on the sword, and give the character a reason to keep using the thing for a while longer.
I believe it would be faster and cheaper to craft a +1 weapon yourself.
Yep! That's the perplexing part. With Xanathar's downtime crafting guides, making a +1 Weapon (an Uncommon item), takes 2 work weeks and 200 gp. In the Bastion rules, making a masterwork weapon takes 3 weeks and 800gp. Sure, yes, you commission this piece, so you can go about doing other things at the same time. But still? Four times the cost? For less?
And either way, at the end you'll end up with a magical weapon. So, there's very little point to having masterwork items, if they're just a stepping stone. My argument is that they ought to be an item classification in their own right. And a useful one, at that.
Why do I want this? Not entirely sure, actually. A part of me just like the idea of an item of great quality, rare materials, or exquisite design that performs better than the bargain bin version - and yet, is not enchanted.
I feel like there's room in the story ecology niche for such items, right? Maybe it's made from a rare material that resists enchantment? Maybe it is for bringing into a magic dead zone?Maybe it's made for a group or culture that abhors magic, and instead have mastered techniques to make superior arms and armour?
I dunno. I guess I'm just a teensy bit disappointed with the current take on masterwork items :)
Actually the expense part doesn’t bother me. If I need something fixed around the house and I hire someone, it will definitely be more expensive than doing it myself. And, since I’ll have to wait for them to fit me in their schedule, it will probably take longer to get done. But I get the benefit of being able to do other things with my Saturday. So I can pay with my money or with my time. This reflects that kind of dynamic. Spend those two weeks out saving the world and looting a dungeon, instead of slaving over an anvil, you’ll net a profit.
And the xanathar’s way also requires you to find a recipe, and possibly quest for specific ingredients. With this way, you just do it.
You can always upcast Magic Weapon with a 4th or 6th level spell slot. I don't see why a higher level slot shouldn't enchant at a higher level.
Heck, it should also be opened up to Elemental Weapon. Even the Spell Scroll equivalents are the same rarity and cost, so there'd be some degree of parity.
The only thing I can think of would be something like, "When you successfully hit an enemy with a masterwork weapon the enemy's AC is reduced by 1 until the end of your turn." This would represent the lightness and speed of the weapon in your hand. You're able to wield it with such speed that your strike leaves the enemy's defenses lowered for a split second. Maybe even let it stack so if you're a very high level Fighter with a masterwork weapon you can reduce the enemy's AC by up to 3 if each successive blow lands before your final hit.
Because it resets at the end of your turn it won't stack to crazy levels or help your allies get hits in, so I don't think it'd be OP. It also strongly favors martial classes with Extra Attack, which seems fair. You need to be a master duelist before the quality of your weapon starts to make a difference.
It is very important to not introduce more bloat features, especially features that better fit other weapon types, or are expected to already exist in the game (or are we arguing that NONE of the magical weapons that exist were masterwork before being enchanted [or does the enchanting process somehow destroy the quality of the weapon?]).
A +1 to attack or +1 to damage should be the limit of masterwork, and enchanting should "replace", but also be somehow easier to perform on a masterwork vs non-masterwork weapon.
The Masterwork Weapons are pointless, it's only function is that if a DM uses Bastions and is cheap with magical items, players at least get a +1, but that aside, it's kind of lazy too.
Personally I like the idea of opening it up to more spells, but also to make them upgradable, so if say, you got the bones of a CR6 large creature, you can add an additional enchantment to that, if that enchantment is another magical weapon, then it stacks to a +2, or +3 if already at +2. With a few more materials at CR 11, CR 15 & CR 19. Then just have spells like elemental weapon add a 1d6 permanently to the weapon and spells like enlarge/reduce allow it to chance size, animate object to makes it able to function as a floating weapon and what not. Could have been a lot of crazy and wonderful ideas here but the current implementation is kinda... lackluster.
That's our Bozzybuddy coming in with the importance of being aware of Parasitic Design. Good on you, Boz! :)
Whenever possible, game designers ought to work with previously established mechanics to avoid an ever increasing number of things to keep track of, that ultimately takes away from the gaming experience. There are many things in RPG design that aren't zero-sum, but player attention is unfortunately one of them.
And, yeah, Masterwork (in my opinion) should exist in the space between mundane and enchanted items. As uncommon items, but made available at at earlier levels.
Masterwork +1 weapons should exist, period.
3 types or "levels," if you want to get particular: +1 to damage, +1 to hit, +1 to hit and damage. But just a "+1 non-magical weapon" should be enough. Remember, there are creatures resistant or immune to damage from non-magical weapons, so this is a fine intermediate, and a worthwhile GP expenditure and upgrade -- especially for your backup weapons at Tier 2 or higher, so you're not locked in to just using your magic weapon because it's numerically superior.
I could VERY easily see masterwork literally *be* up to a +1 weapon, provided exceptional skill and materials are used (not just the town cobbler working with shovel-grade iron).
I was a bit sad to see there was no mention of Masterwork Armor, though I'm curious if we'll see that expanded out when they start doing more DMG UA material.
As for "masterwork weapons no longer represent the highest quality non-magical item", it's because there's no mechnical purpose for it in 5e. In 3.5, whether or not your weapon was magical made much less of a difference, whereas in 5e it is necessary to have a magical weapon to overcome the base resistance of many mid-to-high level monsters.
Though on that note, there's a weird disconnect in the sense that they've been removing the existence of generic "magic" damage from class features, but we've yet to see if that means they're going to change how monster resistances work. If there's no longer a binary of needing a magic weapon to overcome resistance/immunity, then that makes room for the existence of exceptional non-magical items.
I'm sure the reason the masterwork weapon requires enchantment in the UA is to incentivize players to work together to create the item. I feel like the implication from this UA is that a masterwork item is an item that is so well crafted it is capable of receiving enchantment. Again, I'm hoping this is a sneak peak at something they plan to expand upon in later UAs.
Oh! Since +1 weapons being uncommon, they could just rebranded as superior quality? And the +2 or higher sporting the "you may deal weapon damage as force damage" trait to signify them being magical? That'd actually work really well!
With the monsters changing from magic weapons to force damage, we can't assume their resistances will remain unchanged.
Hell, we can't assume magic weapons won't deal force damage instead of b/p/s.