Crafting, right now, is exceptionally popular. So I suspect there is a high chance that they will include rules on it.
Is it? The reality of crafting systems is that they're things people find interesting in theory and in actual play they are one or more of game breaking, boring, annoying, or useless.
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
While I don't monitor YouTube stuff (because, well, I have negative thoughts regarding youtube anything, so my bias keeps me away), there is enough there as well that it is an issue.
So it is popular right now, and I don't disagree with the boring aspect of actual play, it is also a thing that many are interested in seeing more of and more support for in the base game. Hell, there's even a steadily growing assortment of "I wanna play a merchant" type stuff out there. It's been out there since at least the 90's, and some games did enable it, but they want to do it D&D, and so over what, 25 years they've been growing.
The crafting system I did for my folks is not even close to as complicated as some I've seen -- yet here I am having to revisit it 8 years later to work it into Bastions (which are a go for my folks), and I still don't plan to make it more than "you got the stuff, make a roll, ok done". it is a downtime activity for my games.
And the blk of the issues lie in the "uptime" and "the stuff" parts -- some folks want to make their characters all some sort of artificers doing stuff in a dungeon on the run, I guess, while others want the whole "recipe for success" thing.
Neither of which appeals to me personally -- but that doesn't mean they aren't possibly popular enough, since 5e is built pretty much on the whole basis of what is the popular choice.
So, we will either see it in the books or we won't. My interest is in how they do it. I want to see them make it stuff that is possible from a player's standpoint, you stated you disagree.
That's fine. I can't speak to what's more popular between those two positions -- I've never attempted to look into it.
But given the popularity, I do think we will get at least some idea, and that it likely will be a part of a UA.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
A Lore Color Resource type would work wonderfully for some games, and super lousy for others.
Simple truth is, no matter how popular an idea crafting rules in 5e are, they haven't been a focus overtly beyond that attempt to enrich them in XGE, which built off the existing system.
I have no problems with saying to my folks "you need a special resource for this" when they go to make something -- that's pretty much how the current rules operate for magical items. They even suggest it be something from within this CR range, based on the rarity of the item. Which makes it very much that kind of abstract system -- it is what we have now, if we were to follow the rules, just without the "list of suggested ingredients" that is really what a lot of folks want.
So we already have those two types of players. I am naturally inclined to suspect there are at least five types, but there is a whole cultural deal there and I won't go into it.
My big thing about crafting is that if we are going to have it, and we are going to allow creation of magical items, then those magical items should be able to be created using the spells that are available to players. The Bastion stuff really drove this home to me -- how the hell do they create teleportation circles and dimensional spaces that are permanent when there is no spell that they have (outside of wish) that allows them to create such things?
I would confine and build it for crafting the stuff they need normally -- and I recognize that isn't much because the game generally doesn't have many ways of "breaking gear", lol. Then enable magical creation as an add-on to that.
I disagree, I don't think crafting should be heavily linked to classes. the scientist, or engineer, magic or otherwise, reason for creating items is to eliminate the need for people to be casters/wizards in order to gain functionality. This would be like requiring a horse, to make a car. The whole reason I design a car is so I don't need a horse. But even that aside, the type of character that wants to design/create magical items, is not necessarily the kind of guy who wants to be a wizard.
As well, many of the things one might wish to craft, are not replicated by spells.
I am confused about the "heavily linked to classes" thing -- I made no mention of classes.
Well, if you need to cast a spell to make a magic item then most Fighters won't be able to make it.
Unless they contract someone to do it for them.
If I introduce a spell that the BBEG can do and my players can't, I have a half dozen players crawling up my hind end wanting to find, create, duplicate, use that spell, lol.
I will totally admit that part of that is my fault -- I encourage them to create their own spells, and they have to find or buy or something to get any (I give out spells as treasure).
So that kind of thought isn't always applicable -- and some fighters *can* use magic, , so even then that thinking kind of glosses over a few things.
I didn't mention classes because I wasn't thinking in terms of classes -- I was thinking in terms of what players can access to create these things as a party.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
LOL, well, I am a bad choice. Apparently BOTW players love that crafting system and find it fun.
I don't do video games in general (I play only one, and its crafting style is fetch quests to upgrade gear), and I don't mind it at all, myself, but I wouldn't want to do it in D&D.
So really, I can't answer that question, as an individual. Fun is very subjective, as well -- and given the popularity of many games, and those same articles on the topic, I would say the one folks find most fun is something like BOTW (which is way more complex).
As I am a DM, I want something that allows me greater narrative possibility and that can be used for storyline development, and as long as it then makes my players happy, I'm pretty open unless it has huge overhead.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
Not that I think it is particularly useful, but Minecraft has been about the most popular video game in existence for quite a while. One of its major aspects is crafting, so I assume that must be considered fun for the multitudes of people playing it. I don't necessarily think that its system would translate well into a TTRPG, though.
Baldur's Gate 3 has a crafting system. And it's D&D. They really could find a way to just... Take it. It works pretty well.
Actually it has several crafting systems. There's the main one, wherein you pick up little scraps of stuff all over the place and combine them together in your inventory based on recipes that automatically reveal themselves when you pick up the related ingredient. But then there are some secret ones.
One of the choosable backgrounds is Guild Artisan. I don't think any of the "origin characters" have it, so you'll only get it if you make your own character. The backgrounds give you inspiration at certain checkpoints based on the things you do. (Ex: Acolytes get inspiration when you enter a certain secret temple.) Guild Artisans get inspiration when you use a secret crafting system!
They all pretty much work the same way. There's a special workstation (ex: the adamantine forge), and special ingredients (ex: adamantine ore), and I think maybe they all have something like blueprints to allow you to choose which of a few items you'll get (ex: a sword, a mace, a shield, etc). You slot everything into its proper place and voila, you get the thing.
The adamantine forge has a bunch of quest pointers, so you'll probably find it. But the others are just... Around. I haven't found that many. I skipped over some, not understanding what they were.
Baldur's Gate 3 has a crafting system. And it's D&D. They really could find a way to just... Take it. It works pretty well.
BG3 for crafting consumables is "go around being a scavenger for raw parts". Notably, BG3 is very very generous with consumables. There's also nothing terribly engaging about it, it's just about being a vacuum cleaner as you play.
BG3 for crafting anything else is "finish this quest to get an item, or a choice of a small number of items. By the way, it's not repeatable". There's nothing wrong with crafting quests, but "Okay, you've made an X. You can never try again, and all the other items on the menu are forever unavailable" is unlikely to fulfill the desires of people who want crafting.
If we want other D&D games with crafting
I don't think games before Neverwinter Nights had crafting.
Neverwinter Nights (bioware version) had some rare components (most spawned only a couple times per game) that could be used for crafting. It apparently wasn't very successful because the first expansion had a completely different (also component-based) system and the second expansion had yet another completely different (and this time gold-based) system. The third expansion also had an (almost completely useless) crafting system.
Neverwinter Night 2 used a system with essences to upgrade items. The system was revamped in the first expansion pack, but was at least recognizable, unlike NWN 1. It's probably the system that would come closest to something people who want crafting would like. (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/pc/922154-neverwinter-nights-2/faqs/45560)
Neverwinter Nights (MMO) probably has some sort of crafting, but knowing the studio it's probably pay-to-win.
Solasta uses a system of where a non-consumable magic item requires a recipe, a basic blank item, and a rare component. The rare components were very low availability in the original game; expansions put them in stores but there wasn't much point, because you could usually buy the same item direct for not substantially more money. Consumable magic items are a big factor in character power, though, particularly crafting poisoned arrows and bolts.
This is exactly my point! The main benefit of a crafting system is to subvert the control of the DM over magical items.
Nothing subverts the control of the DM; a crafting system is just an alternative way to handle getting magic items, without either the anti-climax of the DM just giving you what you wanted, or the extra work of having to do extra quests to obtain it. Crafting is just a middle ground where you get to earn an item by making it as a downtime activity.
Still doesn't change the whole point though; there's no need for a crafting system to be overly complicated. The simpler it is, the better; as the only real requirement is that it isn't something you can just throw coin at and achieve far too early.
Baldur's Gate 3 has a crafting system. And it's D&D. They really could find a way to just... Take it. It works pretty well.
One of the problems with adapting that system is that Baldur's Gate 3 has the advantage of making things a lot easier; the alchemy system literally has a single button press to automatically extract all components from ingredients you've found, and it's a lot easier to handle picking up ingredients in a video game. In actual D&D the player would either have to remember to keep asking to harvest ingredients in the area, or the DM has to keep giving them specific ingredients or reminding them to look.
Likewise actually making the potions/poisons/etc. is made a lot easier by the UI because you don't have to remember what you can make; it just shows you what you currently have ingredients for and you can select it and press it. The same process for actual D&D would be more complicated as you'd have a big list of items you know how to make, and the components/ingredients you need, and you'd have to manually go through it and compare with what you have, it'd be far more laborious.
Meanwhile the item crafting is very limited; you can only make a handful of specific items with the Grymforge, Sussur forge etc., expanding that out to cover more items would make it far more complicated and tedious to do in practice. It's best suited to a DM who wants to offer only a choice of a few items as a mini-quest, rather than a general system.
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I've seen people talking about adding crafting drops to loot tables, but... i'd just find out what the PC wants to build, and then try to introduce the things he needs for that narratively.
You want to make healing potions? You're in a forest, look for herbs. Roll a dice you find some. (or you don't, or you find poison) You want to make a flametongue sword? You need something fire-aspected. Next time you fight a salamander or a fire elemental or whatever, remember that you need something fire-themed and try to harvest the corpse. You want to make leather boots? Hunt something with hide.
Basically, instead of having the players open a chest and me telling them that they randomly found iron nails, dragonhide, fir planks and some assorted alchemy ingredients, I'd just have them write down what they want to make, rule that they can buy 90% of the stuff they need at the local town and see if I can throw a monster at them that will provide the last 10%.
If the players want to harvest herbs to make healing potions, just have them do it automatically while traveling, but they move at half speed while doing it. Then tell them how much stuff they found when they reach their destination.
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
crafting is fun to certain people, for different reasons, depending on the system. There is a lot variation in design, and purpose.
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
Videogame crafting systems are fundamentally tied to exploration-focused visual videogames where looking around at stuff is the reward of the game. So looking for crafting ingredients encourages players to explore which they are rewarded for doing by discovering secrets, spectacular views, or hidden stashes of goodies. Whereas in narrative-focused games crafting is generally minimal / unenjoyable.
Basically, instead of having the players open a chest and me telling them that they randomly found iron nails, dragonhide, fir planks and some assorted alchemy ingredients, I'd just have them write down what they want to make, rule that they can buy 90% of the stuff they need at the local town and see if I can throw a monster at them that will provide the last 10%.
Okay, but a few rules on that wouldn't hurt, right? Right now, you have no guidance on those prices, and materials only exist after people start asking for them, which doesn't make any sense really. Plus there's some metagaming that might feel icky to some, where you suddenly start encountering fire elementals (or you specifically never do) after saying you're trying to make a Flame Tongue sword. Ideally the necessary materials would be attached to monsters it made sense to be able to intentionally go out and hunt - or summon, in the case of elementals, perhaps. (Currently, summoned creatures cease to exist on death or after their spell ends, so that's not possible, but we're talking changes.) So, that would necessitate a rule to ensure that DMs know where such creatures slot into their setting, or how to alter the crafting system when they don't include them...
I think people don't realize sometimes, just how much work they're doing as the DM to fix the game. It shouldn't require an excellent DM to have the game be excellent. The ideal scenario that rules designers are shooting for is, mediocre or even outright bad DMs still being able to run great games. After all, they call this The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game.
Okay, but a few rules on that wouldn't hurt, right? Right now, you have no guidance on those prices, and materials only exist after people start asking for them, which doesn't make any sense really.
The obvious fix is to have materials be gems and jewelry, because those are already in the random loot tables.
Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
Videogame crafting systems are fundamentally tied to exploration-focused visual videogames where looking around at stuff is the reward of the game. So looking for crafting ingredients encourages players to explore which they are rewarded for doing by discovering secrets, spectacular views, or hidden stashes of goodies. Whereas in narrative-focused games crafting is generally minimal / unenjoyable.
ehh, dnd is actually at its core a very exploration focused game. It should also theoretically be a useful reward for exploration in dnd. I think the problem is, not every player cares, and its a lot more effort, and the DM is already juggling a lot. A adventuring survival focused campaign, like old dnd would do well to have that type of crafting. 5e kinda didnt really focus on that type of stuff though the pieces are still there. And it is pretty successful, so can't really say its worse for it.
Basically, instead of having the players open a chest and me telling them that they randomly found iron nails, dragonhide, fir planks and some assorted alchemy ingredients, I'd just have them write down what they want to make, rule that they can buy 90% of the stuff they need at the local town and see if I can throw a monster at them that will provide the last 10%.
Okay, but a few rules on that wouldn't hurt, right? Right now, you have no guidance on those prices, and materials only exist after people start asking for them, which doesn't make any sense really. Plus there's some metagaming that might feel icky to some, where you suddenly start encountering fire elementals (or you specifically never do) after saying you're trying to make a Flame Tongue sword. Ideally the necessary materials would be attached to monsters it made sense to be able to intentionally go out and hunt - or summon, in the case of elementals, perhaps. (Currently, summoned creatures cease to exist on death or after their spell ends, so that's not possible, but we're talking changes.) So, that would necessitate a rule to ensure that DMs know where such creatures slot into their setting, or how to alter the crafting system when they don't include them...
I think people don't realize sometimes, just how much work they're doing as the DM to fix the game. It shouldn't require an excellent DM to have the game be excellent. The ideal scenario that rules designers are shooting for is, mediocre or even outright bad DMs still being able to run great games. After all, they call this The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game.
Its definitely a lot of work being a great DM for 5e. Partially because the rules are very detailed, so its not as simple as creating an idea, you also have to get a lot of rules right.
that said
an average DM is fine at the game, IE someone who knows the general rules, and plays a module. Many of these extra things we are talking about are good add ons if your players are into that type of thing. Its actually a strength of most ttrpgs that it isnt extremely detailed, and if the GM can easily modify it. The DM and players customizing these things is a strength of the game. Adding too many rules, especially explicit ones limits this. Especially for average and new DMs who don't realize a really good DM ignores rules and alters the game to create the best experiences. Many of the rules are just training wheels, or a fall back for being a good DM.
There are two types of approach to rpgs, simulation focused, where you have a lot of rules to represent a world system, and you just apply them as needed, and narrative focused, where the rules exist primarily to allow people a framework to improvise. Most systems are some mix between the two.
the thing is, going heavily into simulation style makes it very hard to prepare and adapt to the needs of the game in the moment, and the best simulation rpgs will be videogames/VTTs because they can offload a lot of the book keeping, calculations, and build the rules into the system.
The OTHER thing, Gwar, is that not everybody vibes on the loosey-goosey, no-rules, make-it-up-as-you-go style, where nothing is consistent, chaos is the only constant, and you never have the faintest foggiest idea what your character is and is not capable of. Knowing what you can do, what you can't do, and what you might be able to do if you roll well is a critical foundation of making effective decisions in a game, and the fewer hard rules there are the less you get to know those things. A certain degree of improvisational flex is excellent and a necessity for the game - but so is a skeleton firm enough to allow players to improvise with confidence.
In essence, Dungeons and Dragons is best as cartilage.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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How about we just make a whole new crafting system that does not involve the current magic items, something more in the lines of you can ONLY create the items we place in this list with this specific effects and here is a system for what is needed for it. ex. get this magic stone and merge it in your sword and now it got x element to it same with armor, just use a specific set of items that can be infused into your weapons armor or trinkets, that way u don't have to make super long system for all the items currently available and you can control better.
The artificer Infusion table is a solid list of craft able items that PC can work in a timely manner without adding anything too powerful and keeping control on rarity since Legendary items are that Legendary, so hard to find. This also give validity to the Artificers in the world as they are the ones who actually produce this basic items with easy for the population.
Ex. to make Sword of flames = Tool proficiency (blacksmithing) + weapon/metal + magic components + key element for a creature type that have fire attacks. This also give more usefulness to tool proficiency.
This would make it easier to DM since metal or a regular weapon can be found anywhere, the magic component its something u can get in a magic shop and the key element is painting a target on a creature they probably gotta kill anyway. They can also make it that each component got a type that affect the quality of the Magic item.
There the basis of a crafting system already using everything already in the game.
Ex. to make Sword of flames = Tool proficiency (blacksmithing) + weapon/metal + magic components + key element for a creature type that have fire attacks. This also give more usefulness to tool proficiency.
You basically just described the system in xanathar's.
The OTHER thing, Gwar, is that not everybody vibes on the loosey-goosey, no-rules, make-it-up-as-you-go style, where nothing is consistent, chaos is the only constant, and you never have the faintest foggiest idea what your character is and is not capable of. Knowing what you can do, what you can't do, and what you might be able to do if you roll well is a critical foundation of making effective decisions in a game, and the fewer hard rules there are the less you get to know those things. A certain degree of improvisational flex is excellent and a necessity for the game - but so is a skeleton firm enough to allow players to improvise with confidence.
Not wanting to derail, but curious if you (Yurei) know anything about how Gygax ran his D&D (and other RPG) table. Because what you describe is EXACTLY how he ran it (he consistently poo-pooed consistency!).
To be very clear: I'm mentioning this as an aside, NOT IN ANY WAY as some kind of argument for/defense of make-it-up-as-you-go approaches. That style would give me apoplexy.
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Yeah, it is. BOTW caused the most recent huge spike and while the peak has abated, there's still a large degree of unsatisfied interest out there -- enough to generate significant press specific to D&D and then to RPGs in general. It hits Video games, as well, of course, which is different, but the desire for it is still real.
While I don't monitor YouTube stuff (because, well, I have negative thoughts regarding youtube anything, so my bias keeps me away), there is enough there as well that it is an issue.
So it is popular right now, and I don't disagree with the boring aspect of actual play, it is also a thing that many are interested in seeing more of and more support for in the base game. Hell, there's even a steadily growing assortment of "I wanna play a merchant" type stuff out there. It's been out there since at least the 90's, and some games did enable it, but they want to do it D&D, and so over what, 25 years they've been growing.
The crafting system I did for my folks is not even close to as complicated as some I've seen -- yet here I am having to revisit it 8 years later to work it into Bastions (which are a go for my folks), and I still don't plan to make it more than "you got the stuff, make a roll, ok done". it is a downtime activity for my games.
And the blk of the issues lie in the "uptime" and "the stuff" parts -- some folks want to make their characters all some sort of artificers doing stuff in a dungeon on the run, I guess, while others want the whole "recipe for success" thing.
Neither of which appeals to me personally -- but that doesn't mean they aren't possibly popular enough, since 5e is built pretty much on the whole basis of what is the popular choice.
So, we will either see it in the books or we won't. My interest is in how they do it. I want to see them make it stuff that is possible from a player's standpoint, you stated you disagree.
That's fine. I can't speak to what's more popular between those two positions -- I've never attempted to look into it.
But given the popularity, I do think we will get at least some idea, and that it likely will be a part of a UA.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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Unless they contract someone to do it for them.
If I introduce a spell that the BBEG can do and my players can't, I have a half dozen players crawling up my hind end wanting to find, create, duplicate, use that spell, lol.
I will totally admit that part of that is my fault -- I encourage them to create their own spells, and they have to find or buy or something to get any (I give out spells as treasure).
So that kind of thought isn't always applicable -- and some fighters *can* use magic, , so even then that thinking kind of glosses over a few things.
I didn't mention classes because I wasn't thinking in terms of classes -- I was thinking in terms of what players can access to create these things as a party.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It's worth looking at video games because there are so many more of them than RPGs. There are a ton of crafting systems out there, but can you think of any that are actually fun?
LOL, well, I am a bad choice. Apparently BOTW players love that crafting system and find it fun.
I don't do video games in general (I play only one, and its crafting style is fetch quests to upgrade gear), and I don't mind it at all, myself, but I wouldn't want to do it in D&D.
So really, I can't answer that question, as an individual. Fun is very subjective, as well -- and given the popularity of many games, and those same articles on the topic, I would say the one folks find most fun is something like BOTW (which is way more complex).
As I am a DM, I want something that allows me greater narrative possibility and that can be used for storyline development, and as long as it then makes my players happy, I'm pretty open unless it has huge overhead.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Not that I think it is particularly useful, but Minecraft has been about the most popular video game in existence for quite a while. One of its major aspects is crafting, so I assume that must be considered fun for the multitudes of people playing it. I don't necessarily think that its system would translate well into a TTRPG, though.
Baldur's Gate 3 has a crafting system. And it's D&D. They really could find a way to just... Take it. It works pretty well.
Actually it has several crafting systems. There's the main one, wherein you pick up little scraps of stuff all over the place and combine them together in your inventory based on recipes that automatically reveal themselves when you pick up the related ingredient. But then there are some secret ones.
One of the choosable backgrounds is Guild Artisan. I don't think any of the "origin characters" have it, so you'll only get it if you make your own character. The backgrounds give you inspiration at certain checkpoints based on the things you do. (Ex: Acolytes get inspiration when you enter a certain secret temple.) Guild Artisans get inspiration when you use a secret crafting system!
They all pretty much work the same way. There's a special workstation (ex: the adamantine forge), and special ingredients (ex: adamantine ore), and I think maybe they all have something like blueprints to allow you to choose which of a few items you'll get (ex: a sword, a mace, a shield, etc). You slot everything into its proper place and voila, you get the thing.
The adamantine forge has a bunch of quest pointers, so you'll probably find it. But the others are just... Around. I haven't found that many. I skipped over some, not understanding what they were.
BG3 for crafting consumables is "go around being a scavenger for raw parts". Notably, BG3 is very very generous with consumables. There's also nothing terribly engaging about it, it's just about being a vacuum cleaner as you play.
BG3 for crafting anything else is "finish this quest to get an item, or a choice of a small number of items. By the way, it's not repeatable". There's nothing wrong with crafting quests, but "Okay, you've made an X. You can never try again, and all the other items on the menu are forever unavailable" is unlikely to fulfill the desires of people who want crafting.
If we want other D&D games with crafting
Nothing subverts the control of the DM; a crafting system is just an alternative way to handle getting magic items, without either the anti-climax of the DM just giving you what you wanted, or the extra work of having to do extra quests to obtain it. Crafting is just a middle ground where you get to earn an item by making it as a downtime activity.
Still doesn't change the whole point though; there's no need for a crafting system to be overly complicated. The simpler it is, the better; as the only real requirement is that it isn't something you can just throw coin at and achieve far too early.
One of the problems with adapting that system is that Baldur's Gate 3 has the advantage of making things a lot easier; the alchemy system literally has a single button press to automatically extract all components from ingredients you've found, and it's a lot easier to handle picking up ingredients in a video game. In actual D&D the player would either have to remember to keep asking to harvest ingredients in the area, or the DM has to keep giving them specific ingredients or reminding them to look.
Likewise actually making the potions/poisons/etc. is made a lot easier by the UI because you don't have to remember what you can make; it just shows you what you currently have ingredients for and you can select it and press it. The same process for actual D&D would be more complicated as you'd have a big list of items you know how to make, and the components/ingredients you need, and you'd have to manually go through it and compare with what you have, it'd be far more laborious.
Meanwhile the item crafting is very limited; you can only make a handful of specific items with the Grymforge, Sussur forge etc., expanding that out to cover more items would make it far more complicated and tedious to do in practice. It's best suited to a DM who wants to offer only a choice of a few items as a mini-quest, rather than a general system.
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I've seen people talking about adding crafting drops to loot tables, but... i'd just find out what the PC wants to build, and then try to introduce the things he needs for that narratively.
You want to make healing potions? You're in a forest, look for herbs. Roll a dice you find some. (or you don't, or you find poison)
You want to make a flametongue sword? You need something fire-aspected. Next time you fight a salamander or a fire elemental or whatever, remember that you need something fire-themed and try to harvest the corpse. You want to make leather boots? Hunt something with hide.
Basically, instead of having the players open a chest and me telling them that they randomly found iron nails, dragonhide, fir planks and some assorted alchemy ingredients, I'd just have them write down what they want to make, rule that they can buy 90% of the stuff they need at the local town and see if I can throw a monster at them that will provide the last 10%.
If the players want to harvest herbs to make healing potions, just have them do it automatically while traveling, but they move at half speed while doing it. Then tell them how much stuff they found when they reach their destination.
crafting is fun to certain people, for different reasons, depending on the system. There is a lot variation in design, and purpose.
Videogame crafting systems are fundamentally tied to exploration-focused visual videogames where looking around at stuff is the reward of the game. So looking for crafting ingredients encourages players to explore which they are rewarded for doing by discovering secrets, spectacular views, or hidden stashes of goodies. Whereas in narrative-focused games crafting is generally minimal / unenjoyable.
Okay, but a few rules on that wouldn't hurt, right? Right now, you have no guidance on those prices, and materials only exist after people start asking for them, which doesn't make any sense really. Plus there's some metagaming that might feel icky to some, where you suddenly start encountering fire elementals (or you specifically never do) after saying you're trying to make a Flame Tongue sword. Ideally the necessary materials would be attached to monsters it made sense to be able to intentionally go out and hunt - or summon, in the case of elementals, perhaps. (Currently, summoned creatures cease to exist on death or after their spell ends, so that's not possible, but we're talking changes.) So, that would necessitate a rule to ensure that DMs know where such creatures slot into their setting, or how to alter the crafting system when they don't include them...
I think people don't realize sometimes, just how much work they're doing as the DM to fix the game. It shouldn't require an excellent DM to have the game be excellent. The ideal scenario that rules designers are shooting for is, mediocre or even outright bad DMs still being able to run great games. After all, they call this The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game.
The obvious fix is to have materials be gems and jewelry, because those are already in the random loot tables.
ehh, dnd is actually at its core a very exploration focused game. It should also theoretically be a useful reward for exploration in dnd. I think the problem is, not every player cares, and its a lot more effort, and the DM is already juggling a lot. A adventuring survival focused campaign, like old dnd would do well to have that type of crafting. 5e kinda didnt really focus on that type of stuff though the pieces are still there. And it is pretty successful, so can't really say its worse for it.
Its definitely a lot of work being a great DM for 5e. Partially because the rules are very detailed, so its not as simple as creating an idea, you also have to get a lot of rules right.
that said
an average DM is fine at the game, IE someone who knows the general rules, and plays a module. Many of these extra things we are talking about are good add ons if your players are into that type of thing. Its actually a strength of most ttrpgs that it isnt extremely detailed, and if the GM can easily modify it. The DM and players customizing these things is a strength of the game. Adding too many rules, especially explicit ones limits this. Especially for average and new DMs who don't realize a really good DM ignores rules and alters the game to create the best experiences. Many of the rules are just training wheels, or a fall back for being a good DM.
There are two types of approach to rpgs, simulation focused, where you have a lot of rules to represent a world system, and you just apply them as needed, and narrative focused, where the rules exist primarily to allow people a framework to improvise. Most systems are some mix between the two.
the thing is, going heavily into simulation style makes it very hard to prepare and adapt to the needs of the game in the moment, and the best simulation rpgs will be videogames/VTTs because they can offload a lot of the book keeping, calculations, and build the rules into the system.
The OTHER thing, Gwar, is that not everybody vibes on the loosey-goosey, no-rules, make-it-up-as-you-go style, where nothing is consistent, chaos is the only constant, and you never have the faintest foggiest idea what your character is and is not capable of. Knowing what you can do, what you can't do, and what you might be able to do if you roll well is a critical foundation of making effective decisions in a game, and the fewer hard rules there are the less you get to know those things. A certain degree of improvisational flex is excellent and a necessity for the game - but so is a skeleton firm enough to allow players to improvise with confidence.
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How about we just make a whole new crafting system that does not involve the current magic items, something more in the lines of you can ONLY create the items we place in this list with this specific effects and here is a system for what is needed for it. ex. get this magic stone and merge it in your sword and now it got x element to it same with armor, just use a specific set of items that can be infused into your weapons armor or trinkets, that way u don't have to make super long system for all the items currently available and you can control better.
The artificer Infusion table is a solid list of craft able items that PC can work in a timely manner without adding anything too powerful and keeping control on rarity since Legendary items are that Legendary, so hard to find. This also give validity to the Artificers in the world as they are the ones who actually produce this basic items with easy for the population.
Ex. to make Sword of flames = Tool proficiency (blacksmithing) + weapon/metal + magic components + key element for a creature type that have fire attacks. This also give more usefulness to tool proficiency.
This would make it easier to DM since metal or a regular weapon can be found anywhere, the magic component its something u can get in a magic shop and the key element is painting a target on a creature they probably gotta kill anyway. They can also make it that each component got a type that affect the quality of the Magic item.
There the basis of a crafting system already using everything already in the game.
You basically just described the system in xanathar's.
Not wanting to derail, but curious if you (Yurei) know anything about how Gygax ran his D&D (and other RPG) table. Because what you describe is EXACTLY how he ran it (he consistently poo-pooed consistency!).
To be very clear: I'm mentioning this as an aside, NOT IN ANY WAY as some kind of argument for/defense of make-it-up-as-you-go approaches. That style would give me apoplexy.