What players want is for their characters to be self-sufficient.
This IMO is the big problem with today's players. D&D is a social game, the whole point is that characters are not self-sufficient, otherwise why do you need a DM and other players at the table? In a single-player game it is totally fine for the player to be totally self-sufficient and not need to interact with NPCs and just do whatever they want. But in a multiplayer-cooperative game, it sucks.
Tell that to whoever came up with the Ranger and Monk classes. And Barbarian. And arguably Sorcerer. Self-sufficiency has been a core fantasy of the game for a long time now.
Sorry what? A Barbarian is useless against a flying foe, a Sorcerer is useless against those devils and demons with magic resistance without a strong boi to take the hits for them. A Monk isn't useless, but it is decidly mediocre against both flying creatures and beef cake enemies.
I think its fine to have downtime activities, but players should also be able to actively pursue things, and, get things done while adventuring. I think exp should be another option for progressing certain things. The rules for crafting were kind of crazy to me, the time in workweeks was far beyond the time to level.
The time requirements for crafting are totally reasonable from a worldbuilding perspective. They're just ... not useful to most PCs.
everything is reasonable from a world building perspective, if you define it as what ever I say in lore makes sense.
it doesn't really make sense in terms of game design, consistency, or much else really.
20 days to create an uncommon item, why? game design wise thats super slow, lore wise, people can cast simulacrum and create a whole new magical person that lasts forever in 12 hours, yet for some reason it would take this guy 200 days of 8 hour work to make a dagger that does fire+piercing damage? It makes no real sense.
it makes sense from a standpoint of, we want it to take 200 days to make a rare item so people don't engage with this mechanic in normal games, and people wanting to profit in downtime are inefficient. But there were many possible solutions to the second issue, and the first is a questionable goal.
So, I am particularly big on the idea of crafting being a downtime thing. It took an effort for me to acknowledge that folks can crochet, do needlework, and knit in a dungeon, lol. But I want to point something out about that effort -- it was a player effort and it was mostly about me being willing to let them make socks while traveling and exploring.
Yes, that was the literal example that won me over, lol. I tend to approach things from a "real word" and then add fantasy to them. Iwas sort hung upon the whole "in the dungeon thing", and I was wrong to be so.
So, a mail shirt might take 500 hours to make. That's not the fantasy, that's the reality, It is shocking how easily one can google stuff, y'know?
That's a fairly standard "middle ages" baseline -- for mail. It also requires a workshop, and includes fitting and other factors, so for the "fantasy" part, I'd cut it down to probably 250 hours. TO people who make chain mail, that is easily the most unrealistic thing they could think of. So, fantasy part met.
Note that I describe Hours, as well. I don't deal in days, myself, I deal in hours.
Most standard portraiture done during that era took about 180 hours.
making a cask to age wine or bourbon in could take as much time as a chain shirt. You start to dig into things, and suddenly the notion of 200 hours for something seems, well, really gentle -- and these are non-magical items. Even if you can move away from the requirements for a workshop, the crafting of a dagger back then took far, far longer than it does today, where someone can use modern tools and technology (starting with a hearth and the ready presence of ingots) to make a knife in about six hours -- for them, it was a lot more time. Like 100 hours, easy.
because of the 8 hours a day rule, that means you can apply fatigue to time over 8 spent -- which shorten the number of day -- or you can have someone help and reduce that time (if done in shifts or combined), and so forth.
Again, this is before magical item stuff comes around.
I see magical item stuff as being the second stage in the creation of something -- they have to make an ordinary thing before they make a magical form of it. So the magical part might take less time -- I mean, generally, magic is pretty quick. So, if the "normal" phase of the item includes rare or unusual ingredients, it could easily take more time since they aren't part of the normal process.
THen comes the enchanting or imbuing or whatever, and that's a process as well.
So even then, most of the items that folks want to make during an adventure are still going to require downtime -- assuming that one tries to follow a realistic set up.
On the other hand, one can also go the videogame route -- "sure, you go the stuff? you got the tools? Go for it, make your roll."
That's going to be a hard sell to a lot of DMs and even more players. Enough to block it from reaching the 80% popularity point? I think so. Whereas I don't think that would be the case for a system that comes even marginally close to "reality".
I could be wrong -- as I noted, the PF system is popular among its folks.
on the other hand, the party now has less penalty as they tread into cold weather because when they were still in warmer lands, player A picked up a few skeins of yarn and started knitting and player b did the same and now the whole party has cold weather clothes.
how many hours of crafting time is that?
THe big challenge is always going to be the "i want to make it now, in the dungeon" crowd -- and ime, that isn't going to fly, because while carving a pretty basic, boring stick into a wand might not take a long time, the lore of the game world may add or require special materials, or intricate detailing, and all of that adds to the complexity of creating it.
what time period do you think dnd is representing?, making a dagger doesnt take 100 hours. In midevil times making a sword took a week, not working that hard, maybe 30 hours. Also this is world with magic, there should be some things that are relatively easier to achieve through magic. I can't speak to crafting armor, but in game it costs way more to make full plate, so it might not surprise me that it takes longer. As an artist, the 180 hours on a portrait thing, highly depends on the skill of the artist, and maybe the medium.180 is on the high side though.
However, I wouldn't assume the time consuming part of crafting is the magic side. Or that everyone crafting something is starting from scratch. Magic generally appears to take a lot less time than doing mundane things, and is more about skill than time. Its probable that someone might buy or repurpose basic mundane parts of magic items rather making them. The problem with using time as a basis, as you pointed out, its not really time that actually decides how common something is. Making a gold ring is a lot less time consuming than making a sword. There are relatively common things that take a long amount of hours, and relatively rare things that take less. Some things are rare due to requiring people of high skill, or because of the resources, or number of people. From a creating things point, designing or coming up with something new, or more pretty, can be the most difficult part.
As far as crafting in a dungeon, that probably depends what you are doing, and how you are doing it. I imagine a dude with a Magnificent mansion of forging wouldn't have much trouble. Likewise, a guy with heat metal can make red hot metal instantly instead of having to heat up a forge and all the inefficiencies that brings. Person with a bag of holding can have the best tools available instantly.
But a 5e level crafting system doesnt need to be realistic first and foremost, it mostly needs to meet the needs of players and be fun. And probably needs to fit the fiction of the world enough not to break the avg immersion.
I can grant that a sword takes 60 hours to make using a medieval sword, assuming that is the only thing a single blacksmith is working on in a given week. I would hope that said blacksmith has several apprentices of differing capabilities working for them so that their shop could still stay open, working on other things.
On the portraiture -- that's a literal average of the amount of time most sittings took. It wasn't merely a factor of an artist sitting down and painting start to finish, it was an aspect of time for the modes to sit, time to get the right lighting, and of course, the all important you will get this right or you won't be paid for it" factor. Since broad wealth of merchants wasn't a common feature enabling strong patronage outside of major trading hubs until into the 1400s, portraiture was often limited to the nobility and in folklore Nobility had a propensity to lop off heads of artists who displeased them.
Yo asked what time period: the time period is generally thought to be 600 through 1400, in terms of Europe. I go off on tangents about this, so will try hard to avoid talking about it (pseudo-Greco-Roman/Dark/Early Middle/Late Middle/Renaissance/Victorian/Edwardian with elements of Middle period Egypt, Abbasid (6th C), and other such, primarily pre through late stage silk road).
The pair of us agree on the magic part not generally taking near as long -- my general take slots in alongside your "creating new or more pretty" part, as the introduction of non-standard materials (the heart of a gryphon) tends to create challenges in the fabrication process of the core item.
I will say that given there is no magical forge creation spell (The Mag Mansion doesn't create a forge, and even if it did, anything removed from it would vanish once you step outside it or the spell ends), that heat metal doesn't remove the need to have a hammer, anvil, quenching, honig, and carving stuff. I do grant that a bag of holding could hold those things (though that Anvil is going to be a pain -- those plain simple blocks were usually only about 20kg flat topped hunks, but the non-moving base was what was really important, and you can't get that in a dungeon).
But this, of course, is all presuming that we are dealing with Smithing -- which is not the only skill or craft possible. Of course, we are also skipping over the big part about this. In the time period in general use, iron had to be alloyed -- or made into steel. Making steel in a standard furnace was the blacksmith's job -- they had to take the time to do it, which was generally a couple days, because they had to get to the high temperatures and keep it there -- a kg of steel could take two days to make, and that's before it was molded into a bar. A simple iron sword was quick, comparatively, to the finer, more in demand steel.
And yeah, in those days most blacksmiths didn't make swords -- you had to be someone who was taught in a special place to do so by someone who had an arrangement with a noble or other patron who could afford the raw ores, and usually you worked as part of a larger smithy under the aegis there. We are dealing with a higher level of demand than they did and of course the essential fantasy aspect of "well, go see a blacksmith for a sword".
(this also raises the question of why an adventurer would need to forge a sword in a dungeon. I mean, default rules don't have weapons break all that much, and it is entirely possible for a sword they start with at 1st level to be the sword then end with at 20th level, lol)
All of which really shows that the use of smithing as an example is really a bad one for this purpose -- while one can try to twist and invet and sort of kludge one's way into "ok, yeah, maybe", it really is a lot of work to justify something that is generally going to be a downtime activity overall.
Other crafts, well, they are different.
Handiwork -- the crochet, embroidery, needlepoint, lace making, knitting kind of stuff is absolutely a craft that can be done in dungeons -- and, much to the surprise of many, was something that sold far more highly than many blacksmith's good. I'd even argue it could be done during rest periods. A pair of trousers in that time period could cost more than a sword (mostly because they didn't wear trousers -- they wore woven or knitted leggings).
The weaving arts -- rug making, cloth weaving, spinning, carding -- are a little different. One could card easily, and I suppose a spinning wheel could be dropping a bag of holding. Some of the small looms that were used could be done (nothing big, mind you, talking about a meter wide and maybe a meter and a half high), i suppose.
Instrument making could be done is bits and pieces. But that is also a much more involved process, specially once you get into lamination.
Some of the clothing crafts would work -- glove making, cobbling, hat making. Plain old tailoring/seamstry requires a good amount of light.
Not going to be much chandlery or ink making, no enameling or tanning going on. So, just sitting down to really think about it, when folks talk about Crafting they really don't mean actually using crafts.
They may mean smithing -- black, silver, gold, white, copper, farrying --but no, what they really mean is "magically taking things they find and turning them into something else".
Now, I say that because I have a list of around 200 actual crafts and skills and such that were common to the period. And my Adventures can take a few months to resolve in-game time. But my understanding is that most adventures for most other people take place over a period of days -- often fewer than 15. Where downtime is filled in with camping and cooking and bedding down for the night -- but also apparently no one does random wilderness encounters at 3 am, depriving them of a long rest, etc.
I never hear about people hauling their wagons up to a dungeon entrance, making them ready to haul away heaps of treasure, carrying their adventuring supplies like water and food stuff and cooking gear (because the usual travel pot is about enough for 1, after two hours of cooking). Setting a guard on the goods as they dive in, hauling stuff back through the dungeon to get it to the carts.
My group plays all of that. because things happen, and there is a reason player's are generally expected to make their own maps (something VTT is killing) and they do forget wherethose traps they got past were.
but we also do see the entire thing as being like a book, not a movie or video game. All of that is part of the story of the characters. It does go a lot faster, don't get me wrong ("We're leaving." Seven minutes later in real time they've done five hours in-game of work getting out of what took them fifteen days in-game and six months of session time getting into).
Crafting to make money? Yeah, possible -- but most actal crafts took multiples of actual hours longer then than they do today. To buy a bolt of cloth -- we'll say simple muslin, not even high grade -- would have cost as much as a typical village merchant earned in 3 months, at the minimum. Those bolts might be enough to make 1 tunic.
There is a degree of fantasy involved -- no question, but how you apply that fantasy is one thing. "I can make a bolt of cloth with magic". Well then, make a bolt of cloth with magic. Use that spell slot on fabricate. go for it.
That isn't crafting, though. That's using magic to make something. And not everyone -- not even all magic users -- can do it.
Simply put, there is no "realistic in the same sense as the rest of the game, even abstract like HP" way to do "I want to make a +3 Flametongue Battle Axe for my character in the middle of this adventure in a matter of a couple of hours."
Which is not an argument against a crafting system.
I took that list of 200 ad boiled it down to around 30 things, based on what they do and what they need to do it. That gave me about 30 crafting skills that ca be used to create things during downtime. And it means tat there are ways to create a magical weapon -- during downtime -- as part of preparation.
Potions of healing and other odds and ends, yep, they can make those too. The big thing is that even a fighter in my game can do it -- they need to do a bunch of stuff and they cannot do it alone, but they can make it happen. Are they going to make a wand of fireballs? Well, if they can get the stuff to do it, yeah -- and I'm not going to stop them, but it will take them a bit to do it in terms of in-game time, even if actual play time is only ten, fifteen minutes.
This is why I say that if what folks want is a Video Game Crafting system -- I stop in the dungeon and make a thing really fast while we are waiting -- that's going to crash and burn as far as 2024 rules go. They aren't going to create that. Such a thing would need to be a home brewed set up.
THe same way that my more involved and researched one would do the same. But what I did is closer to what the game currently has, and builds off what it already has in place.
If 80% of the players of the game decide they want a video game crafting system, then they may indeed put one in -- I'm not saying that isn't a possibility. But I don't see it as such -- most folks want that semblance of reality.
Some things here
so, if you are saying portraiture took 180 hours for reasons that have nothing to do with how long it takes to paint, then its not really relvent to crafting time. Thats more a case of working with nobles takes 140 hours. painting might take 40. I am an artist, it varies greatly from artist to artist. I'm fairly slow, but i can go to the city in my area, and see portrait artists do paintings way better than dark age artists in 30 minutes.
I went to college for mech engineering, and you apparently know mech engineers. So I know a bit about manufacturing. There is a lot you can do with a mill or a lathe, you probably aren't doing every part of any crafting process. Weavers would probably buy textiles, or reclaim it. Time breakdowns have a lot to do with economics, workflows, specific needs of the crafter. Mansion has whatever inside it you want it to have. There is no qualitative difference between a fireplace, furnishings and a workshop. A workshop just contains furniture with a different shape. The servants can do things, mend clothes and perform tasks humans could is specifically mentioned. Things taken from the mansion might disappear, but that doesnt matter. You bring materials, you shape and work the materials in the mansion. A nail I bring from bag of holding(or a plain pack) hammered in by a mansion hammer by an unseen servant would still be hammered when I leave.
But part of the issue with trying to deep dive here, is that dark ages with the world and magic 5e presents makes no real sense. Wizards go to colleges, (any person can learn magic) study for years and can manipulate the world more easily and in ways we can't duplicate with current technology. They have sending stones as a low level tech, the can mend things low level. There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development and be in the dark ages. Something as simple as a steam engine. (simple in concept, an object that creates motion with a common resource) revolutionized the world in a short time frame. There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring.(craftsmen spend 1000s of hours doing this, learning basic spells is a lesser task). It would have to be an intentional and rigorously enforced separation of knowledge.
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
Well, the issue for crafting isn't just "how long does it take that person to do it", though. The issue really is "how long does it take for that craftwork to be completed from start to finish".
As for "way better", well you do have access to premixed bases, pre stretched canvas, safe pigments from typically synthetic sources and a whole lot more stuff that is wholly and entirely a product of the technological advances since then (speaking of, did you catch the stuff about the non-ochre reds and Da Vinci's invention of one of the most popular pint formulas?), and some pretty significant training in perspective and perception that simply did not exist widely previously.
You mention the steam engine. Were you aware that they had the Steam engine in BCE? You mention mills and lathes -- but those were not only not common, they wEren't well known or used often. In short, a lot of what you are pointing out is is what feeds into your later point -- that the level of technology we should be looking at in D&D shouldn't be based in the 600 to 1400 time period (6000 BCE to 1500 AD broad).
Much of what you go into after that is the use of magic in place of technology, and that's a valid point -- it is how we get Eberron. However, note that Eberron is not as popular as FR. I, for one, wouldn't use such a world that involves "magitech" unless it was a modern day setting. And by Modern day, I don't mean steampunk, I mean 2025 or later. For a really simple reason: not everyone can use magic.
That point of yours is actually not a rule. It is a setting concept, a bit of Lore that is specific to a given world, and on my world, it fails. you see, while everyone can use magic, most people have so little that it exhausts them to try, and can only do it in a ritual circle. Say, roughly, 3 points of energy, use all your energy you pass out, and a cantrip costs 1 point. What makes a Mage different is their ability to hold that energy -- in broader terms, that they can gather enough to use a spell slot.
And everything I just noted is part of Lore, not mechanics. Which i do because you were arguing that all the worlds created to use D&D operate with magic as a technology, and most do not.
Absolutely some do. Not even arguing that. I also can't say that is isn't a slim majority -- I can argue that it is not the 80% level that the designers seek. Artificer is still not a wholly beloved class, and versions of it have been around since the mid 80's.
When you say "There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development" you are making presumptions about a lot of folks worlds -- over half of which are entirely custom worlds, because more than half of the games that are played are played on worlds that are not a creation, even a little, of any of the published D&D worlds -- and trust me, you do not want to do that. It insults all those other people, lol.
"There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring." is your opinion, and it is not a popular opinion among most D&D players (not all, merely most). Because it isn't a new opinion, and yet D&D persists with people wielding swords and we don't have repeating rifles driven by magical cartridges and we don't suborbital platforms launched by magic and ...
... do not think that I am saying those things are bad. I have helped people create such worlds, so I completely understand your point. But by the exact same basis of "it has to work this way!", there are fantasy worlds where the physics and chemistry that make a lot of these things possible do not exist -- even with magic. Indeed, because of magic. I am only one of several folks with PHDs at my table, and seriously, I twist them in knots because they keep wanting to apply real world physics to a game.
Go out and look up worldbuilding forums and sites and you will find that there is a LOT of that kind of discourse out there. We worldbuilders are very particular about that kind of thing, and I can remember a six month, 10,000 reply thread from the 90's, on the subject.After all, we are talking about magic -- and magic does not have to replace technology, and magic does not have to be technology. Sometimes, it is just magic.
The game world I have is still an Iron cored planet, but the iron isn't found within the crust -- but aluminum is, and then it is found in actual deposits of metallic ore that do not require precipitation, merely heat. THe manufacturing system is completely different. Iron is rare, and that is mostly from an extrasolar source that is no longer even remotely possible, save for a limited degree with an oort cloud that has an atypical structure.
Super useless information -- except it also provides a lot of reason why some stuff works and other things don't. Nor is my world an outlier in that -- stuff like that is very common.
Incidentally, you mention "rigorously enforced and controlled separation of knowledge" -- guess what: that was the norm between 600 AD and 1300 AD. It goes back even further -- historically, the knowledge of ways and means of creating or locating materials for creating was held tighter than trade secrets are today, and with far more serious penalties (death). Marco Polo's story is a huge example of that. Why do you think we are just now discovering and figuring out Romans built waterproof concrete, or why we still haven't figured out what greek fire was?
The part that will make you pull your hair out is that I don't disagree with you, lol. D&D needs a whole host of spells that deal with and replace technology in it, though -- and have you see them, or do you just think that they should be there, despite 5 editions where they still haven't done that?
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
On this part we are both wholly in agreement. The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
I mentioned my fellow players having assorted education -- mine is in sociology and psychology and religion (guess what I focus on in my world building Just wild guess, lol). I have a huge love of history and all that and my top five favorite books are all reference books, including one that is a timeline of global events going back over 6000 years. Technology is a section of it, and I'll tell ya, most people seriously overestimate the level of technology that was available prior to about 1600.
Painting and various pigments existed before the dark ages of Europe, and most artists didnt create all their tools. or mediums. Canvas is only one medium for painting, its not a requirement, and 5e assumes technology where you can expect to buy pens and paper and wood, and cloth. They even have a package called painters supplies. One can expect therefore an artist isnt expected to create paintings out of trees, and forage for dye pigments from nature. IE that shouldn't be a part of their crafting time.
lathes have been documented since 13th century BCE. A milling machine is just a lathe in reverse (spin the tool instead of the object) fundamentally similar to a grinding wheel.. the concept isn't hard, its basically grinding, or cutting things. The point of the steam engine in my example wasn't the mechanics, its the concept of if I can create repetitive motion via a common resource. Once you have that, you can do a lot more with simple machines like levers, screws (which are actually levers) pulleys, planes etc. Some technologies follow other technologies. And technology is at its core just replicatable knowledge with consistent use case.
Magic is technology automatically if it can intentionally create similar results. There is no difference between a cantrip and a match, in terms of technology. Also, making a fire from wood, a wheel, and a chair are technology. You can be certain the process of creating interdimensional spaces inside of a small bag would be considered technology. Even if technology is limited by the abilities of the human, its still technology. Like a bicycle. (so even if magic was limited to a small group of people it would still be tech, that society would make use of).
One level 13 wizard existing can make as many wizards as your civilization has rubies. (simulacrum makes simulacrum).
To be clear I am not talking about every possible world one can create in a ttrpg, i'm talking about the lore and framework of dnd 5e. In 5e entities can learn magic, and knowledge and experience is the primary limiter of their power. The pHb mentions lecturing at universities. So for people playing 5e and using the phb and dmg, magic is a learnable skill. To be clear society doesn't need most people to be do something to profit from them. only 5% of our population can be defined as an engineer/scientist. of that 5% only a small fraction of them actually solve new problems that impact society. Doctors are like .3% population. One high end wizard can (help) build a city that lasts 1000 years. 5e PHB postulates, wizards exist, they work based on knowledge, they have centers of knowledge and teaching, and they often work for people in power. This implies they are being utilized by societies as technology, and societies help create wizards probably for this purpose. (Lords, king, or guilds must be allowing or promoting these universities)
much of your argument is about what type of world people want to play in, and I agree, we handwave or invent reasons to create a society that fits the type of story we want to tell or play in. It doesnt matter if its probable. That matters when the people at the table want it to matter. The premise of DND is swords and sorcery, and to a large extent, the world is warped to create that setting. But my overall point is crafting exists, or doesnt exist primarily for the story and adventures people want to have, not because it doesnt make sense in the framework of 5e. 5e is a magical world of multiple planes and is extremely loose with what is possible or how things are done. (most likely intentionally) At one point they wanted crafting to be tedious, and be something people might really only engage with inbetween campaigns. or backstory, but if they decide they don't mind people engaging with it differently, they'll change those norms.
they already did this once with XGTE for the 5e universe.
I think its fine to have downtime activities, but players should also be able to actively pursue things, and, get things done while adventuring. I think exp should be another option for progressing certain things. The rules for crafting were kind of crazy to me, the time in workweeks was far beyond the time to level.
The time requirements for crafting are totally reasonable from a worldbuilding perspective. They're just ... not useful to most PCs.
everything is reasonable from a world building perspective, if you define it as what ever I say in lore makes sense.
it doesn't really make sense in terms of game design, consistency, or much else really.
20 days to create an uncommon item, why? game design wise thats super slow, lore wise, people can cast simulacrum and create a whole new magical person that lasts forever in 12 hours, yet for some reason it would take this guy 200 days of 8 hour work to make a dagger that does fire+piercing damage? It makes no real sense.
it makes sense from a standpoint of, we want it to take 200 days to make a rare item so people don't engage with this mechanic in normal games, and people wanting to profit in downtime are inefficient. But there were many possible solutions to the second issue, and the first is a questionable goal.
So, I am particularly big on the idea of crafting being a downtime thing. It took an effort for me to acknowledge that folks can crochet, do needlework, and knit in a dungeon, lol. But I want to point something out about that effort -- it was a player effort and it was mostly about me being willing to let them make socks while traveling and exploring.
Yes, that was the literal example that won me over, lol. I tend to approach things from a "real word" and then add fantasy to them. Iwas sort hung upon the whole "in the dungeon thing", and I was wrong to be so.
So, a mail shirt might take 500 hours to make. That's not the fantasy, that's the reality, It is shocking how easily one can google stuff, y'know?
That's a fairly standard "middle ages" baseline -- for mail. It also requires a workshop, and includes fitting and other factors, so for the "fantasy" part, I'd cut it down to probably 250 hours. TO people who make chain mail, that is easily the most unrealistic thing they could think of. So, fantasy part met.
Note that I describe Hours, as well. I don't deal in days, myself, I deal in hours.
Most standard portraiture done during that era took about 180 hours.
making a cask to age wine or bourbon in could take as much time as a chain shirt. You start to dig into things, and suddenly the notion of 200 hours for something seems, well, really gentle -- and these are non-magical items. Even if you can move away from the requirements for a workshop, the crafting of a dagger back then took far, far longer than it does today, where someone can use modern tools and technology (starting with a hearth and the ready presence of ingots) to make a knife in about six hours -- for them, it was a lot more time. Like 100 hours, easy.
because of the 8 hours a day rule, that means you can apply fatigue to time over 8 spent -- which shorten the number of day -- or you can have someone help and reduce that time (if done in shifts or combined), and so forth.
Again, this is before magical item stuff comes around.
I see magical item stuff as being the second stage in the creation of something -- they have to make an ordinary thing before they make a magical form of it. So the magical part might take less time -- I mean, generally, magic is pretty quick. So, if the "normal" phase of the item includes rare or unusual ingredients, it could easily take more time since they aren't part of the normal process.
THen comes the enchanting or imbuing or whatever, and that's a process as well.
So even then, most of the items that folks want to make during an adventure are still going to require downtime -- assuming that one tries to follow a realistic set up.
On the other hand, one can also go the videogame route -- "sure, you go the stuff? you got the tools? Go for it, make your roll."
That's going to be a hard sell to a lot of DMs and even more players. Enough to block it from reaching the 80% popularity point? I think so. Whereas I don't think that would be the case for a system that comes even marginally close to "reality".
I could be wrong -- as I noted, the PF system is popular among its folks.
on the other hand, the party now has less penalty as they tread into cold weather because when they were still in warmer lands, player A picked up a few skeins of yarn and started knitting and player b did the same and now the whole party has cold weather clothes.
how many hours of crafting time is that?
THe big challenge is always going to be the "i want to make it now, in the dungeon" crowd -- and ime, that isn't going to fly, because while carving a pretty basic, boring stick into a wand might not take a long time, the lore of the game world may add or require special materials, or intricate detailing, and all of that adds to the complexity of creating it.
what time period do you think dnd is representing?, making a dagger doesnt take 100 hours. In midevil times making a sword took a week, not working that hard, maybe 30 hours. Also this is world with magic, there should be some things that are relatively easier to achieve through magic. I can't speak to crafting armor, but in game it costs way more to make full plate, so it might not surprise me that it takes longer. As an artist, the 180 hours on a portrait thing, highly depends on the skill of the artist, and maybe the medium.180 is on the high side though.
However, I wouldn't assume the time consuming part of crafting is the magic side. Or that everyone crafting something is starting from scratch. Magic generally appears to take a lot less time than doing mundane things, and is more about skill than time. Its probable that someone might buy or repurpose basic mundane parts of magic items rather making them. The problem with using time as a basis, as you pointed out, its not really time that actually decides how common something is. Making a gold ring is a lot less time consuming than making a sword. There are relatively common things that take a long amount of hours, and relatively rare things that take less. Some things are rare due to requiring people of high skill, or because of the resources, or number of people. From a creating things point, designing or coming up with something new, or more pretty, can be the most difficult part.
As far as crafting in a dungeon, that probably depends what you are doing, and how you are doing it. I imagine a dude with a Magnificent mansion of forging wouldn't have much trouble. Likewise, a guy with heat metal can make red hot metal instantly instead of having to heat up a forge and all the inefficiencies that brings. Person with a bag of holding can have the best tools available instantly.
But a 5e level crafting system doesnt need to be realistic first and foremost, it mostly needs to meet the needs of players and be fun. And probably needs to fit the fiction of the world enough not to break the avg immersion.
I can grant that a sword takes 60 hours to make using a medieval sword, assuming that is the only thing a single blacksmith is working on in a given week. I would hope that said blacksmith has several apprentices of differing capabilities working for them so that their shop could still stay open, working on other things.
On the portraiture -- that's a literal average of the amount of time most sittings took. It wasn't merely a factor of an artist sitting down and painting start to finish, it was an aspect of time for the modes to sit, time to get the right lighting, and of course, the all important you will get this right or you won't be paid for it" factor. Since broad wealth of merchants wasn't a common feature enabling strong patronage outside of major trading hubs until into the 1400s, portraiture was often limited to the nobility and in folklore Nobility had a propensity to lop off heads of artists who displeased them.
Yo asked what time period: the time period is generally thought to be 600 through 1400, in terms of Europe. I go off on tangents about this, so will try hard to avoid talking about it (pseudo-Greco-Roman/Dark/Early Middle/Late Middle/Renaissance/Victorian/Edwardian with elements of Middle period Egypt, Abbasid (6th C), and other such, primarily pre through late stage silk road).
The pair of us agree on the magic part not generally taking near as long -- my general take slots in alongside your "creating new or more pretty" part, as the introduction of non-standard materials (the heart of a gryphon) tends to create challenges in the fabrication process of the core item.
I will say that given there is no magical forge creation spell (The Mag Mansion doesn't create a forge, and even if it did, anything removed from it would vanish once you step outside it or the spell ends), that heat metal doesn't remove the need to have a hammer, anvil, quenching, honig, and carving stuff. I do grant that a bag of holding could hold those things (though that Anvil is going to be a pain -- those plain simple blocks were usually only about 20kg flat topped hunks, but the non-moving base was what was really important, and you can't get that in a dungeon).
But this, of course, is all presuming that we are dealing with Smithing -- which is not the only skill or craft possible. Of course, we are also skipping over the big part about this. In the time period in general use, iron had to be alloyed -- or made into steel. Making steel in a standard furnace was the blacksmith's job -- they had to take the time to do it, which was generally a couple days, because they had to get to the high temperatures and keep it there -- a kg of steel could take two days to make, and that's before it was molded into a bar. A simple iron sword was quick, comparatively, to the finer, more in demand steel.
And yeah, in those days most blacksmiths didn't make swords -- you had to be someone who was taught in a special place to do so by someone who had an arrangement with a noble or other patron who could afford the raw ores, and usually you worked as part of a larger smithy under the aegis there. We are dealing with a higher level of demand than they did and of course the essential fantasy aspect of "well, go see a blacksmith for a sword".
(this also raises the question of why an adventurer would need to forge a sword in a dungeon. I mean, default rules don't have weapons break all that much, and it is entirely possible for a sword they start with at 1st level to be the sword then end with at 20th level, lol)
All of which really shows that the use of smithing as an example is really a bad one for this purpose -- while one can try to twist and invet and sort of kludge one's way into "ok, yeah, maybe", it really is a lot of work to justify something that is generally going to be a downtime activity overall.
Other crafts, well, they are different.
Handiwork -- the crochet, embroidery, needlepoint, lace making, knitting kind of stuff is absolutely a craft that can be done in dungeons -- and, much to the surprise of many, was something that sold far more highly than many blacksmith's good. I'd even argue it could be done during rest periods. A pair of trousers in that time period could cost more than a sword (mostly because they didn't wear trousers -- they wore woven or knitted leggings).
The weaving arts -- rug making, cloth weaving, spinning, carding -- are a little different. One could card easily, and I suppose a spinning wheel could be dropping a bag of holding. Some of the small looms that were used could be done (nothing big, mind you, talking about a meter wide and maybe a meter and a half high), i suppose.
Instrument making could be done is bits and pieces. But that is also a much more involved process, specially once you get into lamination.
Some of the clothing crafts would work -- glove making, cobbling, hat making. Plain old tailoring/seamstry requires a good amount of light.
Not going to be much chandlery or ink making, no enameling or tanning going on. So, just sitting down to really think about it, when folks talk about Crafting they really don't mean actually using crafts.
They may mean smithing -- black, silver, gold, white, copper, farrying --but no, what they really mean is "magically taking things they find and turning them into something else".
Now, I say that because I have a list of around 200 actual crafts and skills and such that were common to the period. And my Adventures can take a few months to resolve in-game time. But my understanding is that most adventures for most other people take place over a period of days -- often fewer than 15. Where downtime is filled in with camping and cooking and bedding down for the night -- but also apparently no one does random wilderness encounters at 3 am, depriving them of a long rest, etc.
I never hear about people hauling their wagons up to a dungeon entrance, making them ready to haul away heaps of treasure, carrying their adventuring supplies like water and food stuff and cooking gear (because the usual travel pot is about enough for 1, after two hours of cooking). Setting a guard on the goods as they dive in, hauling stuff back through the dungeon to get it to the carts.
My group plays all of that. because things happen, and there is a reason player's are generally expected to make their own maps (something VTT is killing) and they do forget wherethose traps they got past were.
but we also do see the entire thing as being like a book, not a movie or video game. All of that is part of the story of the characters. It does go a lot faster, don't get me wrong ("We're leaving." Seven minutes later in real time they've done five hours in-game of work getting out of what took them fifteen days in-game and six months of session time getting into).
Crafting to make money? Yeah, possible -- but most actal crafts took multiples of actual hours longer then than they do today. To buy a bolt of cloth -- we'll say simple muslin, not even high grade -- would have cost as much as a typical village merchant earned in 3 months, at the minimum. Those bolts might be enough to make 1 tunic.
There is a degree of fantasy involved -- no question, but how you apply that fantasy is one thing. "I can make a bolt of cloth with magic". Well then, make a bolt of cloth with magic. Use that spell slot on fabricate. go for it.
That isn't crafting, though. That's using magic to make something. And not everyone -- not even all magic users -- can do it.
Simply put, there is no "realistic in the same sense as the rest of the game, even abstract like HP" way to do "I want to make a +3 Flametongue Battle Axe for my character in the middle of this adventure in a matter of a couple of hours."
Which is not an argument against a crafting system.
I took that list of 200 ad boiled it down to around 30 things, based on what they do and what they need to do it. That gave me about 30 crafting skills that ca be used to create things during downtime. And it means tat there are ways to create a magical weapon -- during downtime -- as part of preparation.
Potions of healing and other odds and ends, yep, they can make those too. The big thing is that even a fighter in my game can do it -- they need to do a bunch of stuff and they cannot do it alone, but they can make it happen. Are they going to make a wand of fireballs? Well, if they can get the stuff to do it, yeah -- and I'm not going to stop them, but it will take them a bit to do it in terms of in-game time, even if actual play time is only ten, fifteen minutes.
This is why I say that if what folks want is a Video Game Crafting system -- I stop in the dungeon and make a thing really fast while we are waiting -- that's going to crash and burn as far as 2024 rules go. They aren't going to create that. Such a thing would need to be a home brewed set up.
THe same way that my more involved and researched one would do the same. But what I did is closer to what the game currently has, and builds off what it already has in place.
If 80% of the players of the game decide they want a video game crafting system, then they may indeed put one in -- I'm not saying that isn't a possibility. But I don't see it as such -- most folks want that semblance of reality.
Some things here
so, if you are saying portraiture took 180 hours for reasons that have nothing to do with how long it takes to paint, then its not really relvent to crafting time. Thats more a case of working with nobles takes 140 hours. painting might take 40. I am an artist, it varies greatly from artist to artist. I'm fairly slow, but i can go to the city in my area, and see portrait artists do paintings way better than dark age artists in 30 minutes.
I went to college for mech engineering, and you apparently know mech engineers. So I know a bit about manufacturing. There is a lot you can do with a mill or a lathe, you probably aren't doing every part of any crafting process. Weavers would probably buy textiles, or reclaim it. Time breakdowns have a lot to do with economics, workflows, specific needs of the crafter. Mansion has whatever inside it you want it to have. There is no qualitative difference between a fireplace, furnishings and a workshop. A workshop just contains furniture with a different shape. The servants can do things, mend clothes and perform tasks humans could is specifically mentioned. Things taken from the mansion might disappear, but that doesnt matter. You bring materials, you shape and work the materials in the mansion. A nail I bring from bag of holding(or a plain pack) hammered in by a mansion hammer by an unseen servant would still be hammered when I leave.
But part of the issue with trying to deep dive here, is that dark ages with the world and magic 5e presents makes no real sense. Wizards go to colleges, (any person can learn magic) study for years and can manipulate the world more easily and in ways we can't duplicate with current technology. They have sending stones as a low level tech, the can mend things low level. There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development and be in the dark ages. Something as simple as a steam engine. (simple in concept, an object that creates motion with a common resource) revolutionized the world in a short time frame. There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring.(craftsmen spend 1000s of hours doing this, learning basic spells is a lesser task). It would have to be an intentional and rigorously enforced separation of knowledge.
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
Well, the issue for crafting isn't just "how long does it take that person to do it", though. The issue really is "how long does it take for that craftwork to be completed from start to finish".
As for "way better", well you do have access to premixed bases, pre stretched canvas, safe pigments from typically synthetic sources and a whole lot more stuff that is wholly and entirely a product of the technological advances since then (speaking of, did you catch the stuff about the non-ochre reds and Da Vinci's invention of one of the most popular pint formulas?), and some pretty significant training in perspective and perception that simply did not exist widely previously.
You mention the steam engine. Were you aware that they had the Steam engine in BCE? You mention mills and lathes -- but those were not only not common, they wEren't well known or used often. In short, a lot of what you are pointing out is is what feeds into your later point -- that the level of technology we should be looking at in D&D shouldn't be based in the 600 to 1400 time period (6000 BCE to 1500 AD broad).
Much of what you go into after that is the use of magic in place of technology, and that's a valid point -- it is how we get Eberron. However, note that Eberron is not as popular as FR. I, for one, wouldn't use such a world that involves "magitech" unless it was a modern day setting. And by Modern day, I don't mean steampunk, I mean 2025 or later. For a really simple reason: not everyone can use magic.
That point of yours is actually not a rule. It is a setting concept, a bit of Lore that is specific to a given world, and on my world, it fails. you see, while everyone can use magic, most people have so little that it exhausts them to try, and can only do it in a ritual circle. Say, roughly, 3 points of energy, use all your energy you pass out, and a cantrip costs 1 point. What makes a Mage different is their ability to hold that energy -- in broader terms, that they can gather enough to use a spell slot.
And everything I just noted is part of Lore, not mechanics. Which i do because you were arguing that all the worlds created to use D&D operate with magic as a technology, and most do not.
Absolutely some do. Not even arguing that. I also can't say that is isn't a slim majority -- I can argue that it is not the 80% level that the designers seek. Artificer is still not a wholly beloved class, and versions of it have been around since the mid 80's.
When you say "There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development" you are making presumptions about a lot of folks worlds -- over half of which are entirely custom worlds, because more than half of the games that are played are played on worlds that are not a creation, even a little, of any of the published D&D worlds -- and trust me, you do not want to do that. It insults all those other people, lol.
"There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring." is your opinion, and it is not a popular opinion among most D&D players (not all, merely most). Because it isn't a new opinion, and yet D&D persists with people wielding swords and we don't have repeating rifles driven by magical cartridges and we don't suborbital platforms launched by magic and ...
... do not think that I am saying those things are bad. I have helped people create such worlds, so I completely understand your point. But by the exact same basis of "it has to work this way!", there are fantasy worlds where the physics and chemistry that make a lot of these things possible do not exist -- even with magic. Indeed, because of magic. I am only one of several folks with PHDs at my table, and seriously, I twist them in knots because they keep wanting to apply real world physics to a game.
Go out and look up worldbuilding forums and sites and you will find that there is a LOT of that kind of discourse out there. We worldbuilders are very particular about that kind of thing, and I can remember a six month, 10,000 reply thread from the 90's, on the subject.After all, we are talking about magic -- and magic does not have to replace technology, and magic does not have to be technology. Sometimes, it is just magic.
The game world I have is still an Iron cored planet, but the iron isn't found within the crust -- but aluminum is, and then it is found in actual deposits of metallic ore that do not require precipitation, merely heat. THe manufacturing system is completely different. Iron is rare, and that is mostly from an extrasolar source that is no longer even remotely possible, save for a limited degree with an oort cloud that has an atypical structure.
Super useless information -- except it also provides a lot of reason why some stuff works and other things don't. Nor is my world an outlier in that -- stuff like that is very common.
Incidentally, you mention "rigorously enforced and controlled separation of knowledge" -- guess what: that was the norm between 600 AD and 1300 AD. It goes back even further -- historically, the knowledge of ways and means of creating or locating materials for creating was held tighter than trade secrets are today, and with far more serious penalties (death). Marco Polo's story is a huge example of that. Why do you think we are just now discovering and figuring out Romans built waterproof concrete, or why we still haven't figured out what greek fire was?
The part that will make you pull your hair out is that I don't disagree with you, lol. D&D needs a whole host of spells that deal with and replace technology in it, though -- and have you see them, or do you just think that they should be there, despite 5 editions where they still haven't done that?
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
On this part we are both wholly in agreement. The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
I mentioned my fellow players having assorted education -- mine is in sociology and psychology and religion (guess what I focus on in my world building Just wild guess, lol). I have a huge love of history and all that and my top five favorite books are all reference books, including one that is a timeline of global events going back over 6000 years. Technology is a section of it, and I'll tell ya, most people seriously overestimate the level of technology that was available prior to about 1600.
Painting and various pigments existed before the dark ages of Europe, and most artists didnt create all their tools. or mediums. Canvas is only one medium for painting, its not a requirement, and 5e assumes technology where you can expect to buy pens and paper and wood, and cloth. They even have a package called painters supplies. One can expect therefore an artist isnt expected to create paintings out of trees, and forage for dye pigments from nature. IE that shouldn't be a part of their crafting time.
lathes have been documented since 13th century BCE. A milling machine is just a lathe in reverse (spin the tool instead of the object) fundamentally similar to a grinding wheel.. the concept isn't hard, its basically grinding, or cutting things. The point of the steam engine in my example wasn't the mechanics, its the concept of if I can create repetitive motion via a common resource. Once you have that, you can do a lot more with simple machines like levers, screws (which are actually levers) pulleys, planes etc. Some technologies follow other technologies. And technology is at its core just replicatable knowledge with consistent use case.
Magic is technology automatically if it can intentionally create similar results. There is no difference between a cantrip and a match, in terms of technology. Also, making a fire from wood, a wheel, and a chair are technology. You can be certain the process of creating interdimensional spaces inside of a small bag would be considered technology. Even if technology is limited by the abilities of the human, its still technology. Like a bicycle. (so even if magic was limited to a small group of people it would still be tech, that society would make use of).
One level 13 wizard existing can make as many wizards as your civilization has rubies. (simulacrum makes simulacrum).
To be clear I am not talking about every possible world one can create in a ttrpg, i'm talking about the lore and framework of dnd 5e. In 5e entities can learn magic, and knowledge and experience is the primary limiter of their power. The pHb mentions lecturing at universities. So for people playing 5e and using the phb and dmg, magic is a learnable skill. To be clear society doesn't need most people to be do something to profit from them. only 5% of our population can be defined as an engineer/scientist. of that 5% only a small fraction of them actually solve new problems that impact society. Doctors are like .3% population. One high end wizard can (help) build a city that lasts 1000 years. 5e PHB postulates, wizards exist, they work based on knowledge, they have centers of knowledge and teaching, and they often work for people in power. This implies they are being utilized by societies as technology, and societies help create wizards probably for this purpose. (Lords, king, or guilds must be allowing or promoting these universities)
much of your argument is about what type of world people want to play in, and I agree, we handwave or invent reasons to create a society that fits the type of story we want to tell or play in. It doesnt matter if its probable. That matters when the people at the table want it to matter. The premise of DND is swords and sorcery, and to a large extent, the world is warped to create that setting. But my overall point is crafting exists, or doesnt exist primarily for the story and adventures people want to have, not because it doesnt make sense in the framework of 5e. 5e is a magical world of multiple planes and is extremely loose with what is possible or how things are done. (most likely intentionally) At one point they wanted crafting to be tedious, and be something people might really only engage with inbetween campaigns. or backstory, but if they decide they don't mind people engaging with it differently, they'll change those norms.
they already did this once with XGTE for the 5e universe.
Why are you all arguing real word physics and time to make things? It is really irrelevant to the discussion as a whole.
I think its fine to have downtime activities, but players should also be able to actively pursue things, and, get things done while adventuring. I think exp should be another option for progressing certain things. The rules for crafting were kind of crazy to me, the time in workweeks was far beyond the time to level.
The time requirements for crafting are totally reasonable from a worldbuilding perspective. They're just ... not useful to most PCs.
everything is reasonable from a world building perspective, if you define it as what ever I say in lore makes sense.
it doesn't really make sense in terms of game design, consistency, or much else really.
20 days to create an uncommon item, why? game design wise thats super slow, lore wise, people can cast simulacrum and create a whole new magical person that lasts forever in 12 hours, yet for some reason it would take this guy 200 days of 8 hour work to make a dagger that does fire+piercing damage? It makes no real sense.
it makes sense from a standpoint of, we want it to take 200 days to make a rare item so people don't engage with this mechanic in normal games, and people wanting to profit in downtime are inefficient. But there were many possible solutions to the second issue, and the first is a questionable goal.
So, I am particularly big on the idea of crafting being a downtime thing. It took an effort for me to acknowledge that folks can crochet, do needlework, and knit in a dungeon, lol. But I want to point something out about that effort -- it was a player effort and it was mostly about me being willing to let them make socks while traveling and exploring.
Yes, that was the literal example that won me over, lol. I tend to approach things from a "real word" and then add fantasy to them. Iwas sort hung upon the whole "in the dungeon thing", and I was wrong to be so.
So, a mail shirt might take 500 hours to make. That's not the fantasy, that's the reality, It is shocking how easily one can google stuff, y'know?
That's a fairly standard "middle ages" baseline -- for mail. It also requires a workshop, and includes fitting and other factors, so for the "fantasy" part, I'd cut it down to probably 250 hours. TO people who make chain mail, that is easily the most unrealistic thing they could think of. So, fantasy part met.
Note that I describe Hours, as well. I don't deal in days, myself, I deal in hours.
Most standard portraiture done during that era took about 180 hours.
making a cask to age wine or bourbon in could take as much time as a chain shirt. You start to dig into things, and suddenly the notion of 200 hours for something seems, well, really gentle -- and these are non-magical items. Even if you can move away from the requirements for a workshop, the crafting of a dagger back then took far, far longer than it does today, where someone can use modern tools and technology (starting with a hearth and the ready presence of ingots) to make a knife in about six hours -- for them, it was a lot more time. Like 100 hours, easy.
because of the 8 hours a day rule, that means you can apply fatigue to time over 8 spent -- which shorten the number of day -- or you can have someone help and reduce that time (if done in shifts or combined), and so forth.
Again, this is before magical item stuff comes around.
I see magical item stuff as being the second stage in the creation of something -- they have to make an ordinary thing before they make a magical form of it. So the magical part might take less time -- I mean, generally, magic is pretty quick. So, if the "normal" phase of the item includes rare or unusual ingredients, it could easily take more time since they aren't part of the normal process.
THen comes the enchanting or imbuing or whatever, and that's a process as well.
So even then, most of the items that folks want to make during an adventure are still going to require downtime -- assuming that one tries to follow a realistic set up.
On the other hand, one can also go the videogame route -- "sure, you go the stuff? you got the tools? Go for it, make your roll."
That's going to be a hard sell to a lot of DMs and even more players. Enough to block it from reaching the 80% popularity point? I think so. Whereas I don't think that would be the case for a system that comes even marginally close to "reality".
I could be wrong -- as I noted, the PF system is popular among its folks.
on the other hand, the party now has less penalty as they tread into cold weather because when they were still in warmer lands, player A picked up a few skeins of yarn and started knitting and player b did the same and now the whole party has cold weather clothes.
how many hours of crafting time is that?
THe big challenge is always going to be the "i want to make it now, in the dungeon" crowd -- and ime, that isn't going to fly, because while carving a pretty basic, boring stick into a wand might not take a long time, the lore of the game world may add or require special materials, or intricate detailing, and all of that adds to the complexity of creating it.
what time period do you think dnd is representing?, making a dagger doesnt take 100 hours. In midevil times making a sword took a week, not working that hard, maybe 30 hours. Also this is world with magic, there should be some things that are relatively easier to achieve through magic. I can't speak to crafting armor, but in game it costs way more to make full plate, so it might not surprise me that it takes longer. As an artist, the 180 hours on a portrait thing, highly depends on the skill of the artist, and maybe the medium.180 is on the high side though.
However, I wouldn't assume the time consuming part of crafting is the magic side. Or that everyone crafting something is starting from scratch. Magic generally appears to take a lot less time than doing mundane things, and is more about skill than time. Its probable that someone might buy or repurpose basic mundane parts of magic items rather making them. The problem with using time as a basis, as you pointed out, its not really time that actually decides how common something is. Making a gold ring is a lot less time consuming than making a sword. There are relatively common things that take a long amount of hours, and relatively rare things that take less. Some things are rare due to requiring people of high skill, or because of the resources, or number of people. From a creating things point, designing or coming up with something new, or more pretty, can be the most difficult part.
As far as crafting in a dungeon, that probably depends what you are doing, and how you are doing it. I imagine a dude with a Magnificent mansion of forging wouldn't have much trouble. Likewise, a guy with heat metal can make red hot metal instantly instead of having to heat up a forge and all the inefficiencies that brings. Person with a bag of holding can have the best tools available instantly.
But a 5e level crafting system doesnt need to be realistic first and foremost, it mostly needs to meet the needs of players and be fun. And probably needs to fit the fiction of the world enough not to break the avg immersion.
I can grant that a sword takes 60 hours to make using a medieval sword, assuming that is the only thing a single blacksmith is working on in a given week. I would hope that said blacksmith has several apprentices of differing capabilities working for them so that their shop could still stay open, working on other things.
On the portraiture -- that's a literal average of the amount of time most sittings took. It wasn't merely a factor of an artist sitting down and painting start to finish, it was an aspect of time for the modes to sit, time to get the right lighting, and of course, the all important you will get this right or you won't be paid for it" factor. Since broad wealth of merchants wasn't a common feature enabling strong patronage outside of major trading hubs until into the 1400s, portraiture was often limited to the nobility and in folklore Nobility had a propensity to lop off heads of artists who displeased them.
Yo asked what time period: the time period is generally thought to be 600 through 1400, in terms of Europe. I go off on tangents about this, so will try hard to avoid talking about it (pseudo-Greco-Roman/Dark/Early Middle/Late Middle/Renaissance/Victorian/Edwardian with elements of Middle period Egypt, Abbasid (6th C), and other such, primarily pre through late stage silk road).
The pair of us agree on the magic part not generally taking near as long -- my general take slots in alongside your "creating new or more pretty" part, as the introduction of non-standard materials (the heart of a gryphon) tends to create challenges in the fabrication process of the core item.
I will say that given there is no magical forge creation spell (The Mag Mansion doesn't create a forge, and even if it did, anything removed from it would vanish once you step outside it or the spell ends), that heat metal doesn't remove the need to have a hammer, anvil, quenching, honig, and carving stuff. I do grant that a bag of holding could hold those things (though that Anvil is going to be a pain -- those plain simple blocks were usually only about 20kg flat topped hunks, but the non-moving base was what was really important, and you can't get that in a dungeon).
But this, of course, is all presuming that we are dealing with Smithing -- which is not the only skill or craft possible. Of course, we are also skipping over the big part about this. In the time period in general use, iron had to be alloyed -- or made into steel. Making steel in a standard furnace was the blacksmith's job -- they had to take the time to do it, which was generally a couple days, because they had to get to the high temperatures and keep it there -- a kg of steel could take two days to make, and that's before it was molded into a bar. A simple iron sword was quick, comparatively, to the finer, more in demand steel.
And yeah, in those days most blacksmiths didn't make swords -- you had to be someone who was taught in a special place to do so by someone who had an arrangement with a noble or other patron who could afford the raw ores, and usually you worked as part of a larger smithy under the aegis there. We are dealing with a higher level of demand than they did and of course the essential fantasy aspect of "well, go see a blacksmith for a sword".
(this also raises the question of why an adventurer would need to forge a sword in a dungeon. I mean, default rules don't have weapons break all that much, and it is entirely possible for a sword they start with at 1st level to be the sword then end with at 20th level, lol)
All of which really shows that the use of smithing as an example is really a bad one for this purpose -- while one can try to twist and invet and sort of kludge one's way into "ok, yeah, maybe", it really is a lot of work to justify something that is generally going to be a downtime activity overall.
Other crafts, well, they are different.
Handiwork -- the crochet, embroidery, needlepoint, lace making, knitting kind of stuff is absolutely a craft that can be done in dungeons -- and, much to the surprise of many, was something that sold far more highly than many blacksmith's good. I'd even argue it could be done during rest periods. A pair of trousers in that time period could cost more than a sword (mostly because they didn't wear trousers -- they wore woven or knitted leggings).
The weaving arts -- rug making, cloth weaving, spinning, carding -- are a little different. One could card easily, and I suppose a spinning wheel could be dropping a bag of holding. Some of the small looms that were used could be done (nothing big, mind you, talking about a meter wide and maybe a meter and a half high), i suppose.
Instrument making could be done is bits and pieces. But that is also a much more involved process, specially once you get into lamination.
Some of the clothing crafts would work -- glove making, cobbling, hat making. Plain old tailoring/seamstry requires a good amount of light.
Not going to be much chandlery or ink making, no enameling or tanning going on. So, just sitting down to really think about it, when folks talk about Crafting they really don't mean actually using crafts.
They may mean smithing -- black, silver, gold, white, copper, farrying --but no, what they really mean is "magically taking things they find and turning them into something else".
Now, I say that because I have a list of around 200 actual crafts and skills and such that were common to the period. And my Adventures can take a few months to resolve in-game time. But my understanding is that most adventures for most other people take place over a period of days -- often fewer than 15. Where downtime is filled in with camping and cooking and bedding down for the night -- but also apparently no one does random wilderness encounters at 3 am, depriving them of a long rest, etc.
I never hear about people hauling their wagons up to a dungeon entrance, making them ready to haul away heaps of treasure, carrying their adventuring supplies like water and food stuff and cooking gear (because the usual travel pot is about enough for 1, after two hours of cooking). Setting a guard on the goods as they dive in, hauling stuff back through the dungeon to get it to the carts.
My group plays all of that. because things happen, and there is a reason player's are generally expected to make their own maps (something VTT is killing) and they do forget wherethose traps they got past were.
but we also do see the entire thing as being like a book, not a movie or video game. All of that is part of the story of the characters. It does go a lot faster, don't get me wrong ("We're leaving." Seven minutes later in real time they've done five hours in-game of work getting out of what took them fifteen days in-game and six months of session time getting into).
Crafting to make money? Yeah, possible -- but most actal crafts took multiples of actual hours longer then than they do today. To buy a bolt of cloth -- we'll say simple muslin, not even high grade -- would have cost as much as a typical village merchant earned in 3 months, at the minimum. Those bolts might be enough to make 1 tunic.
There is a degree of fantasy involved -- no question, but how you apply that fantasy is one thing. "I can make a bolt of cloth with magic". Well then, make a bolt of cloth with magic. Use that spell slot on fabricate. go for it.
That isn't crafting, though. That's using magic to make something. And not everyone -- not even all magic users -- can do it.
Simply put, there is no "realistic in the same sense as the rest of the game, even abstract like HP" way to do "I want to make a +3 Flametongue Battle Axe for my character in the middle of this adventure in a matter of a couple of hours."
Which is not an argument against a crafting system.
I took that list of 200 ad boiled it down to around 30 things, based on what they do and what they need to do it. That gave me about 30 crafting skills that ca be used to create things during downtime. And it means tat there are ways to create a magical weapon -- during downtime -- as part of preparation.
Potions of healing and other odds and ends, yep, they can make those too. The big thing is that even a fighter in my game can do it -- they need to do a bunch of stuff and they cannot do it alone, but they can make it happen. Are they going to make a wand of fireballs? Well, if they can get the stuff to do it, yeah -- and I'm not going to stop them, but it will take them a bit to do it in terms of in-game time, even if actual play time is only ten, fifteen minutes.
This is why I say that if what folks want is a Video Game Crafting system -- I stop in the dungeon and make a thing really fast while we are waiting -- that's going to crash and burn as far as 2024 rules go. They aren't going to create that. Such a thing would need to be a home brewed set up.
THe same way that my more involved and researched one would do the same. But what I did is closer to what the game currently has, and builds off what it already has in place.
If 80% of the players of the game decide they want a video game crafting system, then they may indeed put one in -- I'm not saying that isn't a possibility. But I don't see it as such -- most folks want that semblance of reality.
Some things here
so, if you are saying portraiture took 180 hours for reasons that have nothing to do with how long it takes to paint, then its not really relvent to crafting time. Thats more a case of working with nobles takes 140 hours. painting might take 40. I am an artist, it varies greatly from artist to artist. I'm fairly slow, but i can go to the city in my area, and see portrait artists do paintings way better than dark age artists in 30 minutes.
I went to college for mech engineering, and you apparently know mech engineers. So I know a bit about manufacturing. There is a lot you can do with a mill or a lathe, you probably aren't doing every part of any crafting process. Weavers would probably buy textiles, or reclaim it. Time breakdowns have a lot to do with economics, workflows, specific needs of the crafter. Mansion has whatever inside it you want it to have. There is no qualitative difference between a fireplace, furnishings and a workshop. A workshop just contains furniture with a different shape. The servants can do things, mend clothes and perform tasks humans could is specifically mentioned. Things taken from the mansion might disappear, but that doesnt matter. You bring materials, you shape and work the materials in the mansion. A nail I bring from bag of holding(or a plain pack) hammered in by a mansion hammer by an unseen servant would still be hammered when I leave.
But part of the issue with trying to deep dive here, is that dark ages with the world and magic 5e presents makes no real sense. Wizards go to colleges, (any person can learn magic) study for years and can manipulate the world more easily and in ways we can't duplicate with current technology. They have sending stones as a low level tech, the can mend things low level. There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development and be in the dark ages. Something as simple as a steam engine. (simple in concept, an object that creates motion with a common resource) revolutionized the world in a short time frame. There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring.(craftsmen spend 1000s of hours doing this, learning basic spells is a lesser task). It would have to be an intentional and rigorously enforced separation of knowledge.
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
Well, the issue for crafting isn't just "how long does it take that person to do it", though. The issue really is "how long does it take for that craftwork to be completed from start to finish".
As for "way better", well you do have access to premixed bases, pre stretched canvas, safe pigments from typically synthetic sources and a whole lot more stuff that is wholly and entirely a product of the technological advances since then (speaking of, did you catch the stuff about the non-ochre reds and Da Vinci's invention of one of the most popular pint formulas?), and some pretty significant training in perspective and perception that simply did not exist widely previously.
You mention the steam engine. Were you aware that they had the Steam engine in BCE? You mention mills and lathes -- but those were not only not common, they wEren't well known or used often. In short, a lot of what you are pointing out is is what feeds into your later point -- that the level of technology we should be looking at in D&D shouldn't be based in the 600 to 1400 time period (6000 BCE to 1500 AD broad).
Much of what you go into after that is the use of magic in place of technology, and that's a valid point -- it is how we get Eberron. However, note that Eberron is not as popular as FR. I, for one, wouldn't use such a world that involves "magitech" unless it was a modern day setting. And by Modern day, I don't mean steampunk, I mean 2025 or later. For a really simple reason: not everyone can use magic.
That point of yours is actually not a rule. It is a setting concept, a bit of Lore that is specific to a given world, and on my world, it fails. you see, while everyone can use magic, most people have so little that it exhausts them to try, and can only do it in a ritual circle. Say, roughly, 3 points of energy, use all your energy you pass out, and a cantrip costs 1 point. What makes a Mage different is their ability to hold that energy -- in broader terms, that they can gather enough to use a spell slot.
And everything I just noted is part of Lore, not mechanics. Which i do because you were arguing that all the worlds created to use D&D operate with magic as a technology, and most do not.
Absolutely some do. Not even arguing that. I also can't say that is isn't a slim majority -- I can argue that it is not the 80% level that the designers seek. Artificer is still not a wholly beloved class, and versions of it have been around since the mid 80's.
When you say "There is no way that you can have this level of magical technology, information sharing, and institutional development" you are making presumptions about a lot of folks worlds -- over half of which are entirely custom worlds, because more than half of the games that are played are played on worlds that are not a creation, even a little, of any of the published D&D worlds -- and trust me, you do not want to do that. It insults all those other people, lol.
"There is no way a society with the power of cantrips existing wouldn't be more advanced than this. Every craftsman would be some level of wizard. Spells would be created for craftsmanship, not just adventuring." is your opinion, and it is not a popular opinion among most D&D players (not all, merely most). Because it isn't a new opinion, and yet D&D persists with people wielding swords and we don't have repeating rifles driven by magical cartridges and we don't suborbital platforms launched by magic and ...
... do not think that I am saying those things are bad. I have helped people create such worlds, so I completely understand your point. But by the exact same basis of "it has to work this way!", there are fantasy worlds where the physics and chemistry that make a lot of these things possible do not exist -- even with magic. Indeed, because of magic. I am only one of several folks with PHDs at my table, and seriously, I twist them in knots because they keep wanting to apply real world physics to a game.
Go out and look up worldbuilding forums and sites and you will find that there is a LOT of that kind of discourse out there. We worldbuilders are very particular about that kind of thing, and I can remember a six month, 10,000 reply thread from the 90's, on the subject.After all, we are talking about magic -- and magic does not have to replace technology, and magic does not have to be technology. Sometimes, it is just magic.
The game world I have is still an Iron cored planet, but the iron isn't found within the crust -- but aluminum is, and then it is found in actual deposits of metallic ore that do not require precipitation, merely heat. THe manufacturing system is completely different. Iron is rare, and that is mostly from an extrasolar source that is no longer even remotely possible, save for a limited degree with an oort cloud that has an atypical structure.
Super useless information -- except it also provides a lot of reason why some stuff works and other things don't. Nor is my world an outlier in that -- stuff like that is very common.
Incidentally, you mention "rigorously enforced and controlled separation of knowledge" -- guess what: that was the norm between 600 AD and 1300 AD. It goes back even further -- historically, the knowledge of ways and means of creating or locating materials for creating was held tighter than trade secrets are today, and with far more serious penalties (death). Marco Polo's story is a huge example of that. Why do you think we are just now discovering and figuring out Romans built waterproof concrete, or why we still haven't figured out what greek fire was?
The part that will make you pull your hair out is that I don't disagree with you, lol. D&D needs a whole host of spells that deal with and replace technology in it, though -- and have you see them, or do you just think that they should be there, despite 5 editions where they still haven't done that?
But this is fine, because its a fantasy and we hand wave things, and use our best judgement to smooth it over to tell a story, or play a game. Thats the thing here, we all know most of dnd is designed as a game. Its a far cry from realism, or even consistency from lore to game. So really its mostly a matter of what makes sense for the game, and in 5e, and ttrpg in general, a lot of that depends what the players want to do. The DMG's purpose is to create a framework for fleshing out games to match your table. A crafting system there would be for people who like crafting. And should be able to be incorporated into a game. The explanation of how comes after that idea. Like a bag of holding which is merely uncommon, which in our world would revolutionalize everything.
On this part we are both wholly in agreement. The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
I mentioned my fellow players having assorted education -- mine is in sociology and psychology and religion (guess what I focus on in my world building Just wild guess, lol). I have a huge love of history and all that and my top five favorite books are all reference books, including one that is a timeline of global events going back over 6000 years. Technology is a section of it, and I'll tell ya, most people seriously overestimate the level of technology that was available prior to about 1600.
Painting and various pigments existed before the dark ages of Europe, and most artists didnt create all their tools. or mediums. Canvas is only one medium for painting, its not a requirement, and 5e assumes technology where you can expect to buy pens and paper and wood, and cloth. They even have a package called painters supplies. One can expect therefore an artist isnt expected to create paintings out of trees, and forage for dye pigments from nature. IE that shouldn't be a part of their crafting time.
lathes have been documented since 13th century BCE. A milling machine is just a lathe in reverse (spin the tool instead of the object) fundamentally similar to a grinding wheel.. the concept isn't hard, its basically grinding, or cutting things. The point of the steam engine in my example wasn't the mechanics, its the concept of if I can create repetitive motion via a common resource. Once you have that, you can do a lot more with simple machines like levers, screws (which are actually levers) pulleys, planes etc. Some technologies follow other technologies. And technology is at its core just replicatable knowledge with consistent use case.
Magic is technology automatically if it can intentionally create similar results. There is no difference between a cantrip and a match, in terms of technology. Also, making a fire from wood, a wheel, and a chair are technology. You can be certain the process of creating interdimensional spaces inside of a small bag would be considered technology. Even if technology is limited by the abilities of the human, its still technology. Like a bicycle. (so even if magic was limited to a small group of people it would still be tech, that society would make use of).
One level 13 wizard existing can make as many wizards as your civilization has rubies. (simulacrum makes simulacrum).
To be clear I am not talking about every possible world one can create in a ttrpg, i'm talking about the lore and framework of dnd 5e. In 5e entities can learn magic, and knowledge and experience is the primary limiter of their power. The pHb mentions lecturing at universities. So for people playing 5e and using the phb and dmg, magic is a learnable skill. To be clear society doesn't need most people to be do something to profit from them. only 5% of our population can be defined as an engineer/scientist. of that 5% only a small fraction of them actually solve new problems that impact society. Doctors are like .3% population. One high end wizard can (help) build a city that lasts 1000 years. 5e PHB postulates, wizards exist, they work based on knowledge, they have centers of knowledge and teaching, and they often work for people in power. This implies they are being utilized by societies as technology, and societies help create wizards probably for this purpose. (Lords, king, or guilds must be allowing or promoting these universities)
much of your argument is about what type of world people want to play in, and I agree, we handwave or invent reasons to create a society that fits the type of story we want to tell or play in. It doesnt matter if its probable. That matters when the people at the table want it to matter. The premise of DND is swords and sorcery, and to a large extent, the world is warped to create that setting. But my overall point is crafting exists, or doesnt exist primarily for the story and adventures people want to have, not because it doesnt make sense in the framework of 5e. 5e is a magical world of multiple planes and is extremely loose with what is possible or how things are done. (most likely intentionally) At one point they wanted crafting to be tedious, and be something people might really only engage with inbetween campaigns. or backstory, but if they decide they don't mind people engaging with it differently, they'll change those norms.
they already did this once with XGTE for the 5e universe.
Why are you all arguing real word physics and time to make things? It is really irrelevant to the discussion as a whole.
thats actually my point. That 5e has never been realistic or even self consistent lorewise with respect to its game design, So its not going to be the main limiter on any crafting design. You see it in the concluding paragraph.
The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
My point is that most folks want that semi-realism. Enough folks that it likely meets that 80% thread, and they don'twant the "magic is technology" thing.
The rest is either supportive of that or sidebar ;)
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Lets not forget WoTC went on record saying that DMG was put up together in a rush and is subpar, so i can put my hands on the fire that crafting got affected for that same reason.
The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
My point is that most folks want that semi-realism. Enough folks that it likely meets that 80% thread, and they don'twant the "magic is technology" thing.
The rest is either supportive of that or sidebar ;)
ehh, the 80% thing isnt that simple.
first off its according to Crawford there are somethings they will change regardless of feedback.
second its not really what is popular with 80%, its,
of the changes they propose, they want 70+% approval or they may revert. But there are tons of things players may want that they won't present as options.
there are also things they altered that had 80+% approval, like the first ranger.
Also they have little known info on what players want that isnt in the game. The surveys rate what they present. Sometimes they appear to have a good understanding of what people are looking for, other times they seem oblivious. I doubt they have a formal process for figuring out what players want.
Lets not forget WoTC went on record saying that DMG was put up together in a rush and is subpar, so i can put my hands on the fire that crafting got affected for that same reason.
I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s that a robust crafting system has never been a part of the game, and the designers kept on with that tradition. In 1e, it used to cost a point of constitution per item crafted — which always made me wonder how many wizards died to create that sack of 20 +1 sling bullets. By 3e, making a magic item cost xp, and the amount could be pretty hefty. The earlier editions technically allowed crafting, but tacitly discouraged it. The idea wasn’t to sit around making things, it was to kill monsters and take their things. I think 5e design assumed this paradigm would just continue. This current, 5e crafting system, bare bones as it is, is actually possibly the most crafting-friendly version the game has published. There not much rules for it, but it at least no longer punishes people for trying to make something. I think the lack of a system is a side effect of the unexpected popularity of this edition. I think they expected the players to continue to be a bunch of Gen X’ers who’d been playing for decades and who don’t really expect or much want crafting, so they didn’t bother to spend time on it. Instead, they got many new, younger players who do expect and want to be able to make their own stuff. (I do wonder how much of the crafting split is a generational divide, with younger players wanting a more robust system, while us older players are confused about why they would want that. Like, why would you make a vorpal sword when some ogre out there is just sitting on one and not even using it? Just go kill the ogre and take it from the pile of stuff.)
I’m not trying to say crafting is wrong, it’s just a change in the way people play, so it will take time to develop something to satisfy the newer style.
Now, with the plans for keeping 2024 compatible, they’re in a bit of a pickle for how to add in a system that certainly a chunk of the player base wants, but still keep it compatible with the 2014 version.
Instead, they got many new, younger players who do expect and want to be able to make their own stuff. (I do wonder how much of the crafting split is a generational divide, with younger players wanting a more robust system, while us older players are confused about why they would want that. Like, why would you make a vorpal sword when some ogre out there is just sitting on one and not even using it? Just go kill the ogre and take it from the pile of stuff.)
It's mostly an artifact of the internet being good at amplifying minority opinions. I see no evidence that younger players are more interested in crafting than older players.
Can we stop auguring about what we think the percentages of something to happen is or the realizm of something and get back to the topic of what we would like to see for DM's?
Can we stop auguring about what we think the percentages of something to happen is or the realizm of something and get back to the topic of what we would like to see for DM's?
WelL, strictly speaking, the topic is what we expect they will include in the UAs for the DMG and how excited we are about that -- and the 80% basis is what they will use for anythign they put into the UAs.
It is not "what would we like", it is "what are they likely to give us".
That's why we got off on the whole crafting tangent -- most of us are pretty sure they are going to do something with crafting.
We also now know they are going to be putting more stuff about the Planes in there.
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That's why we got off on the whole crafting tangent -- most of us are pretty sure they are going to do something with crafting.
Well, I'm not sure 'most' in general; it's just a thread that got attention. If they do anything, I would lay odds on it being tied to the Bastion system.
That's why we got off on the whole crafting tangent -- most of us are pretty sure they are going to do something with crafting.
Well, I'm not sure 'most' in general; it's just a thread that got attention. If they do anything, I would lay odds on it being tied to the Bastion system.
Oh, agreed -- I even mentioned it previously. IT is the thing that makes the most sense, and part of why I expect them to have a more involved crafting system -- but it could also simply be something along the lines of what they did there -- you have a workshop and the workshop makes X goods and generates X money. And that money will be tied, at least a little, to the "standard of living" stuff.
Creating as close to a washout as they can get.
I seriously and strongly doubt they will do anything with "levels of quality" or "recipes" -- it doesn't seem to be the thing that they enjoy themselves. And I don't think at all that it will be an "instacraft" thing -- so no "in the dungeon" crafting.
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Time and money are not and have never been a solid way to balance crafting. So, if they come up with a balanced system, it really won't matter much if players ends up using it for "realistic" downtime crafting, or if they use it for "insta-crafting" during dungeon crawls. And, by the transitive property, if they release a crafting system where it really matters whether it's used for "realistic" time frames or not, then it won't be a good crafting system.
Time and money are not and have never been a solid way to balance crafting. So, if they come up with a balanced system, it really won't matter much if players ends up using it for "realistic" downtime crafting, or if they use it for "insta-crafting" during dungeon crawls. And, by the transitive property, if they release a crafting system where it really matters whether it's used for "realistic" time frames or not, then it won't be a good crafting system.
Honestly, my proposal in reviewing the bastion system is that "bastion turns" should not be tied to time; you get X per level, and how long it takes you to level is irrelevant.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
many rules in the dmg are optional, and more a framework if you want to add a thing.
for example random magic item treasure tables are an optional system. Not everyone uses it.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
many rules in the dmg are optional, and more a framework if you want to add a thing.
for example random magic item treasure tables are an optional system. Not everyone uses it.
I'm not pointing to a single system, just the fact that while one can reasonably expect to find most items from the Equipment section pretty much at demand in any decent sized settlement in D&D, the accessibility of magic items is something that the DM keeps control of. Thus I doubt they'd want to create too much of a big "here's this way to make exactly the magic item you want at a fraction of the price" system that muddles the DM's discretion over the disposition of magic items.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
They'd have to renormalize the game to have assumed levels of itemization, at which point crafting just lets you achieve the expected power level.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
I would like at least 1 example for each magic item of components that the magic Item requires to make it.
For some it’s easy like an Elemental Gem would require essence of the type of elemental the gem summons. Other’s it’s not as easy. Like what component would +1 weapons and armor need? Or a Pearl of Power?
Sorry what? A Barbarian is useless against a flying foe, a Sorcerer is useless against those devils and demons with magic resistance without a strong boi to take the hits for them. A Monk isn't useless, but it is decidly mediocre against both flying creatures and beef cake enemies.
Painting and various pigments existed before the dark ages of Europe, and most artists didnt create all their tools. or mediums. Canvas is only one medium for painting, its not a requirement, and 5e assumes technology where you can expect to buy pens and paper and wood, and cloth. They even have a package called painters supplies. One can expect therefore an artist isnt expected to create paintings out of trees, and forage for dye pigments from nature. IE that shouldn't be a part of their crafting time.
lathes have been documented since 13th century BCE. A milling machine is just a lathe in reverse (spin the tool instead of the object) fundamentally similar to a grinding wheel.. the concept isn't hard, its basically grinding, or cutting things. The point of the steam engine in my example wasn't the mechanics, its the concept of if I can create repetitive motion via a common resource. Once you have that, you can do a lot more with simple machines like levers, screws (which are actually levers) pulleys, planes etc. Some technologies follow other technologies. And technology is at its core just replicatable knowledge with consistent use case.
Magic is technology automatically if it can intentionally create similar results. There is no difference between a cantrip and a match, in terms of technology. Also, making a fire from wood, a wheel, and a chair are technology. You can be certain the process of creating interdimensional spaces inside of a small bag would be considered technology. Even if technology is limited by the abilities of the human, its still technology. Like a bicycle. (so even if magic was limited to a small group of people it would still be tech, that society would make use of).
One level 13 wizard existing can make as many wizards as your civilization has rubies. (simulacrum makes simulacrum).
To be clear I am not talking about every possible world one can create in a ttrpg, i'm talking about the lore and framework of dnd 5e. In 5e entities can learn magic, and knowledge and experience is the primary limiter of their power. The pHb mentions lecturing at universities. So for people playing 5e and using the phb and dmg, magic is a learnable skill. To be clear society doesn't need most people to be do something to profit from them. only 5% of our population can be defined as an engineer/scientist. of that 5% only a small fraction of them actually solve new problems that impact society. Doctors are like .3% population. One high end wizard can (help) build a city that lasts 1000 years. 5e PHB postulates, wizards exist, they work based on knowledge, they have centers of knowledge and teaching, and they often work for people in power. This implies they are being utilized by societies as technology, and societies help create wizards probably for this purpose. (Lords, king, or guilds must be allowing or promoting these universities)
much of your argument is about what type of world people want to play in, and I agree, we handwave or invent reasons to create a society that fits the type of story we want to tell or play in. It doesnt matter if its probable. That matters when the people at the table want it to matter. The premise of DND is swords and sorcery, and to a large extent, the world is warped to create that setting. But my overall point is crafting exists, or doesnt exist primarily for the story and adventures people want to have, not because it doesnt make sense in the framework of 5e. 5e is a magical world of multiple planes and is extremely loose with what is possible or how things are done. (most likely intentionally) At one point they wanted crafting to be tedious, and be something people might really only engage with inbetween campaigns. or backstory, but if they decide they don't mind people engaging with it differently, they'll change those norms.
they already did this once with XGTE for the 5e universe.
Why are you all arguing real word physics and time to make things? It is really irrelevant to the discussion as a whole.
thats actually my point. That 5e has never been realistic or even self consistent lorewise with respect to its game design, So its not going to be the main limiter on any crafting design. You see it in the concluding paragraph.
I repeat:
The big key is that if it is something that is going to make it into the 2024 books, it has to be something that meets that 80% popularity metric.
It isn't "what is possible, what makes sense, what's the coolest thing", it is "what makes 80% of all players happy", is simple, easy, and meets the vast majority of the "pretend fantasy era of the imaginary 600 AD to 1400 AD/Tolkien's Middle Earth but different" games out there. Like I said, they want that kind of "realism light" I'm talking about.
Because that is the fantasy world that they want to deal with.
My point is that most folks want that semi-realism. Enough folks that it likely meets that 80% thread, and they don't want the "magic is technology" thing.
The rest is either supportive of that or sidebar ;)
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Lets not forget WoTC went on record saying that DMG was put up together in a rush and is subpar, so i can put my hands on the fire that crafting got affected for that same reason.
ehh, the 80% thing isnt that simple.
first off its according to Crawford there are somethings they will change regardless of feedback.
second its not really what is popular with 80%, its,
of the changes they propose, they want 70+% approval or they may revert. But there are tons of things players may want that they won't present as options.
there are also things they altered that had 80+% approval, like the first ranger.
Also they have little known info on what players want that isnt in the game. The surveys rate what they present. Sometimes they appear to have a good understanding of what people are looking for, other times they seem oblivious. I doubt they have a formal process for figuring out what players want.
I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s that a robust crafting system has never been a part of the game, and the designers kept on with that tradition. In 1e, it used to cost a point of constitution per item crafted — which always made me wonder how many wizards died to create that sack of 20 +1 sling bullets. By 3e, making a magic item cost xp, and the amount could be pretty hefty. The earlier editions technically allowed crafting, but tacitly discouraged it. The idea wasn’t to sit around making things, it was to kill monsters and take their things.
I think 5e design assumed this paradigm would just continue. This current, 5e crafting system, bare bones as it is, is actually possibly the most crafting-friendly version the game has published. There not much rules for it, but it at least no longer punishes people for trying to make something.
I think the lack of a system is a side effect of the unexpected popularity of this edition. I think they expected the players to continue to be a bunch of Gen X’ers who’d been playing for decades and who don’t really expect or much want crafting, so they didn’t bother to spend time on it.
Instead, they got many new, younger players who do expect and want to be able to make their own stuff. (I do wonder how much of the crafting split is a generational divide, with younger players wanting a more robust system, while us older players are confused about why they would want that. Like, why would you make a vorpal sword when some ogre out there is just sitting on one and not even using it? Just go kill the ogre and take it from the pile of stuff.)
I’m not trying to say crafting is wrong, it’s just a change in the way people play, so it will take time to develop something to satisfy the newer style.
Now, with the plans for keeping 2024 compatible, they’re in a bit of a pickle for how to add in a system that certainly a chunk of the player base wants, but still keep it compatible with the 2014 version.
I think 5e is still assuming that this paradigm will continue.
It's mostly an artifact of the internet being good at amplifying minority opinions. I see no evidence that younger players are more interested in crafting than older players.
Can we stop auguring about what we think the percentages of something to happen is or the realizm of something and get back to the topic of what we would like to see for DM's?
WelL, strictly speaking, the topic is what we expect they will include in the UAs for the DMG and how excited we are about that -- and the 80% basis is what they will use for anythign they put into the UAs.
It is not "what would we like", it is "what are they likely to give us".
That's why we got off on the whole crafting tangent -- most of us are pretty sure they are going to do something with crafting.
We also now know they are going to be putting more stuff about the Planes in there.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Well, I'm not sure 'most' in general; it's just a thread that got attention. If they do anything, I would lay odds on it being tied to the Bastion system.
Oh, agreed -- I even mentioned it previously. IT is the thing that makes the most sense, and part of why I expect them to have a more involved crafting system -- but it could also simply be something along the lines of what they did there -- you have a workshop and the workshop makes X goods and generates X money. And that money will be tied, at least a little, to the "standard of living" stuff.
Creating as close to a washout as they can get.
I seriously and strongly doubt they will do anything with "levels of quality" or "recipes" -- it doesn't seem to be the thing that they enjoy themselves. And I don't think at all that it will be an "instacraft" thing -- so no "in the dungeon" crafting.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Time and money are not and have never been a solid way to balance crafting. So, if they come up with a balanced system, it really won't matter much if players ends up using it for "realistic" downtime crafting, or if they use it for "insta-crafting" during dungeon crawls. And, by the transitive property, if they release a crafting system where it really matters whether it's used for "realistic" time frames or not, then it won't be a good crafting system.
Honestly, my proposal in reviewing the bastion system is that "bastion turns" should not be tied to time; you get X per level, and how long it takes you to level is irrelevant.
Honestly, how would crafting be rebalanced in the first place? The only items worth crafting are magic items, and I'm not sure they want to bake in ease of accessibility to the crafting of magic items, given that's an area that the DM is supposed to be able to regulate at their discretion.
many rules in the dmg are optional, and more a framework if you want to add a thing.
for example random magic item treasure tables are an optional system. Not everyone uses it.
I'm not pointing to a single system, just the fact that while one can reasonably expect to find most items from the Equipment section pretty much at demand in any decent sized settlement in D&D, the accessibility of magic items is something that the DM keeps control of. Thus I doubt they'd want to create too much of a big "here's this way to make exactly the magic item you want at a fraction of the price" system that muddles the DM's discretion over the disposition of magic items.
They'd have to renormalize the game to have assumed levels of itemization, at which point crafting just lets you achieve the expected power level.
I would like at least 1 example for each magic item of components that the magic Item requires to make it.
For some it’s easy like an Elemental Gem would require essence of the type of elemental the gem summons. Other’s it’s not as easy. Like what component would +1 weapons and armor need? Or a Pearl of Power?