I like the idea of a 'Anything can be a Weapon' Master subclass. I'm not 100% convinced that was Wizard's goal for Brawler, as it seems like it was ... unfocused, if that was the end point they were reaching for. It definitely needed a better name than 'Brawler' if that was true.
The idea is nice on the abstract/cosmetic level, but it's hard to support in a way that isn't already covered by a DM being willing to be flexible with what items are close enough to use weapon stats. Plus as I mentioned it is a significant kneecap for Fighters to not be using magic weapons, particularly once you get into tier 3 and their base 3 attacks per round really start making on-hit effects work for them.
I like the idea of a 'Anything can be a Weapon' Master subclass. I'm not 100% convinced that was Wizard's goal for Brawler, as it seems like it was ... unfocused, if that was the end point they were reaching for. It definitely needed a better name than 'Brawler' if that was true.
Anything can be a weapon, includes your body, so they needed grapple and unarmed. Like James bond/true lies schwarzenegger isn't doing d1 unarmed fighting.
But it was the goal, in my previous post I linked the UA class description, it was literally about physical skill and anything being a deadly weapon. Crawford also mentioned it in the video when talking about its identity.
I think they just had a different concept of 'brawler' In 5e people would use tavern brawler to try to force the archetype. They wanted to limit the scope of tavern brawler, but build a sub class that makes better use of the concepts. They saw the tavern brawler as a highly adaptable person who uses anything in a fight. The world saw the title 'brawler' as a master pugilist foremost, even if the class was clearly not about that. (the only unarmed thing it got was a free FS really)
Just add a monk subclass with proficiency in improvised weapons and the option to use strength over Dex in their calculations and you have your brawler. If the whole central identity of monks is being able to fight while unarmored and unarmed anywhere any time it seems to fit better than with the fighter who is all about walking around as the armored and heavily armed tank.
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
I think the “James Bond” (gadgeteer spy) spin on Improvised Weapons makes more sense as a Rogue or Artificer subclass than a Fighter subclass. I mean, the way the worded the Artifcer pretty much IS a gadgeteer.
And also: that is not at all what the name “Brawler” implies. Brawler implies brutish unarmed warrior. Like a Barbarian. Not a Boxer nor practically minded Martial Artist, nor a more mystically minded Martial Artist. The Brawler should be a Barbarian. The mystically minded Martial Artist is the Monk. The practically minded Martial Artist is yet to be addressed and should be a Fighter subclass. (and all three of these leave out the less single-minded Martial Artist, which is where the Fighting Style, or a comparable Feat, should be brought in).
I agree that revisions make more sense than absolute dropping of the idea. But what they really said (from what I recall) is not that it’s dead forever, but that it’s going to require so much revision and thought that it won’t make the 2024 PHB. It will be in a later document in the same way that the Artificer will be in a later document. That seems appropriate to me.
‘it’s not a gadgeteer spy concept, it’s the I broke out a max security facility with a pencil, a brick, and a shovel. It’s anything in my hands is a deadly weapon.
MacGyver (improvised devices) is still a gadgeteer concept.
What would be a best "from fiction" improvised weapon concept is (the movie version of) Jason Borne, who has used a book to kill someone, and a rolled up magazine in a knife fight. And he does excel at unarmed fighting, but he's not a brawler. I think the point of "improvised weapons CAN be a fit for the unarmed warrior" does have a case here, but it's still one where the Brawler subclass name makes more sense as a name for a Barbarian version of the subclass, and I ALSO don't think that Borne is a Fighter. IMO: he's a Rogue(Assassin) with a Soldier background. You could argue a few levels of Fighter as part of that Soldier background, but his extensive unarmed/improvised fighting knowledge came with his Assassin career, not his Solider career, IMO. You could do a Borne character as a straight up Soldier, Rogue(Assassin), with Tavern Brawler, and possibly Unarmed fighting style (for the extra damage). Not because he IS a tavern brawler, but because tavern brawler gives him what he needs to fill in the improvised weapons while still being an unmodified Assassin subclass. The only thing missing would be allowing his unarmed strikes to be finesse weapons (which, frankly, I think should always be a thing, or at least via the Unarmed fighting style -- the Monk's special should be using Wisdom for unarmed strikes, not Dex).
I don't see a compelling case for a Fighter subclass that is specialized around improvised weapons. They're all about mastery of formal weapons, IMO. A Fighter who does it as a secondary schtick? Pick up the Tavern Brawler Feat.
Could a Rogue (whether a criminal, a spy, etc.) pick up a knack for using improvised weapons? Yes. Absolutely. Covert use of anything as a weapon makes perfect sense. But their existing subclasses can still pick that up via the Tavern Brawler Feat. A specific subclass for it isn't needed, IMO.
Could there be a better themed Feat than Tavern Brawler, to cover this? Yes. But it's usable, with some re-skin/re-fluff, for the above purposes.
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
I think the main way that it doesn't hold up is the same way Monks fall behind: magical unarmed strikes are necessary at higher levels.
Wizards promises to fix this for unarmed strikes .. but .. I wont believe it until we see it.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
This is the bigger problem for an improvised weapon subclass imo. When you can turn any object into a magical weapon, including mops and buckets and bottles and rubber balls, things get silly fast.
I think the “James Bond” (gadgeteer spy) spin on Improvised Weapons makes more sense as a Rogue or Artificer subclass than a Fighter subclass. I mean, the way the worded the Artifcer pretty much IS a gadgeteer.
And also: that is not at all what the name “Brawler” implies. Brawler implies brutish unarmed warrior. Like a Barbarian. Not a Boxer nor practically minded Martial Artist, nor a more mystically minded Martial Artist. The Brawler should be a Barbarian. The mystically minded Martial Artist is the Monk. The practically minded Martial Artist is yet to be addressed and should be a Fighter subclass. (and all three of these leave out the less single-minded Martial Artist, which is where the Fighting Style, or a comparable Feat, should be brought in).
I agree that revisions make more sense than absolute dropping of the idea. But what they really said (from what I recall) is not that it’s dead forever, but that it’s going to require so much revision and thought that it won’t make the 2024 PHB. It will be in a later document in the same way that the Artificer will be in a later document. That seems appropriate to me.
‘it’s not a gadgeteer spy concept, it’s the I broke out a max security facility with a pencil, a brick, and a shovel. It’s anything in my hands is a deadly weapon.
MacGyver (improvised devices) is still a gadgeteer concept.
What would be a best "from fiction" improvised weapon concept is (the movie version of) Jason Borne, who has used a book to kill someone, and a rolled up magazine in a knife fight. And he does excel at unarmed fighting, but he's not a brawler. I think the point of "improvised weapons CAN be a fit for the unarmed warrior" does have a case here, but it's still one where the Brawler subclass name makes more sense as a name for a Barbarian version of the subclass, and I ALSO don't think that Borne is a Fighter. IMO: he's a Rogue(Assassin) with a Soldier background. You could argue a few levels of Fighter as part of that Soldier background, but his extensive unarmed/improvised fighting knowledge came with his Assassin career, not his Solider career, IMO. You could do a Borne character as a straight up Soldier, Rogue(Assassin), with Tavern Brawler, and possibly Unarmed fighting style (for the extra damage). Not because he IS a tavern brawler, but because tavern brawler gives him what he needs to fill in the improvised weapons while still being an unmodified Assassin subclass. The only thing missing would be allowing his unarmed strikes to be finesse weapons (which, frankly, I think should always be a thing, or at least via the Unarmed fighting style -- the Monk's special should be using Wisdom for unarmed strikes, not Dex).
I don't see a compelling case for a Fighter subclass that is specialized around improvised weapons. They're all about mastery of formal weapons, IMO. A Fighter who does it as a secondary schtick? Pick up the Tavern Brawler Feat.
Could a Rogue (whether a criminal, a spy, etc.) pick up a knack for using improvised weapons? Yes. Absolutely. Covert use of anything as a weapon makes perfect sense. But their existing subclasses can still pick that up via the Tavern Brawler Feat. A specific subclass for it isn't needed, IMO.
Could there be a better themed Feat than Tavern Brawler, to cover this? Yes. But it's usable, with some re-skin/re-fluff, for the above purposes.
the thing is, being master of using any object as aweapon in creative ways, has to be a fighter as of onednd, because now masteries exist, and they are designed such that fighter benefits most from it, and they want to protect that niche, hence monk not getting any mastery, everyone else only getting two, etc.
Jason Bourne of one dnd, needs to be able to do things no one else can do with a knife like object, push with a book, slow with a pen. And they won't give a non fighter better mastery, or weapon versatility than fighter anymore.
I think the “James Bond” (gadgeteer spy) spin on Improvised Weapons makes more sense as a Rogue or Artificer subclass than a Fighter subclass. I mean, the way the worded the Artifcer pretty much IS a gadgeteer.
And also: that is not at all what the name “Brawler” implies. Brawler implies brutish unarmed warrior. Like a Barbarian. Not a Boxer nor practically minded Martial Artist, nor a more mystically minded Martial Artist. The Brawler should be a Barbarian. The mystically minded Martial Artist is the Monk. The practically minded Martial Artist is yet to be addressed and should be a Fighter subclass. (and all three of these leave out the less single-minded Martial Artist, which is where the Fighting Style, or a comparable Feat, should be brought in).
I agree that revisions make more sense than absolute dropping of the idea. But what they really said (from what I recall) is not that it’s dead forever, but that it’s going to require so much revision and thought that it won’t make the 2024 PHB. It will be in a later document in the same way that the Artificer will be in a later document. That seems appropriate to me.
‘it’s not a gadgeteer spy concept, it’s the I broke out a max security facility with a pencil, a brick, and a shovel. It’s anything in my hands is a deadly weapon.
MacGyver (improvised devices) is still a gadgeteer concept.
What would be a best "from fiction" improvised weapon concept is (the movie version of) Jason Borne, who has used a book to kill someone, and a rolled up magazine in a knife fight. And he does excel at unarmed fighting, but he's not a brawler. I think the point of "improvised weapons CAN be a fit for the unarmed warrior" does have a case here, but it's still one where the Brawler subclass name makes more sense as a name for a Barbarian version of the subclass, and I ALSO don't think that Borne is a Fighter. IMO: he's a Rogue(Assassin) with a Soldier background. You could argue a few levels of Fighter as part of that Soldier background, but his extensive unarmed/improvised fighting knowledge came with his Assassin career, not his Solider career, IMO. You could do a Borne character as a straight up Soldier, Rogue(Assassin), with Tavern Brawler, and possibly Unarmed fighting style (for the extra damage). Not because he IS a tavern brawler, but because tavern brawler gives him what he needs to fill in the improvised weapons while still being an unmodified Assassin subclass. The only thing missing would be allowing his unarmed strikes to be finesse weapons (which, frankly, I think should always be a thing, or at least via the Unarmed fighting style -- the Monk's special should be using Wisdom for unarmed strikes, not Dex).
I don't see a compelling case for a Fighter subclass that is specialized around improvised weapons. They're all about mastery of formal weapons, IMO. A Fighter who does it as a secondary schtick? Pick up the Tavern Brawler Feat.
Could a Rogue (whether a criminal, a spy, etc.) pick up a knack for using improvised weapons? Yes. Absolutely. Covert use of anything as a weapon makes perfect sense. But their existing subclasses can still pick that up via the Tavern Brawler Feat. A specific subclass for it isn't needed, IMO.
Could there be a better themed Feat than Tavern Brawler, to cover this? Yes. But it's usable, with some re-skin/re-fluff, for the above purposes.
the thing is, being master of using any object as aweapon in creative ways, has to be a fighter as of onednd, because now masteries exist, and they are designed such that fighter benefits most from it, and they want to protect that niche, hence monk not getting any mastery, everyone else only getting two, etc.
Jason Bourne of one dnd, needs to be able to do things no one else can do with a knife like object, push with a book, slow with a pen. And they won't give a non fighter better mastery, or weapon versatility than fighter anymore.
I see what you're saying, but the latest Pact of the Blade is already there: what ever weapon you create, you get its mastery. That's effectively being a master of every weapon.
Giving an option for the Weapon Mastery feat that lets you take it for Improvised Weapons (if you're proficient with Improvised Weapons) doesn't seem to be any more excessive than that.
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
I think the main way that it doesn't hold up is the same way Monks fall behind: magical unarmed strikes are necessary at higher levels.
Wizards promises to fix this for unarmed strikes .. but .. I wont believe it until we see it.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
stasis glove. created to manipulate exotic elements for a mystical forge, the glove can grip and put into stasis a solid rod of any liquid or sufficiently thick vapor the user would feel comfortable plunging their hand into. this includes water, fog, smoke, sand, and even fire. while gripped tightly, the material is cold to the touch and remains nearly invulnerable for 10 minutes. a magic hammer of equal or greater rarity to the glove could work the material similar to iron smithing. whichever material or item is gripped by the glove can be used as a magic longsword (blunt damage only), rod, or club with a bonus of +1/+2/+3 to attacks and damage, depending on the rarity of the glove.
note: gripping an immovable rod, whether deployed or inert, causes the rod to become slack as a rope.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
I think the main way that it doesn't hold up is the same way Monks fall behind: magical unarmed strikes are necessary at higher levels.
Wizards promises to fix this for unarmed strikes .. but .. I wont believe it until we see it.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
stasis glove. created to manipulate exotic elements for a mystical forge, the glove can grip and put into stasis a solid rod of any liquid or sufficiently thick vapor the user would feel comfortable plunging their hand into. this includes water, fog, smoke, sand, and even fire. while gripped tightly, the material is cold to the touch and remains nearly invulnerable for 10 minutes. a magic hammer of equal or greater rarity to the glove could work the material similar to iron smithing. whichever material or item is gripped by the glove can be used as a magic longsword (blunt damage only), rod, or club with a bonus of +1/+2/+3 to attacks and damage, depending on the rarity of the glove.
note: gripping an immovable rod, whether deployed or inert, causes the rod to become slack as a rope.
Doesn't "used as a magic longsword" mean this is not a true improvised weapon, but a reskinned weapon (the thing about using a common item as its most comparable weapon, as opposed to needing proficiency with an improvised weapon that doesn't match a regular weapon)?
And ... what's this from, exactly?
It does remind me of the "Gauntlets of Flaming Fury" which make any weapon you're wielding (no stated disqualification for improvised weapons) into a magical weapon. And, once per day, they can do extra fire damage. It's a good basis for an improvised weaponeer who can keep up with the need for magic weapons (just without bonuses). Variations for other elements would be interesting, and having their rarity scale up a bonus would be good. (my only complaint about this magic item was that it does't work with unarmed strikes).
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
I think the main way that it doesn't hold up is the same way Monks fall behind: magical unarmed strikes are necessary at higher levels.
Wizards promises to fix this for unarmed strikes .. but .. I wont believe it until we see it.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
stasis glove. created to manipulate exotic elements for a mystical forge, the glove can grip and put into stasis a solid rod of any liquid or sufficiently thick vapor the user would feel comfortable plunging their hand into. this includes water, fog, smoke, sand, and even fire. while gripped tightly, the material is cold to the touch and remains nearly invulnerable for 10 minutes. a magic hammer of equal or greater rarity to the glove could work the material similar to iron smithing. whichever material or item is gripped by the glove can be used as a magic longsword (blunt damage only), rod, or club with a bonus of +1/+2/+3 to attacks and damage, depending on the rarity of the glove.
note: gripping an immovable rod, whether deployed or inert, causes the rod to become slack as a rope.
Doesn't "used as a magic longsword" mean this is not a true improvised weapon, but a reskinned weapon (the thing about using a common item as its most comparable weapon, as opposed to needing proficiency with an improvised weapon that doesn't match a regular weapon)?
And ... what's this from, exactly?
It does remind me of the "Gauntlets of Flaming Fury" which make any weapon you're wielding (no stated disqualification for improvised weapons) into a magical weapon. And, once per day, they can do extra fire damage. It's a good basis for an improvised weaponeer who can keep up with the need for magic weapons (just without bonuses). Variations for other elements would be interesting, and having their rarity scale up a bonus would be good. (my only complaint about this magic item was that it does't work with unarmed strikes).
i just thought it up. it needs more downside, probably a 1 minute limit. but you could pick up a candlestick, a rope, a plucked chicken and have a magic weapon. could you pick up a chair? yes, but it might shatter to pieces except for one leg. is that not okay? i suppose instead of 'longsword' i could have said it can be treated as a versatile weapon but then i'd have to name some dice. more people would be interested in that and the magic and stuff than whether the weapon being improvised is using improvised weapon rules.
so, is that a magic item that increases use of improvised weapons? not by that description, the one i just made up on the spot and forgot to patent (whoops!). but is it a magic item which would benefit anyone, up to and including improvised weapons users? sure. well, anyone but unarmed strikers. unless we wanted to go on to write that the user could clinch a fist in the material and come out with a glob of spikey-solid frozen stuff covering their now-magical knuckles.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
90% of Brawler was spent just getting it back to vaguely competitive with a base Fighter using weapons; what little it did that was interesting could (and should) be rolled into Grappler and/or Tavern Brawler so anybody can take it, alongside the unarmed fighting style being added to base fighting styles.
Because that way you can build your own brawler using any class and sub-class of your choice, so you can be a brawling battle master etc., which is an infinitely superior way to do it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
This is the bigger problem for an improvised weapon subclass imo. When you can turn any object into a magical weapon, including mops and buckets and bottles and rubber balls, things get silly fast.
There is already Gauntlets of Flaming Fury that add magic fire damage to any weapon you are holding. That concept could easily be built upon for improvised weapon fighters, and you could easily add a "MacGyver" feat that let's you combine objects on the fly do more interesting things.
E.g. hit someone with a jar of something sticky and everyone has Adv to grapple them, hit someone with a container of boiling liquid for +1d4 fire damage, cover your mop in salt or hot pepper to potentially blind them on a hit....
Plus the base class could get some more interesting ways to combine grappling & improvised weapons. e.g. ripping out a creature's tooth and then stabbing them with it, wrestling moves that deal damage when the creature is knocked prone, ability to throw a grappled creature against a wall to deal damage to them etc...
90% of Brawler was spent just getting it back to vaguely competitive with a base Fighter using weapons; what little it did that was interesting could (and should) be rolled into Grappler and/or Tavern Brawler so anybody can take it, alongside the unarmed fighting style being added to base fighting styles.
Because that way you can build your own brawler using any class and sub-class of your choice, so you can be a brawling battle master etc., which is an infinitely superior way to do it.
not going to happen. WOTC values a feat at 1 mastery. (weapon master)
they will never give multiple masteries selection on one weapon type, mastery swapping before each attack, or two masteries at the same time via feats. those are each multiple times better than a single mastery.
maybe they give proficiency with improvised weapons.
But thats not enough anymore, a weapon without a feat is now like half a weapon. Monk only kinda works because subclasses usually give some type of demi mastery to unarmed. And even that... they are skirting the edge. So now you need improvised + mastery for using improvised weapons to be competitive with real weaps.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
This is the bigger problem for an improvised weapon subclass imo. When you can turn any object into a magical weapon, including mops and buckets and bottles and rubber balls, things get silly fast.
There is already Gauntlets of Flaming Fury that add magic fire damage to any weapon you are holding. That concept could easily be built upon for improvised weapon fighters, and you could easily add a "MacGyver" feat that let's you combine objects on the fly do more interesting things.
E.g. hit someone with a jar of something sticky and everyone has Adv to grapple them, hit someone with a container of boiling liquid for +1d4 fire damage, cover your mop in salt or hot pepper to potentially blind them on a hit....
Plus the base class could get some more interesting ways to combine grappling & improvised weapons. e.g. ripping out a creature's tooth and then stabbing them with it, wrestling moves that deal damage when the creature is knocked prone, ability to throw a grappled creature against a wall to deal damage to them etc...
i'm upvote-curious, but squeamish about the 'easily's above.
somehow i'm reminded of the Scarred Man from the anime Full Metal Alchemist. the magic in that series was taboo to his people yet here he was with a grafted-on arm full of magic that was really good at killing magic guys. whether subclass or feat(s), it would be interesting to play a character with a super arm/finger/glove/prosthesis that could maybe grapple/grip/restrain better, occasionally absorb spell effects and punch them back, rarely dispel an ongoing effect, maybe a late-late game once-a-day melee range disintegrate, etc. tack on a touch countercharm , a few free counterspell while grappling, and some benefit to improvised weapons and you'd have a cool brawler with more reason to exist than just being 'the unarmed option' in whatever class.
Fighters aren't magical, those would certainly make good magic items -
e.g. Spellbreaker Gauntlets : While attuned to this gauntlets you can touch the two gauntlets together to release a burst of energy that can disrupt magical effects, you cast Dispel Magic using constitution as your spellcasting modifier. Once used in this way you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Depending on the direction you want to go in, you could have the brawler do any of the following:
Wrestler (3rd level) : Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 +STR damage on a hit, you can grapple as a bonus action when you hit with an unarmed strike on your turn, once per turn you can replace one of your attacks with slamming a creature you are grappling into another creature within your reach or into an object/the ground. The target makes a STR saving throw taking 4d6+STR damage on a fail or half as much on a success. If you slam the creature into another creature or object the other creature / object takes the same damage.
You can use one Weapon Mastery of your choice when you make an Unarmed strike.
Improviser (3rd level) : You can use any object that you can lift (based on your carrying capacity) as an improvised weapon. If the item is enchanted it deals magical damage when used in this way. The object deals 1d6+STR bludgeoning damage on a hit, or damage equal to a simple or martial weapon that it most resembles. If you are holding the object in one hand you can make one attack with another one-handed improvised weapon as a bonus action.
Creative Improvisation (7th level) Certain types of improvised weapons grant special abilities:
Powders : any container filled with a fine powder such as sand, salt, or flour. The first time you hit on an attack with this item the target must make a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of their next turn.
Flames : any object that includes a lit flame such as a lantern, candle, or torch. Each time you hit a target with this item they take an additional 1d4 fire damage.
Sticky : any object that is filled with or covered by a sticky substance such as jars of honey, tar, or resin. The first time you hit a target with this item they must make a Dexterity saving throw or have disadvantage on all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws that use Dexterity.
Wet : any object that is filled with liquid such as a tankard of ale, or a bowl of soup. The first time you hit on an attack with this item the target must make a Dexterity saving throw on a failure all fire damage they deal before the end of their next turn is halved.
Brawler : (10th level) Your unarmed attacks deal 1d10 damage on a hit, and you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action.
Pin : (10th level)
You can attempt a grapple a creature that is already grappled by you, on a success the target is restrained rather than just grappled.
Alternatively, if you hit a creature with a rope-like improvised weapon (e.g. rope, chain, wire) you can forgo dealing damage to instead grapple & restrain the target. You must be within 5ft of the target and it must be of a size you could normally grapple to use this ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I like the idea of a 'Anything can be a Weapon' Master subclass. I'm not 100% convinced that was Wizard's goal for Brawler, as it seems like it was ... unfocused, if that was the end point they were reaching for. It definitely needed a better name than 'Brawler' if that was true.
The idea is nice on the abstract/cosmetic level, but it's hard to support in a way that isn't already covered by a DM being willing to be flexible with what items are close enough to use weapon stats. Plus as I mentioned it is a significant kneecap for Fighters to not be using magic weapons, particularly once you get into tier 3 and their base 3 attacks per round really start making on-hit effects work for them.
Anything can be a weapon, includes your body, so they needed grapple and unarmed. Like James bond/true lies schwarzenegger isn't doing d1 unarmed fighting.
But it was the goal, in my previous post I linked the UA class description, it was literally about physical skill and anything being a deadly weapon. Crawford also mentioned it in the video when talking about its identity.
I think they just had a different concept of 'brawler' In 5e people would use tavern brawler to try to force the archetype. They wanted to limit the scope of tavern brawler, but build a sub class that makes better use of the concepts. They saw the tavern brawler as a highly adaptable person who uses anything in a fight. The world saw the title 'brawler' as a master pugilist foremost, even if the class was clearly not about that. (the only unarmed thing it got was a free FS really)
Just add a monk subclass with proficiency in improvised weapons and the option to use strength over Dex in their calculations and you have your brawler. If the whole central identity of monks is being able to fight while unarmored and unarmed anywhere any time it seems to fit better than with the fighter who is all about walking around as the armored and heavily armed tank.
well the messaging was definitely off, because almost everyone thinks brawler was supposed to be a monk hybrid, when that wasn't the design
I found Brawler considerably uninspiring. With Barbarians, other Fighters, and even Paladins now getting support for the strength-based unarmed fighter archetype, an entire subclass that does little more than duplicate Unarmed Fighting Style and Tavern Brawler felt like a waste to me. Could it have been salvaged, maybe, but speaking personally I still would have probably had more fun making an unarmed Battlemaster, Berserker/Wildheart, or Glory Paladin.
My concern, although I liked the idea, was that if Improvised Weapons was supposed to be the core feature it just wouldn't hold up over time. Similar to Bladesinger, who can do pretty well for a melee character, but at higher levels it just seems you would be best served ditching the melee and just be a wizard. Even with the damage die bump it just seems like the "I pick up the chair and hit them with it. I pick up the statuette and hit them with it" might just not keep up with an actual weapon build. I guess it would have all depended on what magic items they would create to support IW fighting. I get the more versatile use of masteries that Brawler had, but that was pretty much the only thing going for them and I'm not sure it was enough.
I do hope they take another look at it for a future book though.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
MacGyver (improvised devices) is still a gadgeteer concept.
What would be a best "from fiction" improvised weapon concept is (the movie version of) Jason Borne, who has used a book to kill someone, and a rolled up magazine in a knife fight. And he does excel at unarmed fighting, but he's not a brawler. I think the point of "improvised weapons CAN be a fit for the unarmed warrior" does have a case here, but it's still one where the Brawler subclass name makes more sense as a name for a Barbarian version of the subclass, and I ALSO don't think that Borne is a Fighter. IMO: he's a Rogue(Assassin) with a Soldier background. You could argue a few levels of Fighter as part of that Soldier background, but his extensive unarmed/improvised fighting knowledge came with his Assassin career, not his Solider career, IMO. You could do a Borne character as a straight up Soldier, Rogue(Assassin), with Tavern Brawler, and possibly Unarmed fighting style (for the extra damage). Not because he IS a tavern brawler, but because tavern brawler gives him what he needs to fill in the improvised weapons while still being an unmodified Assassin subclass. The only thing missing would be allowing his unarmed strikes to be finesse weapons (which, frankly, I think should always be a thing, or at least via the Unarmed fighting style -- the Monk's special should be using Wisdom for unarmed strikes, not Dex).
I don't see a compelling case for a Fighter subclass that is specialized around improvised weapons. They're all about mastery of formal weapons, IMO. A Fighter who does it as a secondary schtick? Pick up the Tavern Brawler Feat.
Could a Rogue (whether a criminal, a spy, etc.) pick up a knack for using improvised weapons? Yes. Absolutely. Covert use of anything as a weapon makes perfect sense. But their existing subclasses can still pick that up via the Tavern Brawler Feat. A specific subclass for it isn't needed, IMO.
Could there be a better themed Feat than Tavern Brawler, to cover this? Yes. But it's usable, with some re-skin/re-fluff, for the above purposes.
I think the main way that it doesn't hold up is the same way Monks fall behind: magical unarmed strikes are necessary at higher levels.
Wizards promises to fix this for unarmed strikes .. but .. I wont believe it until we see it.
But ... how do you do magical improvised weapons? That chair leg just happens to be a +1 weapon? what?
Wraps of Unarmed Prowess
This is the bigger problem for an improvised weapon subclass imo. When you can turn any object into a magical weapon, including mops and buckets and bottles and rubber balls, things get silly fast.
the thing is, being master of using any object as aweapon in creative ways, has to be a fighter as of onednd, because now masteries exist, and they are designed such that fighter benefits most from it, and they want to protect that niche, hence monk not getting any mastery, everyone else only getting two, etc.
Jason Bourne of one dnd, needs to be able to do things no one else can do with a knife like object, push with a book, slow with a pen. And they won't give a non fighter better mastery, or weapon versatility than fighter anymore.
I see what you're saying, but the latest Pact of the Blade is already there: what ever weapon you create, you get its mastery. That's effectively being a master of every weapon.
Giving an option for the Weapon Mastery feat that lets you take it for Improvised Weapons (if you're proficient with Improvised Weapons) doesn't seem to be any more excessive than that.
stasis glove. created to manipulate exotic elements for a mystical forge, the glove can grip and put into stasis a solid rod of any liquid or sufficiently thick vapor the user would feel comfortable plunging their hand into. this includes water, fog, smoke, sand, and even fire. while gripped tightly, the material is cold to the touch and remains nearly invulnerable for 10 minutes. a magic hammer of equal or greater rarity to the glove could work the material similar to iron smithing. whichever material or item is gripped by the glove can be used as a magic longsword (blunt damage only), rod, or club with a bonus of +1/+2/+3 to attacks and damage, depending on the rarity of the glove.
note: gripping an immovable rod, whether deployed or inert, causes the rod to become slack as a rope.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Doesn't "used as a magic longsword" mean this is not a true improvised weapon, but a reskinned weapon (the thing about using a common item as its most comparable weapon, as opposed to needing proficiency with an improvised weapon that doesn't match a regular weapon)?
And ... what's this from, exactly?
It does remind me of the "Gauntlets of Flaming Fury" which make any weapon you're wielding (no stated disqualification for improvised weapons) into a magical weapon. And, once per day, they can do extra fire damage. It's a good basis for an improvised weaponeer who can keep up with the need for magic weapons (just without bonuses). Variations for other elements would be interesting, and having their rarity scale up a bonus would be good. (my only complaint about this magic item was that it does't work with unarmed strikes).
i just thought it up. it needs more downside, probably a 1 minute limit. but you could pick up a candlestick, a rope, a plucked chicken and have a magic weapon. could you pick up a chair? yes, but it might shatter to pieces except for one leg. is that not okay? i suppose instead of 'longsword' i could have said it can be treated as a versatile weapon but then i'd have to name some dice. more people would be interested in that and the magic and stuff than whether the weapon being improvised is using improvised weapon rules.
so, is that a magic item that increases use of improvised weapons? not by that description, the one i just made up on the spot and forgot to patent (whoops!). but is it a magic item which would benefit anyone, up to and including improvised weapons users? sure. well, anyone but unarmed strikers. unless we wanted to go on to write that the user could clinch a fist in the material and come out with a glob of spikey-solid frozen stuff covering their now-magical knuckles.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
90% of Brawler was spent just getting it back to vaguely competitive with a base Fighter using weapons; what little it did that was interesting could (and should) be rolled into Grappler and/or Tavern Brawler so anybody can take it, alongside the unarmed fighting style being added to base fighting styles.
Because that way you can build your own brawler using any class and sub-class of your choice, so you can be a brawling battle master etc., which is an infinitely superior way to do it.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
There is already Gauntlets of Flaming Fury that add magic fire damage to any weapon you are holding. That concept could easily be built upon for improvised weapon fighters, and you could easily add a "MacGyver" feat that let's you combine objects on the fly do more interesting things.
E.g. hit someone with a jar of something sticky and everyone has Adv to grapple them, hit someone with a container of boiling liquid for +1d4 fire damage, cover your mop in salt or hot pepper to potentially blind them on a hit....
Plus the base class could get some more interesting ways to combine grappling & improvised weapons. e.g. ripping out a creature's tooth and then stabbing them with it, wrestling moves that deal damage when the creature is knocked prone, ability to throw a grappled creature against a wall to deal damage to them etc...
not going to happen. WOTC values a feat at 1 mastery. (weapon master)
they will never give multiple masteries selection on one weapon type, mastery swapping before each attack, or two masteries at the same time via feats. those are each multiple times better than a single mastery.
maybe they give proficiency with improvised weapons.
But thats not enough anymore, a weapon without a feat is now like half a weapon. Monk only kinda works because subclasses usually give some type of demi mastery to unarmed. And even that... they are skirting the edge. So now you need improvised + mastery for using improvised weapons to be competitive with real weaps.
i'm upvote-curious, but squeamish about the 'easily's above.
somehow i'm reminded of the Scarred Man from the anime Full Metal Alchemist. the magic in that series was taboo to his people yet here he was with a grafted-on arm full of magic that was really good at killing magic guys. whether subclass or feat(s), it would be interesting to play a character with a super arm/finger/glove/prosthesis that could maybe grapple/grip/restrain better, occasionally absorb spell effects and punch them back, rarely dispel an ongoing effect, maybe a late-late game once-a-day melee range disintegrate, etc. tack on a touch countercharm , a few free counterspell while grappling, and some benefit to improvised weapons and you'd have a cool brawler with more reason to exist than just being 'the unarmed option' in whatever class.
cool 'misunderstood' villain, anyway.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Fighters aren't magical, those would certainly make good magic items -
e.g. Spellbreaker Gauntlets : While attuned to this gauntlets you can touch the two gauntlets together to release a burst of energy that can disrupt magical effects, you cast Dispel Magic using constitution as your spellcasting modifier. Once used in this way you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.
Depending on the direction you want to go in, you could have the brawler do any of the following:
Wrestler (3rd level) : Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 +STR damage on a hit, you can grapple as a bonus action when you hit with an unarmed strike on your turn, once per turn you can replace one of your attacks with slamming a creature you are grappling into another creature within your reach or into an object/the ground. The target makes a STR saving throw taking 4d6+STR damage on a fail or half as much on a success. If you slam the creature into another creature or object the other creature / object takes the same damage.
Improviser (3rd level) : You can use any object that you can lift (based on your carrying capacity) as an improvised weapon. If the item is enchanted it deals magical damage when used in this way. The object deals 1d6+STR bludgeoning damage on a hit, or damage equal to a simple or martial weapon that it most resembles. If you are holding the object in one hand you can make one attack with another one-handed improvised weapon as a bonus action.
Creative Improvisation
(7th level) Certain types of improvised weapons grant special abilities:
Brawler : (10th level) Your unarmed attacks deal 1d10 damage on a hit, and you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action.
Pin : (10th level)
You can attempt a grapple a creature that is already grappled by you, on a success the target is restrained rather than just grappled.
Alternatively, if you hit a creature with a rope-like improvised weapon (e.g. rope, chain, wire) you can forgo dealing damage to instead grapple & restrain the target. You must be within 5ft of the target and it must be of a size you could normally grapple to use this ability.