I know what I want from the subclass, but now I’m at a point were I can accept just getting what I need out of the subclass to make it playable for me.
For me I need the subclass to be shifter focused. I need it to be about using Wildshape in combat. I need it to be a melee focused combatant. I need it to spend spell slots while in Wild Shape to improve its attack, defense, or survivability.
What do you need from the next Moon Druid playtest to make it playable for you?
For me the subclass is fine, the only issue remaining is wild shape itself (and by extension, Circle Forms.) Everything else, from retaining your armor to the limited casting to the moonblinky stuff is all good in my eyes.
Combat Wildshape needs a little more oomph. Bare minimum I'd say it needs to be able to hit more consistently, which means using the druid's Spell To Hit for Wildshape attacks or at least using the druid's proficiency bonus.
I'd also consider it a pretty big flavor fail if they kept the way the AC is done currently. Using the druid's AC turns your Primal Order choice into a trap for new players and further incentivizes the druid to wear the heaviest armor possible, which clashes with the usual druid aesthetic. Whether they do Beast AC + WIS or Beast AC + Porf Bonus or just standardize it to 12+WIS or something I don't really care that much.
I really dislike the random moon powers they threw into the class and think they fundamentally misunderstood what players were asking for when they said the elemental wild shape didn't mesh with the subclass theme, but I guess it'd be... Tolerable if kept as-is. I'd probably have to ask my DM if I can swap out Moonbeam for something else or reflavor it though. My Lizardfolk druid who turns into big dinosaurs doesn't mesh with weird lunar spells. I would much, much prefer features that enhance our shapeshifting further like Thousand Forms or that cool Alternating Forms feature from UA4 that let druids shift between beast and caster form without expending Wildshape uses.
What I need out of Moon Druid, is for their combat wildshape to be at least as powerful as the Beastmaster Ranger's beast companion. TBH, I'd be satisfied (though not excited) if they just used the same templates as Beastmaster Ranger's beast companion and added them as options for Moon Druid as part of their Combat Wildshape. If that's not going to happen, then I want full spellcasting while in wildshape, so I can at least be an effective druid, if I can't be an effective martial.
Honestly, what they should do is print like 20 or so revised Beast stat blocks with the next UA so we can gauge how the MM changes they’ve talked about affect performance. It’s hard to tell just what needs tuned on Combat Wildshape when we don’t know what the new options will be, exactly.
Honestly, what they should do is print like 20 or so revised Beast stat blocks with the next UA so we can gauge how the MM changes they’ve talked about affect performance. It’s hard to tell just what needs tuned on Combat Wildshape when we don’t know what the new options will be, exactly.
This is very true. Right now we're kind'a trying to balance it blind assuming there won't be any CR4-6 creatures added. The biggest buff Moon Druid needs are maybe 2-3 new beast forms at each CR level of 4 or higher. A CR6 equivalent of, say, Giant Scorpion would change the balance at higher levels considerably.
For all we know there could be a CR6 Charcharodontosaurus in the new Monster Manual with Pounce and some kind of Frenzy ability that mimics Barbarian rage.
Honestly, what they should do is print like 20 or so revised Beast stat blocks with the next UA so we can gauge how the MM changes they’ve talked about affect performance. It’s hard to tell just what needs tuned on Combat Wildshape when we don’t know what the new options will be, exactly.
This is very true. Right now we're kind'a trying to balance it blind assuming there won't be any CR4-6 creatures added. The biggest buff Moon Druid needs are maybe 2-3 new beast forms at each CR level of 4 or higher. A CR6 equivalent of, say, Giant Scorpion would change the balance at higher levels considerably.
For all we know there could be a CR6 Charcharodontosaurus in the new Monster Manual with Pounce and some kind of Frenzy ability that mimics Barbarian rage.
True, though I'd expand that range to CR3+ because even Giant Scorpion is kind of terrible because it has only a +4 to hit, when your allies have a +9 to hit.
Would it be easier for them to give Moon Druids a template they could attach to monster stat blocks. Or maybe just make all the monster stat block attacks using the Druid’s spell attack and spell save DC instead of any of the stat block DC.
Would it be easier for them to give Moon Druids a template they could attach to monster stat blocks. Or maybe just make all the monster stat block attacks using the Druid’s spell attack and spell save DC instead of any of the stat block DC.
I like the idea of just adding the WIS mod to the attacks and saves, though like I said it partly depends how the blocks look. There’s a CR 3 beast in Bigby’s with +8 to hit for 2d8 + 6 and a charge effect with a DC of 16 for prone, with Pack Tactics as well. That’s about the same ballpark for attack rolls and DC for a level 9 PC. If we get more blocks like that, then I’m not sure we need to stack extra modifiers to the attacks.
One reason to use templates instead of monster stat blocks is because monster stat blocks are all over the place for power. I would rather use (good) templates than real monster stat blocks, because it means those templates can be balanced against one another and designed to scale -- I don't see a reason why someone who likes to turn into a wolf at level 2 can't still be turning into a (much more impressive) wolf at level 20, but as it is... hope you like turning into a mammoth, because there aren't any other CR 6 beasts.
One reason to use templates instead of monster stat blocks is because monster stat blocks are all over the place for power. I would rather use (good) templates than real monster stat blocks, because it means those templates can be balanced against one another and designed to scale -- I don't see a reason why someone who likes to turn into a wolf at level 2 can't still be turning into a (much more impressive) wolf at level 20, but as it is... hope you like turning into a mammoth, because there aren't any other CR 6 beasts.
Because the entire appeal of Wildshape is the diversity of options; being forced to play one of 3 very generic options defeats the entire point. The solution to what you’re describing is to make several more CR 6 beasts.
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
Also, maybe it would be in moon druid's best interest to just limit them to CR 1 beasts, but buff those beasts based on level. Higher CR beasts aren't that great and CR 1 has a good deal of variety.
I also agree that having moon druids being more like shifters is kind of neat. Not that I disliked the moon based spells to begin with. I think the theming makes more sense.
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
I think that was the purpose of the first Druid playtest's pre-set wildshape templates. I know they weren't popular, but I think they were the correct direction to take. The concept should be refined instead of discarded, IMO.
Because the entire appeal of Wildshape is the diversity of options; being forced to play one of 3 very generic options defeats the entire point. The solution to what you’re describing is to make several more CR 6 beasts.
That's why I specified good templates. It does need more templates (or a very complicated template).
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
I think that was the purpose of the first Druid playtest's pre-set wildshape templates. I know they weren't popular, but I think they were the correct direction to take. The concept should be refined instead of discarded, IMO.
That's honestly been a problem as I see it with this playtest. There's been a lot of good ideas that they have come up with that were steps in the right direction, but not nearly there yet. Feedback is negative, and the idea scrapped rather than refined. Not having seen the feedback, I don't know if they got the impression that things were bad ideas or if they were unsatisfied with the implementation more than the idea itself.
That said, I think they caved a bit too easily on some ideas that would have made the game better, but were unpopular decisions. I think some feedback has been given as negative because it was different, rather than necessarily bad and that WOTC should have ripped the bandaid off and said, we know this choice is unpopular, but we think this will make the game better, and will be more accepted over time.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What if they do both. So all druids keep the U6 version of Wildshape and Moon Druid gets both UA6 minus the moonlight magic stuff and gets 5 templates, the crawler (spider climb, poison), the pouncer (pounce, pack tactics), the charger (charge, high movement speed), the swimmer (amphibious, swim speed), the flyer (fly speed). With each template granting different stats and abilities depending on if you choose to be a tiny, small, medium, large, or huge form. So those 5 templates is really 25 templates. That would mean while most druids were stuck only having 5 known forms a Moon Druid would have 5 known normal beast and 5 templates at level 8. With the templates they could look like normal beast or chimeras. Really just player choice. This means when you need a specific feature of a beast you can have that beast as a known form and when you just want something that is 100% better balanced as a combat form you use template to be whatever beast you imagine matches the template. The templates would need to be solid for this to work.
I think Circle Of The Moon is almost to a point I'd be ok with, it just needs a few tweaks. I don't like the way they do the AC "boost", like others have said it makes choosing Warden for your Primal Order almost mandatory. I would rather see either a set bonus to the creature's AC(that perhaps increases at higher levels) or a simpler way would be just adding your Wisdom modifier to the creature's AC. I would also like to see them able to use their Spell Attack Bonus for the creature's attacks, and their Spell Save DC for any abilities the creature has that force a Saving Throw(like wolves knocking targets prone). Give me those, and I think I'd be willing to sign off on the new Circle Of The Moon.
While I am strongly against using templates for Wildshape as a whole the idea of Moon Druid having Combat Wildshape at level 3 and then gaining a template-based Wildshape at level 6 or 10 isn't too offensive to me, depending on how it's flavored and so long as I don't lose the versatility and fun of using the actual beast statblocks.
I'd probably theme it as invoking a benevolent form of lycanthropy. You draw on the transformative powers of the moon to achieve a more supernatural transformation, but due to your connection to nature, you don't lose your sense of self. You become a thinking werecreature who is devoted to safeguarding the land from trespassers.
You get one combat template with a bunch of options to customize it to suit whatever beast you want your form to be. You can flavor it however you want. Either a straight-up werebeast or just a dire beast or even some chimeric creature. The choices you make to the form are permanent additions like a Warlock's invocations, so each Moon Druid's werebeast form is unique.
This way there'd be a single strong, supernatural wildshape purely for combat while the Moon Druid still has a robust number of wildshapes for other things like turning into a giant eagle or quetzalcoatlus for air travel or turning into a mammoth or brontosaurus when they just need to be really, really big.
All that said though, it'd be simpler to just buff Combat Wildshape enough that it is usable on its own.
I like the idea of just adding the WIS mod to the attacks and saves, though like I said it partly depends how the blocks look. There’s a CR 3 beast in Bigby’s with +8 to hit for 2d8 + 6 and a charge effect with a DC of 16 for prone, with Pack Tactics as well. That’s about the same ballpark for attack rolls and DC for a level 9 PC. If we get more blocks like that, then I’m not sure we need to stack extra modifiers to the attacks.
This could be resolved by a simple "Choose the highest" clause. Use the druid's Spell To Hit if it is higher. Use the beast's attack mod if it is higher. That way all the beasts that aren't better designed are still functional.
And since Wildshape uses the druid's HP, AC is scaled in some way, and the beast form can use the druid's Spell To Hit all they need to do is come up with a way to keep the beast form's damage relative to higher CR and you can use your Dire Wolf form alongside your friend who's turning into a mammoth and can expect similar but different performance.
Maybe add 1D8 more damage to one attack for every CR level above the beast's CR your max CR is at. So if you're level 20 your Dire Wolf gets +5D8 (Since you can achieve CR 6 and it is only CR1) and is hitting for a total of 2D6+3+5D8 = 29 while your mammoth friend is dealing 4D10+7 = 27 when standing. Dire Wolf also gets Pack Tactics and knocks enemies prone on hit while the mammoth can deal + 4D8 + 7 = 50 on a charge.
This isn't including the extra 2D8 from Primal Strike since both would also get that.
Assuming save DC scales with Spell Save as well the dire wolf form would still be functional at higher levels due to constant Advantage and knocking enemies prone for allies to also get Advantage.
I know what I want from the subclass, but now I’m at a point were I can accept just getting what I need out of the subclass to make it playable for me.
For me I need the subclass to be shifter focused. I need it to be about using Wildshape in combat. I need it to be a melee focused combatant. I need it to spend spell slots while in Wild Shape to improve its attack, defense, or survivability.
What do you need from the next Moon Druid playtest to make it playable for you?
I’m in somewhat of agreement here. Allow them to use spell attack modifier, an AC boost (beast AC + something?), expend spell slots to boost damage if you want some extra power. Maybe a baseline scaling of damage based on CR so if you are using a CR 2 less than your max you get a boost. So you can play a wolf all the way to 20 if you want or diversify your beast shapes as you gain access to higher CRs. If you are tiny beast you don’t get the damage increases or it’s half damage (tiny more for utility and not a kitten doing massive damage). I do kind of like the last version of picking known shapes.
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
Also, maybe it would be in moon druid's best interest to just limit them to CR 1 beasts, but buff those beasts based on level. Higher CR beasts aren't that great and CR 1 has a good deal of variety.
I know I'm the lone voice in this, but I still am a proponent of wild shape NOT conveying the beast's hit points as a buff to the druid.
Mammoth is NOT the only CR 6 beast available. The giant ape is there, as is the t-rex, and the giant crab, both of which have more hit points than the mammoth. In addition, the sperm whale is available when the druid is in the ocean.
When the moon druid has UNLIMITED wild shapes available, this pool of hit point buffs means they're unkillable. And despite what most here seem to think, it's easily abused at lower levels as well.
So the biggest thing I NEED from the druid - especially the moon druid - is the change to wild shape hit points we've seen in previous UAs.
I know what I want from the subclass, but now I’m at a point were I can accept just getting what I need out of the subclass to make it playable for me.
For me I need the subclass to be shifter focused. I need it to be about using Wildshape in combat. I need it to be a melee focused combatant. I need it to spend spell slots while in Wild Shape to improve its attack, defense, or survivability.
What do you need from the next Moon Druid playtest to make it playable for you?
For me the subclass is fine, the only issue remaining is wild shape itself (and by extension, Circle Forms.) Everything else, from retaining your armor to the limited casting to the moonblinky stuff is all good in my eyes.
Combat Wildshape needs a little more oomph. Bare minimum I'd say it needs to be able to hit more consistently, which means using the druid's Spell To Hit for Wildshape attacks or at least using the druid's proficiency bonus.
I'd also consider it a pretty big flavor fail if they kept the way the AC is done currently. Using the druid's AC turns your Primal Order choice into a trap for new players and further incentivizes the druid to wear the heaviest armor possible, which clashes with the usual druid aesthetic. Whether they do Beast AC + WIS or Beast AC + Porf Bonus or just standardize it to 12+WIS or something I don't really care that much.
I really dislike the random moon powers they threw into the class and think they fundamentally misunderstood what players were asking for when they said the elemental wild shape didn't mesh with the subclass theme, but I guess it'd be... Tolerable if kept as-is. I'd probably have to ask my DM if I can swap out Moonbeam for something else or reflavor it though. My Lizardfolk druid who turns into big dinosaurs doesn't mesh with weird lunar spells. I would much, much prefer features that enhance our shapeshifting further like Thousand Forms or that cool Alternating Forms feature from UA4 that let druids shift between beast and caster form without expending Wildshape uses.
What I need out of Moon Druid, is for their combat wildshape to be at least as powerful as the Beastmaster Ranger's beast companion. TBH, I'd be satisfied (though not excited) if they just used the same templates as Beastmaster Ranger's beast companion and added them as options for Moon Druid as part of their Combat Wildshape. If that's not going to happen, then I want full spellcasting while in wildshape, so I can at least be an effective druid, if I can't be an effective martial.
Honestly, what they should do is print like 20 or so revised Beast stat blocks with the next UA so we can gauge how the MM changes they’ve talked about affect performance. It’s hard to tell just what needs tuned on Combat Wildshape when we don’t know what the new options will be, exactly.
This is very true. Right now we're kind'a trying to balance it blind assuming there won't be any CR4-6 creatures added. The biggest buff Moon Druid needs are maybe 2-3 new beast forms at each CR level of 4 or higher. A CR6 equivalent of, say, Giant Scorpion would change the balance at higher levels considerably.
For all we know there could be a CR6 Charcharodontosaurus in the new Monster Manual with Pounce and some kind of Frenzy ability that mimics Barbarian rage.
True, though I'd expand that range to CR3+ because even Giant Scorpion is kind of terrible because it has only a +4 to hit, when your allies have a +9 to hit.
Would it be easier for them to give Moon Druids a template they could attach to monster stat blocks. Or maybe just make all the monster stat block attacks using the Druid’s spell attack and spell save DC instead of any of the stat block DC.
I like the idea of just adding the WIS mod to the attacks and saves, though like I said it partly depends how the blocks look. There’s a CR 3 beast in Bigby’s with +8 to hit for 2d8 + 6 and a charge effect with a DC of 16 for prone, with Pack Tactics as well. That’s about the same ballpark for attack rolls and DC for a level 9 PC. If we get more blocks like that, then I’m not sure we need to stack extra modifiers to the attacks.
One reason to use templates instead of monster stat blocks is because monster stat blocks are all over the place for power. I would rather use (good) templates than real monster stat blocks, because it means those templates can be balanced against one another and designed to scale -- I don't see a reason why someone who likes to turn into a wolf at level 2 can't still be turning into a (much more impressive) wolf at level 20, but as it is... hope you like turning into a mammoth, because there aren't any other CR 6 beasts.
Because the entire appeal of Wildshape is the diversity of options; being forced to play one of 3 very generic options defeats the entire point. The solution to what you’re describing is to make several more CR 6 beasts.
Moon druids need to be limited to beasts in the player's hand book. Player's really shouldn't be flipping through the monster manual as they are built as DM side books. It also prevents WoTC from accidentally buffing moon druids every time a new monster statbook is released.
Also, maybe it would be in moon druid's best interest to just limit them to CR 1 beasts, but buff those beasts based on level. Higher CR beasts aren't that great and CR 1 has a good deal of variety.
I also agree that having moon druids being more like shifters is kind of neat. Not that I disliked the moon based spells to begin with. I think the theming makes more sense.
I think that was the purpose of the first Druid playtest's pre-set wildshape templates. I know they weren't popular, but I think they were the correct direction to take. The concept should be refined instead of discarded, IMO.
That's why I specified good templates. It does need more templates (or a very complicated template).
That's honestly been a problem as I see it with this playtest. There's been a lot of good ideas that they have come up with that were steps in the right direction, but not nearly there yet. Feedback is negative, and the idea scrapped rather than refined. Not having seen the feedback, I don't know if they got the impression that things were bad ideas or if they were unsatisfied with the implementation more than the idea itself.
That said, I think they caved a bit too easily on some ideas that would have made the game better, but were unpopular decisions. I think some feedback has been given as negative because it was different, rather than necessarily bad and that WOTC should have ripped the bandaid off and said, we know this choice is unpopular, but we think this will make the game better, and will be more accepted over time.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
What if they do both. So all druids keep the U6 version of Wildshape and Moon Druid gets both UA6 minus the moonlight magic stuff and gets 5 templates, the crawler (spider climb, poison), the pouncer (pounce, pack tactics), the charger (charge, high movement speed), the swimmer (amphibious, swim speed), the flyer (fly speed). With each template granting different stats and abilities depending on if you choose to be a tiny, small, medium, large, or huge form. So those 5 templates is really 25 templates. That would mean while most druids were stuck only having 5 known forms a Moon Druid would have 5 known normal beast and 5 templates at level 8. With the templates they could look like normal beast or chimeras. Really just player choice. This means when you need a specific feature of a beast you can have that beast as a known form and when you just want something that is 100% better balanced as a combat form you use template to be whatever beast you imagine matches the template. The templates would need to be solid for this to work.
I think Circle Of The Moon is almost to a point I'd be ok with, it just needs a few tweaks. I don't like the way they do the AC "boost", like others have said it makes choosing Warden for your Primal Order almost mandatory. I would rather see either a set bonus to the creature's AC(that perhaps increases at higher levels) or a simpler way would be just adding your Wisdom modifier to the creature's AC. I would also like to see them able to use their Spell Attack Bonus for the creature's attacks, and their Spell Save DC for any abilities the creature has that force a Saving Throw(like wolves knocking targets prone). Give me those, and I think I'd be willing to sign off on the new Circle Of The Moon.
While I am strongly against using templates for Wildshape as a whole the idea of Moon Druid having Combat Wildshape at level 3 and then gaining a template-based Wildshape at level 6 or 10 isn't too offensive to me, depending on how it's flavored and so long as I don't lose the versatility and fun of using the actual beast statblocks.
I'd probably theme it as invoking a benevolent form of lycanthropy. You draw on the transformative powers of the moon to achieve a more supernatural transformation, but due to your connection to nature, you don't lose your sense of self. You become a thinking werecreature who is devoted to safeguarding the land from trespassers.
You get one combat template with a bunch of options to customize it to suit whatever beast you want your form to be. You can flavor it however you want. Either a straight-up werebeast or just a dire beast or even some chimeric creature. The choices you make to the form are permanent additions like a Warlock's invocations, so each Moon Druid's werebeast form is unique.
This way there'd be a single strong, supernatural wildshape purely for combat while the Moon Druid still has a robust number of wildshapes for other things like turning into a giant eagle or quetzalcoatlus for air travel or turning into a mammoth or brontosaurus when they just need to be really, really big.
All that said though, it'd be simpler to just buff Combat Wildshape enough that it is usable on its own.
This could be resolved by a simple "Choose the highest" clause. Use the druid's Spell To Hit if it is higher. Use the beast's attack mod if it is higher. That way all the beasts that aren't better designed are still functional.
And since Wildshape uses the druid's HP, AC is scaled in some way, and the beast form can use the druid's Spell To Hit all they need to do is come up with a way to keep the beast form's damage relative to higher CR and you can use your Dire Wolf form alongside your friend who's turning into a mammoth and can expect similar but different performance.
Maybe add 1D8 more damage to one attack for every CR level above the beast's CR your max CR is at. So if you're level 20 your Dire Wolf gets +5D8 (Since you can achieve CR 6 and it is only CR1) and is hitting for a total of 2D6+3+5D8 = 29 while your mammoth friend is dealing 4D10+7 = 27 when standing. Dire Wolf also gets Pack Tactics and knocks enemies prone on hit while the mammoth can deal + 4D8 + 7 = 50 on a charge.
This isn't including the extra 2D8 from Primal Strike since both would also get that.
Assuming save DC scales with Spell Save as well the dire wolf form would still be functional at higher levels due to constant Advantage and knocking enemies prone for allies to also get Advantage.
I’m in somewhat of agreement here. Allow them to use spell attack modifier, an AC boost (beast AC + something?), expend spell slots to boost damage if you want some extra power. Maybe a baseline scaling of damage based on CR so if you are using a CR 2 less than your max you get a boost. So you can play a wolf all the way to 20 if you want or diversify your beast shapes as you gain access to higher CRs.
If you are tiny beast you don’t get the damage increases or it’s half damage (tiny more for utility and not a kitten doing massive damage).
I do kind of like the last version of picking known shapes.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I know I'm the lone voice in this, but I still am a proponent of wild shape NOT conveying the beast's hit points as a buff to the druid.
Mammoth is NOT the only CR 6 beast available. The giant ape is there, as is the t-rex, and the giant crab, both of which have more hit points than the mammoth. In addition, the sperm whale is available when the druid is in the ocean.
When the moon druid has UNLIMITED wild shapes available, this pool of hit point buffs means they're unkillable. And despite what most here seem to think, it's easily abused at lower levels as well.
So the biggest thing I NEED from the druid - especially the moon druid - is the change to wild shape hit points we've seen in previous UAs.