I think my issue with the new conjure spells is less with what they do than with the fact they don't feel like entities any more, and I had an idea, which really applies to more things than just these spells: make it so a lot of conjurations create attackable entities. The basic idea would be
Destructible: a destructible spell creates an object or creature. This means
Passing through its space is equivalent to passing through the space of a creature of similar size. If unspecified, treat as difficult terrain.
It can be damaged or destroyed. Unless otherwise specified, treat as an object with hit points equal to 10x the level of spell used to create it, and AC equal to the caster's spell save DC. Doing so is equivalent to dispelling it.
This is actually reasonable for a lot of conjuration spells; for example, it seems entirely plausible to break out of entangle with a machete. It's also appropriate for spells of other schools that create or use entities. The idea probably needs some balancing, but remember that time the enemy spends killing a conjuration is time spent not killing the party.
so, back to being summons but each limited to only one template? or more like spell effects tied to solid illusions?
i don't think i prefer any of that for druid. they can use tashas summons or negotiate for assistance from local 'real meat' animals if they need a meat shield. i feel lots of easy meat shielding is exactly what devs are scooting away from.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
so, back to being summons but each limited to only one template? or more like spell effects tied to solid illusions?
Spell effects tied to solid entities (they aren't illusions). The issue with summons was never meat shielding, it was that they're both super slow to resolve and way too powerful for their level.
so, back to being summons but each limited to only one template? or more like spell effects tied to solid illusions?
i don't think i prefer any of that for druid. they can use tashas summons or negotiate for assistance from local 'real meat' animals if they need a meat shield. i feel lots of easy meat shielding is exactly what devs are scooting away from.
I am 99.99% sure they want to eliminate multiple summons, as they feel it slows down the game too much. And to be honest, unless you have a player who heavily prepares, even summoning one thing can overly slow down the game.
I know the last summons user I played back in 3.5/Pathfinder worked well because I had the 5 or 6 most common things I would summon already statted up, complete with whatever modifications were applied by archetype and feats of my character. It worked well enough I was invited by the DM to play something else, preferably to be ready by the very next game session. Compared to someone else in the group who never prepared, and was only asked to play something else when the rest of us went to the corner store every time they started flipping through a book trying to decide what they wanted to summon.
I'd be fine with some of these (Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental/Minor Elementals in particular) counting as difficult terrain. But Celestial, Fey, and Woodland Beings don't need to. And imo, none of them should be outright physical obstacles/barriers.
so, back to being summons but each limited to only one template? or more like spell effects tied to solid illusions?
Spell effects tied to solid entities (they aren't illusions). The issue with summons was never meat shielding, it was that they're both super slow to resolve and way too powerful for their level.
They aren't solid entities, they are MMO glowing circles.
I'll never understand why "MMO" and "video game" are universal pejoratives. Game designers should learn valuable lessons from any and every medium.
For example, one valuable lesson MMOs taught us is that it isn't fun for people when their characters can't even move because literally every player-generated or summoned effect has a hitbox.
I didn't like it at first, but it sounds like the Tasha summons will be in the 2024 PHB, so this is just another option. And frankly, most of the summons in the vanilla 5e PHB were meh or just bad. The only one I'd keep the same is Conjure Animals, and that's down to the sheer variety. I could see why it could be a hassle for DMs, but one way to resolve it is to have both the old and new versions of the spell and say the DM decides ahead of time which the player can use.
I'll never understand why "MMO" and "video game" are universal pejoratives. Game designers should learn valuable lessons from any and every medium.
For example, one valuable lesson MMOs taught us is that it isn't fun for people when their characters can't even move because literally every player-generated or summoned effect has a hitbox.
Who says I'm using it perjoratively? I'm simply clarifying the mechanics in simple terms people are familiar with. These spells are not conjuring creatures, they are making magic AoE circles that deal damage like in dozens of MMOs.
I'll never understand why "MMO" and "video game" are universal pejoratives. Game designers should learn valuable lessons from any and every medium.
For example, one valuable lesson MMOs taught us is that it isn't fun for people when their characters can't even move because literally every player-generated or summoned effect has a hitbox.
I think it has to do with limited nature of videogames and the sad experience of 4e.
I think it has to do with limited nature of videogames and the sad experience of 4e.
The MMOness of 4e was greatly overstated. It was really written like a board game, not a computer game. It did have tank/dps/heal, but it added a fourth ('controller') to the holy trinity, and the reality is that everything but tank had already existed, and people wanted to be able to tank.
I think my issue with the new conjure spells is less with what they do than with the fact they don't feel like entities any more, and I had an idea, which really applies to more things than just these spells: make it so a lot of conjurations create attackable entities. The basic idea would be
Destructible: a destructible spell creates an object or creature. This means
This is actually reasonable for a lot of conjuration spells; for example, it seems entirely plausible to break out of entangle with a machete. It's also appropriate for spells of other schools that create or use entities. The idea probably needs some balancing, but remember that time the enemy spends killing a conjuration is time spent not killing the party.
so, back to being summons but each limited to only one template? or more like spell effects tied to solid illusions?
i don't think i prefer any of that for druid. they can use tashas summons or negotiate for assistance from local 'real meat' animals if they need a meat shield. i feel lots of easy meat shielding is exactly what devs are scooting away from.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Spell effects tied to solid entities (they aren't illusions). The issue with summons was never meat shielding, it was that they're both super slow to resolve and way too powerful for their level.
I am 99.99% sure they want to eliminate multiple summons, as they feel it slows down the game too much. And to be honest, unless you have a player who heavily prepares, even summoning one thing can overly slow down the game.
I know the last summons user I played back in 3.5/Pathfinder worked well because I had the 5 or 6 most common things I would summon already statted up, complete with whatever modifications were applied by archetype and feats of my character. It worked well enough I was invited by the DM to play something else, preferably to be ready by the very next game session. Compared to someone else in the group who never prepared, and was only asked to play something else when the rest of us went to the corner store every time they started flipping through a book trying to decide what they wanted to summon.
I'd be fine with some of these (Conjure Animals and Conjure Elemental/Minor Elementals in particular) counting as difficult terrain. But Celestial, Fey, and Woodland Beings don't need to. And imo, none of them should be outright physical obstacles/barriers.
They aren't solid entities, they are MMO glowing circles.
I'll never understand why "MMO" and "video game" are universal pejoratives. Game designers should learn valuable lessons from any and every medium.
For example, one valuable lesson MMOs taught us is that it isn't fun for people when their characters can't even move because literally every player-generated or summoned effect has a hitbox.
I didn't like it at first, but it sounds like the Tasha summons will be in the 2024 PHB, so this is just another option. And frankly, most of the summons in the vanilla 5e PHB were meh or just bad. The only one I'd keep the same is Conjure Animals, and that's down to the sheer variety. I could see why it could be a hassle for DMs, but one way to resolve it is to have both the old and new versions of the spell and say the DM decides ahead of time which the player can use.
Who says I'm using it perjoratively? I'm simply clarifying the mechanics in simple terms people are familiar with. These spells are not conjuring creatures, they are making magic AoE circles that deal damage like in dozens of MMOs.
I think it has to do with limited nature of videogames and the sad experience of 4e.
The MMOness of 4e was greatly overstated. It was really written like a board game, not a computer game. It did have tank/dps/heal, but it added a fourth ('controller') to the holy trinity, and the reality is that everything but tank had already existed, and people wanted to be able to tank.