Hello, I am looking for help on how best to adjust the Undead Patron to fit with the UA version of the class. Should I just shift all the 1st level features to 3rd and just go from there as normal?
Hello, I am looking for help on how best to adjust the Undead Patron to fit with the UA version of the class. Should I just shift all the 1st level features to 3rd and just go from there as normal?
That and make the pact spells into spell known instead of spells available to be learned. That is basically it.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
Fiend can pick up Hellish Rebuke at 1st level, as well as Green Flame Blade, and Create Bonfire plus Devil's Sight. Also Armour of Agathys since several of the Nine Hells are frozen rather than on fire. Undead can pick up unlimited False Life as an Invocation, plus Hex, Cause Fear, Toll the Dead and Chill Touch Fey can pick up Friends, Minor Illusion, Cause Fear, Charm Person and unlimited Silent Image or Disguise Self from an Invocation GOO can pick up Mind Sliver, Mage Hand, Arms of Hadar, and Armor of Agathys, plus Pact of the Tome for a bunch of rituals.
Even Celestial is fine, being able to pick up Blade Ward, Friends, True Strike, Protection for Evil and Good, and Detect Magic/Comprehend Languages plus Pact of the Blade to be a true holy warrior, or Eldritch Mind if they want to be more of a caster-pastor.
Alternatively, any of them could take Lessons of the First Ones to pick up Magic Initiate for 2 cantrips + 1x 1st level spell that are as thematic as they like: Fiend : MI(wizard) Firebolt, Produce Flame, Burning Hands Fey : MI(Bard) Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Faerie Fire GOO: MI(Bard) Mind Sliver, Mage Hand, Dissonant Whispers Undead: MI(Cleric) Toll the Dead, Spare the Dying, Bane Celestial: MI(Cleric) Sacred Flame, Guidance, Healing Word Genie: MI(wizard) Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Chromatic Orb Fathomless: MI(druid) Ray of Frost, Druidcraft, Thunderwave Hexblade: MI(wizard) Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Shield
Personally I think you either need to commit to 2014 or 2024 for class and subclass features, not try to intermingle the two. There are several classes with subclass features that refer back to class features introduced in the update, for one. We won’t know for sure how much difference there will be until we see the new PHB, but I suspect most classes will have a case of “square peg, round hole” when trying to mesh main class and subclass between versions.
And yeah, while I kinda understand the idea of putting off the choice to give new players a chance to feel out the class some and avoiding too much front-loading, it really doesn’t make sense for Warlocks and Clerics to be so thoroughly undeclared.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
Hello, I am looking for help on how best to adjust the Undead Patron to fit with the UA version of the class. Should I just shift all the 1st level features to 3rd and just go from there as normal?
That and make the pact spells into spell known instead of spells available to be learned. That is basically it.
That is what I thought but wasn't sure if I was missing something. Thanks for the help <3
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
see, it's the "can't do those without a pact" stuff that never really was resolved during the UA. the quick answer is that you are in the main pact from day-1 and you have to grow a little to get to the patron spells (Aquilontune's view, unless i misunderstand). the lore-blurb answer (or rather one specific PHB spin, i suppose) is that research was done to gain some power while the main pact arrives somewhere between 1st and 3rd level. the easy answer provided during the UA is that you may make many pacts: invocations are minorpacts and EB is the most fundamental invocation (an RAI assumption, but not a wacky one (make it a class feature already!)) while the main pact is just your biggest pact among many.
either way, i acknowledge that subclasses will start at 3rd level and patron spells/flavor are tied to subclass. however, i maintain that it wouldn't ruin the game to have a 1st level base class feature that said something like "unless you are multiclassing, choose the warlock subclass you think your character will likely grow into and observe that subclass Patron Spells list. at character creation and again upon reaching 2nd level: gain one charm to cast one of those level-1 spells. each charm is destroyed when it is used. you decide how your character came to possess the charm." for one, it solves the lack of patron involvement without being specific about which is the right 'answer' for how pacts happen. for two, it puts a small dent in the complaint that warlocks don't get to cast many leveled spells in a day.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Personally I think you either need to commit to 2014 or 2024 for class and subclass features, not try to intermingle the two. There are several classes with subclass features that refer back to class features introduced in the update, for one. We won’t know for sure how much difference there will be until we see the new PHB, but I suspect most classes will have a case of “square peg, round hole” when trying to mesh main class and subclass between versions.
And yeah, while I kinda understand the idea of putting off the choice to give new players a chance to feel out the class some and avoiding too much front-loading, it really doesn’t make sense for Warlocks and Clerics to be so thoroughly undeclared.
While I agree with you, their design direction is clear. I don't like it, but so be it. Hopefully, they will add general conversion instructions to make it easier to avoid confusion or having to outright ban older/newer content due to design incompatibility. While it's easy to figure out how it should be done, putting it in black and white makes it a bit easier for wishy-washy DMs to make a ruling.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Personally I think you either need to commit to 2014 or 2024 for class and subclass features, not try to intermingle the two. There are several classes with subclass features that refer back to class features introduced in the update, for one. We won’t know for sure how much difference there will be until we see the new PHB, but I suspect most classes will have a case of “square peg, round hole” when trying to mesh main class and subclass between versions.
And yeah, while I kinda understand the idea of putting off the choice to give new players a chance to feel out the class some and avoiding too much front-loading, it really doesn’t make sense for Warlocks and Clerics to be so thoroughly undeclared.
While I agree with you, their design direction is clear. I don't like it, but so be it. Hopefully, they will add general conversion instructions to make it easier to avoid confusion or having to outright ban older/newer content due to design incompatibility. While it's easy to figure out how it should be done, putting it in black and white makes it a bit easier for wishy-washy DMs to make a ruling.
They won’t have a conversion. They will print a book to update those subclasses later. Conversions don’t help them make money.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
see, it's the "can't do those without a pact" stuff that never really was resolved during the UA. the quick answer is that you are in the main pact from day-1 and you have to grow a little to get to the patron spells (Aquilontune's view, unless i misunderstand). the lore-blurb answer (or rather one specific PHB spin, i suppose) is that research was done to gain some power while the main pact arrives somewhere between 1st and 3rd level. the easy answer provided during the UA is that you may make many pacts: invocations are minorpacts and EB is the most fundamental invocation (an RAI assumption, but not a wacky one (make it a class feature already!)) while the main pact is just your biggest pact among many.
either way, i acknowledge that subclasses will start at 3rd level and patron spells/flavor are tied to subclass. however, i maintain that it wouldn't ruin the game to have a 1st level base class feature that said something like "unless you are multiclassing, choose the warlock subclass you think your character will likely grow into and observe that subclass Patron Spells list. at character creation and again upon reaching 2nd level: gain one charm to cast one of those level-1 spells. each charm is destroyed when it is used. you decide how your character came to possess the charm." for one, it solves the lack of patron involvement without being specific about which is the right 'answer' for how pacts happen. for two, it puts a small dent in the complaint that warlocks don't get to cast many leveled spells in a day.
My view is it can be either. If you want to have a patron already picked out ok. If you want to be studying pacts and have minor deals before making the main pact that is fine. What ever fits YOUR character's narrative. Maybe you have a pact and if you change your mind then the person who originally held your contract traded it somehow. The mechanics can fit a multitude of stories if you want. But just because you do not have patron specific powers till later doesn't mean you don't have a patron. It also doesn't mean you have to have a patron either. It is up to you how you want to play it. You may not even have direct contact with your patron until level 10 when you get the ability to contact your patron once a day.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
They do effect it, but the enforcement of such is left to RP and not mechanics. I think of 1st and 2nd level, under OneD&D as like “apprenticeship”, where your instructor/mentor/patron (in any class) is teaching you the common/basic stuff for that path. Then at 3rd level you start to get the specialized training.
Now did you pick your specialization/patron/deity-domain at 1st level but hadn’t learned/grown into the special/secret knowledge yet? Or did you pick nothing at 1st level, and didn’t pick it until 3rd level? That’s an RP issue. For Fighter it really could be either. For Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock … it seems more like you would have apprenticed into a path you picked at 1st level but didn’t pay off until 3rd… but there are some edge cases you could use. Like you apprenticed for one order, but changed your mind before leveling up to 3rd level (could work for Paladins, easily … or Bards… a little less likely for Sorcerer and Warlock, but could work)
Personally I think you either need to commit to 2014 or 2024 for class and subclass features, not try to intermingle the two. There are several classes with subclass features that refer back to class features introduced in the update, for one. We won’t know for sure how much difference there will be until we see the new PHB, but I suspect most classes will have a case of “square peg, round hole” when trying to mesh main class and subclass between versions.
And yeah, while I kinda understand the idea of putting off the choice to give new players a chance to feel out the class some and avoiding too much front-loading, it really doesn’t make sense for Warlocks and Clerics to be so thoroughly undeclared.
While I agree with you, their design direction is clear. I don't like it, but so be it. Hopefully, they will add general conversion instructions to make it easier to avoid confusion or having to outright ban older/newer content due to design incompatibility. While it's easy to figure out how it should be done, putting it in black and white makes it a bit easier for wishy-washy DMs to make a ruling.
They won’t have a conversion. They will print a book to update those subclasses later. Conversions don’t help them make money.
*sigh* you are not wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
They do effect it, but the enforcement of such is left to RP and not mechanics. I think of 1st and 2nd level, under OneD&D as like “apprenticeship”, where your instructor/mentor/patron (in any class) is teaching you the common/basic stuff for that path. Then at 3rd level you start to get the specialized training.
Now did you pick your specialization/patron/deity-domain at 1st level but hadn’t learned/grown into the special/secret knowledge yet? Or did you pick nothing at 1st level, and didn’t pick it until 3rd level? That’s an RP issue. For Fighter it really could be either. For Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock … it seems more like you would have apprenticed into a path you picked at 1st level but didn’t pay off until 3rd… but there are some edge cases you could use. Like you apprenticed for one order, but changed your mind before leveling up to 3rd level (could work for Paladins, easily … or Bards… a little less likely for Sorcerer and Warlock, but could work)
to me it makes more sense to get your unique, flavor option, your taste of power, the gateway drug up front. Then, you get the boon later. OK, now, you start to see the real fruits of your investment. it makes much more sense to me, but there's no need to start that argument again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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Hello, I am looking for help on how best to adjust the Undead Patron to fit with the UA version of the class. Should I just shift all the 1st level features to 3rd and just go from there as normal?
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
That and make the pact spells into spell known instead of spells available to be learned. That is basically it.
'Form of Undead' at a later level makes sense, sure, but i feel like converting 'Expanded Spell List' (2014-1st level) to 'Patron Spells' (UA-3rd level) edges into the conflict about whether you're really a warlock at level 1 if lore insists that you haven't got a patron yet. what's the point (some might say) in signing a devil's contract in blood at/before 1st level if all you get is eldritch blast? where's the fire and the flame?? same with undead patron: where's that early access to bane and false life that feels like forbidden knowledge, the taste of which tempts the curious warlock ever closer to a fateful step beyond the veil? and they're not entirely wrong to ask, especially when they're standing beside a goo-lock that has explained away their eldritch blast as having been learned from a taboo book sans patron?
one solution is prepare to go with Patron Spells (instead of Expanded Spells List) at 3rd, but first offer the character a charm (as described in the DMG) at creation and another at 2nd level. let the charm be a trinket that allows them to cast once a 1st level spell from the chosen subclass Patron Spells list. DM should talk with the warlock and be sure they know that using this charm brings them closer to a meeting/connection/confrontation with their patron (so don't hoard it). the charm could be gifted, earned, unearthed, chanced upon, etc to contrive an okay place to start the warlock and patron connection.
obviously any DM can do what they want regardless of the text, but i'd like to see something like this in the PHB warlock lore blurb: a canon option to smooth the transition from 'yes warlock, no patron' to 'yes warlock, yes patron' would be welcome.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Fiend can pick up Hellish Rebuke at 1st level, as well as Green Flame Blade, and Create Bonfire plus Devil's Sight. Also Armour of Agathys since several of the Nine Hells are frozen rather than on fire.
Undead can pick up unlimited False Life as an Invocation, plus Hex, Cause Fear, Toll the Dead and Chill Touch
Fey can pick up Friends, Minor Illusion, Cause Fear, Charm Person and unlimited Silent Image or Disguise Self from an Invocation
GOO can pick up Mind Sliver, Mage Hand, Arms of Hadar, and Armor of Agathys, plus Pact of the Tome for a bunch of rituals.
Even Celestial is fine, being able to pick up Blade Ward, Friends, True Strike, Protection for Evil and Good, and Detect Magic/Comprehend Languages plus Pact of the Blade to be a true holy warrior, or Eldritch Mind if they want to be more of a caster-pastor.
Alternatively, any of them could take Lessons of the First Ones to pick up Magic Initiate for 2 cantrips + 1x 1st level spell that are as thematic as they like:
Fiend : MI(wizard) Firebolt, Produce Flame, Burning Hands
Fey : MI(Bard) Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Faerie Fire
GOO: MI(Bard) Mind Sliver, Mage Hand, Dissonant Whispers
Undead: MI(Cleric) Toll the Dead, Spare the Dying, Bane
Celestial: MI(Cleric) Sacred Flame, Guidance, Healing Word
Genie: MI(wizard) Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Chromatic Orb
Fathomless: MI(druid) Ray of Frost, Druidcraft, Thunderwave
Hexblade: MI(wizard) Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Shield
Personally I think you either need to commit to 2014 or 2024 for class and subclass features, not try to intermingle the two. There are several classes with subclass features that refer back to class features introduced in the update, for one. We won’t know for sure how much difference there will be until we see the new PHB, but I suspect most classes will have a case of “square peg, round hole” when trying to mesh main class and subclass between versions.
And yeah, while I kinda understand the idea of putting off the choice to give new players a chance to feel out the class some and avoiding too much front-loading, it really doesn’t make sense for Warlocks and Clerics to be so thoroughly undeclared.
You have pact magic at level 1, you have an invocation at level 1, there are also a plethora of warlock exclusive spells at level 1. Can't do those without a pact. Just because they aren't giving you patron specific spells till higher level doesn't mean the patrons give you nothing at level 1. Same with Sorcerer and their bloodline, A monk and their discipline, a paladin and their oath, A cleric and their domain, a Barbarian and their path, a wizard and their school or a druid and their druidic circle, a bard and his college.
It’s still weird that the literal source of your power doesn’t influence what spells you can use or otherwise make itself manifest for a few levels. There’s ways to spin it, but it’s still a bit contrived especially with the 2014 class right there for comparison.
That is what I thought but wasn't sure if I was missing something. Thanks for the help <3
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
see, it's the "can't do those without a pact" stuff that never really was resolved during the UA. the quick answer is that you are in the main pact from day-1 and you have to grow a little to get to the patron spells (Aquilontune's view, unless i misunderstand). the lore-blurb answer (or rather one specific PHB spin, i suppose) is that research was done to gain some power while the main pact arrives somewhere between 1st and 3rd level. the easy answer provided during the UA is that you may make many pacts: invocations are minor pacts and EB is the most fundamental invocation (an RAI assumption, but not a wacky one (make it a class feature already!)) while the main pact is just your biggest pact among many.
either way, i acknowledge that subclasses will start at 3rd level and patron spells/flavor are tied to subclass. however, i maintain that it wouldn't ruin the game to have a 1st level base class feature that said something like "unless you are multiclassing, choose the warlock subclass you think your character will likely grow into and observe that subclass Patron Spells list. at character creation and again upon reaching 2nd level: gain one charm to cast one of those level-1 spells. each charm is destroyed when it is used. you decide how your character came to possess the charm." for one, it solves the lack of patron involvement without being specific about which is the right 'answer' for how pacts happen. for two, it puts a small dent in the complaint that warlocks don't get to cast many leveled spells in a day.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
While I agree with you, their design direction is clear. I don't like it, but so be it. Hopefully, they will add general conversion instructions to make it easier to avoid confusion or having to outright ban older/newer content due to design incompatibility. While it's easy to figure out how it should be done, putting it in black and white makes it a bit easier for wishy-washy DMs to make a ruling.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
They won’t have a conversion. They will print a book to update those subclasses later. Conversions don’t help them make money.
My view is it can be either. If you want to have a patron already picked out ok. If you want to be studying pacts and have minor deals before making the main pact that is fine. What ever fits YOUR character's narrative. Maybe you have a pact and if you change your mind then the person who originally held your contract traded it somehow. The mechanics can fit a multitude of stories if you want. But just because you do not have patron specific powers till later doesn't mean you don't have a patron. It also doesn't mean you have to have a patron either. It is up to you how you want to play it. You may not even have direct contact with your patron until level 10 when you get the ability to contact your patron once a day.
I do not find that jarring at all.
They do effect it, but the enforcement of such is left to RP and not mechanics. I think of 1st and 2nd level, under OneD&D as like “apprenticeship”, where your instructor/mentor/patron (in any class) is teaching you the common/basic stuff for that path. Then at 3rd level you start to get the specialized training.
Now did you pick your specialization/patron/deity-domain at 1st level but hadn’t learned/grown into the special/secret knowledge yet? Or did you pick nothing at 1st level, and didn’t pick it until 3rd level? That’s an RP issue. For Fighter it really could be either. For Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Warlock … it seems more like you would have apprenticed into a path you picked at 1st level but didn’t pay off until 3rd… but there are some edge cases you could use. Like you apprenticed for one order, but changed your mind before leveling up to 3rd level (could work for Paladins, easily … or Bards… a little less likely for Sorcerer and Warlock, but could work)
*sigh* you are not wrong.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
to me it makes more sense to get your unique, flavor option, your taste of power, the gateway drug up front. Then, you get the boon later. OK, now, you start to see the real fruits of your investment. it makes much more sense to me, but there's no need to start that argument again.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha