Just because hexblade was strictly better, didn't mean 2014 bladelock was not viable. It was perhaps not optimal, but it was functional and playable.
I didn't say it wasn't playable I said it wasn't usable, which is decidedly a much different term with a much different meaning.
Usability relates to how easy something is too use and pact of the blade was not easy too use because of how effectively subpar it was. Because using the weapon from Pact of the Blade was less effective and efficient than just using eldritch blast, you had too massively spec into the weapon to a point where you might as well have just been a fighter or a paladin instead.
To its credit 5e has a very wide playablity range. Unless you are paying on a really hard table you can be fairly under optimized and be playable, and likely wont cause any TPKs or anything extreme. But how usable it is as you point out is not the same. You may need to either spec out a lot with feats/multi-classing or accept and enjoy being very sub par. This in general guides people away from the things that are not very usable unless they are looking for some build challenge or joke character. i am curious where people will be on things like this a year into 2024 D&D being out. We are seeing stuff online, a few people may have books, we can guess how it will all come together, but in play is where its really figured out.
Just because hexblade was strictly better, didn't mean 2014 bladelock was not viable. It was perhaps not optimal, but it was functional and playable.
I didn't say it wasn't playable I said it wasn't usable, which is decidedly a much different term with a much different meaning.
I disagree that there's a distinction in the terms in this context.
That doesn't mean that the distinction you're trying to draw doesn't exist, just that trying to differentiate with those terms confuses the question.
Usability relates to how easy something is too use and pact of the blade was not easy too use because of how effectively subpar it was. Because using the weapon from Pact of the Blade was less effective and efficient than just using eldritch blast, you had too massively spec into the weapon to a point where you might as well have just been a eldritch knight fighter or a paladin instead.
EDIT: You effectively need CHA, STR, DEX and CON which was insanely MAD, since Warlock AC is low and armour is limited to light you needed DEX, you needed a weapon worth and also lowered the risk, which really put it too Polearms but those need STR. You need CON for more survivability and then obviously you need CHA since you're still a warlock. It's way too MAD, and requires way too much specialization in feats to then make it potentially do more than just using Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex. Potentially you can mitigate it by multiclassing but as I said earlier, an easier choice is just to play an entirely different class, so pact of the blade needed the buff.
So while it could still be played, it was hard to build around and use effectively at all, as such, it's usability was terrible.
Every class and subclass in 5e is playable (playable: functional and at least reasonably effective in an average game) without too many contortions in its default mode. The default mode of non-hexblade blade-pact is Dex fighter. The strength build, as you point out, can't sort out its armor class, so it's a much harder build to pull off. The dex build just grabs armor of shadows and is fine. Does it out-damage somebody sitting there and spamming Eldritch Blast? Perhaps not, but it doesn't need to. It's living in the realm of non-fighter melee effectiveness, and its support stuff is "being a caster".
Just because hexblade was strictly better, didn't mean 2014 bladelock was not viable. It was perhaps not optimal, but it was functional and playable.
I didn't say it wasn't playable I said it wasn't usable, which is decidedly a much different term with a much different meaning.
I disagree that there's a distinction in the terms in this context.
That doesn't mean that the distinction you're trying to draw doesn't exist, just that trying to differentiate with those terms confuses the question.
The distinction very much matters, because It confuses the question in the wrong way, I said unusable first, I never said unplayable, I know what I meant when I used the term unusable. I very VERY much meant it from a usability perspective.
Disagree all you want with that, but again, this is all about my words and I know what context I said those words in.
Every class and subclass in 5e is playable (playable: functional and at least reasonably effective in an average game) without too many contortions in its default mode. The default mode of non-hexblade blade-pact is Dex fighter. The strength build, as you point out, can't sort out its armor class, so it's a much harder build to pull off. The dex build just grabs armor of shadows and is fine. Does it out-damage somebody sitting there and spamming Eldritch Blast? Perhaps not, but it doesn't need to. It's living in the realm of non-fighter melee effectiveness, and its support stuff is "being a caster".
Nobody said Pact of the Blade is unplayable, I started it by saying it's unusable, just to re-iterate.
The problem with a DEX-based pact of the blade warlock is it puts the Warlock within 5 foot of a target which means having to disengage or use other methods to not be stood right next to hostile creatures, that consumes action or bonus action which causes it's own issues. Further too this, the highest damage die that can be achieved is a 1d8 (rapier). You can take an off-hand weapon for two weapon fighting but pact of the blade doesn't even grant a fighting style, so you're just an inferior fighter/ranger/bladesinger at that point.
"It's living in the realm of non-fighter melee effectiveness" this is the most problematic thing, since it's really not living in that realm, the damage output is vastly subpar, the survivability is vastly supbar. To keep up a high AC and attack modifier you need high DEX, to not go down easily in combat you also need some HP so you need a good CON, then you need CHA if you want to be doing spellcasting well, it's too thinly spread with attribute scores. Nearly all of the fighter subclasses add damage to the fighter, which is not the case for Warlock until Hexblade. You have zero chance of keeping up to pace on DPR with a pact of the blade warlock using melee attacks against a battlemaster fighter.
Armor of Shadows would help, but that is quiet an invocation tax by level 11, you'd have Armor of Shadows, Thirsting Blade and Life Drinker, just to stay relevant (but not really). And the choice of Pact of the Blade is literally only to enable the ability to pick-up Thirsting Blade and Life Drinker, the pact itself was adding very little other than being a requirement for certain invocations, if you add Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite on top of that, that takes all 5 invocations at level 11. And after all of this, you'll still be on less DPR, so what's the point? This is also what I mean by a case of usability, the build gets quickly over complicated for no good reason.
As far as Armor of Shadows goes, it's mage armor, so it's 13+DEX, this is still not a good AC. If you had a +3 to DEX then you get 16, which is fair but then you're not pushing CHA enough in standard array and you're doing heavy amounts of min-maxing in point buy. At that point, why even stay with Warlock, you can start with 16AC as a Fighter or a Paladin, or 17 with fighting style. Fighter and Paladin both get methods they can use for self-healing and have D10 hit die. Barbarian has Rage and Rogue has bonus action disengage and evasive, Monk was always in a bad place in 2014, Ranger can get 16 AC pretty early and with medium armor can best that same AC. mage armor about equivilant too a +1 studded leather, it's not great, earlier game sure, it's okay but mid game and late game... it's not keeping up, it doesn't scale.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Armour of Shadows is a waste of time. Studded leather gets you 12+DEX and it's not that unlikely to get +1 armour in tier 2 play, Fiendish Vigor is a much better choice to improve survivability. Certainly a Pact of the Blade warlock must use their spell slots and invocations to match the power of a martial character but that's a good thing, they still get full caster spell progression, short-rest regenerating slots, and a bunch of invocations, if they were also just as good at using weapons as a fighter without using any of those resources then there would be no reason to ever play any other class.
Armour of Shadows is a waste of time. Studded leather gets you 12+DEX and it's not that unlikely to get +1 armour in tier 2 play, Fiendish Vigor is a much better choice to improve survivability. Certainly a Pact of the Blade warlock must use their spell slots and invocations to match the power of a martial character but that's a good thing, they still get full caster spell progression, short-rest regenerating slots, and a bunch of invocations, if they were also just as good at using weapons as a fighter without using any of those resources then there would be no reason to ever play any other class.
Completely agree. One might argue that's the whole point of a gish...using their magic to equal the melee.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Not going to say all these numbers are accurate and it's mostly based on 2014 PHB (things outside of PHB or DMG are generally not considered), nor are these necessarily the optimal builds.
So it's definitely not close for Rogue, Rogue is crushing Bladelock at basically every level.It's to the point that I didn't even bother checking subclass choices or calculating magic weapon differences for Rogue since a Rogue with a mundane dagger is doing more damage than a Bladelock with a +3 magic weapon at level 17.
While Ranger base class is losing against a bladelock, Hunter is beating a bladelock at Tiers 1 & 2. No PHB warlock subclass offers any beneficial damage here. Other choices for Hunter might yield more DPR overall, but have to make a number of assumptions else numbers would take literally forever to calculate. Bladelock edges out Ranger at tier 3 and tier 4, damage is relatively comparable tho.
Two weapon fighting is unsurprisingly a bad choice for bladelock (but compared anyway since Rogue and Ranger are using two weapon fighting in this sheet). Without magic weapons, Bladelock is woefully inferior to Eldritch Blast + Hex, with magic weapons it can just about edge it out with rapier and hex in all but tier 4. I am going to say the damage increase is not worth the sacrifice of going from ranged to melee, it just simply isn't, and you need to ensure your DM is going to give you magic weapons appropriate too tier.
Overall the result is that you need to be very optimized and you then need things outside of your control (like magic weapons), to ensure the build stays competitive, thus I stand by my earlier point, it is not a player-friendly choice, AKA it's not usable.
Is the bladelock smiting? Is your DW taking advantage of hex? Won't get it every round, but you're not going to need to move it every round either. Blade archer beats the EB spammer outright until the warlock gets 3 beams on the strength of smites. Rapier should be doing the same damage. If I read this right, your bladelock is still wasting time with agonizing blast? What's the warlock's cha? Lifedrinker may be in play. Darkness/devils sight may be in play for advantage.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sorry but why do you have a 98% chance of pulling off sneak attack every turn for Rogue? That's completely unrealistic. Rogue makes either one attack with advantage or two attacks without advantage giving you 88% chance of pulling off sneak attack, not 98%.
Is the bladelock smiting? Is your DW taking advantage of hex? Won't get it every round, but you're not going to need to move it every round either. Blade archer beats the EB spammer outright until the warlock gets 3 beams on the strength of smites. Rapier should be doing the same damage. If I read this right, your bladelock is still wasting time with agonizing blast? What's the warlock's cha? Lifedrinker may be in play. Darkness/devils sight may be in play for advantage.
Or the warlock could go fiend warlock and cast fireball which does far far more damage when hitting multiple enemies. Eldritch Smite is not bridging the gap too Rogue. The warlock is also not casting Pass without a trace to improve the chances to get surprise rounds, nor are they casting spike growth. Additionally Eldritch Smite has some very big party synergy issues, in that it knocks targets prone which can be an issue with regards to the ranged members of the party, even if it does help the melee ones. Overall I don't rate it well, and it relies mostly on crit fishing, something made easier by hexblade.
If you assume 6 encounters a day at 3 turns an encounter, then it is going to add 4d8/3 or 6 DPR, else wise if you assume 2 crits (round up from 1.8) over that adventuring day 8/6*4d8/3 or 8 dpr at level 5. This is all very optimistic tho, Overall I'd say outside of a critical hit, there is usually a better usage for Warlocks limited spellslots than Eldritch Smite, so going to the roughly 2 critical hits in this scenario it's roughly 2.25 dpr. Of course if you went with 8 encounters for 4 turns an encounter, that drops too 1.44 DPR. Alternatively what happens if you only have 1 encounter with 8 turns of combat, that really doesn't work well for Eldritch Smite.
So no the numbers do not include eldritch smite, personally I don't think it's an optimal choice and secondly it's up to interpretation to make MANY of these assumptions. There are other choices like Great Invisibility for Archfey at level 7, or normal warlock spells like Armor of Agathys or Hunger of Hadar are good choices. So I am not going for the absolute values of their optimized damage but rather their sustainable/consistent DPR.
Overall, you're sacrificing pact slots at the point of using Eldritch Smite, while the Eldritch Blaster then still has more spell slots to fall back on, they only need cast Hex once unless they use another concentration spell, so they have more versatility and utility in this situation.
EDIT: also forgot too note, as my notes said, the numbers were based on PHB, so material from outside of PHB or DMG, such as eldritch smite (XgtE) weren't considered.
TL:DR - the comparison between Rogue & Bladelock massively depends on the assumptions you make about the amount of combat between short rests and the ease of achieving Sneak Attack. In short combat games Bladelock and Rogue are about equal in long combat games with easy sneak attack Rogue is the winner.
TL:DR - the comparison between Rogue & Bladelock massively depends on the assumptions you make about the amount of combat between short rests and the ease of achieving Sneak Attack. In short combat games Bladelock and Rogue are about equal in long combat games with easy sneak attack Rogue is the winner.
but it also depends on not using subclasses like Arcane Trickster or Assassin, where Rogue would end out a front again. But it still gets back to my initial point, since no single player is in control of exactly how many short or long rests there are, Pact of the Blade is not a good choice from a usability perspective because you're reliant on too many things that are outside of your control. For a Rogue, you are reliant on allies too but most creatures in the books generally prioritize melee over ranged and thus will usually end out within 5 foot of ally.
I will also say in this scenario the Rogue and Ranger have one massive advantage over this DEX based Warlock, which is that Rogue and Ranger are going to use the same attribute modifier for ranged attacks, so they just straight up lose less damage when not in melee where-as this Warlock who prioritized DEX is going to be worse at Eldritch Blast which needs CHA, more so since you'd need agonizing blast to keep the damage up but you need so many invocations for keeping pact of the blade relevant.
And if you do compare it too other Warlocks, the moment you consider using pact slots for things other then Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Smite turns out too generally not be a great use of pact slots. If Eldritch Smite gave one free use per long rest, then I think it'd be a much better invocation. So eldritch smite might increase melee DPR but it's still, in my opinion, a sub-optimal choice unless you're going for very specific builds, it becomes slightly better with hexblade since hexblade's curse helps get more critical hits.
Overall, we have spent A LOT of time on pact of the blade warlock, which isn't even the original point of this thread, which instead is about things that worked in 2014 but are now broken in 2024. Like multi-classing into Fighter from a spellcaster to action surge and cast two levelled spells in one turn, this no longer works in 2024.
But it still gets back to my initial point, since no single player is in control of exactly how many short or long rests there are, Pact of the Blade is not a good choice from a usability perspective because you're reliant on too many things that are outside of your control. For a Rogue, you are reliant on allies too but most creatures in the books generally prioritize melee over ranged and thus will usually end out within 5 foot of ally.
Again this is full of assumptions which are not necessarily true. For Rogue to Sneak attack they not only need an ally within 5ft of an enemy which is far from guaranteed depending on the turn order and combat design and party composition and enemy tactics, they also need to not have disadvantage on their attacks so no poisoned, no frightened, no restraint, no blindness, no enemies using various defensive spells / features. A huge number of enemies can poison or frightened PCs and since Rogue has neither proficiency with Con nor Wis saves it is very very likely that they fail against those effects. Also note that in the above comparison I ignored the Adv from prone that comes along with Eldritch Smite since it requires quite a few assumptions to account for it.
I've both played a Rogue in a level 2-15 campaign and DMed for a rogue in a level 2-12 campaign, and a melee rogue basically can't get Sneak Attack when fighting a dragon, like ever, either they are Frightened or the Dragon is in the air or the Dragon has flown pass the frontline and allies are trying to get away from it. Oozes, and elementals that deal loads of damage to creatures nearby are likewise incredibly difficult to sneak attack because nobody wants to be next to them. Whereas more tanky melee creatures often have ways to poison or grapple + restrain. Sure if your DM like boring/simple creatures you can rely on that sneak attack every turn, but in combats with more complex creatures one sneak attack every 2 turns is more reasonable.
Players do in fact have a huge amount of control over the number of SRs they take, as there are tons of spells & strategies that can be employed to SR almost anywhere (e.g. Rope Trick). If the problem is "the rest of your party are jerks and don't let your character get SRs" that's not a problem with game design, that's a problem with your party and you should... *gasp* talk to them about it.
but it also depends on not using subclasses like Arcane Trickster or Assassin, where Rogue would end out a front again.
Don't move the goal posts. Either we are comparing base Rogue to base Warlock or we are comparing optimized builds to optimized builds (which Assassin most certainly is not) with racial bonuses, feats, subclasses etc... Besides if you are comparing optimized Rogue we aren't talking about "viable" anymore because optimized Rogue has the highest DPR of any class in the game by quite a distance.
I will also say in this scenario the Rogue and Ranger have one massive advantage over this DEX based Warlock, which is that Rogue and Ranger are going to use the same attribute modifier for ranged attacks, so they just straight up lose less damage when not in melee where-as this Warlock who prioritized DEX is going to be worse at Eldritch Blast which needs CHA, more so since you'd need agonizing blast to keep the damage up but you need so many invocations for keeping pact of the blade relevant.
Um... Improved Pact Weapon exists hence Pact of the Blade can use a bow just as easily as Rogue or Ranger, and in fact optimized Pact of the Blade is actually Pact of the Bow, because a Handcrossbow build is easily the most optimal way to play Pact of the Blade. I'm shocked you're bringing Ranger into this since Ranger is just Warlock without Life Drinker or Eldritch Smite so has lower DPR than Pact of the Blade.
And if you do compare it too other Warlocks, the moment you consider using pact slots for things other then Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Smite turns out too generally not be a great use of pact slots.
Which are all still available to the Blade-lock meaning my calculations above are minimums for the Blade-lock since it is using the most reliable choice not the highest DPR one. I mean just look at the Spirit Shroud option in my post above, it's easily out DPRing Rogue, and that's still limiting yourself to only single-target damage. The moment we consider multiple enemies Bladelock shoots upwards in DPR due to their access to AoE spells (though these are hard to calculate since it again depends a lot on encounter design as well as subclass for Warlock since some of their best AoEs are subclass-locked).
The warlock is also not casting Pass without a trace to improve the chances to get surprise rounds, nor are they casting spike growth.
They are if they are an Earth Genasi Dao Genie -lock. But again Spike Growth is very situational in actual play rather than on whiteboards. I've played a druid in a 3 year long campaign always with Spike Growth prepared and it is far away from my go-to spell. If the enemies have range it is useless, if you're in a small area and can't avoid hitting your allies it's mostly useless, if the enemy can fly, burrow or climb walls it is mostly useless, if you've got melee party members it is difficult to use effectively without hurting them as well, if the combat area is too big and open it is more of an inconvenience to enemies than a danger, as they will simply run around it.
But it still gets back to my initial point, since no single player is in control of exactly how many short or long rests there are, Pact of the Blade is not a good choice from a usability perspective because you're reliant on too many things that are outside of your control. For a Rogue, you are reliant on allies too but most creatures in the books generally prioritize melee over ranged and thus will usually end out within 5 foot of ally.
Again this is full of assumptions which are not necessarily true. For Rogue to Sneak attack they not only need an ally within 5ft of an enemy which is far from guaranteed depending on the turn order and combat design, they also need to not have disadvantage on their attacks so no poisoned, no frightened, no blindness, no enemies using various defensive spells / features. A huge number of enemies can poison or frightened PCs and since Rogue has neither proficiency with Con nor Wis saves it is very very likely that they fail against those effects. Also note that in the above comparison I ignored the Adv from prone that comes along with Eldritch Smite since it requires quite a few assumptions to account for it. Players do in fact have a huge amount of control over the number of SRs they take, as there are tons of spells & strategies that can be employed to SR almost anywhere (e.g. Rope Trick). If the problem is "the rest of your party are jerks and don't let your character get SRs" that's not a problem with game design, that's a problem with your party and you should... *gasp* talk to them about it.
The group, not a single player, has control of short rests was the point I was making, thus "single player", not every class wants to short rest at the same time and some don't really care much for short rests at all. Also some groups long rest far more than others, some long rest whenever a session ends which might only cover a third or half of a dungeon.
Yes sneak attack has issues with disadvantage but honestly, despite all these conditions, in most campaigns, a rogue is rarely going to be affected by them, Rogue also does get proficiency against WIS saves at level 15. It also gets into things like AoEs or attacks, where Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge (half incoming damage as a reaction) and Evasion, which makes them generally a lot more sustainable against AoEs or being directly targetted. For Warlock you need either fiendish vigor (where invocations are already limited for melee) or Armor of Agathys (using a pact spell slot that is no longer usable for Eldritch Smite). As such these types of numbers always work by generally the more optimistic assumptions.
but it also depends on not using subclasses like Arcane Trickster or Assassin, where Rogue would end out a front again.
Don't move the goal posts. Either we are comparing base Rogue to base Warlock or we are comparing optimized builds to optimized builds (which Assassin most certainly is not) with racial bonuses, feats, subclasses etc... Besides if you are comparing optimized Rogue we aren't talking about "viable" anymore because optimized Rogue has the highest DPR of any class in the game by quite a distance.
It's not moving the goal posts, Subclass is important, I didn't bother with Rogue because Rogue base class is beating out both Archfey and Fiend Warlock. I actually said the goal posts were PHB, so eldritch smite is in fact moving the goal posts as eldritch smite is NOT 2014 PHB, it is XgtE. Further too this, I also stated the reason I didn't add anything for Warlock is because none of the subclasses add melee damage specifically, so it makes no difference between Archfey or Fiend. Now Fiend does help with survivability but that is not DPR.
Rogue has some of the best scaling damage, not necessarily the highest DPR at every level, level 5 tends to be a down point. Perhaps Rogue has the best sustained DPR but a fighter with a greatsword is going to give that a run for it's money or may even surpass it, more so with Great Weapon Master granting occasional extra attacks, going champion makes that very common, then go half-orc for harder critical hits, albeit may get to the point where Great Axe becomes a consideration. If we go outside of tasha's then Rogue is competing with this using Steady Aim and elf/half-elf for elvan accuracy.
And if you do compare it too other Warlocks, the moment you consider using pact slots for things other then Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Smite turns out too generally not be a great use of pact slots.
Which are all still available to the Blade-lock meaning my calculations above are minimums for the Blade-lock since it is using the most reliable choice not the highest DPR one. I mean just look at the Spirit Shroud option in my post above, it's easily out DPRing Rogue, and that's still limiting yourself to only single-target damage. The moment we consider multiple enemies Bladelock shoots upwards in DPR due to their access to AoE spells (though these are hard to calculate since it again depends a lot on encounter design as well as subclass for Warlock since some of their best AoEs are subclass-locked).
Depends on how you read pact of the blade, if you get a magic weapon, like a +2 or +3 weapon and bind that as your pact weapon, can you still summon weapons of other forms? And then they are also limited to +1s, so they still fall behind when you get into +2 or +3 weapons.
Spirit Shroud is a very strong option, perhaps too strong but it's also a Tasha's option and a spell. It's very late in 2014 material. Overall, it works better on a College of Swords Bard or a Paladin, one thing about Warlock is they have neither a good AC nor CON saving throws, making spells like Spirit Shroud a quiet risky endeavour. Bard at least has medium armor and gets spell slots above 5th level, Paladin gets Aura of Protection which helps. Additionally an Eldritch Blaster gets more from Spirit Shroud than a Pact of the Blade warlock, unless you have some form of Bonus Action attack and that only lasts until level 11 where Eldritch Blast at 10 foot just does more damage.
Meanwhile since we have gone as far as tasha's for this, an Arcane Trickster can use Shadow Blade which is a true good spell from XgtE which allows them to do a 2d8+DEX (up casting to 3d8+DEX for AT at 3rd/4th level), sure warlock also gets this spell but since it can't be a pact weapon, you can't use thirsting blade, eldritch smite or lifedrinker with it but rogue can sneak attack with it as it has the light property, it is also usable with an off-hand weapon too, like a +3 dagger/shortsword/handcrossbow for if you miss.
Also there is greater invisibility on Archfey, which while not helping against AoEs, does mean most creatures can't directly target you so it boosts DPR and survivability at the same time, there are many spells to consider and that is part of the reason why I limited to PHB, to reduce the number of variables and fixes WotC added after over the numerous releases that have come out since PHB, at different times.
The point is, the gap is not so much as to be unplayable. Bladelock was always fully viable, if not optimal.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The point is, the gap is not so much as to be unplayable. Bladelock was always fully viable, if not optimal.
Multiple times, I have stated now, I never used the word "unplayable", I mean something very specific when I say unusable, which is to say it's usability for players was bad. Which is again, a decided a very different term with a very different meaning.
You can play it, but it is not the most efficient or easiest way to perform the task. Most likely, we are just not going to agree on this and I feel it's gunna be a waste of time to keep on this subject, so I'm just gunna drop from it now.
The point is, the gap is not so much as to be unplayable. Bladelock was always fully viable, if not optimal.
Multiple times, I have stated now, I never used the word "unplayable", I mean something very specific when I say unusable, which is to say it's usability for players was bad. Which is again, a decided a very different term with a very different meaning.
You can play it, but it is not the most efficient or easiest way to perform the task.
Your usage is outside what people generally understand. In general English, in this context, the two are functionally synonymous.
What you seem to mean is "non-optimal" or "sub-optimal", which you personally think makes them unusable.
I didn't say it wasn't playable I said it wasn't usable...
It's 100% useable. It's suboptimal, but certainly not so bad that it cannot be used. I'd defintely play one before I played a 2014 berserker, or even a rogue or 2014 ranger.
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Tasha
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To its credit 5e has a very wide playablity range. Unless you are paying on a really hard table you can be fairly under optimized and be playable, and likely wont cause any TPKs or anything extreme. But how usable it is as you point out is not the same. You may need to either spec out a lot with feats/multi-classing or accept and enjoy being very sub par. This in general guides people away from the things that are not very usable unless they are looking for some build challenge or joke character. i am curious where people will be on things like this a year into 2024 D&D being out. We are seeing stuff online, a few people may have books, we can guess how it will all come together, but in play is where its really figured out.
I disagree that there's a distinction in the terms in this context.
That doesn't mean that the distinction you're trying to draw doesn't exist, just that trying to differentiate with those terms confuses the question.
Every class and subclass in 5e is playable (playable: functional and at least reasonably effective in an average game) without too many contortions in its default mode. The default mode of non-hexblade blade-pact is Dex fighter. The strength build, as you point out, can't sort out its armor class, so it's a much harder build to pull off. The dex build just grabs armor of shadows and is fine. Does it out-damage somebody sitting there and spamming Eldritch Blast? Perhaps not, but it doesn't need to. It's living in the realm of non-fighter melee effectiveness, and its support stuff is "being a caster".
The distinction very much matters, because It confuses the question in the wrong way, I said unusable first, I never said unplayable, I know what I meant when I used the term unusable. I very VERY much meant it from a usability perspective.
Disagree all you want with that, but again, this is all about my words and I know what context I said those words in.
Nobody said Pact of the Blade is unplayable, I started it by saying it's unusable, just to re-iterate.
The problem with a DEX-based pact of the blade warlock is it puts the Warlock within 5 foot of a target which means having to disengage or use other methods to not be stood right next to hostile creatures, that consumes action or bonus action which causes it's own issues. Further too this, the highest damage die that can be achieved is a 1d8 (rapier). You can take an off-hand weapon for two weapon fighting but pact of the blade doesn't even grant a fighting style, so you're just an inferior fighter/ranger/bladesinger at that point.
"It's living in the realm of non-fighter melee effectiveness" this is the most problematic thing, since it's really not living in that realm, the damage output is vastly subpar, the survivability is vastly supbar. To keep up a high AC and attack modifier you need high DEX, to not go down easily in combat you also need some HP so you need a good CON, then you need CHA if you want to be doing spellcasting well, it's too thinly spread with attribute scores. Nearly all of the fighter subclasses add damage to the fighter, which is not the case for Warlock until Hexblade. You have zero chance of keeping up to pace on DPR with a pact of the blade warlock using melee attacks against a battlemaster fighter.
Armor of Shadows would help, but that is quiet an invocation tax by level 11, you'd have Armor of Shadows, Thirsting Blade and Life Drinker, just to stay relevant (but not really). And the choice of Pact of the Blade is literally only to enable the ability to pick-up Thirsting Blade and Life Drinker, the pact itself was adding very little other than being a requirement for certain invocations, if you add Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite on top of that, that takes all 5 invocations at level 11. And after all of this, you'll still be on less DPR, so what's the point? This is also what I mean by a case of usability, the build gets quickly over complicated for no good reason.
As far as Armor of Shadows goes, it's mage armor, so it's 13+DEX, this is still not a good AC. If you had a +3 to DEX then you get 16, which is fair but then you're not pushing CHA enough in standard array and you're doing heavy amounts of min-maxing in point buy. At that point, why even stay with Warlock, you can start with 16AC as a Fighter or a Paladin, or 17 with fighting style. Fighter and Paladin both get methods they can use for self-healing and have D10 hit die. Barbarian has Rage and Rogue has bonus action disengage and evasive, Monk was always in a bad place in 2014, Ranger can get 16 AC pretty early and with medium armor can best that same AC. mage armor about equivilant too a +1 studded leather, it's not great, earlier game sure, it's okay but mid game and late game... it's not keeping up, it doesn't scale.
A bladelock is a rogue that's traded sneak attack for an extra attack, or a ranger in light armor. It's totally useable.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Armour of Shadows is a waste of time. Studded leather gets you 12+DEX and it's not that unlikely to get +1 armour in tier 2 play, Fiendish Vigor is a much better choice to improve survivability. Certainly a Pact of the Blade warlock must use their spell slots and invocations to match the power of a martial character but that's a good thing, they still get full caster spell progression, short-rest regenerating slots, and a bunch of invocations, if they were also just as good at using weapons as a fighter without using any of those resources then there would be no reason to ever play any other class.
Completely agree. One might argue that's the whole point of a gish...using their magic to equal the melee.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I wanted to check out this claim, so I put it in a spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TN_ROaQsJB3j2QzY2cKZkmjxtGHugZV-Z-1mzEFf6yE/edit?usp=sharing
Not going to say all these numbers are accurate and it's mostly based on 2014 PHB (things outside of PHB or DMG are generally not considered), nor are these necessarily the optimal builds.
So it's definitely not close for Rogue, Rogue is crushing Bladelock at basically every level.It's to the point that I didn't even bother checking subclass choices or calculating magic weapon differences for Rogue since a Rogue with a mundane dagger is doing more damage than a Bladelock with a +3 magic weapon at level 17.
While Ranger base class is losing against a bladelock, Hunter is beating a bladelock at Tiers 1 & 2. No PHB warlock subclass offers any beneficial damage here. Other choices for Hunter might yield more DPR overall, but have to make a number of assumptions else numbers would take literally forever to calculate. Bladelock edges out Ranger at tier 3 and tier 4, damage is relatively comparable tho.
Two weapon fighting is unsurprisingly a bad choice for bladelock (but compared anyway since Rogue and Ranger are using two weapon fighting in this sheet). Without magic weapons, Bladelock is woefully inferior to Eldritch Blast + Hex, with magic weapons it can just about edge it out with rapier and hex in all but tier 4. I am going to say the damage increase is not worth the sacrifice of going from ranged to melee, it just simply isn't, and you need to ensure your DM is going to give you magic weapons appropriate too tier.
Overall the result is that you need to be very optimized and you then need things outside of your control (like magic weapons), to ensure the build stays competitive, thus I stand by my earlier point, it is not a player-friendly choice, AKA it's not usable.
Is the bladelock smiting? Is your DW taking advantage of hex? Won't get it every round, but you're not going to need to move it every round either. Blade archer beats the EB spammer outright until the warlock gets 3 beams on the strength of smites. Rapier should be doing the same damage. If I read this right, your bladelock is still wasting time with agonizing blast? What's the warlock's cha? Lifedrinker may be in play. Darkness/devils sight may be in play for advantage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sorry but why do you have a 98% chance of pulling off sneak attack every turn for Rogue? That's completely unrealistic. Rogue makes either one attack with advantage or two attacks without advantage giving you 88% chance of pulling off sneak attack, not 98%.
Or the warlock could go fiend warlock and cast fireball which does far far more damage when hitting multiple enemies. Eldritch Smite is not bridging the gap too Rogue. The warlock is also not casting Pass without a trace to improve the chances to get surprise rounds, nor are they casting spike growth. Additionally Eldritch Smite has some very big party synergy issues, in that it knocks targets prone which can be an issue with regards to the ranged members of the party, even if it does help the melee ones. Overall I don't rate it well, and it relies mostly on crit fishing, something made easier by hexblade.
If you assume 6 encounters a day at 3 turns an encounter, then it is going to add 4d8/3 or 6 DPR, else wise if you assume 2 crits (round up from 1.8) over that adventuring day 8/6*4d8/3 or 8 dpr at level 5. This is all very optimistic tho, Overall I'd say outside of a critical hit, there is usually a better usage for Warlocks limited spellslots than Eldritch Smite, so going to the roughly 2 critical hits in this scenario it's roughly 2.25 dpr. Of course if you went with 8 encounters for 4 turns an encounter, that drops too 1.44 DPR. Alternatively what happens if you only have 1 encounter with 8 turns of combat, that really doesn't work well for Eldritch Smite.
So no the numbers do not include eldritch smite, personally I don't think it's an optimal choice and secondly it's up to interpretation to make MANY of these assumptions. There are other choices like Great Invisibility for Archfey at level 7, or normal warlock spells like Armor of Agathys or Hunger of Hadar are good choices. So I am not going for the absolute values of their optimized damage but rather their sustainable/consistent DPR.
Overall, you're sacrificing pact slots at the point of using Eldritch Smite, while the Eldritch Blaster then still has more spell slots to fall back on, they only need cast Hex once unless they use another concentration spell, so they have more versatility and utility in this situation.
EDIT: also forgot too note, as my notes said, the numbers were based on PHB, so material from outside of PHB or DMG, such as eldritch smite (XgtE) weren't considered.
Here's a more accurate comparison
Level 3:
Rogue with Two Shortswords: 2d6 Sneak (87.75% chance) + Weapon 1: 1d6 + 3 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% chance) + Critical: 3d6 (9.75% chance) = 13.6
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1: 1d6 + 3 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% change) + Critical: 1d6 (5% chance per hit) = 6.85 + Hellish Rebuke = 12.4 per casting -> if cast Hellish Rebuke every other turn Blade-lock & Rogue deal equal damage.
Blade-lock Rapier + Hex : Weapon 1: 1d8+1d6 + 3 (65% chance) + Critical: 1d8+1d6 (5% chance)= 7.55
Level 5:
Rogue with Two Shortswords: 3d6 Sneak (87.75% chance) + Weapon 1: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% chance) + Critical: 4d6 (9.75% chance) = 17.7
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Weapon 3: 1d6 (0.65% change) + Critical: 1d6 (9.75% chance) = 12.55 + Eldritch Smite: 18 -> if Eldritch Smite is cast every 3-4 turns the Blade-lock & Rogue deal equal damage.
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Hex (1d6 per hit) + Critical: 1d6+1d6 (5% chance per attack) = 16.4 on turn cast, 22 on subsequent turns.
Level 7:
Rogue with Two Shortswords: 4d6 Sneak (87.75% chance) + Weapon 1: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% chance) + Critical: 5d6 (9.75% chance) = 21.1
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Weapon 3: 1d6 (0.65% change) + Critical: 1d6 (5% chance per attack) = 12.55 + Eldritch Smite: 22.5 -> if Eldritch Smite is used once every 3 rounds Blade-lock & Rogue deal equal damage.
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 4 (65% chance) + Spirit Shroud (2d8 per hit) + Critical: 1d6+2d8 (5% chance per attack) = 22.7 on turn cast, 31.49 on subsequent turns.
Level 9:
Rogue with Two Shortswords: 5d6 Sneak (87.75% chance) + Weapon 1: 1d6 + 5 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% chance) + Critical: 6d6 (9.75% chance) = 24.5
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 5 (65% chance) + Weapon 3: 1d6 (0.65% change) + Critical: 1d6 (5% chance per attack) = 13.85 + Eldritch Smite: 27 -> if Eldritch Smite is used once every 2-3 rounds Blade-lock & Rogue deal equal damage.
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 5 (65% chance) + Spirit Shroud (2d8 per hit) + Critical: 1d6+2d8 (5% chance per attack) = 24 on turn cast, 33.8 on subsequent turns.
Level 13:
Rogue with Two Shortswords: 7d6 Sneak (87.75% chance) + Weapon 1: 1d6 + 5 (65% chance) + Weapon 2: 1d6 (0.65% chance) + Critical: 8d6 (9.75% chance) = 32
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 5 +1d6(65% chance) + Weapon 3: 1d6(0.65% change) + Critical: 1d6+1d6 (5% chance per attack) = 18.9 + Eldritch Smite: 27 -> if Eldritch Smite is used once every 2 rounds Blade-lock & Rogue deal equal damage.
Blade-lock Two Shortswords: Weapon 1 & 2: 1d6 + 1d6+5 (65% chance) + Spirit Shroud (2d8 per hit) + Critical: 2d6+2d8 (5% chance per attack) = 28.9 on turn cast, 40.1 on subsequent turns.
TL:DR - the comparison between Rogue & Bladelock massively depends on the assumptions you make about the amount of combat between short rests and the ease of achieving Sneak Attack. In short combat games Bladelock and Rogue are about equal in long combat games with easy sneak attack Rogue is the winner.
but it also depends on not using subclasses like Arcane Trickster or Assassin, where Rogue would end out a front again. But it still gets back to my initial point, since no single player is in control of exactly how many short or long rests there are, Pact of the Blade is not a good choice from a usability perspective because you're reliant on too many things that are outside of your control. For a Rogue, you are reliant on allies too but most creatures in the books generally prioritize melee over ranged and thus will usually end out within 5 foot of ally.
I will also say in this scenario the Rogue and Ranger have one massive advantage over this DEX based Warlock, which is that Rogue and Ranger are going to use the same attribute modifier for ranged attacks, so they just straight up lose less damage when not in melee where-as this Warlock who prioritized DEX is going to be worse at Eldritch Blast which needs CHA, more so since you'd need agonizing blast to keep the damage up but you need so many invocations for keeping pact of the blade relevant.
And if you do compare it too other Warlocks, the moment you consider using pact slots for things other then Eldritch Smite, Eldritch Smite turns out too generally not be a great use of pact slots. If Eldritch Smite gave one free use per long rest, then I think it'd be a much better invocation. So eldritch smite might increase melee DPR but it's still, in my opinion, a sub-optimal choice unless you're going for very specific builds, it becomes slightly better with hexblade since hexblade's curse helps get more critical hits.
Overall, we have spent A LOT of time on pact of the blade warlock, which isn't even the original point of this thread, which instead is about things that worked in 2014 but are now broken in 2024. Like multi-classing into Fighter from a spellcaster to action surge and cast two levelled spells in one turn, this no longer works in 2024.
Again this is full of assumptions which are not necessarily true. For Rogue to Sneak attack they not only need an ally within 5ft of an enemy which is far from guaranteed depending on the turn order and combat design and party composition and enemy tactics, they also need to not have disadvantage on their attacks so no poisoned, no frightened, no restraint, no blindness, no enemies using various defensive spells / features. A huge number of enemies can poison or frightened PCs and since Rogue has neither proficiency with Con nor Wis saves it is very very likely that they fail against those effects. Also note that in the above comparison I ignored the Adv from prone that comes along with Eldritch Smite since it requires quite a few assumptions to account for it.
I've both played a Rogue in a level 2-15 campaign and DMed for a rogue in a level 2-12 campaign, and a melee rogue basically can't get Sneak Attack when fighting a dragon, like ever, either they are Frightened or the Dragon is in the air or the Dragon has flown pass the frontline and allies are trying to get away from it. Oozes, and elementals that deal loads of damage to creatures nearby are likewise incredibly difficult to sneak attack because nobody wants to be next to them. Whereas more tanky melee creatures often have ways to poison or grapple + restrain. Sure if your DM like boring/simple creatures you can rely on that sneak attack every turn, but in combats with more complex creatures one sneak attack every 2 turns is more reasonable.
Players do in fact have a huge amount of control over the number of SRs they take, as there are tons of spells & strategies that can be employed to SR almost anywhere (e.g. Rope Trick). If the problem is "the rest of your party are jerks and don't let your character get SRs" that's not a problem with game design, that's a problem with your party and you should... *gasp* talk to them about it.
Don't move the goal posts. Either we are comparing base Rogue to base Warlock or we are comparing optimized builds to optimized builds (which Assassin most certainly is not) with racial bonuses, feats, subclasses etc... Besides if you are comparing optimized Rogue we aren't talking about "viable" anymore because optimized Rogue has the highest DPR of any class in the game by quite a distance.
Um... Improved Pact Weapon exists hence Pact of the Blade can use a bow just as easily as Rogue or Ranger, and in fact optimized Pact of the Blade is actually Pact of the Bow, because a Handcrossbow build is easily the most optimal way to play Pact of the Blade. I'm shocked you're bringing Ranger into this since Ranger is just Warlock without Life Drinker or Eldritch Smite so has lower DPR than Pact of the Blade.
Which are all still available to the Blade-lock meaning my calculations above are minimums for the Blade-lock since it is using the most reliable choice not the highest DPR one. I mean just look at the Spirit Shroud option in my post above, it's easily out DPRing Rogue, and that's still limiting yourself to only single-target damage. The moment we consider multiple enemies Bladelock shoots upwards in DPR due to their access to AoE spells (though these are hard to calculate since it again depends a lot on encounter design as well as subclass for Warlock since some of their best AoEs are subclass-locked).
They are if they are an Earth Genasi Dao Genie -lock. But again Spike Growth is very situational in actual play rather than on whiteboards. I've played a druid in a 3 year long campaign always with Spike Growth prepared and it is far away from my go-to spell. If the enemies have range it is useless, if you're in a small area and can't avoid hitting your allies it's mostly useless, if the enemy can fly, burrow or climb walls it is mostly useless, if you've got melee party members it is difficult to use effectively without hurting them as well, if the combat area is too big and open it is more of an inconvenience to enemies than a danger, as they will simply run around it.
The group, not a single player, has control of short rests was the point I was making, thus "single player", not every class wants to short rest at the same time and some don't really care much for short rests at all. Also some groups long rest far more than others, some long rest whenever a session ends which might only cover a third or half of a dungeon.
Yes sneak attack has issues with disadvantage but honestly, despite all these conditions, in most campaigns, a rogue is rarely going to be affected by them, Rogue also does get proficiency against WIS saves at level 15. It also gets into things like AoEs or attacks, where Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge (half incoming damage as a reaction) and Evasion, which makes them generally a lot more sustainable against AoEs or being directly targetted. For Warlock you need either fiendish vigor (where invocations are already limited for melee) or Armor of Agathys (using a pact spell slot that is no longer usable for Eldritch Smite). As such these types of numbers always work by generally the more optimistic assumptions.
It's not moving the goal posts, Subclass is important, I didn't bother with Rogue because Rogue base class is beating out both Archfey and Fiend Warlock. I actually said the goal posts were PHB, so eldritch smite is in fact moving the goal posts as eldritch smite is NOT 2014 PHB, it is XgtE. Further too this, I also stated the reason I didn't add anything for Warlock is because none of the subclasses add melee damage specifically, so it makes no difference between Archfey or Fiend. Now Fiend does help with survivability but that is not DPR.
Rogue has some of the best scaling damage, not necessarily the highest DPR at every level, level 5 tends to be a down point. Perhaps Rogue has the best sustained DPR but a fighter with a greatsword is going to give that a run for it's money or may even surpass it, more so with Great Weapon Master granting occasional extra attacks, going champion makes that very common, then go half-orc for harder critical hits, albeit may get to the point where Great Axe becomes a consideration. If we go outside of tasha's then Rogue is competing with this using Steady Aim and elf/half-elf for elvan accuracy.
Depends on how you read pact of the blade, if you get a magic weapon, like a +2 or +3 weapon and bind that as your pact weapon, can you still summon weapons of other forms? And then they are also limited to +1s, so they still fall behind when you get into +2 or +3 weapons.
Spirit Shroud is a very strong option, perhaps too strong but it's also a Tasha's option and a spell. It's very late in 2014 material. Overall, it works better on a College of Swords Bard or a Paladin, one thing about Warlock is they have neither a good AC nor CON saving throws, making spells like Spirit Shroud a quiet risky endeavour. Bard at least has medium armor and gets spell slots above 5th level, Paladin gets Aura of Protection which helps. Additionally an Eldritch Blaster gets more from Spirit Shroud than a Pact of the Blade warlock, unless you have some form of Bonus Action attack and that only lasts until level 11 where Eldritch Blast at 10 foot just does more damage.
Meanwhile since we have gone as far as tasha's for this, an Arcane Trickster can use Shadow Blade which is a true good spell from XgtE which allows them to do a 2d8+DEX (up casting to 3d8+DEX for AT at 3rd/4th level), sure warlock also gets this spell but since it can't be a pact weapon, you can't use thirsting blade, eldritch smite or lifedrinker with it but rogue can sneak attack with it as it has the light property, it is also usable with an off-hand weapon too, like a +3 dagger/shortsword/handcrossbow for if you miss.
Also there is greater invisibility on Archfey, which while not helping against AoEs, does mean most creatures can't directly target you so it boosts DPR and survivability at the same time, there are many spells to consider and that is part of the reason why I limited to PHB, to reduce the number of variables and fixes WotC added after over the numerous releases that have come out since PHB, at different times.
The point is, the gap is not so much as to be unplayable. Bladelock was always fully viable, if not optimal.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Multiple times, I have stated now, I never used the word "unplayable", I mean something very specific when I say unusable, which is to say it's usability for players was bad. Which is again, a decided a very different term with a very different meaning.
You can play it, but it is not the most efficient or easiest way to perform the task. Most likely, we are just not going to agree on this and I feel it's gunna be a waste of time to keep on this subject, so I'm just gunna drop from it now.
Your usage is outside what people generally understand. In general English, in this context, the two are functionally synonymous.
What you seem to mean is "non-optimal" or "sub-optimal", which you personally think makes them unusable.
ok, unusable is what you said.
I didn't say it wasn't playable I said it wasn't usable...
It's 100% useable. It's suboptimal, but certainly not so bad that it cannot be used. I'd defintely play one before I played a 2014 berserker, or even a rogue or 2014 ranger.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha