Crawford has stated that you can play 2014 subclasses in 2024 and this seems to be true. The issue that is making me unhappy is all the PHB rule changes that has broken how I have built and play those characters.
I have a Loxodon Beast Barb / Runeknight. Can I still play that combo. Yes. Can I still play him as a grappler using Skilled Feat to get massive numbers in Athletes to pin down three huge creatures? Nope. But that skinny arse Halfling Monk can lock them down? Yep.
Can I play a Genie Tome Lock / Aberrant Mind Sorc. Yes. With the changes to EB and invocations can I still play the cheese grater that can be useful to the party collecting rituals like rary’s and waterbreathing? Nope
The issue with 2024 isn’t subclasses that got left out, but rather rule changes that didn’t need changes just to break combinations to conform with the dumbing down of play.
I would rather not take 5 levels of Wizard on my Warlock just to replace the missing Ancient Secrets / Ritual Caster books.
Grapple builds all got broken, but Cheesegrater still works and all warlocks have ritual casting so you can still ritual cast any 1st level ritual spell you want with Tome/Ancient Secrets. If you want Waterbreathing you'll have to take that other invocation - Gift of the Depths - as well.
GWM & SS builds are also gone.
But like, that was kind of the point. The point was to refresh the game so there are new builds for people to discover and play rather than everyone getting bored playing the same builds over and over again.
Anyone that can cast new minor elementals is broken
Only if they also have multiple attacks per turn that can actually hit enemies. But yes the damage bonus available via minor elementals, is easy to exploit.
If you already have a character in play maybe your DM will allow you to continue playing them as is (2014 rules) until the campaign is over. I would if I were your DM, but you wouldn’t benefit from any 2024 rules related to your build. But things like how surprise works in 2024 I would use for everyone (2014/2024 characters alike)
I’ve heard from several people who will continue with the 2014 rules until their current campaign ends and only then switch to the new rules.
And as Agile mentioned, now you have updated rules to make different builds that may not have worked under 2014 rules.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies. That said EB is definitely still viable because it still works with Quicken Spell and since new-lock is very front loaded you can get basically everything you want by level 2 for an EB-build (3 invocations that include a pact, plus 2 recharging Hex slots), you can just MC into Sorcerer after that and have a Quicken-EB-spammer by 5th level.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies.
Why would you be knocking your enemies prone if you have fire support on your side? You'd use other masteries.
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies.
Why would you be knocking your enemies prone if you have fire support on your side? You'd use other masteries.
One would hope, but I've seen an awful lot of people just excited to knock their enemies prone all the time.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies.
Why would you be knocking your enemies prone if you have fire support on your side? You'd use other masteries.
One would hope, but I've seen an awful lot of people just excited to knock their enemies prone all the time.
So EB is bad because everyone will take weapon masteries to knock people prone and use them regardless of tactical situation? There are so many assumptions here. Why is everyone taking that mastery?
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies.
Why would you be knocking your enemies prone if you have fire support on your side? You'd use other masteries.
One would hope, but I've seen an awful lot of people just excited to knock their enemies prone all the time.
So EB is bad because everyone will take weapon masteries to knock people prone and use them regardless of tactical situation? There are so many assumptions here. Why is everyone taking that mastery?
EB spam was on the low end of damage in 2014, they upped melee damage a lot making the gap far bigger than before and adding a size limit to repelling blast they weakened the battlefield control side which made it viable in 2014. We will have to wait and see in play but i suspect the gap between melee and eldritch blast in damage will be large enough people will feel like they are not really contributing with the EB spam especially in boss fights with larger opponents.
EB spam was on the low end of damage in 2014, they upped melee damage a lot making the gap far bigger than before and adding a size limit to repelling blast they weakened the battlefield control side which made it viable in 2014. We will have to wait and see in play but i suspect the gap between melee and eldritch blast in damage will be large enough people will feel like they are not really contributing with the EB spam especially in boss fights with larger opponents.
Fortunately, it's not the only thing caster warlocks have going for them. Banishment was always my go-to.
I think what OP was asking, is what now longer works in 2024, and I'll point out the most obvious one is builds that relied on things from 1st level subclasses, such as cleric or warlock. Technically Warlock replaced Hexblade with Pact of the Blade for doing Charisma based attacks, so it's not entirely broken but with Hexblade itself being level 3, things like Paladin/Warlock are unlikely to be dipping that far into Warlock.
EB spam was on the low end of damage in 2014, they upped melee damage a lot making the gap far bigger than before and adding a size limit to repelling blast they weakened the battlefield control side which made it viable in 2014. We will have to wait and see in play but i suspect the gap between melee and eldritch blast in damage will be large enough people will feel like they are not really contributing with the EB spam especially in boss fights with larger opponents.
I am going to say that Eldritch Blast is not broken, melee was broken since it did less damage than ranged options like Eldritch Blast while potentially needing a highly level of investment and going into a more dangerous part of the battlefield which from a risk/reward standpoint makes legitimately no sense.
As a warlock you can still cast hex, use Eldritch Blast and agonizing blast for 1d10+CHA+1d6 damage per ray which is pretty decent given how number of rays scale, Warlock now gets 1 or 2 additional pact spell casts per day which does give a bit more freedom to cast some of the more powerful/impactful spells.
I am going to say that Eldritch Blast is not broken, melee was broken since it did less damage than ranged options like Eldritch Blast while potentially needing a highly level of investment and going into a more dangerous part of the battlefield which from a risk/reward standpoint makes legitimately no sense.
A dissenting opinion: Ranged combat makes no sense since most combat occurs in small rooms & hallways or in situations where the enemy is ambushing you where the enemy can easily get into melee and impose disadvantage on all your ranged attacks. Plus ranged characters have lower AC (b/c no shield and no heavy armour) and usually lower hit points. Why would you ever play a ranged character unless you got a damage boost to make up for your fragility and increased risk of taking AoO from the enemy?
Because it gives Adv to all the characters that fight in melee in the whole party, which will probably be most of them since there's very little reason to use ranged weapons anymore and spellcasters can just use saving-throw spells instead to not be hindered by the enemy being prone.
Because it gives Adv to all the characters that fight in melee in the whole party, which will probably be most of them since there's very little reason to use ranged weapons anymore and spellcasters can just use saving-throw spells instead to not be hindered by the enemy being prone.
This all feels very circular.
Anyway, plenty of people will be taking the two-weapon attack mastery. I don't even remember all the masteries, but I just don't see "knock prone" being the be-all of the whole system, especially when you have ranged casters in your party.
I am going to say that Eldritch Blast is not broken, melee was broken since it did less damage than ranged options like Eldritch Blast while potentially needing a highly level of investment and going into a more dangerous part of the battlefield which from a risk/reward standpoint makes legitimately no sense.
A dissenting opinion: Ranged combat makes no sense since most combat occurs in small rooms & hallways or in situations where the enemy is ambushing you where the enemy can easily get into melee and impose disadvantage on all your ranged attacks. Plus ranged characters have lower AC (b/c no shield and no heavy armour) and usually lower hit points. Why would you ever play a ranged character unless you got a damage boost to make up for your fragility and increased risk of taking AoO from the enemy?
When using a spell that can have repelling blast applied, when most of the ranged combatants are spell casters with things like misty step, spike growth, grease and other such effects which either impede movement, punish it or are get out jail free cards. Then when in such small positions, it's always expected that the melee characters stand in front of the ranged characters, if possible choke pointing it all out, ranged is definitely NOT the higher risk play style and never will be.
And I'd say you have things the wrong way around, I'd say that ranged characters have less AC and less HP because they are inherently lower risk roles, ranged characters would be near invincible if they had high AC and high HP but with that said, Fighter can achieve it, ranger doesn't have the worst AC or HP either and not all melees use shield, like monks, melee rogues, polearm/heavy weapon paladins/barbarians/fighters or hex/pact blade warlocks, or two melee weapon rangers. The classes that have the real lowest HP and AC are the ranged magic users and those are all well known to be vastly overpowered. I don't see enough changes in one D&D to resolve that either but time will tell.
EB spam was on the low end of damage in 2014, they upped melee damage a lot making the gap far bigger than before and adding a size limit to repelling blast they weakened the battlefield control side which made it viable in 2014. We will have to wait and see in play but i suspect the gap between melee and eldritch blast in damage will be large enough people will feel like they are not really contributing with the EB spam especially in boss fights with larger opponents.
Fortunately, it's not the only thing caster warlocks have going for them. Banishment was always my go-to.
2ish per short rest most of the time which by the time you get to the boss you might not have. They do not have the deep reserves of a full caster so need to be able to use EB as their go to. If it no longer is viable then all warlocks become pact of the blade.
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Crawford has stated that you can play 2014 subclasses in 2024 and this seems to be true. The issue that is making me unhappy is all the PHB rule changes that has broken how I have built and play those characters.
I have a Loxodon Beast Barb / Runeknight. Can I still play that combo. Yes. Can I still play him as a grappler using Skilled Feat to get massive numbers in Athletes to pin down three huge creatures? Nope. But that skinny arse Halfling Monk can lock them down? Yep.
Can I play a Genie Tome Lock / Aberrant Mind Sorc. Yes. With the changes to EB and invocations can I still play the cheese grater that can be useful to the party collecting rituals like rary’s and waterbreathing? Nope
The issue with 2024 isn’t subclasses that got left out, but rather rule changes that didn’t need changes just to break combinations to conform with the dumbing down of play.
I would rather not take 5 levels of Wizard on my Warlock just to replace the missing Ancient Secrets / Ritual Caster books.
Grapple builds all got broken, but Cheesegrater still works and all warlocks have ritual casting so you can still ritual cast any 1st level ritual spell you want with Tome/Ancient Secrets. If you want Waterbreathing you'll have to take that other invocation - Gift of the Depths - as well.
GWM & SS builds are also gone.
But like, that was kind of the point. The point was to refresh the game so there are new builds for people to discover and play rather than everyone getting bored playing the same builds over and over again.
Anyone that can cast new minor elementals is broken
Only if they also have multiple attacks per turn that can actually hit enemies. But yes the damage bonus available via minor elementals, is easy to exploit.
If you already have a character in play maybe your DM will allow you to continue playing them as is (2014 rules) until the campaign is over. I would if I were your DM, but you wouldn’t benefit from any 2024 rules related to your build. But things like how surprise works in 2024 I would use for everyone (2014/2024 characters alike)
I’ve heard from several people who will continue with the 2014 rules until their current campaign ends and only then switch to the new rules.
And as Agile mentioned, now you have updated rules to make different builds that may not have worked under 2014 rules.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
One Warlock change I am not happy with was the nerfing of Book of Shadows. Well, IMO, more like they took an axe to it. Instead of being able to learn all sorts of rituals, now (at least it's a basic part of Pact of the Tome) you are limited to two, and first level rituals only. I think Tome just became the weakest pact.
It is the weakest pact by far, and with the changes in combat i am not sure eldritch blast spam is even viable anymore, it may just be pact of the blade for all.
How so? I know melee got a boost and PotB got better, but EB or other attack cantrips that can be boosted with invocations should still work fine I would think.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Because EB doesn't get any Weapon Mastery bonuses and there isn't much that boosts EB after 2nd level, plus because enemies are probably going to be prone a lot of the time because every character is getting multiple ways to prone enemies. That said EB is definitely still viable because it still works with Quicken Spell and since new-lock is very front loaded you can get basically everything you want by level 2 for an EB-build (3 invocations that include a pact, plus 2 recharging Hex slots), you can just MC into Sorcerer after that and have a Quicken-EB-spammer by 5th level.
Why would you be knocking your enemies prone if you have fire support on your side? You'd use other masteries.
One would hope, but I've seen an awful lot of people just excited to knock their enemies prone all the time.
So EB is bad because everyone will take weapon masteries to knock people prone and use them regardless of tactical situation? There are so many assumptions here. Why is everyone taking that mastery?
EB spam was on the low end of damage in 2014, they upped melee damage a lot making the gap far bigger than before and adding a size limit to repelling blast they weakened the battlefield control side which made it viable in 2014. We will have to wait and see in play but i suspect the gap between melee and eldritch blast in damage will be large enough people will feel like they are not really contributing with the EB spam especially in boss fights with larger opponents.
Fortunately, it's not the only thing caster warlocks have going for them. Banishment was always my go-to.
I think what OP was asking, is what now longer works in 2024, and I'll point out the most obvious one is builds that relied on things from 1st level subclasses, such as cleric or warlock. Technically Warlock replaced Hexblade with Pact of the Blade for doing Charisma based attacks, so it's not entirely broken but with Hexblade itself being level 3, things like Paladin/Warlock are unlikely to be dipping that far into Warlock.
I am going to say that Eldritch Blast is not broken, melee was broken since it did less damage than ranged options like Eldritch Blast while potentially needing a highly level of investment and going into a more dangerous part of the battlefield which from a risk/reward standpoint makes legitimately no sense.
As a warlock you can still cast hex, use Eldritch Blast and agonizing blast for 1d10+CHA+1d6 damage per ray which is pretty decent given how number of rays scale, Warlock now gets 1 or 2 additional pact spell casts per day which does give a bit more freedom to cast some of the more powerful/impactful spells.
A dissenting opinion: Ranged combat makes no sense since most combat occurs in small rooms & hallways or in situations where the enemy is ambushing you where the enemy can easily get into melee and impose disadvantage on all your ranged attacks. Plus ranged characters have lower AC (b/c no shield and no heavy armour) and usually lower hit points. Why would you ever play a ranged character unless you got a damage boost to make up for your fragility and increased risk of taking AoO from the enemy?
Because it gives Adv to all the characters that fight in melee in the whole party, which will probably be most of them since there's very little reason to use ranged weapons anymore and spellcasters can just use saving-throw spells instead to not be hindered by the enemy being prone.
This all feels very circular.
Anyway, plenty of people will be taking the two-weapon attack mastery. I don't even remember all the masteries, but I just don't see "knock prone" being the be-all of the whole system, especially when you have ranged casters in your party.
When using a spell that can have repelling blast applied, when most of the ranged combatants are spell casters with things like misty step, spike growth, grease and other such effects which either impede movement, punish it or are get out jail free cards. Then when in such small positions, it's always expected that the melee characters stand in front of the ranged characters, if possible choke pointing it all out, ranged is definitely NOT the higher risk play style and never will be.
And I'd say you have things the wrong way around, I'd say that ranged characters have less AC and less HP because they are inherently lower risk roles, ranged characters would be near invincible if they had high AC and high HP but with that said, Fighter can achieve it, ranger doesn't have the worst AC or HP either and not all melees use shield, like monks, melee rogues, polearm/heavy weapon paladins/barbarians/fighters or hex/pact blade warlocks, or two melee weapon rangers. The classes that have the real lowest HP and AC are the ranged magic users and those are all well known to be vastly overpowered. I don't see enough changes in one D&D to resolve that either but time will tell.
2ish per short rest most of the time which by the time you get to the boss you might not have. They do not have the deep reserves of a full caster so need to be able to use EB as their go to. If it no longer is viable then all warlocks become pact of the blade.