How many 9th level Fighters or Barbarians can do that kind of burst damage?
Barbarians typically cannot, they don't really do burst, but for a fighter... action surge exists, a fighter using great weapon mastery and action surge with a +1 greatsword is at 68 damage (which increases to 102 damage at level 11). Hard to do with ranged, though, but a 60' cone isn't the longest of ranges.
Okay, just realized I forgot to halve my damage for saves; I'll grant 33 is not awesome, but again this is AoE; scales up with more targets. And that's if everyone makes the save- so the initial comparison to an all attacks hit Action Surge barrage holds up; buncha mooks, probably not gonna have more than +5 on DEX saves. Gives them about 50/50 of making the save with a +3 WIS mod on the caster; worse if you've picked up a Moon Sickle for the DC boost.
People get myopic about Ranger spells because they compare them to full caster options at the same tier. The spells are not supposed to make them competitive at that stage, they're supposed to be adding things like AoE options to a primarily martial setup. No, Conjure Barrage isn't as good as Fireball, and you get it later and yadda yadda yadda; but hit 3 targets with it and you're doing about 66 damage if everyone passes their DEX save, with an extra 22 per head for any additional targets. How many 9th level Fighters or Barbarians can do that kind of burst damage?
exactly,
lets look at conjure woodland beings on a Beastmaster. in 3 enemy turn
they can do, at 13;
turn 1 5d8 *3 targets (*.75 from saves) + pet d8+6*2+d6(*.65 accuracy)= 66.5(including accuracy)
turn2 5d8(just from walking around) to 3 targets, + conjure barrage 5d8*3 targets pet d8+6*2+d6 =117(including accuracy)
like other martials are no where near this aoe potential, and it gets crazier the more targets you can hit. (+16.8 per target, and double that round2) and if your prepare and precast, there is no ramp up.
and its not really new at 13, before that conjure animals works to similar effect.
outside of aoe, early on they get stuff like spiked growth, noticeably increasing dps for anyone in the group with forced movement. (the ranger can push 20 ft with heavyxbow,)
Okay, just realized I forgot to halve my damage for saves; I'll grant 33 is not awesome, but again this is AoE; scales up with more targets. And that's if everyone makes the save- so the initial comparison to an all attacks hit Action Surge barrage holds up; buncha mooks, probably not gonna have more than +5 on DEX saves. Gives them about 50/50 of making the save with a +3 WIS mod on the caster; worse if you've picked up a Moon Sickle for the DC boost.
its half damage on save,
lets say at 11
so assuming they save 50% of the time its .5(100%)+.5(50%) or .75 or 16.8 per target, or 50.7 on 3 targets including accuracy.
the fighter, with a gwm cleave is I(6.5+5+4)*3 + (6.5+4 cleave))*.65 =37.5
How many 9th level Fighters or Barbarians can do that kind of burst damage?
Barbarians typically cannot, they don't really do burst, but for a fighter... action surge exists, a fighter using great weapon mastery and action surge with a +1 greatsword is at 68 damage (which increases to 102 damage at level 11). Hard to do with ranged, though, but a 60' cone isn't the longest of ranges.
as pointed out in the above post, the ranger can beat that burst damage, except it gets stronger after the first round. and that is including accuracy, and without a magic item.
including accuracy that 68 is is 68*.7 + .3(20 graze)= 50.8
so basically they can action surge to match one round of conjure barrage, but ranger has 2 conjure barrages at level 9 and their basic damage is higher than fighters non action surge damage due to HM.
and at 11+. 80.4 burst
which isnt messing with woodland creatures+barrage. and subjobs.
People get myopic about Ranger spells because they compare them to full caster options at the same tier. The spells are not supposed to make them competitive at that stage, they're supposed to be adding things like AoE options to a primarily martial setup. No, Conjure Barrage isn't as good as Fireball, and you get it later and yadda yadda yadda; but hit 3 targets with it and you're doing about 66 damage if everyone passes their DEX save, with an extra 22 per head for any additional targets. How many 9th level Fighters or Barbarians can do that kind of burst damage?
This is an important point. Ranger is by far the most versatile martial-style class. They get some healing spells, some battlefield control spells, some AoE spells, some summoning spells, they are DEX-based so are equally adept at long-range damage as close-quarters fighting, they get full martial proficiencies but also Expertise and skill proficiencies to give them lots of out-of-combat options.
2024 has somewhat diluted this, not by making Ranger bad, but by giving many of these unique abilities to other martial classes.
Depends the initial 2024 playtests we used them fairly straight with how we played, this one since we have an existing game we do more as a one shot so that plays diffeent.
Total aside but noble genies chr defense is what a warlocks armor of shadows should have been make it a level 5 invocation or something, though the warlock version I think it should require no armor like the other unarmored defenses I get why not for a Paladin who is supposed to be a tank.
Well there's a 2025 Forgotten Realms sourcebook coming out, so I am certain that we'll see something. I can't imagine everything scored well enough that it's just good to go out of the box unless they think they can hit the mark with one edit.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I mean, that’s what they’ve done with previous sourcebook subclasses- one pass through UA and they go from there. Hopefully most things polled well- the only one I had particular issue with was the PDK.
I feel like this one really needed one more round of testing, but if that is the norm then I will simply hope for the best.
I agree with this. I think they needed a bit more. Ace of Rogues is likely correct that it's not going to happen, but here we are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Agreed, and further, looking at the 2025 UAs vs what we got in the actual books they are likely to back off a fair amount on what the subclasses actually look like. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pulled the PDK completely and held it out for a later book with a different realm. The others are likely to be toned down.
I feel like this one really needed one more round of testing, but if that is the norm then I will simply hope for the best.
I agree with this. I think they needed a bit more. Ace of Rogues is likely correct that it's not going to happen, but here we are.
I think the difference from WotC point of view is this isn’t the PHB UA where class and subclass could use multiple passes to get the new version players liked. These are just subclasses and one pass is good enough for them.
It is my understanding that Greg Bilsland was pretty instrumental in the playtest process for 5e. Now that he is back, do you think that will have an impact on the UA process at all?
Honestly, I think it depends on their release cadence and schedule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Barbarians typically cannot, they don't really do burst, but for a fighter... action surge exists, a fighter using great weapon mastery and action surge with a +1 greatsword is at 68 damage (which increases to 102 damage at level 11). Hard to do with ranged, though, but a 60' cone isn't the longest of ranges.
Okay, just realized I forgot to halve my damage for saves; I'll grant 33 is not awesome, but again this is AoE; scales up with more targets. And that's if everyone makes the save- so the initial comparison to an all attacks hit Action Surge barrage holds up; buncha mooks, probably not gonna have more than +5 on DEX saves. Gives them about 50/50 of making the save with a +3 WIS mod on the caster; worse if you've picked up a Moon Sickle for the DC boost.
exactly,
lets look at conjure woodland beings on a Beastmaster. in 3 enemy turn
they can do, at 13;
turn 1 5d8 *3 targets (*.75 from saves) + pet d8+6*2+d6(*.65 accuracy)= 66.5(including accuracy)
turn2 5d8(just from walking around) to 3 targets, + conjure barrage 5d8*3 targets pet d8+6*2+d6 =117(including accuracy)
like other martials are no where near this aoe potential, and it gets crazier the more targets you can hit. (+16.8 per target, and double that round2) and if your prepare and precast, there is no ramp up.
and its not really new at 13, before that conjure animals works to similar effect.
outside of aoe, early on they get stuff like spiked growth, noticeably increasing dps for anyone in the group with forced movement. (the ranger can push 20 ft with heavyxbow,)
other martials cant do stuff like this
its half damage on save,
lets say at 11
so assuming they save 50% of the time its .5(100%)+.5(50%) or .75 or 16.8 per target, or 50.7 on 3 targets including accuracy.
the fighter, with a gwm cleave is I(6.5+5+4)*3 + (6.5+4 cleave))*.65 =37.5
so yeah its actually pretty on point
as pointed out in the above post, the ranger can beat that burst damage, except it gets stronger after the first round. and that is including accuracy, and without a magic item.
including accuracy that 68 is is 68*.7 + .3(20 graze)= 50.8
so basically they can action surge to match one round of conjure barrage, but ranger has 2 conjure barrages at level 9 and their basic damage is higher than fighters non action surge damage due to HM.
and at 11+. 80.4 burst
which isnt messing with woodland creatures+barrage. and subjobs.
Literally can't fill out the survey. Halfway through the classes the screen will freeze or go all blank when loading the next page.
This is an important point. Ranger is by far the most versatile martial-style class. They get some healing spells, some battlefield control spells, some AoE spells, some summoning spells, they are DEX-based so are equally adept at long-range damage as close-quarters fighting, they get full martial proficiencies but also Expertise and skill proficiencies to give them lots of out-of-combat options.
2024 has somewhat diluted this, not by making Ranger bad, but by giving many of these unique abilities to other martial classes.
So, fresh question on topic: Do the UA playtests change the way you play? Do they change the classes or backgrounds or species you want to choose?
Speaking of, what do you feel are the most reasonable BGs for the playtest subclasses?
Obviously, Noble Genie Paladin is Charlatan though it appears it's meant to be Noble..
Depends the initial 2024 playtests we used them fairly straight with how we played, this one since we have an existing game we do more as a one shot so that plays diffeent.
Total aside but noble genies chr defense is what a warlocks armor of shadows should have been make it a level 5 invocation or something, though the warlock version I think it should require no armor like the other unarmored defenses I get why not for a Paladin who is supposed to be a tank.
I am beginning to think that we aren't going to see a second pass on this one.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Well there's a 2025 Forgotten Realms sourcebook coming out, so I am certain that we'll see something. I can't imagine everything scored well enough that it's just good to go out of the box unless they think they can hit the mark with one edit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I mean, that’s what they’ve done with previous sourcebook subclasses- one pass through UA and they go from there. Hopefully most things polled well- the only one I had particular issue with was the PDK.
I feel like this one really needed one more round of testing, but if that is the norm then I will simply hope for the best.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I agree with this. I think they needed a bit more. Ace of Rogues is likely correct that it's not going to happen, but here we are.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Agreed, and further, looking at the 2025 UAs vs what we got in the actual books they are likely to back off a fair amount on what the subclasses actually look like. I wouldn’t be surprised if they pulled the PDK completely and held it out for a later book with a different realm. The others are likely to be toned down.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think the difference from WotC point of view is this isn’t the PHB UA where class and subclass could use multiple passes to get the new version players liked. These are just subclasses and one pass is good enough for them.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
It is my understanding that Greg Bilsland was pretty instrumental in the playtest process for 5e. Now that he is back, do you think that will have an impact on the UA process at all?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Honestly, I think it depends on their release cadence and schedule.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha