beside that bracers of defense are rare how many have really seen bracers of defense dropped in a game and how many have seen armors +1 - +3 of all kinds light, medium, heavy
i would be betting at least 5-10x more often does armor drop then bracers of defense, not to mention when medium armor drops it will be much more easier for you to get that armor, or a shield ( most don't use shields ), for a bracer of defense you will be fighting with : barbarians, sorcerers, wizards, monks and if it is a group decision you can bet you will be at the bottom of these 3 classes to get the bracers.
And as some already said, needing to have access to a rare magical item to put a minor fix on the AC issue is bad design ....
As for the why should a hexblade need more ac as monks, rogues, bards ..... - bards, wizards, sorcerers get shield spell ( and have more then enough spell slots ) - rogues have cunning action which lets them disengage from melee - monks have patient defense which lets them disengage from melee - figther, paladin, clerics have heavy armor and can use a shield - barbarians have unarmored defense and damage resistance - druid can shape shift to bolster HP and cast spells
- Rangers & Warlocks ( Rangers have med. armor + shield tough ) have no tools to get away from melee in their class / subclass which is why the hexblade as the class supposed to be in melee needs at least the same armor prof's as a ranger
In the games i lead i ignore plainly this UA version of the hexblade and use a converted to 2024 version of the 5e hexblade. Should a player ever really want to play this version of the UA hexblade i recommend him to take a paladin / fighter dip
sidenote: imo a 1/19 Paladin/Fiend, 1/19 Paladin/Celestial will outperform a 1/19 hexblade or 20 hexblade in each and every tier of play, with 6/14 its the same as with 1/19
a little dpR calc for a 1/19 Celestial : 86 dpR with greatsword, add another +74 burst if something needs to die now not adj. for hit chance though
Agreed. I am done arguing with people trying to convince me that the UA hexblade is good and well designed. Its terrible and anyone who has a grasp of the game knows it. Hopefully WoTc got enough REAL feedback from people like us and they give hexblade another UA, hopefully a half decent one this time, before release.
The assumption that magic items are superfluous is not consistent with the other guidelines "The D&D game assumes that magic items appear sporadically and that they are a boon unless an item bears a curse." "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20."
So, no, D&D is assumed to operate with a certain amount of magic items and that those items have an impact.
Page 136 of Xanathar's supports my argument and states explicitly what's implicit in the 2014 DMG, emphasis mine:
Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As a DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.
This is the very definition of superfluous. They are not needed.
This sidebar seems to be missing from the D&D Beyond version of Xanathar's, which is puzzling. But it's right there in the print version, stating explicitly what I said: 5E (both versions) is designed so that magic items are superfluous.
beside that bracers of defense are rare how many have really seen bracers of defense dropped in a game and how many have seen armors +1 - +3 of all kinds light, medium, heavy
i would be betting at least 5-10x more often does armor drop then bracers of defense, not to mention when medium armor drops it will be much more easier for you to get that armor, or a shield ( most don't use shields ), for a bracer of defense you will be fighting with : barbarians, sorcerers, wizards, monks and if it is a group decision you can bet you will be at the bottom of these 3 classes to get the bracers.
And as some already said, needing to have access to a rare magical item to put a minor fix on the AC issue is bad design ....
As for the why should a hexblade need more ac as monks, rogues, bards ..... - bards, wizards, sorcerers get shield spell ( and have more then enough spell slots ) - rogues have cunning action which lets them disengage from melee - monks have patient defense which lets them disengage from melee - figther, paladin, clerics have heavy armor and can use a shield - barbarians have unarmored defense and damage resistance - druid can shape shift to bolster HP and cast spells
- Rangers & Warlocks ( Rangers have med. armor + shield tough ) have no tools to get away from melee in their class / subclass which is why the hexblade as the class supposed to be in melee needs at least the same armor prof's as a ranger
In the games i lead i ignore plainly this UA version of the hexblade and use a converted to 2024 version of the 5e hexblade. Should a player ever really want to play this version of the UA hexblade i recommend him to take a paladin / fighter dip
sidenote: imo a 1/19 Paladin/Fiend, 1/19 Paladin/Celestial will outperform a 1/19 hexblade or 20 hexblade in each and every tier of play, with 6/14 its the same as with 1/19
a little dpR calc for a 1/19 Celestial : 86 dpR with greatsword, add another +74 burst if something needs to die now not adj. for hit chance though
What magic items appear in a game, has more to do with the DM than any other factor.
the only method where bracers might be considered less common is random drops. Which is still a DM choice. And even in that case, in 2024 random items are based on monster type, so its still heavily influenced by the DM. In the case where the DM is rolling magic items, its fairly unlikely you will get any specific item you want. whether its 2 % or 4%, (this is the actual difference in rate in the 2024 d100 tables) If you arent rolling like 30 magic items, of the right treasure type per level range, which seems unlikely, you are not likely to see either one. And then its decided by the group who gets what.
No one has said magical items would fix anything related to hexblade or balance. My contention is that hexblade doesnt need more than 18 Ac to be viable.
And to be 100% clear, I am not the one bringing magic items into this. My analysis and playtests all had no magic items assumed. Someone said that a flaw of hexblade and unarmored defenses is that you cant upgrade their AC via magic items, which is not true. bracers are the same rarity as armor+1. If you arent getting them, its due to a choice of the DM. If the dm is using, magic shops, whishlists, or crafting you are just as likely to get them as any other item of its rarity.
As for comparing defenses;
warlocks have spells, and defense boosters from invocations.
warlock has:
invocations:
armor of shadows (essentially medium armor AC with low investment, and heavy armor AC with high investment)
fiendish vigor, which essentially means +12 max HP from level 2, which you cant upgrade their cast in battle in emergencies
lessons of the first ones: which can give you things like lucky (force rerolls), tough (increase ho by 2 per level), musician inspiration to everyone (aka save rerolls) or magic initiate which gives can give you low level defensive spells of your choice and cantrips, and castings of it.
lifedrinker: 4.5+ con hp recovery per turn, using hit dice.
Pact of the chain, which includes summons which can give a bonus to saves, and one that can frightern enenemies(if you get investment)
repelling blast: which can push creatures away, (reduces need to disengage, doesnt cost a BA) (muti creatures if you chose eldritch blast)
gift of protectors: avoid death once.
spells:
blade ward, essentially +2.5 AC on average versus melee attacks. a cantrip, so infinite use.
any level 1 spell or cantrip, from the cleric, wizard, druid list (via initiate) or ritual(tome) that has defensive application
arms of hadar (disables reactions)
Bane (reduces hit rate)
protection from evil/good
armor of agathys
darkness (+devil sight)
mirror image
fear
magic circle
summon fey (darkness every turn)
synaptic static
shadow of moil
then the classic control spells, hold series, hypnotic pattern, hideous laughter, banishment
many of these spells effects can last or drastically change the whole enconter in terms of mitigating damage.
As for how many spells they have, the warlock doesnt need to cast tons of spells per encounter, they have strong baseline damage and defenses from invocations. and class features. Many of their spells are designed to give lasting benefits, which are more efficient in terms if effectiveness per spell slot.
they also have more high teir spells per day for their level than other casters, until like level 11 (but still more level 5 spells than anyone after that), unless the DM will never let your party get at least one short rest per day. Which to be 100% honest is probably ridiculously unbalanced DMing. Especially since taking a SR is meant to be mostly a player initiated activity (which the dm could interrupt, but should not interupt 100% of the time) with even 1 SR, the warlock gets 5 top teir spells per day from level 2-10, which sorcerer, wizard, druid, bard will not have, even if they use arcane recovery/sacrifice spell points.
but the point is, Warlocks have tons of very powerful and useful active defenses,
But this paradigm of getting away from melee, is not a common melee paradigm. Hexblade, as presented in this UA would rarely want to escape melee. Monks/fighters/barbarians in 2024 are not trying to escape melee. the main point of disengage is getting to the guy you want to melee for a monk, or possibly helping/saving a team member. The only class who can disengage as a common strategy without huge downsides is rogue, and thats because it has both a BA disengage AND has like 4/5ths of its offense in its main action. (unlike monk who loses half its DPR if it uses disengage)
Hexblade doesnt have an issue taking enemy attention, and in fact, its better if they target the hexblade than most casters, 3/4ths of the barbarians, rogues, rangers, most fighters,
because they can have up to 18 Ac baseline, 20 with accursed shield, they can have high temp HP boosts at the start of any fight, tough feat and lucky feat, They have the aformentioned defensive options. They deal damage if they get hit (unyielding will) and reduce damage (armor of hexes)
if the hexblade is running away, its fairly likely someone else with less mitigation is taking the hit.
now its totally possible to make a hexblade or warlock with a lot less defensive potential, who fears melee. but thats a choice.
RE: your sidenote, exactly by what metric are you suggesting those builds outperform hexblade? and explain how its the case.you also say in every teir of play, but only mention level 20.
celestial patron provides exactly 1 damage buff once per round, + Cha modifier once per round and only on damage from a spell which does radiant or fire damage. it only provides 2 defense buffs, temp HP once per day, and resistence to radiant damage. celestial spirit can reduce damage taken by 5.5 avg per round.
hexblade unyielding will provides avg of 7-14 damage per round (1 to 2ntargets) 2 AC in melee with your enemy, -10-20 damage taken, 25% greater chance for an enemy to fail a save, like say staggering strike. +.05* dice from attacks per round (19 crit)
and, always being behind on levels means always losing out on something useful for warlocks, they will be one spell level behind half the time, and features behind the other half.
By level 20, the only thing a paladin dip provides is 2 level 1 spells, weapon mastery, and lay on hands with a pool of 5 hp. As boring as the warlock level 20 feature may be, its objectively 2 more level 5 spells per day. Which is objectively way more valuable that lay on hands 5 hp and 2 level 1 spells. it all comes down to weapon mastery. in which case i would say fighter is a better dip.
also, those numbers of DPR not including accuracy are not special. really, any warlock with gwm gets 81. any warlock with dual wielder/weapon mastery nick can get 77.5, any warlock with shadow blade and dual wielder/nick gets, gets 90.5
the bonus from crits on 19 can be between 2.5- 9 on average depending on which of the aformentioned styles you choose, of which the highest is dual wielding shadow blade. so essentially 4-8 dpr from that feature. 7 from unyielding will
celestial is a fine warlock, if your goal is to support the team with recovery effects, giving up damage occaisionally. but there is no particular reason to do that as a melee build. and no benefit to taking or dealing damage or debuffing targets over the hexblade. every heal spell could be another spell. Hexblade recovers 22.5 to 47.5 hp per day via hexcurse, depending on your charisma, the celestial recovers 14-73 depending on level. (btw they wont recover more hp per day with that feature until level 14)
essentially hexblade is more durable, better damage and debuffs(hindering hex) with a spell list that better supports the playstyle.
fiend has better hp recovery but on average worse mitigation Hurl through hell dpr wise is like using explosive hex on 4 targets. id say hurl through hell is superior, but nit suoerior enough to say its a better melee build, it has no other features that increase dpr over the course of a day, and its spell list isnt designed to work well with martial play. It plays best as a turret, not a mobile attacker/defender
The assumption that magic items are superfluous is not consistent with the other guidelines "The D&D game assumes that magic items appear sporadically and that they are a boon unless an item bears a curse." "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20."
So, no, D&D is assumed to operate with a certain amount of magic items and that those items have an impact.
Page 136 of Xanathar's supports my argument and states explicitly what's implicit in the 2014 DMG, emphasis mine:
Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As a DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.
This is the very definition of superfluous. They are not needed.
This sidebar seems to be missing from the D&D Beyond version of Xanathar's, which is puzzling. But it's right there in the print version, stating explicitly what I said: 5E (both versions) is designed so that magic items are superfluous.
Xanathar's predates and is superseded by the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. I get what you are saying, but there is a standard that has been set by official published books and the notion that D&D is designed around characters without magic items is a case of "do what I say, not what I do." If you play through official modules, you will get +X attack items, +X defense items, and a host of other items. "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20. The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play." (DMG 2024) This sets the standard. To say otherwise is dishonest, not on your part, but on Xanathar's and the DMG. You're welcome to play a low magic or high magic setting within D&D, but anything that deviates from established norms of D&D should be reviewed in session 0. (I would suggest reviewing even standard fare, just to manage expectations.)
I agree with your earlier statement that a "fix needs to come in the features of the subclass itself." However, magic items must also be taken into account, as avenues for power scaling, as options for rounding out a character, or as potential abuses that need may warrant action.
beside that bracers of defense are rare how many have really seen bracers of defense dropped in a game and how many have seen armors +1 - +3 of all kinds light, medium, heavy
i would be betting at least 5-10x more often does armor drop then bracers of defense, not to mention when medium armor drops it will be much more easier for you to get that armor, or a shield ( most don't use shields ), for a bracer of defense you will be fighting with : barbarians, sorcerers, wizards, monks and if it is a group decision you can bet you will be at the bottom of these 3 classes to get the bracers.
And as some already said, needing to have access to a rare magical item to put a minor fix on the AC issue is bad design ....
As for the why should a hexblade need more ac as monks, rogues, bards ..... - bards, wizards, sorcerers get shield spell ( and have more then enough spell slots ) - rogues have cunning action which lets them disengage from melee - monks have patient defense which lets them disengage from melee - figther, paladin, clerics have heavy armor and can use a shield - barbarians have unarmored defense and damage resistance - druid can shape shift to bolster HP and cast spells
- Rangers & Warlocks ( Rangers have med. armor + shield tough ) have no tools to get away from melee in their class / subclass which is why the hexblade as the class supposed to be in melee needs at least the same armor prof's as a ranger
In the games i lead i ignore plainly this UA version of the hexblade and use a converted to 2024 version of the 5e hexblade. Should a player ever really want to play this version of the UA hexblade i recommend him to take a paladin / fighter dip
sidenote: imo a 1/19 Paladin/Fiend, 1/19 Paladin/Celestial will outperform a 1/19 hexblade or 20 hexblade in each and every tier of play, with 6/14 its the same as with 1/19
a little dpR calc for a 1/19 Celestial : 86 dpR with greatsword, add another +74 burst if something needs to die now not adj. for hit chance though
What magic items appear in a game, has more to do with the DM than any other factor.
the only method where bracers might be considered less common is random drops. Which is still a DM choice. And even in that case, in 2024 random items are based on monster type, so its still heavily influenced by the DM. In the case where the DM is rolling magic items, its fairly unlikely you will get any specific item you want. whether its 2 % or 4%, (this is the actual difference in rate in the 2024 d100 tables) If you arent rolling like 30 magic items, of the right treasure type per level range, which seems unlikely, you are not likely to see either one. And then its decided by the group who gets what.
No one has said magical items would fix anything related to hexblade or balance. My contention is that hexblade doesnt need more than 18 Ac to be viable.
And to be 100% clear, I am not the one bringing magic items into this. My analysis and playtests all had no magic items assumed. Someone said that a flaw of hexblade and unarmored defenses is that you cant upgrade their AC via magic items, which is not true. bracers are the same rarity as armor+1. If you arent getting them, its due to a choice of the DM. If the dm is using, magic shops, whishlists, or crafting you are just as likely to get them as any other item of its rarity.
As for comparing defenses;
warlocks have spells, and defense boosters from invocations.
warlock has:
invocations:
armor of shadows (essentially medium armor AC with low investment, and heavy armor AC with high investment)
fiendish vigor, which essentially means +12 max HP from level 2, which you cant upgrade their cast in battle in emergencies
lessons of the first ones: which can give you things like lucky (force rerolls), tough (increase ho by 2 per level), musician inspiration to everyone (aka save rerolls) or magic initiate which gives can give you low level defensive spells of your choice and cantrips, and castings of it.
lifedrinker: 4.5+ con hp recovery per turn, using hit dice.
Pact of the chain, which includes summons which can give a bonus to saves, and one that can frightern enenemies(if you get investment)
repelling blast: which can push creatures away, (reduces need to disengage, doesnt cost a BA) (muti creatures if you chose eldritch blast)
gift of protectors: avoid death once.
spells:
blade ward, essentially +2.5 AC on average versus melee attacks. a cantrip, so infinite use.
any level 1 spell or cantrip, from the cleric, wizard, druid list (via initiate) or ritual(tome) that has defensive application
arms of hadar (disables reactions)
Bane (reduces hit rate)
protection from evil/good
armor of agathys
darkness (+devil sight)
mirror image
fear
magic circle
summon fey (darkness every turn)
synaptic static
shadow of moil
then the classic control spells, hold series, hypnotic pattern, hideous laughter, banishment
many of these spells effects can last or drastically change the whole enconter in terms of mitigating damage.
As for how many spells they have, the warlock doesnt need to cast tons of spells per encounter, they have strong baseline damage and defenses from invocations. and class features. Many of their spells are designed to give lasting benefits, which are more efficient in terms if effectiveness per spell slot.
they also have more high teir spells per day for their level than other casters, until like level 11 (but still more level 5 spells than anyone after that), unless the DM will never let your party get at least one short rest per day. Which to be 100% honest is probably ridiculously unbalanced DMing. Especially since taking a SR is meant to be mostly a player initiated activity (which the dm could interrupt, but should not interupt 100% of the time) with even 1 SR, the warlock gets 5 top teir spells per day from level 2-10, which sorcerer, wizard, druid, bard will not have, even if they use arcane recovery/sacrifice spell points.
but the point is, Warlocks have tons of very powerful and useful active defenses,
But this paradigm of getting away from melee, is not a common melee paradigm. Hexblade, as presented in this UA would rarely want to escape melee. Monks/fighters/barbarians in 2024 are not trying to escape melee. the main point of disengage is getting to the guy you want to melee for a monk, or possibly helping/saving a team member. The only class who can disengage as a common strategy without huge downsides is rogue, and thats because it has both a BA disengage AND has like 4/5ths of its offense in its main action. (unlike monk who loses half its DPR if it uses disengage)
Hexblade doesnt have an issue taking enemy attention, and in fact, its better if they target the hexblade than most casters, 3/4ths of the barbarians, rogues, rangers, most fighters,
because they can have up to 18 Ac baseline, 20 with accursed shield, they can have high temp HP boosts at the start of any fight, tough feat and lucky feat, They have the aformentioned defensive options. They deal damage if they get hit (unyielding will) and reduce damage (armor of hexes)
if the hexblade is running away, its fairly likely someone else with less mitigation is taking the hit.
now its totally possible to make a hexblade or warlock with a lot less defensive potential, who fears melee. but thats a choice.
RE: your sidenote, exactly by what metric are you suggesting those builds outperform hexblade? and explain how its the case.you also say in every teir of play, but only mention level 20.
celestial patron provides exactly 1 damage buff once per round, + Cha modifier once per round and only on damage from a spell which does radiant or fire damage. it only provides 2 defense buffs, temp HP once per day, and resistence to radiant damage. celestial spirit can reduce damage taken by 5.5 avg per round.
hexblade unyielding will provides avg of 7-14 damage per round (1 to 2ntargets) 2 AC in melee with your enemy, -10-20 damage taken, 25% greater chance for an enemy to fail a save, like say staggering strike. +.05* dice from attacks per round (19 crit)
and, always being behind on levels means always losing out on something useful for warlocks, they will be one spell level behind half the time, and features behind the other half.
By level 20, the only thing a paladin dip provides is 2 level 1 spells, weapon mastery, and lay on hands with a pool of 5 hp. As boring as the warlock level 20 feature may be, its objectively 2 more level 5 spells per day. Which is objectively way more valuable that lay on hands 5 hp and 2 level 1 spells. it all comes down to weapon mastery. in which case i would say fighter is a better dip.
also, those numbers of DPR not including accuracy are not special. really, any warlock with gwm gets 81. any warlock with dual wielder/weapon mastery nick can get 77.5, any warlock with shadow blade and dual wielder/nick gets, gets 90.5
the bonus from crits on 19 can be between 2.5- 9 on average depending on which of the aformentioned styles you choose, of which the highest is dual wielding shadow blade. so essentially 4-8 dpr from that feature. 7 from unyielding will
celestial is a fine warlock, if your goal is to support the team with recovery effects, giving up damage occaisionally. but there is no particular reason to do that as a melee build. and no benefit to taking or dealing damage or debuffing targets over the hexblade. every heal spell could be another spell. Hexblade recovers 22.5 to 47.5 hp per day via hexcurse, depending on your charisma, the celestial recovers 14-73 depending on level. (btw they wont recover more hp per day with that feature until level 14)
essentially hexblade is more durable, better damage and debuffs(hindering hex) with a spell list that better supports the playstyle.
fiend has better hp recovery but on average worse mitigation Hurl through hell dpr wise is like using explosive hex on 4 targets. id say hurl through hell is superior, but nit suoerior enough to say its a better melee build, it has no other features that increase dpr over the course of a day, and its spell list isnt designed to work well with martial play. It plays best as a turret, not a mobile attacker/defender
Spells and invocations are not a substitute for a good base AC, that is always on, can't be removed in 99% of cases and does not require additional or limited resources to use. Spells are the warlock feature, what they do to play the game, if your defense of not giving warlock hexblade good is AC is that 'use spells for defense instead of other things' then you have completely lost the plot. IF I'm using my spells and resources just to exist in melee, then might as well take fighter, exist better in melee and have more features that boost my dmg and defense more than any of the things warlock has access to, since I am still not getting spells to do with as I please anyway not to mention most of the spells you mention are concentration spells, which can be dropped.
By what metric do you compare armor of shadows to medium armor? Armor of shadows is a +1 studded leather, which with 14 DEX gets you 15 AC which is garbage for a character who wants to exist primarily in melee. Half-plate gets you 17 with the same stat, THAT is medium armor. Saying that warlock can get a baseline of 18 AC is where your argument becomes completely invalid and you prove my point that you are either a bladelock hater or just have no business testing material because you have no idea what good design or balance remotely is. Do not take this personally but stick to playing at casual tables, testing and evaluating material is not for you.
For warlock to get 18 AC (which can be improved to 20 with accursed shield) you mean that you take armor of shadows (another invocation tax but will not get into that), and put 20 in DEX. If I am putting 20 in DEX, it means I am semi-dumping CHA and at that point everything warlock has (including the spells that by your metric are what you are using for defense) becomes absolutely dreadful because most things scale with CHA. If I want to max DEX I am better off playing rouge, fighter with dual wield, paladin with dual wield (and genie), Monk, or a 1000 other things before taking hexblade and maxing out DEX (with this metric you get like 1 or 2 uses of hexbaldes curse, so you ain't getting accursed shield most of the time anyway, spell save DC becomes non-existent so the feature you praised so much harrowing hex becomes almost useless because most spells you are casting as an action require a saving throw).
Warlock can't be durable without maxing DEX and at that point the rest of the features seize to function.
At every turn you keep convincing me that you have no idea what you are talking about, either you did not really playtest and are making up scenarios based on a very wrong and misguided opinion, you played at a very casual table where monsters where hitting you with pillows, or you rolled for stats and started the game with inflated stats. With point buy the best you are looking at is STR 13, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 9, CHA 17 (if you want GWM) or STR 8, DEX 14/16, CON 14/16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 17. This mean your armor of shadows is not giving you more than 15-16 AC and your CON isn't that great if you want to get the 16 DEX, which means you might drop concentration sometimes and relying on CON spells for increased survivability (which is what you keep going back to every single time you try to defend this hexblade), becomes a liability not a guarantee.
The dmg from Unyielding Will and Exploding hex don't scale and are negligible (avrg of 7 dmg for will and 10.5 for exploding hex as a lvl 14 feature), only increasing based on the number of enemies around which is not a great metric to assess dmg boosting abilities, not to mention unyielding will relies on being hit and not failing the CON save and exploding hex is a once per day thing which means its a consolation prize at best. And saying the hexblade comes with the shield spell is not saying much considering you get it when you already have 2nd level slots which you might be ok with using them for shield, but that lasts for exactly 2 levels after which you get 3rd level spell slots which you definitely are not gonna be using for shield. As a TRUE warlock enjoyer, I can assure you most of us would rather fall unconscious then use a 3rd level slot for shield. Most of the 'powerful' active defensive abilities you mentioned are tied to the same resource, spells, which you have exactly 2 of until lvl 11 and in an actual game of DnD you do not get to short rest after every single encounter, you have to manage those very limited resources.
Lifedrinker needs you to roll hit dice every time, meaning its not and once per turn 4.5+con heal, its a once per turn, up to your level number of times per long rest, heal, which is much worse than what you are trying to make it out to be.
Paladin/fighter dips don't provide much at level 20 true, but I would rather start with armor prof and push back everything a level than rely on bandaid fixes to my paper AC while trying to be in melee, and multiclassing should never feel force, it should be a choice the player makes when they want to create a fantasy which the base classes and their subclasses do not capture entirely (ex. 2014 hexblade + paladin vengence or oathbreaker to make a DeathKnight style of character).
At the end of the day everything you mentioned above, is available to the base warlock class, everything except accursed shield, which means an blastlock can get everything plus add an extra layer of free consistent protection by staying 120+ feet away from the enemy instead of tempting fate with a measly +2 to AC while being in the heat of things. The bottom line is that this hexblade does not provide nearly enough tools to convince anyone (apart from you apparently) to pick it up and go into melee, instead of dipping fighter or paladin and picking literally any other subclass (archfey provides a 100 teems more defensive tools and utility then this hexblade does). The actual hexblade subclass provides one defensive tool at level 3, tied to yet another limited resource, which has 2 very restrictive conditions to use, accursed shield, which by all metrics and in the opinion of ALL actual bladelock enjoyers, is one of the worst features ever seen on a subclass. Armor of hexes is the 2nd defensive tool, but it comes in way too late for what it does, it scales poorly because dmg scales much quicker at later levels and is yet again tied to a limited resource and is also restricted by the fact in can only be used against a specific target making it not reliable. In this state hexblade is definitely one of the worst choices for a melee warlock, and since it is designed to be exactly that, it makes it redundant and useless, and when a subclass is not picked to fill the role it is designed for and instead people are picking other subclasses to fit its role better, that means something is terribly amiss, it is by all possible metrics, a design failure.
But I digress, I am giving you the courtesy of reading everything you write, which is saying a lot since most of it makes little to no sense and is not reflective of the actual in-game DnD experience, but I doubt you are doing the same since you keep bringing up the same things and we keep telling you why they make no sense and you either can't seem to understand or you simply don't want to. The argument is getting stale with you and is going nowhere so I am not gonna keep wasting neither my time nor yours. I am still happy to bounce ideas around with others on this argument because most of us like the hexblade and want an actual fun, enjoyable and playable version of it, which I am convinced is not something you yourself want. The original hexblade was poorly designed because of the issues it created with multiclassing, which DMs could have stopped at their tables if they wanted to, (and was actually terrible to take at later levels because the features gained beyond level 1 where limited and weak), and I understand it left a bad taste in a lot of mouths leading to the DnD community to be split in two groups, the bladelock enjoyers and the hexblade haters, which you seem to be one of the latter. I do not blame you for it, a lot of people share your view, however, anyone who is objective and has played DnD long enough, or has at least basic understanding of game design and balancing, will admit it that this version of the hexblade requires heavy revisions and further UA testing to get to the right spot, and one of the key things it needs is a fix to the warlocks AC which is not fit for a frontliner not to mention the unexciting, lackluster and limited features combined with a complete desecration of the actual 'Hexbalde's Curse feature
The assumption that magic items are superfluous is not consistent with the other guidelines "The D&D game assumes that magic items appear sporadically and that they are a boon unless an item bears a curse." "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20."
So, no, D&D is assumed to operate with a certain amount of magic items and that those items have an impact.
Page 136 of Xanathar's supports my argument and states explicitly what's implicit in the 2014 DMG, emphasis mine:
Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As a DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.
This is the very definition of superfluous. They are not needed.
This sidebar seems to be missing from the D&D Beyond version of Xanathar's, which is puzzling. But it's right there in the print version, stating explicitly what I said: 5E (both versions) is designed so that magic items are superfluous.
Xanathar's predates and is superseded by the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. I get what you are saying, but there is a standard that has been set by official published books and the notion that D&D is designed around characters without magic items is a case of "do what I say, not what I do." If you play through official modules, you will get +X attack items, +X defense items, and a host of other items. "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20. The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play." (DMG 2024) This sets the standard. To say otherwise is dishonest, not on your part, but on Xanathar's and the DMG. You're welcome to play a low magic or high magic setting within D&D, but anything that deviates from established norms of D&D should be reviewed in session 0. (I would suggest reviewing even standard fare, just to manage expectations.)
I agree with your earlier statement that a "fix needs to come in the features of the subclass itself." However, magic items must also be taken into account, as avenues for power scaling, as options for rounding out a character, or as potential abuses that need may warrant action.
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
No one said that players control the magic items they get.
In the context of this conversation, that is basically saying you don't give them the defensive item the exact defensive item they are asking for, but a similar defensive item instead. That's fine, but it doesn't change that there is an expectation of magic items being received, regardless of the specific items awarded, regardless of whether the GM uses the suggested magic item wish list, the magic items as written in a published adventure (your party of 4 wizards find +1 Plate Armor, Yay!), a random table/treasure generator, or some other method, there is a standard established by official sources. You aren't expected to break the balance by underawarding or overdoing (unless you go nuts), but there is a standard nonetheless.
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
No one said that players control the magic items they get.
In the context of this conversation, that is basically saying you don't give them the defensive item the exact defensive item they are asking for, but a similar defensive item instead. That's fine, but it doesn't change that there is an expectation of magic items being received, regardless of the specific items awarded, regardless of whether the GM uses the suggested magic item wish list, the magic items as written in a published adventure (your party of 4 wizards find +1 Plate Armor, Yay!), a random table/treasure generator, or some other method, there is a standard established by official sources. You aren't expected to break the balance by underawarding or overdoing (unless you go nuts), but there is a standard nonetheless.
My only point is that doesn’t matter because the player doesn’t pick what magic items they get. When a class is designed you don’t design it based on what magic items they could get even if there is an assumption they will get some magic items. This conversation is being derailed because y’all are arguing over whether or not magic items are considered in design. Since players don’t pick their magic items every player at different tables will have different experiences with magic items. That should have nothing to do with the design of a subclass.
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
No one said that players control the magic items they get.
In the context of this conversation, that is basically saying you don't give them the defensive item the exact defensive item they are asking for, but a similar defensive item instead. That's fine, but it doesn't change that there is an expectation of magic items being received, regardless of the specific items awarded, regardless of whether the GM uses the suggested magic item wish list, the magic items as written in a published adventure (your party of 4 wizards find +1 Plate Armor, Yay!), a random table/treasure generator, or some other method, there is a standard established by official sources. You aren't expected to break the balance by underawarding or overdoing (unless you go nuts), but there is a standard nonetheless.
My only point is that doesn’t matter because the player doesn’t pick what magic items they get. When a class is designed you don’t design it based on what magic items they could get even if there is an assumption they will get some magic items. This conversation is being derailed because y’all are arguing over whether or not magic items are considered in design. Since players don’t pick their magic items every player at different tables will have different experiences with magic items. That should have nothing to do with the design of a subclass.
Regardless of whether or not a player can get the exact magic item they want, IMO magic items should feel as a boost in power not an equalizer. For this argument’s sake, an item such as bracers of defense should feel like its boosting you AC to a value which you otherwise shouldn’t be able to get, not to a value that you should have regardless to operate properly in the frontline.
It is also funny how all this backlash against the hexblade (accursed shield in particular) could have been avoided by WoTc if they just changed Armor pf shadows to be actually useful. There are so many things they could have done but instead they copy and pasted an invocation from 2014 which was considered by the larger majority, useless.
option A: 10+Dex+Cha
option B: 13+CHA (IMO mage armor in general should have been changed to be 13+Spell casting modifier)
Option C: Bond with a piece if medium armor and gain proficiency in it.
I think DnD overall could use with a willingness on WoTc part to update already released material that is not working, not only publish erratas or fixes to nerf the broken stuff (see conjure minor elementals).
IMO, Medium Armor and a Shield are still the best option because they’re thematic, balanced, impose stealth constraints, and require resource investment.
Source: Tyranny of Dragons
Wondrous item, legendary (requires attunement)
Draconic Majesty. While you are wearing no armor, you can add your Charisma bonus to your Armor Class.
IMO, Medium Armor and a Shield are still the best option because they’re thematic, balanced, impose stealth constraints, and require resource investment.
Source: Tyranny of Dragons
Wondrous item, legendary (requires attunement)
Draconic Majesty. While you are wearing no armor, you can add your Charisma bonus to your Armor Class.
Having no armor is unbalanced and not thematic,
Med armor and a shield are the most straightforward options, yes.
The item you are showcasing here is a dragon mask which is a legendary item. If your metric to judge balance is the synergy features might have with legendary grade items, you will find that balance is an illusion. Legendary items are made to be stupidly powerful and endgame rewards for completing legendary feats or defeating legendary enemies. A Dragon Mask is not something a DM will allow to be purchased at the local magic shop you find in a random city and as such you cant design features around what interactions they might have with such items. By your metric extra attacks should not exist at all because magic weapns exist that deal additional dmg. By the time a Dragon Mask item comes into play (if it does at all because its very campaign and setting specific) enemies will have +15 to hit, meaning that potential +5 to AC means close to nothing (unarmored defense with 16 DEX + bracers of defense + Dragon Mask give 25 AC, throw in a protection item for 26 AC. You are still getting hit on 10s and 11s meaning about 50% of the time and thats with a legendary item a rare item and an uncommon item taking up all you attunement slots and devoted to improving AC). A +3 half-plate grants 21 AC without requiring an attunement slot, a +3 shield pushes you to 26 AC while still jot taking up any attunement slots. What this means is that if you are factoring in legendary grade items, armor proficiency and shields are much more broken and unbalanced than unarmored defense can ever be.
Regarding not being thematic, well that is a matter of opinion and it depends on what you imagine/want your hexblade to be. The only given description is that you are a martial oriented warlock thats pacted with a cursed weapon. If you imagine the hexblade to be something akin to the lich king from wow or Elric of Malnibone (arguably what inspired the hexblade) than yes armor and a shield make total sense. However just because thats what appeals to you, it does not make it the only theme possible for a hexblade. My image of the hexblade is Viego, a character from the moba League of Legends. He wields a cursed greatsword striking at both body and soul of his enemies with it, heals himself by tearing fragments of his enemies souls which invigorate him and he walks around in leather pants, and an open leather jacket with nothing else underneath, however, one of his abilities which summons an area of cursed darkness granting him stealth and speed (darkness/devil sight vibes as he fight better inside it while its more difficult for his enemies to fight him within it) and while in it his in hame model changes becoming fully armored (flavor wise he uses the same cursed darkness he summons and shales it into armor around him becoming fully armored from head to toe helmet and everything). Now does that not sound like a hexblade warlock to you? It might not be what you want your own hexblade to be or look, but that does not invalidate it from also fulfilling the hexblade fantasy.
IMO, Medium Armor and a Shield are still the best option because they’re thematic, balanced, impose stealth constraints, and require resource investment.
Source: Tyranny of Dragons
Wondrous item, legendary (requires attunement)
Draconic Majesty. While you are wearing no armor, you can add your Charisma bonus to your Armor Class.
Having no armor is unbalanced and not thematic,
Med armor and a shield are the most straightforward options, yes.
The item you are showcasing here is a dragon mask which is a legendary item. If your metric to judge balance is the synergy features might have with legendary grade items, you will find that balance is an illusion. Legendary items are made to be stupidly powerful and endgame rewards for completing legendary feats or defeating legendary enemies. A Dragon Mask is not something a DM will allow to be purchased at the local magic shop you find in a random city and as such you cant design features around what interactions they might have with such items. By your metric extra attacks should not exist at all because magic weapns exist that deal additional dmg. By the time a Dragon Mask item comes into play (if it does at all because its very campaign and setting specific) enemies will have +15 to hit, meaning that potential +5 to AC means close to nothing (unarmored defense with 16 DEX + bracers of defense + Dragon Mask give 25 AC, throw in a protection item for 26 AC. You are still getting hit on 10s and 11s meaning about 50% of the time and thats with a legendary item a rare item and an uncommon item taking up all you attunement slots and devoted to improving AC). A +3 half-plate grants 21 AC without requiring an attunement slot, a +3 shield pushes you to 26 AC while still jot taking up any attunement slots. What this means is that if you are factoring in legendary grade items, armor proficiency and shields are much more broken and unbalanced than unarmored defense can ever be.
Regarding not being thematic, well that is a matter of opinion and it depends on what you imagine/want your hexblade to be. The only given description is that you are a martial oriented warlock thats pacted with a cursed weapon. If you imagine the hexblade to be something akin to the lich king from wow or Elric of Malnibone (arguably what inspired the hexblade) than yes armor and a shield make total sense. However just because thats what appeals to you, it does not make it the only theme possible for a hexblade. My image of the hexblade is Viego, a character from the moba League of Legends. He wields a cursed greatsword striking at both body and soul of his enemies with it, heals himself by tearing fragments of his enemies souls which invigorate him and he walks around in leather pants, and an open leather jacket with nothing else underneath, however, one of his abilities which summons an area of cursed darkness granting him stealth and speed (darkness/devil sight vibes as he fight better inside it while its more difficult for his enemies to fight him within it) and while in it his in hame model changes becoming fully armored (flavor wise he uses the same cursed darkness he summons and shales it into armor around him becoming fully armored from head to toe helmet and everything). Now does that not sound like a hexblade warlock to you? It might not be what you want your own hexblade to be or look, but that does not invalidate it from also fulfilling the hexblade fantasy.
I’m only giving one example—there are many other items that can break AC if you not using armor.
As for the thematic aspect, just search Google or ask ChatGPT and you’ll see:
The Hexblade Warlock patron is most directly inspired by Elric of Melniboné, a character created by Michael Moorcock.
IMO, Medium Armor and a Shield are still the best option because they’re thematic, balanced, impose stealth constraints, and require resource investment.
Source: Tyranny of Dragons
Wondrous item, legendary (requires attunement)
Draconic Majesty. While you are wearing no armor, you can add your Charisma bonus to your Armor Class.
Having no armor is unbalanced and not thematic,
Med armor and a shield are the most straightforward options, yes.
The item you are showcasing here is a dragon mask which is a legendary item. If your metric to judge balance is the synergy features might have with legendary grade items, you will find that balance is an illusion. Legendary items are made to be stupidly powerful and endgame rewards for completing legendary feats or defeating legendary enemies. A Dragon Mask is not something a DM will allow to be purchased at the local magic shop you find in a random city and as such you cant design features around what interactions they might have with such items. By your metric extra attacks should not exist at all because magic weapns exist that deal additional dmg. By the time a Dragon Mask item comes into play (if it does at all because its very campaign and setting specific) enemies will have +15 to hit, meaning that potential +5 to AC means close to nothing (unarmored defense with 16 DEX + bracers of defense + Dragon Mask give 25 AC, throw in a protection item for 26 AC. You are still getting hit on 10s and 11s meaning about 50% of the time and thats with a legendary item a rare item and an uncommon item taking up all you attunement slots and devoted to improving AC). A +3 half-plate grants 21 AC without requiring an attunement slot, a +3 shield pushes you to 26 AC while still jot taking up any attunement slots. What this means is that if you are factoring in legendary grade items, armor proficiency and shields are much more broken and unbalanced than unarmored defense can ever be.
Regarding not being thematic, well that is a matter of opinion and it depends on what you imagine/want your hexblade to be. The only given description is that you are a martial oriented warlock thats pacted with a cursed weapon. If you imagine the hexblade to be something akin to the lich king from wow or Elric of Malnibone (arguably what inspired the hexblade) than yes armor and a shield make total sense. However just because thats what appeals to you, it does not make it the only theme possible for a hexblade. My image of the hexblade is Viego, a character from the moba League of Legends. He wields a cursed greatsword striking at both body and soul of his enemies with it, heals himself by tearing fragments of his enemies souls which invigorate him and he walks around in leather pants, and an open leather jacket with nothing else underneath, however, one of his abilities which summons an area of cursed darkness granting him stealth and speed (darkness/devil sight vibes as he fight better inside it while its more difficult for his enemies to fight him within it) and while in it his in hame model changes becoming fully armored (flavor wise he uses the same cursed darkness he summons and shales it into armor around him becoming fully armored from head to toe helmet and everything). Now does that not sound like a hexblade warlock to you? It might not be what you want your own hexblade to be or look, but that does not invalidate it from also fulfilling the hexblade fantasy.
I’m only giving one example—there are many other items that can break AC if you not using armor.
As for the thematic aspect, just search Google or ask ChatGPT and you’ll see:
The Hexblade Warlock patron is most directly inspired by Elric of Melniboné, a character created by Michael Moorcock.
Well regarding your first point, no, there are more ways in which you can break AC while having armor profs, much more than unarmored AC, because +1/2/3 armors and shields are more common than specific items and do not require attunement which is a huge investment. I am playing a hexadin under 5e rules right now at lvl 13 and we are towards the end of the campaign and I have a 26AC (obsidian dragon armor, shield of the hidden lord and ring of protection, and fighting style defense) and of those items still only two require attunement so I still am able to have a Dragon's wrath weapon attuned to me for increased dmg.
Outside of the legendary Dragon Mask and the rare Bracers of Defense I do not know what other items can boost unarmored defense (Robe of the Archmagi changes your AC to 15+Dex so it does not stack with unarmored defense). Other items that boost AC like protection items, etc. work in or out of armor, so your argument does not hold. I'd say do your research about items that specifically boost unarmored AC before making such claims.
Regarding your Elric of Melnibone comment, I did acknowledge that he was the inspiration for the hexbalde (which you would know if you cared to read carefully my response instead of rushing to contradict me). Its not that I do not believe you, in fact I already knew that, however, being inspired by something does not mean that the hexblade can't branch out into other things. Its how design and creativity work, inspiration begets creation. Many creators (of games, characters, movies, books, etc.) are inspired by the work of others, and while they might create something which is similar or reminiscent of the initial inspiration, it does not mean that it can't change or evolve. Inspiration does not mean copying, it means being attracted to specific aspects of a thing which make you want to create something similar albeit with key differences that make it its own thing. Playing a character that is inspired by Drizzit do'Urden for example does not mean you have be a drow with a pet panther, you can be a high-elf dual wielder with a pet, raven, with completely different character traits and motivations. You are still inspired by that character, but you are still taking you character in its own direction. If you still do not believe me, I suggest you google the definition of the word inspiration.
If Elric IS the main inspiration, very, very odd that the UA versions seem to be strongly moving it away from a melee-focused subclass. Elric most definitely mixed it up in melee.
If Elric IS the main inspiration, very, very odd that the UA versions seem to be strongly moving it away from a melee-focused subclass. Elric most definitely mixed it up in melee.
Yeah I don think that the other commentator disagrees with us about the warlocks AC issue, I think he just has a strong opinion on wanting Medium armor and Shield for the hexblade as opposed to an improvement on unarmored/lightly armored AC (like what the genies paladin gets).
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
No one said that players control the magic items they get.
In the context of this conversation, that is basically saying you don't give them the defensive item the exact defensive item they are asking for, but a similar defensive item instead. That's fine, but it doesn't change that there is an expectation of magic items being received, regardless of the specific items awarded, regardless of whether the GM uses the suggested magic item wish list, the magic items as written in a published adventure (your party of 4 wizards find +1 Plate Armor, Yay!), a random table/treasure generator, or some other method, there is a standard established by official sources. You aren't expected to break the balance by underawarding or overdoing (unless you go nuts), but there is a standard nonetheless.
My only point is that doesn’t matter because the player doesn’t pick what magic items they get. When a class is designed you don’t design it based on what magic items they could get even if there is an assumption they will get some magic items. This conversation is being derailed because y’all are arguing over whether or not magic items are considered in design. Since players don’t pick their magic items every player at different tables will have different experiences with magic items. That should have nothing to do with the design of a subclass.
Items, particularly magic items, absolutely factor into a class's design because it affects the options available to them. Having a Warlock in +X plate with a +X shield wouldn't be untouchable, but has multiple impacts (reduced reliance on Dexterity and defensive spells/invocations being big impacts). Now, no one has been clamoring for a heavy armor wearing hexblade, but it is notable that if the subclass grants medium armor proficiency, it's just one feat away. Even with medium armor proficiency, there are some interesting options (nonmagic armor will get you to AC 16 with a 14 DEX, but magic armor can get you spells, Darkvision, and higher AC).
It doesn't matter if the players can buy and sell, or craft magic items in your game, the classes are designed in a context where magic items exist and there is a certain standard of distribution. You don't want any class reliant on specific acquired magic items to function effectively (the Artificer being an odd duck), but you also don't want a surprise magic item to throw the balance out of whack.
Sometimes managing that balance means controls on the items, sometimes it means controls on the class feature. I've never used it, but I imagine if a Sorcerer got a hold of a Mizzium Apparatus (Uncommon, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica), it would be fairly busted because of the Sorcerer's Font of Magic. The answer here is to revise the magic item and you get the Hat of Wizardry and Hat of Many Spells. I can only guess at WotC's logic, but I suspect they are trying to head off potential abuse, warranted or not.
They should go back to the original Hexblade, built around light armor and no shield. If they want to keep accursed shield, make it while not using a shield. It might be interesting to see an updated Mettle class feature. (Evasion but for different saves. Back in the day, it was Reflex (DEX Save), Fortitude (CON maybe STR saves), and Will (everything else) and Mettle gave you Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves.) Is the current version, "when you fail a very specific save, you can choose to pass" effects?
Except the original Hexblade did not have medium armor or shield proficiency. It's fine for people on the internet to draw the conclusion that it was inspired by Elric. In my opinion, the Hexblade Patron is a combination of the original Hexblade concept and the Tome of Magic (3.5) Pact Magic (which originally included references to Kas and some the 5e Invocations). The fact that parallels exist does not mean that was the inspiration for the original class (It was 1-20 class back then). The Medium Armor proficiency was added in 4e, but was not part of the original concept.
Agreed. I am done arguing with people trying to convince me that the UA hexblade is good and well designed. Its terrible and anyone who has a grasp of the game knows it. Hopefully WoTc got enough REAL feedback from people like us and they give hexblade another UA, hopefully a half decent one this time, before release.
Page 136 of Xanathar's supports my argument and states explicitly what's implicit in the 2014 DMG, emphasis mine:
Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As a DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.
This is the very definition of superfluous. They are not needed.
This sidebar seems to be missing from the D&D Beyond version of Xanathar's, which is puzzling. But it's right there in the print version, stating explicitly what I said: 5E (both versions) is designed so that magic items are superfluous.
What magic items appear in a game, has more to do with the DM than any other factor.
the only method where bracers might be considered less common is random drops. Which is still a DM choice. And even in that case, in 2024 random items are based on monster type, so its still heavily influenced by the DM. In the case where the DM is rolling magic items, its fairly unlikely you will get any specific item you want. whether its 2 % or 4%, (this is the actual difference in rate in the 2024 d100 tables) If you arent rolling like 30 magic items, of the right treasure type per level range, which seems unlikely, you are not likely to see either one. And then its decided by the group who gets what.
No one has said magical items would fix anything related to hexblade or balance. My contention is that hexblade doesnt need more than 18 Ac to be viable.
And to be 100% clear, I am not the one bringing magic items into this. My analysis and playtests all had no magic items assumed. Someone said that a flaw of hexblade and unarmored defenses is that you cant upgrade their AC via magic items, which is not true. bracers are the same rarity as armor+1. If you arent getting them, its due to a choice of the DM. If the dm is using, magic shops, whishlists, or crafting you are just as likely to get them as any other item of its rarity.
As for comparing defenses;
warlocks have spells, and defense boosters from invocations.
warlock has:
invocations:
armor of shadows (essentially medium armor AC with low investment, and heavy armor AC with high investment)
fiendish vigor, which essentially means +12 max HP from level 2, which you cant upgrade their cast in battle in emergencies
lessons of the first ones: which can give you things like lucky (force rerolls), tough (increase ho by 2 per level), musician inspiration to everyone (aka save rerolls) or magic initiate which gives can give you low level defensive spells of your choice and cantrips, and castings of it.
lifedrinker: 4.5+ con hp recovery per turn, using hit dice.
Pact of the chain, which includes summons which can give a bonus to saves, and one that can frightern enenemies(if you get investment)
repelling blast: which can push creatures away, (reduces need to disengage, doesnt cost a BA) (muti creatures if you chose eldritch blast)
gift of protectors: avoid death once.
spells:
blade ward, essentially +2.5 AC on average versus melee attacks. a cantrip, so infinite use.
any level 1 spell or cantrip, from the cleric, wizard, druid list (via initiate) or ritual(tome) that has defensive application
arms of hadar (disables reactions)
Bane (reduces hit rate)
protection from evil/good
armor of agathys
darkness (+devil sight)
mirror image
fear
magic circle
summon fey (darkness every turn)
synaptic static
shadow of moil
then the classic control spells, hold series, hypnotic pattern, hideous laughter, banishment
and hexblade itself adds shield, arcane recovery, bestow curse, staggering smite, wrathful smite
many of these spells effects can last or drastically change the whole enconter in terms of mitigating damage.
As for how many spells they have, the warlock doesnt need to cast tons of spells per encounter, they have strong baseline damage and defenses from invocations. and class features. Many of their spells are designed to give lasting benefits, which are more efficient in terms if effectiveness per spell slot.
they also have more high teir spells per day for their level than other casters, until like level 11 (but still more level 5 spells than anyone after that), unless the DM will never let your party get at least one short rest per day. Which to be 100% honest is probably ridiculously unbalanced DMing. Especially since taking a SR is meant to be mostly a player initiated activity (which the dm could interrupt, but should not interupt 100% of the time) with even 1 SR, the warlock gets 5 top teir spells per day from level 2-10, which sorcerer, wizard, druid, bard will not have, even if they use arcane recovery/sacrifice spell points.
but the point is, Warlocks have tons of very powerful and useful active defenses,
But this paradigm of getting away from melee, is not a common melee paradigm. Hexblade, as presented in this UA would rarely want to escape melee. Monks/fighters/barbarians in 2024 are not trying to escape melee. the main point of disengage is getting to the guy you want to melee for a monk, or possibly helping/saving a team member. The only class who can disengage as a common strategy without huge downsides is rogue, and thats because it has both a BA disengage AND has like 4/5ths of its offense in its main action. (unlike monk who loses half its DPR if it uses disengage)
Hexblade doesnt have an issue taking enemy attention, and in fact, its better if they target the hexblade than most casters, 3/4ths of the barbarians, rogues, rangers, most fighters,
because they can have up to 18 Ac baseline, 20 with accursed shield, they can have high temp HP boosts at the start of any fight, tough feat and lucky feat, They have the aformentioned defensive options. They deal damage if they get hit (unyielding will) and reduce damage (armor of hexes)
if the hexblade is running away, its fairly likely someone else with less mitigation is taking the hit.
now its totally possible to make a hexblade or warlock with a lot less defensive potential, who fears melee. but thats a choice.
RE: your sidenote, exactly by what metric are you suggesting those builds outperform hexblade? and explain how its the case.you also say in every teir of play, but only mention level 20.
celestial patron provides exactly 1 damage buff once per round, + Cha modifier once per round and only on damage from a spell which does radiant or fire damage. it only provides 2 defense buffs, temp HP once per day, and resistence to radiant damage. celestial spirit can reduce damage taken by 5.5 avg per round.
hexblade unyielding will provides avg of 7-14 damage per round (1 to 2ntargets) 2 AC in melee with your enemy, -10-20 damage taken, 25% greater chance for an enemy to fail a save, like say staggering strike. +.05* dice from attacks per round (19 crit)
and, always being behind on levels means always losing out on something useful for warlocks, they will be one spell level behind half the time, and features behind the other half.
By level 20, the only thing a paladin dip provides is 2 level 1 spells, weapon mastery, and lay on hands with a pool of 5 hp. As boring as the warlock level 20 feature may be, its objectively 2 more level 5 spells per day. Which is objectively way more valuable that lay on hands 5 hp and 2 level 1 spells. it all comes down to weapon mastery. in which case i would say fighter is a better dip.
also, those numbers of DPR not including accuracy are not special. really, any warlock with gwm gets 81. any warlock with dual wielder/weapon mastery nick can get 77.5, any warlock with shadow blade and dual wielder/nick gets, gets 90.5
the bonus from crits on 19 can be between 2.5- 9 on average depending on which of the aformentioned styles you choose, of which the highest is dual wielding shadow blade. so essentially 4-8 dpr from that feature. 7 from unyielding will
celestial is a fine warlock, if your goal is to support the team with recovery effects, giving up damage occaisionally. but there is no particular reason to do that as a melee build. and no benefit to taking or dealing damage or debuffing targets over the hexblade. every heal spell could be another spell. Hexblade recovers 22.5 to 47.5 hp per day via hexcurse, depending on your charisma, the celestial recovers 14-73 depending on level. (btw they wont recover more hp per day with that feature until level 14)
essentially hexblade is more durable, better damage and debuffs(hindering hex) with a spell list that better supports the playstyle.
fiend has better hp recovery but on average worse mitigation Hurl through hell dpr wise is like using explosive hex on 4 targets. id say hurl through hell is superior, but nit suoerior enough to say its a better melee build, it has no other features that increase dpr over the course of a day, and its spell list isnt designed to work well with martial play. It plays best as a turret, not a mobile attacker/defender
Xanathar's predates and is superseded by the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide. I get what you are saying, but there is a standard that has been set by official published books and the notion that D&D is designed around characters without magic items is a case of "do what I say, not what I do." If you play through official modules, you will get +X attack items, +X defense items, and a host of other items. "The Magic Items Awarded by Level table shows the number of magic items a D&D party typically gains during a campaign, totaling one hundred magic items by level 20. The table shows how many items of each rarity are meant to be handed out during each of the four tiers of play." (DMG 2024) This sets the standard. To say otherwise is dishonest, not on your part, but on Xanathar's and the DMG. You're welcome to play a low magic or high magic setting within D&D, but anything that deviates from established norms of D&D should be reviewed in session 0. (I would suggest reviewing even standard fare, just to manage expectations.)
I agree with your earlier statement that a "fix needs to come in the features of the subclass itself." However, magic items must also be taken into account, as avenues for power scaling, as options for rounding out a character, or as potential abuses that need may warrant action.
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Spells and invocations are not a substitute for a good base AC, that is always on, can't be removed in 99% of cases and does not require additional or limited resources to use.
Spells are the warlock feature, what they do to play the game, if your defense of not giving warlock hexblade good is AC is that 'use spells for defense instead of other things' then you have completely lost the plot. IF I'm using my spells and resources just to exist in melee, then might as well take fighter, exist better in melee and have more features that boost my dmg and defense more than any of the things warlock has access to, since I am still not getting spells to do with as I please anyway not to mention most of the spells you mention are concentration spells, which can be dropped.
By what metric do you compare armor of shadows to medium armor? Armor of shadows is a +1 studded leather, which with 14 DEX gets you 15 AC which is garbage for a character who wants to exist primarily in melee. Half-plate gets you 17 with the same stat, THAT is medium armor. Saying that warlock can get a baseline of 18 AC is where your argument becomes completely invalid and you prove my point that you are either a bladelock hater or just have no business testing material because you have no idea what good design or balance remotely is. Do not take this personally but stick to playing at casual tables, testing and evaluating material is not for you.
For warlock to get 18 AC (which can be improved to 20 with accursed shield) you mean that you take armor of shadows (another invocation tax but will not get into that), and put 20 in DEX. If I am putting 20 in DEX, it means I am semi-dumping CHA and at that point everything warlock has (including the spells that by your metric are what you are using for defense) becomes absolutely dreadful because most things scale with CHA. If I want to max DEX I am better off playing rouge, fighter with dual wield, paladin with dual wield (and genie), Monk, or a 1000 other things before taking hexblade and maxing out DEX (with this metric you get like 1 or 2 uses of hexbaldes curse, so you ain't getting accursed shield most of the time anyway, spell save DC becomes non-existent so the feature you praised so much harrowing hex becomes almost useless because most spells you are casting as an action require a saving throw).
Warlock can't be durable without maxing DEX and at that point the rest of the features seize to function.
At every turn you keep convincing me that you have no idea what you are talking about, either you did not really playtest and are making up scenarios based on a very wrong and misguided opinion, you played at a very casual table where monsters where hitting you with pillows, or you rolled for stats and started the game with inflated stats. With point buy the best you are looking at is STR 13, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 9, CHA 17 (if you want GWM) or STR 8, DEX 14/16, CON 14/16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 17. This mean your armor of shadows is not giving you more than 15-16 AC and your CON isn't that great if you want to get the 16 DEX, which means you might drop concentration sometimes and relying on CON spells for increased survivability (which is what you keep going back to every single time you try to defend this hexblade), becomes a liability not a guarantee.
The dmg from Unyielding Will and Exploding hex don't scale and are negligible (avrg of 7 dmg for will and 10.5 for exploding hex as a lvl 14 feature), only increasing based on the number of enemies around which is not a great metric to assess dmg boosting abilities, not to mention unyielding will relies on being hit and not failing the CON save and exploding hex is a once per day thing which means its a consolation prize at best. And saying the hexblade comes with the shield spell is not saying much considering you get it when you already have 2nd level slots which you might be ok with using them for shield, but that lasts for exactly 2 levels after which you get 3rd level spell slots which you definitely are not gonna be using for shield. As a TRUE warlock enjoyer, I can assure you most of us would rather fall unconscious then use a 3rd level slot for shield. Most of the 'powerful' active defensive abilities you mentioned are tied to the same resource, spells, which you have exactly 2 of until lvl 11 and in an actual game of DnD you do not get to short rest after every single encounter, you have to manage those very limited resources.
Lifedrinker needs you to roll hit dice every time, meaning its not and once per turn 4.5+con heal, its a once per turn, up to your level number of times per long rest, heal, which is much worse than what you are trying to make it out to be.
Paladin/fighter dips don't provide much at level 20 true, but I would rather start with armor prof and push back everything a level than rely on bandaid fixes to my paper AC while trying to be in melee, and multiclassing should never feel force, it should be a choice the player makes when they want to create a fantasy which the base classes and their subclasses do not capture entirely (ex. 2014 hexblade + paladin vengence or oathbreaker to make a DeathKnight style of character).
At the end of the day everything you mentioned above, is available to the base warlock class, everything except accursed shield, which means an blastlock can get everything plus add an extra layer of free consistent protection by staying 120+ feet away from the enemy instead of tempting fate with a measly +2 to AC while being in the heat of things.
The bottom line is that this hexblade does not provide nearly enough tools to convince anyone (apart from you apparently) to pick it up and go into melee, instead of dipping fighter or paladin and picking literally any other subclass (archfey provides a 100 teems more defensive tools and utility then this hexblade does). The actual hexblade subclass provides one defensive tool at level 3, tied to yet another limited resource, which has 2 very restrictive conditions to use, accursed shield, which by all metrics and in the opinion of ALL actual bladelock enjoyers, is one of the worst features ever seen on a subclass. Armor of hexes is the 2nd defensive tool, but it comes in way too late for what it does, it scales poorly because dmg scales much quicker at later levels and is yet again tied to a limited resource and is also restricted by the fact in can only be used against a specific target making it not reliable. In this state hexblade is definitely one of the worst choices for a melee warlock, and since it is designed to be exactly that, it makes it redundant and useless, and when a subclass is not picked to fill the role it is designed for and instead people are picking other subclasses to fit its role better, that means something is terribly amiss, it is by all possible metrics, a design failure.
But I digress, I am giving you the courtesy of reading everything you write, which is saying a lot since most of it makes little to no sense and is not reflective of the actual in-game DnD experience, but I doubt you are doing the same since you keep bringing up the same things and we keep telling you why they make no sense and you either can't seem to understand or you simply don't want to. The argument is getting stale with you and is going nowhere so I am not gonna keep wasting neither my time nor yours. I am still happy to bounce ideas around with others on this argument because most of us like the hexblade and want an actual fun, enjoyable and playable version of it, which I am convinced is not something you yourself want. The original hexblade was poorly designed because of the issues it created with multiclassing, which DMs could have stopped at their tables if they wanted to, (and was actually terrible to take at later levels because the features gained beyond level 1 where limited and weak), and I understand it left a bad taste in a lot of mouths leading to the DnD community to be split in two groups, the bladelock enjoyers and the hexblade haters, which you seem to be one of the latter. I do not blame you for it, a lot of people share your view, however, anyone who is objective and has played DnD long enough, or has at least basic understanding of game design and balancing, will admit it that this version of the hexblade requires heavy revisions and further UA testing to get to the right spot, and one of the key things it needs is a fix to the warlocks AC which is not fit for a frontliner not to mention the unexciting, lackluster and limited features combined with a complete desecration of the actual 'Hexbalde's Curse feature
Players don’t control what magic items they get. It requires GM fiat to get the exact magic item you want. As a GM I usually don’t give players the exact thing they are asking for, but something similar instead.
No one said that players control the magic items they get.
In the context of this conversation, that is basically saying you don't give them the defensive item the exact defensive item they are asking for, but a similar defensive item instead. That's fine, but it doesn't change that there is an expectation of magic items being received, regardless of the specific items awarded, regardless of whether the GM uses the suggested magic item wish list, the magic items as written in a published adventure (your party of 4 wizards find +1 Plate Armor, Yay!), a random table/treasure generator, or some other method, there is a standard established by official sources. You aren't expected to break the balance by underawarding or overdoing (unless you go nuts), but there is a standard nonetheless.
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My only point is that doesn’t matter because the player doesn’t pick what magic items they get. When a class is designed you don’t design it based on what magic items they could get even if there is an assumption they will get some magic items. This conversation is being derailed because y’all are arguing over whether or not magic items are considered in design. Since players don’t pick their magic items every player at different tables will have different experiences with magic items. That should have nothing to do with the design of a subclass.
Regardless of whether or not a player can get the exact magic item they want, IMO magic items should feel as a boost in power not an equalizer.
For this argument’s sake, an item such as bracers of defense should feel like its boosting you AC to a value which you otherwise shouldn’t be able to get, not to a value that you should have regardless to operate properly in the frontline.
It is also funny how all this backlash against the hexblade (accursed shield in particular) could have been avoided by WoTc if they just changed Armor pf shadows to be actually useful. There are so many things they could have done but instead they copy and pasted an invocation from 2014 which was considered by the larger majority, useless.
option A: 10+Dex+Cha
option B: 13+CHA (IMO mage armor in general should have been changed to be 13+Spell casting modifier)
Option C: Bond with a piece if medium armor and gain proficiency in it.
I think DnD overall could use with a willingness on WoTc part to update already released material that is not working, not only publish erratas or fixes to nerf the broken stuff (see conjure minor elementals).
I originally wrote that Option A is best but I've changed my mind. Training in Medium Armor and Shields remains the best option.
IMO, Medium Armor and a Shield are still the best option because they’re thematic, balanced, impose stealth constraints, and require resource investment.
Having no armor is unbalanced and not thematic,
Med armor and a shield are the most straightforward options, yes.
The item you are showcasing here is a dragon mask which is a legendary item. If your metric to judge balance is the synergy features might have with legendary grade items, you will find that balance is an illusion. Legendary items are made to be stupidly powerful and endgame rewards for completing legendary feats or defeating legendary enemies. A Dragon Mask is not something a DM will allow to be purchased at the local magic shop you find in a random city and as such you cant design features around what interactions they might have with such items. By your metric extra attacks should not exist at all because magic weapns exist that deal additional dmg. By the time a Dragon Mask item comes into play (if it does at all because its very campaign and setting specific) enemies will have +15 to hit, meaning that potential +5 to AC means close to nothing (unarmored defense with 16 DEX + bracers of defense + Dragon Mask give 25 AC, throw in a protection item for 26 AC. You are still getting hit on 10s and 11s meaning about 50% of the time and thats with a legendary item a rare item and an uncommon item taking up all you attunement slots and devoted to improving AC). A +3 half-plate grants 21 AC without requiring an attunement slot, a +3 shield pushes you to 26 AC while still jot taking up any attunement slots. What this means is that if you are factoring in legendary grade items, armor proficiency and shields are much more broken and unbalanced than unarmored defense can ever be.
Regarding not being thematic, well that is a matter of opinion and it depends on what you imagine/want your hexblade to be. The only given description is that you are a martial oriented warlock thats pacted with a cursed weapon. If you imagine the hexblade to be something akin to the lich king from wow or Elric of Malnibone (arguably what inspired the hexblade) than yes armor and a shield make total sense. However just because thats what appeals to you, it does not make it the only theme possible for a hexblade. My image of the hexblade is Viego, a character from the moba League of Legends. He wields a cursed greatsword striking at both body and soul of his enemies with it, heals himself by tearing fragments of his enemies souls which invigorate him and he walks around in leather pants, and an open leather jacket with nothing else underneath, however, one of his abilities which summons an area of cursed darkness granting him stealth and speed (darkness/devil sight vibes as he fight better inside it while its more difficult for his enemies to fight him within it) and while in it his in hame model changes becoming fully armored (flavor wise he uses the same cursed darkness he summons and shales it into armor around him becoming fully armored from head to toe helmet and everything). Now does that not sound like a hexblade warlock to you? It might not be what you want your own hexblade to be or look, but that does not invalidate it from also fulfilling the hexblade fantasy.
I’m only giving one example—there are many other items that can break AC if you not using armor.
As for the thematic aspect, just search Google or ask ChatGPT and you’ll see:
This isn’t just my opinion—it’s a fact. If you still don’t believe me, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_O-20ALRUU”**
Well regarding your first point, no, there are more ways in which you can break AC while having armor profs, much more than unarmored AC, because +1/2/3 armors and shields are more common than specific items and do not require attunement which is a huge investment. I am playing a hexadin under 5e rules right now at lvl 13 and we are towards the end of the campaign and I have a 26AC (obsidian dragon armor, shield of the hidden lord and ring of protection, and fighting style defense) and of those items still only two require attunement so I still am able to have a Dragon's wrath weapon attuned to me for increased dmg.
Outside of the legendary Dragon Mask and the rare Bracers of Defense I do not know what other items can boost unarmored defense (Robe of the Archmagi changes your AC to 15+Dex so it does not stack with unarmored defense). Other items that boost AC like protection items, etc. work in or out of armor, so your argument does not hold. I'd say do your research about items that specifically boost unarmored AC before making such claims.
Regarding your Elric of Melnibone comment, I did acknowledge that he was the inspiration for the hexbalde (which you would know if you cared to read carefully my response instead of rushing to contradict me). Its not that I do not believe you, in fact I already knew that, however, being inspired by something does not mean that the hexblade can't branch out into other things. Its how design and creativity work, inspiration begets creation. Many creators (of games, characters, movies, books, etc.) are inspired by the work of others, and while they might create something which is similar or reminiscent of the initial inspiration, it does not mean that it can't change or evolve. Inspiration does not mean copying, it means being attracted to specific aspects of a thing which make you want to create something similar albeit with key differences that make it its own thing. Playing a character that is inspired by Drizzit do'Urden for example does not mean you have be a drow with a pet panther, you can be a high-elf dual wielder with a pet, raven, with completely different character traits and motivations. You are still inspired by that character, but you are still taking you character in its own direction. If you still do not believe me, I suggest you google the definition of the word inspiration.
If Elric IS the main inspiration, very, very odd that the UA versions seem to be strongly moving it away from a melee-focused subclass. Elric most definitely mixed it up in melee.
Yeah I don think that the other commentator disagrees with us about the warlocks AC issue, I think he just has a strong opinion on wanting Medium armor and Shield for the hexblade as opposed to an improvement on unarmored/lightly armored AC (like what the genies paladin gets).
Items, particularly magic items, absolutely factor into a class's design because it affects the options available to them. Having a Warlock in +X plate with a +X shield wouldn't be untouchable, but has multiple impacts (reduced reliance on Dexterity and defensive spells/invocations being big impacts). Now, no one has been clamoring for a heavy armor wearing hexblade, but it is notable that if the subclass grants medium armor proficiency, it's just one feat away. Even with medium armor proficiency, there are some interesting options (nonmagic armor will get you to AC 16 with a 14 DEX, but magic armor can get you spells, Darkvision, and higher AC).
It doesn't matter if the players can buy and sell, or craft magic items in your game, the classes are designed in a context where magic items exist and there is a certain standard of distribution. You don't want any class reliant on specific acquired magic items to function effectively (the Artificer being an odd duck), but you also don't want a surprise magic item to throw the balance out of whack.
Sometimes managing that balance means controls on the items, sometimes it means controls on the class feature. I've never used it, but I imagine if a Sorcerer got a hold of a Mizzium Apparatus (Uncommon, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica), it would be fairly busted because of the Sorcerer's Font of Magic. The answer here is to revise the magic item and you get the Hat of Wizardry and Hat of Many Spells. I can only guess at WotC's logic, but I suspect they are trying to head off potential abuse, warranted or not.
They should go back to the original Hexblade, built around light armor and no shield. If they want to keep accursed shield, make it while not using a shield. It might be interesting to see an updated Mettle class feature. (Evasion but for different saves. Back in the day, it was Reflex (DEX Save), Fortitude (CON maybe STR saves), and Will (everything else) and Mettle gave you Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves.) Is the current version, "when you fail a very specific save, you can choose to pass" effects?
Except the original Hexblade did not have medium armor or shield proficiency. It's fine for people on the internet to draw the conclusion that it was inspired by Elric. In my opinion, the Hexblade Patron is a combination of the original Hexblade concept and the Tome of Magic (3.5) Pact Magic (which originally included references to Kas and some the 5e Invocations). The fact that parallels exist does not mean that was the inspiration for the original class (It was 1-20 class back then). The Medium Armor proficiency was added in 4e, but was not part of the original concept.
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