I imagine it would, but Manifest Mind uses only a bonus action to summon it, whereas Dispel Magic costs a 3rd level spell slot so that would pretty much be a waste.
Yeah, that's also true. I mentioned it before, but burning a Dispel Magic to counter Manifest Mind puts you behind in combat momentum. Using a spell slot and an action to counter a spammable bonus action? You're losing a step there.
Not necessarily. Yes it is situational, but like I was saying previously, chances are if you are worried about your player taking advantage of Manifest Mind constantly then that player is a Power Gamer / Min-Maxer. At what point it doesn't matter if it is an Archivist, Coffee-lock, Sorcer-lock or some other build, you are already building scenarios and encounters to "counter" his current min-maxed power character.
For example, if the Manifest Mind becomes abused in your campaign, then the enemy will have a Wand of Dispel Magic. Or place them up against swarms of weaker creatures, it can only 5-foot target one creature, so his turn is going to be widely ineffective.
I don't foresee manifest mind being a problem for normal, conventional players.
It's not that I worry about a player exploiting Manifest Mind, necessarily, it's that it's such an easily exploitable ability that I don't see how any semi intelligent person IN CHARACTER would not know and use Manifest Mind in combat that way. It changes the game world because such a tactic, and counters to it, would become the lynchpin for combat strategy. If an ability exists in the world, it should make sense for the world and I don't think the ability as written does.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It just occurred to me that maybe a simple fix would be to slightly tweak Manifest Mind and make Information Overload dismiss the mind - it's certainly thematic (mind blowing!) and means the archivist can gamble on one long-range 'drone strike' (which does have a smite option after all), but doesn't allow them to just have an invulnerable proxy in combat.
Change to Manifest Mind:
Manifest Mind. As a bonus action while the item is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral presence, hovering in an unoccupied space that you can see within 60 feet of you. This presence is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. You determine its appearance; the Artificial Mind table offers suggested appearances based on the object’s main material.
Change to Information Overload:
Information Overload. As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class. Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1stlevel spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first. If you use this feature while you cannot see the target, the strain of doing so causes the mind to unmanifest.
I don't think it would need to carry any clarification that you can both overload and re-manifest the mind on the same turn, as by default that would be allowable.
N.B. "Unmanifest" seems to be a real word it turns out, though I'm not sure this is proper use of it.
It just occurred to me that maybe a simple fix would be to slightly tweak Manifest Mind and make Information Overload dismiss the mind - it's certainly thematic (mind blowing!) and means the archivist can gamble on one long-range 'drone strike' (which does have a smite option after all), but doesn't allow them to just have an invulnerable proxy in combat.
Change to Manifest Mind:
Manifest Mind. As a bonus action while the item is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral presence, hovering in an unoccupied space that you can see within 60 feet of you. This presence is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. You determine its appearance; the Artificial Mind table offers suggested appearances based on the object’s main material.
Change to Information Overload:
Information Overload. As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class. Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1stlevel spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first. If you use this feature while you cannot see the target, the strain of doing so causes the mind to unmanifest.
I don't think it would need to carry any clarification that you can both overload and re-manifest the mind on the same turn, as by default that would be allowable.
N.B. "Unmanifest" seems to be a real word it turns out, though I'm not sure this is proper use of it.
I'm now bothered by how a caveat like needing to see the unoccupied space you plan to manifest your mind in could have been omitted in the first place. Perhaps they thought it was already implied with the phrase "unoccupied space"? Like, how could you know that a space within 60 ft of you was unoccupied if you couldn't see it?
Of course, it could be a space that you were in previously before you moved 60 ft, therefore knowing (or assuming, at least) that space is unoccupied intentionally for you to manifest your mind in? I can see that being abused in like a chase-sequence through a winding hallway where the party should never have line-of-sight of where they were in a previous round assuming they use at least their movement to push forward through said hallway.
But then again, such an encounter is already pretty niche so how often would you reasonably expect to have something like that happen during your campaign? Eh, they probably should and might as well throw in the line-of-sight caveat anyway, just in case.
Anyway, this is a good idea. Everything you said feels thematically appropriate to the inherent design of the mechanic as well as balanced and within the scope of allowable actions available to the manifested mind. If anything, this adds more to the archivist's action economy bringing it closer in line with the other three artificer subclasses's action economies; seriously, the only things an archivist can do as a BA with their subclass-specific abilities is manifest their mind, move their mind up to 30 ft to an unoccupied space they can see, and dismiss their mind if they wanted to. Dismissing the mind intentionally I can imagine would almost never happen in combat, just as you should really only need to manifest your mind once in combat, if not already prior to, given the RAW as they are now. Moving the mind as a BA will see the most use and frankly, that just sounds boring.
I'm curious about what your reasons are for why the archivist should be a subclass for the wizard. I'm curious because I know what my reasons are for the why the archivist should be a wizard subclass but I also understand (or at least, I have reasonable ideas about) why the version of the archivist that I want would not work as a wizard subclass.
Back to your point, your critiques have raised many valid concerns about the direction WotC is developing the game in. I hope you shared all these critiques in the survey when it was available because at the end of the day, this is still just an online forum for us in the community to interact with each other in. It's not the primordial ooze that new classes/races/spells/whatever crawl out of when they spawn anew. Not directly, anyway. Perhaps take a step back and remind yourself why this version upsets you so much. Because you've been coming off pretty tilted lately, especially in your latest post.
I will say this: you're probably right that the vast majority of D&D players don't need to be told to use their imagination when playing the game. But what about new players? People who genuinely have never played a TTRPG before, yet are curious to try? Is it wrong for the rules as written to tell them to be imaginative with the way they cast spells? Do you think that takes away from their enjoyment at the table? Or could it possibly add more to it by helping them figure out how they want to play the game while actually playing it?
I apologize if any of this came off preachy or condescending or in any other manner of offending you. But you keep coming back to the same points and I'm worried you'll eventually become incapable of letting them go. We get it: you think that the smite spells are too "divine" for an arcane inventor to be able to use (which, for the record, I agree with) and you think the Artillerist has the only subclass spell list that fits the subclass itself (which, for the record, I don't agree with). We can't stop you from sharing these opinions, just as you can't stop as from sharing ours. But maybe consider recusing yourself from posting and just read what others have to say about the class for awhile. After all, it's still just a game.
I don't simply associate Wizards with just casting spells. I see them as the class that values information and are keepers of information. Generally it isn't unheard of for a Wizard to have a library that contains vasts amount of information on various subjects. So it is them that I see who are looking for ways to store information beyond books and scrolls. Now the world of Eberron doesn't have Wizards, but other worlds do and it wouldn't be unheard for them to study ways of storing information.
I did point out the issues I had with the class in the survey, but for those that utilized the survey any area that allowed use to write anything, we were limited on the amount we could say. I understand that this is a community that allows us to interact with others and to share our thoughts and views on any number of topics. As for me being tilted I am. And as for the reasons why the 2019 UA Artificer upsets me is that they have taken it in a direction that I feel sacrifices crafting for spellcasting and other aspects that make it unusable in other worlds (official and homebrew). This class and subclasses are very specific to the world of Eberron. If I was in a campaign that was centered in Eberron my issues with the class and subclasses probably wouldn't be as severe. But not everyone plays in the world of Eberron and making a class that is specific to a single world denies other worlds of a class that could be great to play in those worlds(in my own opinion).
Most new players to TTRPG are not playing with all new players. They are generally playing with others that already have experience TTRPG. This veteran players will 9 times out of 10 encourage new players to use their imagination when they are playing. I think back to the movie The House with a Clock in Its Walls, where Jack Black's character is teach his nephew how to use magic. It took some time but his nephew found his own style of casting spells. New players just need to be encouraged to use their imagination, but the UA doesn't just give examples on how to use your imagination, it tells you to use your imagination.
I am not offended, I appreciate the critique. Also I would never stop someone from sharing their thoughts or views, I encourage them and am open to discourse. I do at times not share anything and just sit back and read what everyone has to say. However, I do respond to what people have to say when they respond to my posts. I am not trying to get the last word, I am just trying to point out things that they might not have thought of or considered. I thank you for your words and I would never attempt to silence you or others.
There is nothing inventive about giving a subclass more spells instead of coming up with a better ability/feature.
I guess cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, and warlock subclasses need new features then.
Cleric, Druid, and Warlock are spellcasters and not all spells in their subclasses spell lists fit that specific subclass (the Insect Plague spell doesn't fit the Cleric's Tempest subclass, Cone of Cold would be a better choice). The spell lists for the Paladin fit the subclasses, plus the Paladin class does not prioritize spell casting like D&D did with the Artificer. Finally, the Ranger didn't have subclass spell lists until XGtE and even then those spells fit those subclasses and there are only 5 spells each for those 3 subclasses (compared to the 10 spells each for the Artificer's subclasses).
It just occurred to me that maybe a simple fix would be to slightly tweak Manifest Mind and make Information Overload dismiss the mind - it's certainly thematic (mind blowing!) and means the archivist can gamble on one long-range 'drone strike' (which does have a smite option after all), but doesn't allow them to just have an invulnerable proxy in combat.
Change to Manifest Mind:
Manifest Mind. As a bonus action while the item is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral presence, hovering in an unoccupied space that you can see within 60 feet of you. This presence is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. You determine its appearance; the Artificial Mind table offers suggested appearances based on the object’s main material.
Change to Information Overload:
Information Overload. As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class. Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1stlevel spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first. If you use this feature while you cannot see the target, the strain of doing so causes the mind to unmanifest.
I don't think it would need to carry any clarification that you can both overload and re-manifest the mind on the same turn, as by default that would be allowable.
N.B. "Unmanifest" seems to be a real word it turns out, though I'm not sure this is proper use of it.
Would you prefer "disperse?"
Anyway, the second change doesn't really do much to reign in the Manifest Mind because the archivist can see through the mind and thus see the target remotely.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It just occurred to me that maybe a simple fix would be to slightly tweak Manifest Mind and make Information Overload dismiss the mind - it's certainly thematic (mind blowing!) and means the archivist can gamble on one long-range 'drone strike' (which does have a smite option after all), but doesn't allow them to just have an invulnerable proxy in combat.
Change to Manifest Mind:
Manifest Mind. As a bonus action while the item is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral presence, hovering in an unoccupied space that you can see within 60 feet of you. This presence is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. You determine its appearance; the Artificial Mind table offers suggested appearances based on the object’s main material.
Change to Information Overload:
Information Overload. As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class. Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1stlevel spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first. If you use this feature while you cannot see the target, the strain of doing so causes the mind to unmanifest.
I don't think it would need to carry any clarification that you can both overload and re-manifest the mind on the same turn, as by default that would be allowable.
N.B. "Unmanifest" seems to be a real word it turns out, though I'm not sure this is proper use of it.
Would you prefer "disperse?"
Anyway, the second change doesn't really do much to reign in the Manifest Mind because the archivist can see through the mind and thus see the target remotely.
"While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. As an action, you can hear and see using the mind’s senses, instead of your own, until your concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell)."
The section I emphasized I believe is what reigns in the Manifest Mind feature. Obviously, if you use your action during combat to perceive thru the mind's senses, then you're not using it to use information overload on a creature. And if you're concentrating on perceiving thru the mind's senses, then you're not concentrating on any other useful spells that require concentration to maintain. Maybe that won't reign it in that much in your opinion, but the opportunity costs on your action economy that come from the usage and maintenance of some of the archivist's manifested mind's abilities make it balanced that way IMO.
Small correction I think that wording means your concentration isn’t actually used up, it just means you can be knocked out of that effect in the same way as being knocked out of concentration. But independently. Let me know if I am mistaken on that, can’t remember a non homebrew place where that is used previously, maybe Mystic?
It also doesn’t say the Perceive lasts only once round So maybe the action order would be: BA Manifest MA Perceive, BA Move MA Overload, BA Move MA Overload, etc. But I do agree that would be a good place to add restrictions also.
Small correction I think that wording means your concentration isn’t actually used up, it just means you can be knocked out of that effect in the same way as being knocked out of concentration. But independently. Let me know if I am mistaken on that, can’t remember a non homebrew place where that is used previously, maybe Mystic?
It also doesn’t say the Perceive lasts only once round So maybe the action order would be: BA Manifest MA Perceive, BA Move MA Overload, BA Move MA Overload, etc. But I do agree that would be a good place to add restrictions also.
Only one other non-homebrew instance of an effect using concentration as if on a spell that I can think of is the Ghostly Gaze Eldritch Invocation for warlocks in Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
"As an action, you gain the ability to see through solid objects to a range of 30 feet. Within that range, you have darkvision if you don’t already have it. This special sight lasts for 1 minute or until your concentration ends (as if you were concentrating on a spell). During that time, you perceive objects as ghostly, transparent images."
I'm combing thru previous Sage Advice articles for any rulings regarding how the concentration aspect of this eldritch invocation is intended to work but so far coming up with nothing.
I'm sure there are a few other examples of such concentration effects already live in the game, I just don't remember any others.
I believe the inclusion of the caveat "(as if you were concentrating on a spell)" means that you're supposed to apply the same rules for concentrating on spell to the effect as if the effect were a spell itself. The rules for concentration only specify spells in their wording:
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
Casting another spell that requires concentration. You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concentrate on two spells at once.
Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die."
If we think of perceiving thru the manifested mind's senses as a spell itself, then by the transitive property:
casting a spell that requires concentration shouldmake you lose concentration on perceiving thru the manifested mind's senses,
taking damage while perceiving thru the MM's senses shouldrequire you to make a Constitution saving throw to maintain perceiving thru the MM's senses (separate saving throws for separate sources of damage),
and you shouldstop perceiving thru the MM's senses if you are incapacitated or if you die.
Each one of those bullet-points sounds more than reasonable to me, but I'm sure I'm biased at this point anyway.
I do think that maintaining sight through the Mind requires Concentration, but you only have to turn it on once and then it persists until you lose Concentration. You don't have to use your action every turn in order to keep it up. Meaning you're free to use Information Overload every turn after the first.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I still think people underestimate how potentially mind (ha) numbingly boring an Archivist's turn will be if they just hide and let Information Overload consume their entire turn. Yes it might be optimized to the point of it being the "best" way to play the Archivist... but that doesn't make it fun.
I still think people underestimate how potentially mind (ha) numbingly boring an Archivist's turn will be if they just hide and let Information Overload consume their entire turn. Yes it might be optimized to the point of it being the "best" way to play the Archivist... but that doesn't make it fun.
I agree. Even the (admittedly very few) hard min maxers in games I run still like variation beyond "I do this" each and every turn. That's why the majority of them don't do Sorclock or straight warlock and spam Eldritch Blast every turn, they go Paladin or Sorcadin and vary what they are doing each turn.
I still think people underestimate how potentially mind (ha) numbingly boring an Archivist's turn will be if they just hide and let Information Overload consume their entire turn. Yes it might be optimized to the point of it being the "best" way to play the Archivist... but that doesn't make it fun.
You're right, but from an OOC perspective there's plenty of people who like being extremely tactical, dislike opening their characters up to potential harm, and won't mind the repetitiveness at all.
And because mechanics also manifest IC it's still something that can happen in world and this would change the nature of combat and warfare.
It's just bad design, honestly, to allow something so exploitable, especially in 5E, which is otherwise fairly tight in balance. Don't design something that rewards and encourages boring tactics if you don't want people to use boring tactics.
I don't see why you're defending this particular design, especially since it's playtest material and should be critiqued hard right now so we get a better product in the end. I especially don't get why you're using the "but good/regular/real roleplayers won't use this tactic." That's not a good argument at all when you're at the design phase because a good designer tries to design for many types of end users.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
How about this as a redesign, taking on board the above comments:
Artificial Mind - Information Overload
As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you can see that is within 30 feet of you, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class.
Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first.
When you use this feature, you can instead target one creature the manifested mind can see that is within 30 feet of it. After doing this, the manifested mind is dismissed.
Basically turns it into more of a conventional cantrip than a drone attack (though of course it would wreck the game if it were to actually become a cantrip). The range is a tricky topic; 60 is the range of summoning the mind, 30 is how far the mind can move to pursue a target, 5 is the default range as-is - I thought the best compromise was 30 as a cantrip, plus upping the one-off drone attack to 30 (which means that you could potentially use Bonus Action then Action to reach 60 ft if need be).
Unrelatedly; it strikes me that this feature really needs some cantrip-esque clarification regardless e.g. is there a verbal or somatic requirement, any kind of visual or sound, is the target aware of the origins of the mental attack - are they even aware they were attacked if they save? Regardless of the remote combat question, this is currently Subtle Spell on steroids if you just walk within 5 ft of someone in a crowd or simply pose as a bystander while the manifested mind causes havoc - it's 100% untraceable, and you could easily frame someone by having the mind manifest next to them if you chose.
I do think that maintaining sight through the Mind requires Concentration, but you only have to turn it on once and then it persists until you lose Concentration. You don't have to use your action every turn in order to keep it up. Meaning you're free to use Information Overload every turn after the first.
Much better than the similar ability granted with Find Familiar.
I hope they put out an errata for Find Familiar with the same wording. :)
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
How about this as a redesign, taking on board the above comments:
Artificial Mind - Information Overload
As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you can see that is within 30 feet of you, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class.
Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first.
When you use this feature, you can instead target one creature the manifested mind can see that is within 30 feet of it. After doing this, the manifested mind is dismissed.
Basically turns it into more of a conventional cantrip than a drone attack (though of course it would wreck the game if it were to actually become a cantrip). The range is a tricky topic; 60 is the range of summoning the mind, 30 is how far the mind can move to pursue a target, 5 is the default range as-is - I thought the best compromise was 30 as a cantrip, plus upping the one-off drone attack to 30 (which means that you could potentially use Bonus Action then Action to reach 60 ft if need be).
Unrelatedly; it strikes me that this feature really needs some cantrip-esque clarification regardless e.g. is there a verbal or somatic requirement, any kind of visual or sound, is the target aware of the origins of the mental attack - are they even aware they were attacked if they save? Regardless of the remote combat question, this is currently Subtle Spell on steroids if you just walk within 5 ft of someone in a crowd or simply pose as a bystander while the manifested mind causes havoc - it's 100% untraceable, and you could easily frame someone by having the mind manifest next to them if you chose.
I like this redesign. At first, I debated if it wouldn't be more cumbersome and therefore balanced to just have the archivist's concentration on the MM's senses end instead of dismissing the MM after using the last effect you wrote. As you have it written now, the archivist could spend their next BA re-manifesting their MM and their next MA re-establishing concentration on the MM's senses, whereas my idea of breaking the archivist's concentration instead of dismissing the MM means they could spend their next MA re-establishing concentration on the MM's senses and their next BA after that MA moving the MM 30 ft. Your version is definitely more cumbersome to deal with post-usage; how much more actually scales with the distance between the archivist and the targeted creature since you can only manifest the MM up to 60 ft from the archivist. So well done there.
When I first read about the manifested mind, I imagined its manifest "ritual" as something out of the Persona JRPGs, specifically Persona 4 with cards. Of course, that's for manifesting the mind itself. Knowing whether a creature actually knows they're being targeted for information overload probably requires some more finessing of the available rules.
First, the MM manifests "as a Tiny spectral presence...[that] is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius". So the target of the information overload should be able to at least see the MM itself.
Then there's the effect of information overload itself: "you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well". I would interpret that as saying the targeted creature would "hear" the MM info-dumping into its brain. Also, if the target is "too distracted to defend itself well" on a successful "attack" with this feature, I think it's safe to assume that the target has "heard" the MM "attacking" its brain regardless of success.
So technically speaking, we can reasonably assume that the target of information overloadcan see the source of the "attack" and "hear" the effect as it occurs. Now it's just a matter of can the target itself take these perceptions and reasonably deduce that the MM is the source of the "attack" on its brain. And that is probably more up to the DM than the archivist themselves.
Then again, I could just as easily be wrong about everything that I just said :P
I still think people underestimate how potentially mind (ha) numbingly boring an Archivist's turn will be if they just hide and let Information Overload consume their entire turn. Yes it might be optimized to the point of it being the "best" way to play the Archivist... but that doesn't make it fun.
You're right, but from an OOC perspective there's plenty of people who like being extremely tactical, dislike opening their characters up to potential harm, and won't mind the repetitiveness at all.
And because mechanics also manifest IC it's still something that can happen in world and this would change the nature of combat and warfare.
It's just bad design, honestly, to allow something so exploitable, especially in 5E, which is otherwise fairly tight in balance. Don't design something that rewards and encourages boring tactics if you don't want people to use boring tactics.
I don't see why you're defending this particular design, especially since it's playtest material and should be critiqued hard right now so we get a better product in the end. I especially don't get why you're using the "but good/regular/real roleplayers won't use this tactic." That's not a good argument at all when you're at the design phase because a good designer tries to design for many types of end users.
I'm not and I don't see how you interpret my comment as defending the design. In fact, I stated the opposite, though I don't think it is as "overpowered" as many are stating it is, I still think it is boring.
I may have missed it but I was told the Artificer s treated lie a divine caster, meaning technically they KNOW all their spells they just choose what ones to prepare, But it is mention in lvl 6 Prototype wand, that you can put a cantrip into the wand, "Even ones you do not know " from the artificer list... so does that mean they are NOT treated as a divine caster after all?
I just discovered the updated version of the 2019 Artificer and I'm SO excited!!! I've been wanting to create an Artificer that works as an Illuminator in a library or monastery, and now here's one that's built to be based on calligraphy! I'm super stoked to use this.
I might be helping start a regular DND shared campaign at my local community center. I'm thinking Acquisitions Incorporated would be a good method to make that happen, and I'm really excited to see how an Artificer would mesh with that concept.
Lastly, I know the Artificer was built for Eberron but may have some space in Faerun, particularly in Lantan, but my favorite setting for campaigns is in and around Waterdeep. :) With the House of Wonders (a temple to Gond) and it being the birthplace of the new version of Mystra (Goddess of Magic), and as having an established trading partnership with Lantan (see their doubledecker bus system, or the introduction of Nimblewrights), I feel like it'd be an appropriate place to have some artificers. I'm excited to see how Artificers fit into Waterdeep, in addition to Eberron.
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It's not that I worry about a player exploiting Manifest Mind, necessarily, it's that it's such an easily exploitable ability that I don't see how any semi intelligent person IN CHARACTER would not know and use Manifest Mind in combat that way. It changes the game world because such a tactic, and counters to it, would become the lynchpin for combat strategy. If an ability exists in the world, it should make sense for the world and I don't think the ability as written does.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It just occurred to me that maybe a simple fix would be to slightly tweak Manifest Mind and make Information Overload dismiss the mind - it's certainly thematic (mind blowing!) and means the archivist can gamble on one long-range 'drone strike' (which does have a smite option after all), but doesn't allow them to just have an invulnerable proxy in combat.
Change to Manifest Mind:
Manifest Mind. As a bonus action while the item is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral presence, hovering in an unoccupied space that you can see within 60 feet of you. This presence is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. You determine its appearance; the Artificial Mind table offers suggested appearances based on the object’s main material.
Change to Information Overload:
Information Overload. As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class. Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1stlevel spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first. If you use this feature while you cannot see the target, the strain of doing so causes the mind to unmanifest.
I don't think it would need to carry any clarification that you can both overload and re-manifest the mind on the same turn, as by default that would be allowable.
N.B. "Unmanifest" seems to be a real word it turns out, though I'm not sure this is proper use of it.
I'm now bothered by how a caveat like needing to see the unoccupied space you plan to manifest your mind in could have been omitted in the first place. Perhaps they thought it was already implied with the phrase "unoccupied space"? Like, how could you know that a space within 60 ft of you was unoccupied if you couldn't see it?
Of course, it could be a space that you were in previously before you moved 60 ft, therefore knowing (or assuming, at least) that space is unoccupied intentionally for you to manifest your mind in? I can see that being abused in like a chase-sequence through a winding hallway where the party should never have line-of-sight of where they were in a previous round assuming they use at least their movement to push forward through said hallway.
But then again, such an encounter is already pretty niche so how often would you reasonably expect to have something like that happen during your campaign? Eh, they probably should and might as well throw in the line-of-sight caveat anyway, just in case.
Anyway, this is a good idea. Everything you said feels thematically appropriate to the inherent design of the mechanic as well as balanced and within the scope of allowable actions available to the manifested mind. If anything, this adds more to the archivist's action economy bringing it closer in line with the other three artificer subclasses's action economies; seriously, the only things an archivist can do as a BA with their subclass-specific abilities is manifest their mind, move their mind up to 30 ft to an unoccupied space they can see, and dismiss their mind if they wanted to. Dismissing the mind intentionally I can imagine would almost never happen in combat, just as you should really only need to manifest your mind once in combat, if not already prior to, given the RAW as they are now. Moving the mind as a BA will see the most use and frankly, that just sounds boring.
I don't simply associate Wizards with just casting spells. I see them as the class that values information and are keepers of information. Generally it isn't unheard of for a Wizard to have a library that contains vasts amount of information on various subjects. So it is them that I see who are looking for ways to store information beyond books and scrolls. Now the world of Eberron doesn't have Wizards, but other worlds do and it wouldn't be unheard for them to study ways of storing information.
I did point out the issues I had with the class in the survey, but for those that utilized the survey any area that allowed use to write anything, we were limited on the amount we could say. I understand that this is a community that allows us to interact with others and to share our thoughts and views on any number of topics. As for me being tilted I am. And as for the reasons why the 2019 UA Artificer upsets me is that they have taken it in a direction that I feel sacrifices crafting for spellcasting and other aspects that make it unusable in other worlds (official and homebrew). This class and subclasses are very specific to the world of Eberron. If I was in a campaign that was centered in Eberron my issues with the class and subclasses probably wouldn't be as severe. But not everyone plays in the world of Eberron and making a class that is specific to a single world denies other worlds of a class that could be great to play in those worlds(in my own opinion).
Most new players to TTRPG are not playing with all new players. They are generally playing with others that already have experience TTRPG. This veteran players will 9 times out of 10 encourage new players to use their imagination when they are playing. I think back to the movie The House with a Clock in Its Walls, where Jack Black's character is teach his nephew how to use magic. It took some time but his nephew found his own style of casting spells. New players just need to be encouraged to use their imagination, but the UA doesn't just give examples on how to use your imagination, it tells you to use your imagination.
I am not offended, I appreciate the critique. Also I would never stop someone from sharing their thoughts or views, I encourage them and am open to discourse. I do at times not share anything and just sit back and read what everyone has to say. However, I do respond to what people have to say when they respond to my posts. I am not trying to get the last word, I am just trying to point out things that they might not have thought of or considered. I thank you for your words and I would never attempt to silence you or others.
Cleric, Druid, and Warlock are spellcasters and not all spells in their subclasses spell lists fit that specific subclass (the Insect Plague spell doesn't fit the Cleric's Tempest subclass, Cone of Cold would be a better choice). The spell lists for the Paladin fit the subclasses, plus the Paladin class does not prioritize spell casting like D&D did with the Artificer. Finally, the Ranger didn't have subclass spell lists until XGtE and even then those spells fit those subclasses and there are only 5 spells each for those 3 subclasses (compared to the 10 spells each for the Artificer's subclasses).
Would you prefer "disperse?"
Anyway, the second change doesn't really do much to reign in the Manifest Mind because the archivist can see through the mind and thus see the target remotely.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
"While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. As an action, you can hear and see using the mind’s senses, instead of your own, until your concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell)."
The section I emphasized I believe is what reigns in the Manifest Mind feature. Obviously, if you use your action during combat to perceive thru the mind's senses, then you're not using it to use information overload on a creature. And if you're concentrating on perceiving thru the mind's senses, then you're not concentrating on any other useful spells that require concentration to maintain. Maybe that won't reign it in that much in your opinion, but the opportunity costs on your action economy that come from the usage and maintenance of some of the archivist's manifested mind's abilities make it balanced that way IMO.
Small correction I think that wording means your concentration isn’t actually used up, it just means you can be knocked out of that effect in the same way as being knocked out of concentration. But independently. Let me know if I am mistaken on that, can’t remember a non homebrew place where that is used previously, maybe Mystic?
It also doesn’t say the Perceive lasts only once round So maybe the action order would be: BA Manifest MA Perceive, BA Move MA Overload, BA Move MA Overload, etc. But I do agree that would be a good place to add restrictions also.
Only one other non-homebrew instance of an effect using concentration as if on a spell that I can think of is the Ghostly Gaze Eldritch Invocation for warlocks in Xanathar's Guide to Everything:
"As an action, you gain the ability to see through solid objects to a range of 30 feet. Within that range, you have darkvision if you don’t already have it. This special sight lasts for 1 minute or until your concentration ends (as if you were concentrating on a spell). During that time, you perceive objects as ghostly, transparent images."
I'm combing thru previous Sage Advice articles for any rulings regarding how the concentration aspect of this eldritch invocation is intended to work but so far coming up with nothing.
I'm sure there are a few other examples of such concentration effects already live in the game, I just don't remember any others.
I believe the inclusion of the caveat "(as if you were concentrating on a spell)" means that you're supposed to apply the same rules for concentrating on spell to the effect as if the effect were a spell itself. The rules for concentration only specify spells in their wording:
"Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
If we think of perceiving thru the manifested mind's senses as a spell itself, then by the transitive property:
Each one of those bullet-points sounds more than reasonable to me, but I'm sure I'm biased at this point anyway.
I do think that maintaining sight through the Mind requires Concentration, but you only have to turn it on once and then it persists until you lose Concentration. You don't have to use your action every turn in order to keep it up. Meaning you're free to use Information Overload every turn after the first.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yup you are right, found this stackexchange explaining:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/148896/can-you-use-a-concentration-spell-while-using-mantle-of-majesty
Still means you can do even less yourself as a Archevist, as MA, BA and Concentration is taken up while you hide 300ft away. :-)
BTW do range self and auras work from the Mind, also how about movement spells like Thunder Step.
I still think people underestimate how potentially mind (ha) numbingly boring an Archivist's turn will be if they just hide and let Information Overload consume their entire turn. Yes it might be optimized to the point of it being the "best" way to play the Archivist... but that doesn't make it fun.
I agree. Even the (admittedly very few) hard min maxers in games I run still like variation beyond "I do this" each and every turn. That's why the majority of them don't do Sorclock or straight warlock and spam Eldritch Blast every turn, they go Paladin or Sorcadin and vary what they are doing each turn.
DM for 3 campaigns
Lizardfolk Battle Smith Artificer
Gnome War Wizard
Human Tempest Cleric
You're right, but from an OOC perspective there's plenty of people who like being extremely tactical, dislike opening their characters up to potential harm, and won't mind the repetitiveness at all.
And because mechanics also manifest IC it's still something that can happen in world and this would change the nature of combat and warfare.
It's just bad design, honestly, to allow something so exploitable, especially in 5E, which is otherwise fairly tight in balance. Don't design something that rewards and encourages boring tactics if you don't want people to use boring tactics.
I don't see why you're defending this particular design, especially since it's playtest material and should be critiqued hard right now so we get a better product in the end. I especially don't get why you're using the "but good/regular/real roleplayers won't use this tactic." That's not a good argument at all when you're at the design phase because a good designer tries to design for many types of end users.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
How about this as a redesign, taking on board the above comments:
Artificial Mind - Information Overload
As an action while the item is on your person, you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you can see that is within 30 feet of you, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8) in this class.
Whenever you deal damage with this feature, you can expend a spell slot to deal extra damage to the target. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first.
When you use this feature, you can instead target one creature the manifested mind can see that is within 30 feet of it. After doing this, the manifested mind is dismissed.
Basically turns it into more of a conventional cantrip than a drone attack (though of course it would wreck the game if it were to actually become a cantrip). The range is a tricky topic; 60 is the range of summoning the mind, 30 is how far the mind can move to pursue a target, 5 is the default range as-is - I thought the best compromise was 30 as a cantrip, plus upping the one-off drone attack to 30 (which means that you could potentially use Bonus Action then Action to reach 60 ft if need be).
Unrelatedly; it strikes me that this feature really needs some cantrip-esque clarification regardless e.g. is there a verbal or somatic requirement, any kind of visual or sound, is the target aware of the origins of the mental attack - are they even aware they were attacked if they save? Regardless of the remote combat question, this is currently Subtle Spell on steroids if you just walk within 5 ft of someone in a crowd or simply pose as a bystander while the manifested mind causes havoc - it's 100% untraceable, and you could easily frame someone by having the mind manifest next to them if you chose.
Much better than the similar ability granted with Find Familiar.
I hope they put out an errata for Find Familiar with the same wording. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I like this redesign. At first, I debated if it wouldn't be more cumbersome and therefore balanced to just have the archivist's concentration on the MM's senses end instead of dismissing the MM after using the last effect you wrote. As you have it written now, the archivist could spend their next BA re-manifesting their MM and their next MA re-establishing concentration on the MM's senses, whereas my idea of breaking the archivist's concentration instead of dismissing the MM means they could spend their next MA re-establishing concentration on the MM's senses and their next BA after that MA moving the MM 30 ft. Your version is definitely more cumbersome to deal with post-usage; how much more actually scales with the distance between the archivist and the targeted creature since you can only manifest the MM up to 60 ft from the archivist. So well done there.
When I first read about the manifested mind, I imagined its manifest "ritual" as something out of the Persona JRPGs, specifically Persona 4 with cards. Of course, that's for manifesting the mind itself. Knowing whether a creature actually knows they're being targeted for information overload probably requires some more finessing of the available rules.
First, the MM manifests "as a Tiny spectral presence...[that] is intangible and invulnerable, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius". So the target of the information overload should be able to at least see the MM itself.
Then there's the effect of information overload itself: "you can try to magically overload the thoughts of one creature you or the mind can see that is within 5 feet of the manifested mind, channeling a jumble of information from the artificial mind. Unless the target succeeds on an Intelligence saving throw against your spell save DC, the target takes 1d8 psychic damage, and the next attack roll against it before the end of your next turn has advantage, since it is temporarily too distracted to defend itself well". I would interpret that as saying the targeted creature would "hear" the MM info-dumping into its brain. Also, if the target is "too distracted to defend itself well" on a successful "attack" with this feature, I think it's safe to assume that the target has "heard" the MM "attacking" its brain regardless of success.
So technically speaking, we can reasonably assume that the target of information overload can see the source of the "attack" and "hear" the effect as it occurs. Now it's just a matter of can the target itself take these perceptions and reasonably deduce that the MM is the source of the "attack" on its brain. And that is probably more up to the DM than the archivist themselves.
Then again, I could just as easily be wrong about everything that I just said :P
I'm not and I don't see how you interpret my comment as defending the design. In fact, I stated the opposite, though I don't think it is as "overpowered" as many are stating it is, I still think it is boring.
I may have missed it but
I was told the Artificer s treated lie a divine caster, meaning technically they KNOW all their spells they just choose what ones to prepare,
But
it is mention in lvl 6 Prototype wand, that you can put a cantrip into the wand, "Even ones you do not know " from the artificer list...
so does that mean they are NOT treated as a divine caster after all?
I just discovered the updated version of the 2019 Artificer and I'm SO excited!!! I've been wanting to create an Artificer that works as an Illuminator in a library or monastery, and now here's one that's built to be based on calligraphy! I'm super stoked to use this.
I might be helping start a regular DND shared campaign at my local community center. I'm thinking Acquisitions Incorporated would be a good method to make that happen, and I'm really excited to see how an Artificer would mesh with that concept.
Lastly, I know the Artificer was built for Eberron but may have some space in Faerun, particularly in Lantan, but my favorite setting for campaigns is in and around Waterdeep. :) With the House of Wonders (a temple to Gond) and it being the birthplace of the new version of Mystra (Goddess of Magic), and as having an established trading partnership with Lantan (see their doubledecker bus system, or the introduction of Nimblewrights), I feel like it'd be an appropriate place to have some artificers. I'm excited to see how Artificers fit into Waterdeep, in addition to Eberron.