How's that different from any other class, though? Most classes don't really get a special bonus on off-hand attacks. yeah okay, Hunter's Mark/Hex adds damage to off-hand attacks, but they're also restricted to affecting only one target at a time while Arcane Weapon applies to anything/everything you hit with the enchanted weapon.
Two-weapon fighting in general just...doesn't tend to be impressive in 5e. Sad, given all the cool dual-wielding tropes out there people'd like to play with, but Artificers aren't really any worse off than anyone else that doesn't get special bonuses to TWF.
At the recommendation of @Mezzurah, I decided to check out Kibbles Tasty’s homebrew Artificer (https://www.patreon.com/KibblesTasty/overview). I was hesitant about this homebrew Artificer when I saw the Iron Man-esque drawing on the first page. However, I kept an open mind and read it. Here are my thoughts about the homebrew.
At the offset the base class provides the subclass specialization at 1st level. I am not really a fan of this setup as it is like a person who is apprenticing has their specialization chosen for them from day one. Now there are a couple of original classes that get their subclasses at first level, but it is easy to see the reason why that is so.
The class maintains magic item analysis (2017 UA. 1st level) and tools expertise (2017 & 2019 UA, 2nd level) which I really like. As both of these features are great fit for the class. The class gains spellcasting at 2nd level which doesn’t make any sense. Given the nature of the class, it is better to have spellcasting at 1st level. Also, the designer created 13 spells the vast majority of which are unique to this homebrew Artificer class. And the vast majority of the spells are overpowered for their levels.
It is beyond this point that the base class starts going downhill. The subclasses get upgrades starting at 3rd level and continues on at the odd number levels up to 19th (5, 7, 9 etc.). The subclasses get upgrade points that can be used to obtain these upgrades.
At 6th level the player gains access to arcane reconstruction and cross disciplinary knowledge. Arcane reconstruction grants the player the mending cantrip and the cure wounds spell. However, if you already know the cure wounds spell you can select another. The mending cantrip and cure wounds spells more or less go together with the arcane reconstruction, but why would you get to chose another spell if you already have cure wounds it doesn’t make sense. Also, you can use cure wounds to heal constructs. This is something that goes against the very nature of the cure wounds spells. The cross disciplinary knowledge gives the player access to a feature from another subclass. If I wanted a certain feature in another subclass I would have picked it. This feature is overpowered.
Levels 7 and 18 allows the player to attune to 4 and 5 magical items respectively with wondrous items proficiency and wondrous item mastery. This is just a rename/rework of superior attunement. I am indifferent to these features.
From here we come to improved magical crafting (which is gained at 10th level). This feature allows the players to craft magical items at half the normal amount of time. And, the players can “make 1 hours of progress towards crafting a magic item, scroll or potion during a long rest”. Does them mean the 1 hour of progress occurs while the player is asleep?
At 10th level, the players also gain access to wondrous item recharge. This feature allows the players to recharge magic items that have charges at the expense of using a spell slot. But it seems that this only affects magic items that cast spells and doesn’t have abilities like Ring of the Ram.
The players gains access to the study of magic feature at 11th level. This feature allows the players to cast the spells detect magic and identify and allows advantage on Intelligence (Arcana) checks to understand the workings of magical traps, effects and runes. The first half of this feature completely negates the 1st level feature magic item analysis and the second half of the feature seems like it should be available at a lower level.
The final feature of the Artificer base class is peerless inventor that is available at 20th level. This feature allows the player to make a temporary version of a subclass upgrade. The upgrade last until a short rest and it usable again after a short or long rest. A feature that does nothing besides making the class more overpowered.
The creator of this homebrew Artificer also created a couple of feats. One feat can be taken multiple times and the other one that is overpowered.
There are 7 subclasses; Fleshsmith, Gadgetsmith, Golemsmith, Infusionsmith, Potionsmith (alchemist), Thundersmith (cross between battle smith and gunsmith), and Warsmith. All of the subclasses have upgrades and those upgrades are broken down into groups; unrestricted, 5th level, 9th level, 11th level and 15th level. Given the number of upgrades, it seems like the designer was seeing how many upgrades they can make with out worrying about balancing the class/subclass.
Think of the Fleshsmith as a Dr. Frankenstein that instead of building his monster, experiments on their own flesh. While some of the upgrades help other players, the majority are about body modifications to themselves. But nothing explains how the player actually modifies themselves. You can think of this subclass as something sort of like Matthew Mercer’s Order of the Mutant subclass for his Blood Hunter class.
Gadgetsmith is just as the name says, the player creates gadgets that aid them. There are 39 different gadgets that they player can create. The vast majority of those gadgets are combat orientated. There are 19 gadgets that are used to cast certain spells. However, of those 19 gadgets, 15 of them can’t be used again until the player finishes a short or long rest.
Golemsmith create their own mechanical servant. Not a bad idea but the various golem chassis are unbalanced. The warforged chassis receives 4 upgrades, the quadrupedal chassis has 4 upgrades, the winged chassis has 1 upgrade and 1 downgrade, and the launcher chassis has 1 upgrade and 1 downgrade. While some of the various upgrades for the golems sound plausible, the remainder makes the golem overpowered.
Infusionsmith is a subclass that I can get behind if it is reworked. This infusionsmith infuses items like the feature in the 2019 UA. The infusionsmith gains a wizard’s spellbook and is able to learn and cast wizard spells (why). They can infuse an item with magical properties to turn it into a personal weapon (they can change personal weapons after every long rest). The upgrades either expand the abilities of their personal weapon, allow them to learn additional spells, create items that simulates spells, or create magic items. These upgrades can be swapped out only when you reach a certain level.
The potionsmith is this guy's version of the alchemist. However, the various upgrades available for this class are not just potions or alchemical creations. There are upgrades that deal with the delivery of the alchemical creations, upgrades that expand the player’s spell list, creating a homunculus, creating gold, and stopping a person from aging.
The thundersmith is similar to the gunsmith except that the player isn’t limited to firearms; they also create melee weapons. This subclass has upgrades that are blatantly overpowered. There is no other way of describing this subclass.
The warsmith is the creators attempt to allow players to have Iron Man like armor and abilities. Just like the thundersmith subclass, this subclass is blatantly overpowered.
While I will admit that there are a few good ideas within this homebrew, those ideas do not balance out the completely overpowered aspects of this homebrew. Besides being completely overpowered, many aspects of the subclass expand upon spellcasting which I do not agree with. Besides the crafting bonus listed in the base class, infusionsmith subclass, and potionsmith subclass, there is no real crafting. All in all (in my own opinion) this homebrew is a complete failure.
@Marine2874 Fair enough. It is a homebrewed work, and as you say there are a lot of unbalanced aspects to it that need addressing (and I was basing my recommendation around a previous version, which was a bit more in line with the 2017 UA Artificer but not substantially so, so I doubt that'd affect your opinion) but some of the ideas behind it do grab me. Call it a guilty pleasure.
@Arutha They probably didn't account for that because they were already putting in BA uses as starting features for subclasses, which seems to be a big part of the design element they were going for, for good or for bad. One thought I'd had for a possible wandslinger subclass was that it could gain a basic spell attack using wands that incrementally improves as you advance in level, and that the bonus action could be used in making an offhand attack with the wand/s that they're using. Just an idea that's been kicking around a bit in my head.
EDIT: I just realized you were speaking partly in regards to the Arcane Weapon spell. Apologies for missing that.
I think they said SSI was likely going to become an infusion but then you can only have one item storing spells, so I am not a big fan.
I suggested either that infusion lets you make Int Mod items in the text similar to many handed pouch, or is the default for Infuse Item: “You can infuse an item with Spell Storing or or one of the Infusions you know. You can have 2 items infused increasing as you level.”
But preferably include whatever solution they decide on spell slots used.
Might end up being one of those things you'll have to homebrew.
Heh, I get ye, though. I absolutely HATE that the only thing anyone ever wants an 'Alchemist" to be is a frizzy-haired, crazy-eyed madman cackling like an asylum escapee as he hurls expensive laboratory glassware full of acid around. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. Especially when that style of play is just one basic-ass reskin of an Acid Splash cantrip away anyways. I was overjoyed when the Alchemist in the 2019 document was retooled to be an actual inventor and creator of stuff who uses alchemical formulae and processes to do interesting things rather than just douse everyone in sodium while doing my best Doc Brown-on-chemical-fumes impression.
Preeeetty sure that's going away in the official release, as the reaction to the Alchemist subclass having an interesting little mechanical familiar - because people forget that the actual alchemists, back in the days of history, were interested in the creation and sustaining of life and the pursuit of immortality - was apparently overall poor. So we're going to end up with the potion-flinging ass bandit back and I'll have to find a way to homebrew it into something that actually makes sense again. Totally understand your pain.
the alchemist in this iteration is about alchemy, which is about transmutation magic and properties... my biggest problem is that we already have someone like that... the transmutation wizard. while i do like to give archetypes to other classes because of their innate abilities that makes things different. i dont like having the very same archetype on two different classes. i have to admit that while i really loved the artificer in 3e... i could literally do the same thing with my wizard. and thus its not all that great a thing. i preffer the artificer being a real toolsmith. creation of a turret is one thing i do love about him. creation of potion injectors would be great too. you know the kind of things that makes them actually tinkerer. i do not think an alchemist is a thing we should focus on.
my friend and i are working on a tinkerer class for the wizard, we call it the Combat Witch since he's playing an old woman anyway. basically it has the choice of abilities much like the fighter battle master where she can prepare a number of tinkers equal to 1 + intellect per day. she gains more as she gains levels and have to choose between things like the Life Injector. basically she gains a ressurection tinker at level 2. but it has only a few % of working if its not then the body is ruined. my friend likes it, he calls it his life jumper cables. basically he has a car battery with jumper cables on his belt. thats the kind of thing i think of when i think artificer. but thats one basic thing. he has adrenaline needles giving temp hp to friends. that sort of things.
yeah at this point i'd base myself on 3e and just recreate the thing. i mean its easy porting that kind of thing. after all 5e is literally based on 3e. but i love the new artificer, more then the last and i think it doesn't need to be all about DPS. but thats what the majority wants anyway...
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Has WotC released the results of the survey? I remember watching them talk a little bit about some of the feedback they got in some of the Dragon+ discussions, but I think those were before the survey was released.
I have to disagree with your assessment on the 2017 and 2019 Artificer Alchemist. I do not see the Alchemist as a "frizzy-haired, crazy-eye madman cackling like an asylum escapee as he hurls expensive laboratory glassware full of acid around". I see the alchemist as someone who carries a satchel around (similar to the components pouch). That satchel contains various ingredients that when combined produce a chemical reaction. To address these various chemical reactions, alchemical formulas (like in the 2017 Artificer UA) can be created (something original instead of just reskinning a spell).
If you want to look at a reskinned Acid Splash cantrip, then look no further than the 2019 Alchemist. The 2019 Alchemist wasn't "retooled to be an actual inventor and creator of stuff". With the exception of having a familiar (which in my opinion blows), the entire subclass expands upon the spellcasting ability of the Artificer (which I hate). I will be the first one to say that the 2017 Alchemist wasn't perfect and as a matter of fact it was broken. But at least the 2017 Alchemist has something other than expanded spellcasting. The 2019 Artificer and Alchemist is just a reskinned caster. There is nothing inventive or creative about it.
Example of 2019 Artificer Alchemist... I pull out my hand crossbow, load it with a modified bolt and use Melf's Acid Arrow. Or how about I pull an expensive look glass container from my pouch and throw it at 2 goblins that are standing next to each other and use Acid Splash. Yeah real inventive. While the 2017 Alchemist wasn't perfect, at least it didn't have any direct damaging SPELLS.
All in all, not everyone will like all or part of the Artificer that D&D is putting together.
I did mention at the end that there are a few good ideas within that homebrew. I might even use some of those ideas in my Artificer homebrew. But overall it was a tough read. I thank you for directing me to this homebrew.
Like you, "I prefer the artificer being a real toolsmith". I see the Artillerist coming up with an idea for a new turret. Once the designs/blueprints are complete, they crafts the full size version of the turret. After ensuring that the turret functions like it is suppose to, the Artillerist enchants the turret to shrink in size to something that fits in the palm of their hand. And when the Artillerist uses the turret, they place it on the ground and speak a word or phrase that causes the turret to grow to its full size and activates.
This is actual crafting, not magically summon a turret out of thin air. But like you said, people are more worried about combat and DPS.
The issue with being "a real toolsmith" in the way you're asking - and only that - is that it means the class is absolutely useless anywhere but downtime. Which is rich coming from me, I know, but in this case I'd point out that the artificer can, in fact, fight perfectly fine. It's not as explosive as certain multiclasses, and it could potentially use a bit of uptweak depending on, but if everything the artificer did took weeks instead of actions, they'd be effectively unplayable.
You get four different crafting tool expertises of your choice, minimum. Backgrounds often offer at least one more. Other tool proficiencies can be trained in downtime, or acquired via the Skilled feat. Those Expertise-level proficiencies (and a sufficiently open-minded DM) should really be all one needs to get to crafting. Removing ALL spell abilities and ALL weapon abilities from the artificer basically makes it an NPC crafter, not a player class.
Yurei... To that i answer... Was a wizard back in 3e that useless ???
Comparision... In 3e wizard could craft thousands of scrolls and be ready for everything. I literally had infinite spell slots thanks to those downtimes and that why they called it the batman mage.
Lets put your theory to the test.
The artificer creates a turret. Has the ability to enchant or infuse stuff to make the group stronger. That turret... Unless you destroy it. Will stay there. Were talking permanent item here. Potions... Nobody does them but i do in my games and they have saved my party a tons of times.
So to put it bluntly... It may take downtime... But what a downtime if it can save your whole party back at the next fight ?
Again compare 3e to 5e... Because they are literally built on the same frame. Back in 3e the artificer was considered easy mode for any group. And that artificer was entirely built for downtimes and rests. Yet it was invaluable to any groups who could afford one.
I think you are just not liking downtimes and that means you are not liking when your players takes rests. You preffer the video game aspect where everything is just instant. Thats what i get when i hear that argument. Downtimes are a must in a game. And well planned downtimes can be as great as any fireballs in a fight.
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Nothing in any of my posts said anything about "removing ALL spell abilities and ALL weapon abilities from the Artificer". I am however, not a fan of sacrificing crafting abilities for an expanded spellcasting ability.
Downtime is important for any group and game. From experience, during downtime, an adventuring group doesn't do everything together. Some may do shopping, some may do research, some may do training, some may do crafting, and some may get drunk. So it isn't unheard for say an Artificer to spend their downtime working on designs and/or crafting. Also, instead of an extensive downtime explanation, the DM could require the Artificer make a series of crafting rolls periodically to simulate the Artificer's crafting of an item over a period of time.
@marine2874 they are against downtime and what they want is for instant effects from the artificer, just like casters have 1 action spells that just do the same shit the artificer would do. because thats what players are all about now a days. doing soemthing every single second or the bad guy wins. heck i even have had a player who was convincing the others that short rest were totally useless and that planning long rest and how to use ressources was just better. the guy just wanted this to be a strategy game and everything the party did was either a waste of time or an XP grind to get to the boss. and by XP, since weplayed milestones... he was calculating and literally told the group, you have 1 hour to buy your stuff afterward we're late to the party and we need to get the ball rolling again.
can you imagine how fucked up that is ? but listening to these people in this very thread... downtime is bullshit and serves no purpose and thus they want the class to be able to do everything in an instant. like the long rest boosting, the infusion. take 1 hour get awesome buff. while i want the more traditionnal artificer, the one who used downtimes effectively. all this is easily prooven by the fact that everyone wants crafting to do be in a matter of hours and not days. like i am enchanting that longsword for a +1. how long ? 5 days ! that long ! shit, i'll try and find one int he next dungeon by killing all bosses and looting, more chances at finding one. and then i roll my eyes because i know thats false... and this is not just a single guy... i have 3 groups right now, on those 3 groups, only 3 people know each others... that over 15 players. thats about 12 players who all think this way. why so ? because video games, RPGs have shown people that time passes easily fast without consequences. lie the player creates a gear, you see the animation and then hand waved to the end where the player has the item, only to not realise he has passed 2 days, for him it was instant. or hell, 15 seconds.
that's my problem... people thinking everything must be done now, or we lose time for no reasons. time management has been relegated to the back end of the priorities.
this is why i love downtime from adventurers league. it is clear and precise and players can actually do stuff with it. brinign it into a necessity for players in adventurers league. and it makes it feel like a true adventurers life. you know the one guy who is not always and constantly craving for adventures and gold.
to me the artificer was the epitome of that life.
but i guess they aren't like that and just want a a class that does everything instantly...
So it looks like the Eberron book will come out in November. Do we know when the artificer playtest will be taken off of DnD Beyond? Just want to make sure I print out a hard copy of my artificer character in case there's a gap between when the playtest is available and when I can buy the class from the new book.