Since we won't know what WotC are envisioning until the next iteration of the artificer is released, I'm curious what members of the D&D Beyond community would prefer with regards to the base artificer offensive style?
Though, of course, this is entwined with the thorny issue of offense for each artificer sub-class... ideally vote above & write about that in a post too!
---------------------------------------- My preferences ----------------------------------------
I really don't like the current configuration - both the conflict between base & subclass offenses (2nd attack vs cantrip damage bonus), and the underwhelming nature of the offensive feats in general (being weaker than Extra Attack or Potent Spellcasting with little compensation).
Push comes to shove, I think I'd wipe the slate clean and just remove all offensive enhancements from the base artificer class:
Keep the current weapon proficiencies but remove Arcane Armanent.
Remove all offensive cantrips from the base spell list.
I would then like each sub-class to follow a standard model for introducing their respective offensive enhancements:
At level 3 each sub-class introduces their favored form of offense.
At level 6 each sub-class introduces their offensive augment.
So, in my vision, the sub-classes would look as follows...
Alchemist
Alchemical Attack: From level 3 you can use your Attack action to make a ranged spell attack with 30 ft range that deals 1d10 acid, fire or poison damage (your choice). This attack ignores half cover and three-quarters cover. Damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).
Potent Chemicals: Starting at 6th level, you add your Intelligence modifier to the damage you deal with Alchemical Attack.
Archivist
No change - meaning offense is entirely centred on Information Overload (possibly with a slight range increase when using the item as a focus rather than the manifested mind).
Artillerist
Cognitive Acuity: From level 3 when you attack with a ranged weapon, you can use your Intelligence modifier, instead of Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.
Personal Arsenal: Starting at 6th level, while you are using a ranged weapon you can attack twice (instead of once) whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Ignore the loading property of your weapon, if it has it. Your ranged weapon attacks require no ammunition; one piece of ammunition is magically produced each time you make a ranged attack, unless you manually load it. Magically produced ammunition vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
I think artificers should sort of fit the same niche as bards. Their cantrips and weapon proficiencies are fine, but the arcane armament should be a subclass feature (like battle smith or possible future subclasses). Subclasses that don't get arcane armament should get some version of potent cantrip at the same level.
I also think level 7 and 15 need am additional class or subclass feature here. It can be a minor enhancement of an existing feature, but it needs something.
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
I fear Alchemical Mastery doesn't line up that way - I think the most likely interpretation is that you could add the Alchemical Mastery bonus once per casting of Arcane Weapon, with the danger being that the DM rules it doesn't qualify at all because the damage roll and the casting don't happen together:
"When you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
So I think the options are maybe...
3 Crossbow attacks with Arcane Weapon for 3 x (2d6 + DEX) - all attacks.
Acid Splash & homunculus for (2d6 + INT) + (1d6 + 3) with small possibility of splash damage - one DEX save & one attack.
Poison Spray & homunculus for (2d10 + INT) + (1d6 + 3) within 10 ft of opponent - one CON save & one attack.
Crossbow is still the optimal damage dealer in all scenarios (because the crossbow can itself be magical while both the cantrip & homunculus options are individually meh), but at the cost of concentration, spell slots, spell saves (since pumping DEX over INT) & a feat.
I'd say it is just about balanced, but I'd be delighted in they would invent one cantrip specifically for the alchemist that deals acid or poison damage from a ranged spell attack...
I'd say it is just about balanced, but I'd be delighted in they would invent one cantrip specifically for the alchemist that deals acid or poison damage from a ranged spell attack...
I agree that the artificer still needs more exclusive spells. A cantrip that can deal different damage types is a perfect start.
I'd say it is just about balanced, but I'd be delighted in they would invent one cantrip specifically for the alchemist that deals acid or poison damage from a ranged spell attack...
I agree that the artificer still needs more exclusive spells. A cantrip that can deal different damage types is a perfect start.
Maybe not what you were thinking of for a cantrip that can deal different damage types, but you inspired me to homebrew this: Retributive Reflect
I like the current model. Crossbow Expert + Arcane Armament + Hand-crossbow + Repeating Shot Infusion seems like a reasonable way to make a playable character that deals a decent amount of damage but certianly not as much as even a Warlock's Eldirthch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + Hex or a raging barbarian with great weapon. The problem I see is that specialties don't have enough strength, like Information Overload isn't large enough to compete with crossbow combo.
On Arcane Armament:
As for Arcane Armament, the survey results from dndnext Reddit don't look too good or bad. So it is unclear if WotC would rethink it base on the data:
Arcane Armament
1 - 10%
2 - 15%
3 - 29%
4 - 24%
5 - 23%
Average - 3.36
All other classes have some means of getting at least two attacks.
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
If its Battle Smith, he uses Int Mod instead of Dex Mod for magic weapon attacks starting on 3rd level. Also Arcane Weapon only adds 1d6 per attack no mod unless I missed something. If I did please tell me!!!
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
If its Battle Smith, he uses Int Mod instead of Dex Mod for magic weapon attacks starting on 3rd level. Also Arcane Weapon only adds 1d6 per attack no mod unless I missed something. If I did please tell me!!!
Apologies, I should have formatted my post better. My comment about Arcane Armament being better suited for the Battle Smith specifically should have been a single, standalone sentence, separate from my Crossbow Expert example as that was referring to the Alchemist subclass, not the Battle Smith.
My argument that Arcane Armament should be only for the Battle Smith is that we already have live versions of similar effects as subclass features: Valor and Sword Bards get Extra Attack as their 6th-level feature.
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
If its Battle Smith, he uses Int Mod instead of Dex Mod for magic weapon attacks starting on 3rd level. Also Arcane Weapon only adds 1d6 per attack no mod unless I missed something. If I did please tell me!!!
Apologies, I should have formatted my post better. My comment about Arcane Armament being better suited for the Battle Smith specifically should have been a single, standalone sentence, separate from my Crossbow Expert example as that was referring to the Alchemist subclass, not the Battle Smith.
My argument that Arcane Armament should be only for the Battle Smith is that we already have live versions of similar effects as subclass features: Valor and Sword Bards get Extra Attack as their 6th-level feature.
I see... but won't that make magic weapons that much less useful for the Artificers who make them? Even if you claim to be say an Alchemist, you will spend two levels as a generic artificer.
Quite honestly, an Artificer of any kind who doesn't get some sort of bonus when using magic weapons seems... off, dont you think?
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
If its Battle Smith, he uses Int Mod instead of Dex Mod for magic weapon attacks starting on 3rd level. Also Arcane Weapon only adds 1d6 per attack no mod unless I missed something. If I did please tell me!!!
Apologies, I should have formatted my post better. My comment about Arcane Armament being better suited for the Battle Smith specifically should have been a single, standalone sentence, separate from my Crossbow Expert example as that was referring to the Alchemist subclass, not the Battle Smith.
My argument that Arcane Armament should be only for the Battle Smith is that we already have live versions of similar effects as subclass features: Valor and Sword Bards get Extra Attack as their 6th-level feature.
I see... but won't that make magic weapons that much less useful for the Artificers who make them? Even if you claim to be say an Alchemist, you will spend two levels as a generic artificer.
Quite honestly, an Artificer of any kind who doesn't get some sort of bonus when using magic weapons seems... off, dont you think?
I do agree that all artificers should get some sort of bonus when using magic weapons. But just because you can make magic weapons doesn't automatically mean you'd be good at using them. For example, look at the Forge Cleric's Blessing of the Forge feature: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to imbue magic into a weapon or armor. At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon." A forge cleric has proficiency with all types of armor and shields, and all simple weapons but not martial weapons.
The issue with having all artificers able to attack twice with magic weapons is that it complicates the action economy the artificer has access to during combat. Do I use my Action to cast a spell like a damaging cantrip, or do I use my Action to attack with my magic weapons? Other half-casters don't have cantrips to use in combat, and most full casters don't have a free extra attack by design. All artificers should be able to make magic weapons, but the Battle Smith makes the most sense being the subclass to get bonuses when using magic weapons.
On that note... would a Battle Smith dipping into Arcane Archer be viable?
Everything mentioned previously, plus:
Fighting Style: Archery, all martial weapons means Longbows, Second Wind and Action Surge, 2 arcane shots which you can use twice per short rest.
Playing with a a teched-out longbow and a couple arrows may go a long way. Too bad arcane shots cannot be re-chosen per night.
Arcane Archer is very viable as a multiclass option. Several of the other fighter archetypes are also viable options: Eldritch Knight, Battlemaster, Champion, even the Gunslinger appropriately enough. I know the Gunslinger's Grit Point system is Wisdom based but it can easily be reskinned to Intelligence instead, which I believe is how Taliesin Jaffe played Percy on "Critical Role".
I think artificers should sort of fit the same niche as bards. Their cantrips and weapon proficiencies are fine, but the arcane armament should be a subclass feature (like battle smith or possible future subclasses). Subclasses that don't get arcane armament should get some version of potent cantrip at the same level.
I also think level 7 and 15 need am additional class or subclass feature here. It can be a minor enhancement of an existing feature, but it needs something.
I think putting the +1 attunement slots back in would be perfect for 7th and 15th.
I think artificers should sort of fit the same niche as bards. Their cantrips and weapon proficiencies are fine, but the arcane armament should be a subclass feature (like battle smith or possible future subclasses). Subclasses that don't get arcane armament should get some version of potent cantrip at the same level.
I also think level 7 and 15 need am additional class or subclass feature here. It can be a minor enhancement of an existing feature, but it needs something.
I think putting the +1 attunement slots back in would be perfect for 7th and 15th.
I really like that idea. Better than back loading it with a sudden +3 at level 20.
Other half-casters don't have cantrips to use in combat, and most full casters don't have a free extra attack by design. All artificers should be able to make magic weapons, but the Battle Smith makes the most sense being the subclass to get bonuses when using magic weapons.
Warlock? I suppose they aren't quite 1/2 caster -- they are both more and less then a 1/2 caster. That said, none of the cantrips or specializations they get compare to Eldritch Blast. The three attacks possible from Arcane Armament + Crossbow Expert + Repeating Shot seems like the best combo they can get -- and it slightly worse than a Warlock's EB spam. My point, taking away Arcane Armament would only work if you gave them something like EB (but EB is the warlock's bag, so that isn't a good idea.), or making attacks like Information Overload stronger.
Imo, the poll is missing an option, namely that it should be completely down to the subclass.
The "Cantrips without bonus damage (wizard model)" and "Basic - no attack enhancements, no offensive cantrips" options are intended to cover that, depending on your view on artificer having offensive magic. ^_^
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Since we won't know what WotC are envisioning until the next iteration of the artificer is released, I'm curious what members of the D&D Beyond community would prefer with regards to the base artificer offensive style?
Though, of course, this is entwined with the thorny issue of offense for each artificer sub-class... ideally vote above & write about that in a post too!
---------------------------------------- My preferences ----------------------------------------
I really don't like the current configuration - both the conflict between base & subclass offenses (2nd attack vs cantrip damage bonus), and the underwhelming nature of the offensive feats in general (being weaker than Extra Attack or Potent Spellcasting with little compensation).
Push comes to shove, I think I'd wipe the slate clean and just remove all offensive enhancements from the base artificer class:
I would then like each sub-class to follow a standard model for introducing their respective offensive enhancements:
So, in my vision, the sub-classes would look as follows...
Alchemist
Alchemical Attack: From level 3 you can use your Attack action to make a ranged spell attack with 30 ft range that deals 1d10 acid, fire or poison damage (your choice). This attack ignores half cover and three-quarters cover. Damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).
Potent Chemicals: Starting at 6th level, you add your Intelligence modifier to the damage you deal with Alchemical Attack.
Archivist
No change - meaning offense is entirely centred on Information Overload (possibly with a slight range increase when using the item as a focus rather than the manifested mind).
Artillerist
Cognitive Acuity: From level 3 when you attack with a ranged weapon, you can use your Intelligence modifier, instead of Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.
Personal Arsenal: Starting at 6th level, while you are using a ranged weapon you can attack twice (instead of once) whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Ignore the loading property of your weapon, if it has it. Your ranged weapon attacks require no ammunition; one piece of ammunition is magically produced each time you make a ranged attack, unless you manually load it. Magically produced ammunition vanishes the instant after it hits or misses a target.
Battle Smith
No change - Battle Ready & Arcane Jolt.
I think artificers should sort of fit the same niche as bards. Their cantrips and weapon proficiencies are fine, but the arcane armament should be a subclass feature (like battle smith or possible future subclasses). Subclasses that don't get arcane armament should get some version of potent cantrip at the same level.
I also think level 7 and 15 need am additional class or subclass feature here. It can be a minor enhancement of an existing feature, but it needs something.
Arcane Armament fits better as a subclass feature, especially for the Battle Smith. As the class is right now, a 6th-level Alchemist with Crossbow Expert and a hand crossbow with arcane weapon set to acid/poison damage cast on it can make up to three attacks in one round for 2d6 damage with each attack (1d6 for crossbow damage, 1d6 for the arcane weapon damage). Effectively, this is the scorching ray spell at the additional cost of a bonus action, but you're also adding your Dexterity modifier (for the weapon damage) and your Intelligence modifier (for the arcane weapon damage) to each "ray".
I fear Alchemical Mastery doesn't line up that way - I think the most likely interpretation is that you could add the Alchemical Mastery bonus once per casting of Arcane Weapon, with the danger being that the DM rules it doesn't qualify at all because the damage roll and the casting don't happen together:
"When you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid or poison damage, and the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
So I think the options are maybe...
Crossbow is still the optimal damage dealer in all scenarios (because the crossbow can itself be magical while both the cantrip & homunculus options are individually meh), but at the cost of concentration, spell slots, spell saves (since pumping DEX over INT) & a feat.
I'd say it is just about balanced, but I'd be delighted in they would invent one cantrip specifically for the alchemist that deals acid or poison damage from a ranged spell attack...
I agree that the artificer still needs more exclusive spells. A cantrip that can deal different damage types is a perfect start.
Maybe not what you were thinking of for a cantrip that can deal different damage types, but you inspired me to homebrew this: Retributive Reflect
Edited to update link to spell.
I like the current model for the most part, but I wish there was a way to beef up Cantrips so that people who want to eschew weapons could.
Maybe just an Arcane Implement spell that does the same thing as Arcane Weapon but adds a die of elemental damage to cantrips instead?
Yeah I like the current model as well. Only thing I wish for is more ritual spells and a few more Artificer only spells at higher levels.
I like the current model. Crossbow Expert + Arcane Armament + Hand-crossbow + Repeating Shot Infusion seems like a reasonable way to make a playable character that deals a decent amount of damage but certianly not as much as even a Warlock's Eldirthch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast + Hex or a raging barbarian with great weapon. The problem I see is that specialties don't have enough strength, like Information Overload isn't large enough to compete with crossbow combo.
On Arcane Armament:
As for Arcane Armament, the survey results from dndnext Reddit don't look too good or bad. So it is unclear if WotC would rethink it base on the data:
All other classes have some means of getting at least two attacks.
If its Battle Smith, he uses Int Mod instead of Dex Mod for magic weapon attacks starting on 3rd level. Also Arcane Weapon only adds 1d6 per attack no mod unless I missed something. If I did please tell me!!!
Apologies, I should have formatted my post better. My comment about Arcane Armament being better suited for the Battle Smith specifically should have been a single, standalone sentence, separate from my Crossbow Expert example as that was referring to the Alchemist subclass, not the Battle Smith.
My argument that Arcane Armament should be only for the Battle Smith is that we already have live versions of similar effects as subclass features: Valor and Sword Bards get Extra Attack as their 6th-level feature.
I see... but won't that make magic weapons that much less useful for the Artificers who make them? Even if you claim to be say an Alchemist, you will spend two levels as a generic artificer.
Quite honestly, an Artificer of any kind who doesn't get some sort of bonus when using magic weapons seems... off, dont you think?
On that note... would a Battle Smith dipping into Arcane Archer be viable?
Everything mentioned previously, plus:
Fighting Style: Archery, all martial weapons means Longbows, Second Wind and Action Surge, 2 arcane shots which you can use twice per short rest.
Playing with a a teched-out longbow and a couple arrows may go a long way. Too bad arcane shots cannot be re-chosen per night.
I do agree that all artificers should get some sort of bonus when using magic weapons. But just because you can make magic weapons doesn't automatically mean you'd be good at using them. For example, look at the Forge Cleric's Blessing of the Forge feature: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to imbue magic into a weapon or armor. At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon." A forge cleric has proficiency with all types of armor and shields, and all simple weapons but not martial weapons.
The issue with having all artificers able to attack twice with magic weapons is that it complicates the action economy the artificer has access to during combat. Do I use my Action to cast a spell like a damaging cantrip, or do I use my Action to attack with my magic weapons? Other half-casters don't have cantrips to use in combat, and most full casters don't have a free extra attack by design. All artificers should be able to make magic weapons, but the Battle Smith makes the most sense being the subclass to get bonuses when using magic weapons.
Arcane Archer is very viable as a multiclass option. Several of the other fighter archetypes are also viable options: Eldritch Knight, Battlemaster, Champion, even the Gunslinger appropriately enough. I know the Gunslinger's Grit Point system is Wisdom based but it can easily be reskinned to Intelligence instead, which I believe is how Taliesin Jaffe played Percy on "Critical Role".
I think putting the +1 attunement slots back in would be perfect for 7th and 15th.
I really like that idea. Better than back loading it with a sudden +3 at level 20.
Warlock? I suppose they aren't quite 1/2 caster -- they are both more and less then a 1/2 caster. That said, none of the cantrips or specializations they get compare to Eldritch Blast. The three attacks possible from Arcane Armament + Crossbow Expert + Repeating Shot seems like the best combo they can get -- and it slightly worse than a Warlock's EB spam. My point, taking away Arcane Armament would only work if you gave them something like EB (but EB is the warlock's bag, so that isn't a good idea.), or making attacks like Information Overload stronger.
Imo, the poll is missing an option, namely that it should be completely down to the subclass.
The "Cantrips without bonus damage (wizard model)" and "Basic - no attack enhancements, no offensive cantrips" options are intended to cover that, depending on your view on artificer having offensive magic. ^_^