But by spell storing item they probably mean the non spell slot expending one, so you can have extra lower level spells. Maybe not 2*INT, but just INT could work. (a version of the artificer supposedly leaked, for the 1st four levels.)
This isn't an artificer thread, so I'll try not to comment further on people's unrealistic and unreasonable expectations for the class.
But I will say that it will be interesting to see which of these experimental features they may or may not be testing out in the artificer. Heh, this is the first time since the books went live that a new Super Official Class is releasing, so it's the first chance Wizards has had in five years to actually learn from their mistakes in 5e. I'm eager to see how that shakes down (and also dreading what they're going to do to my poor class...)
I think they mean the spell storing item that does not expend a spell slot and can be cast out of multiple times, not the "expend a spell slot and another person can cast this spell" version. Which apparently is going to be one of the alchemists abilities? I guess that makes sense, potion crafting and all, but I hope they get something good along with that as well.
The class feature I am talking about is literally called "Spell-Storing Item" that the Artificer currently gets at level 18. What I am talking about is moving "The Right Cantrip for the Job" class feature from level 10 down to level 1 and moving "Spell-Storing Item" from level 18 down to level 10 and then have something else at level 18.
This isn't an artificer thread, so I'll try not to comment further on people's unrealistic and unreasonable expectations for the class.
But I will say that it will be interesting to see which of these experimental features they may or may not be testing out in the artificer. Heh, this is the first time since the books went live that a new Super Official Class is releasing, so it's the first chance Wizards has had in five years to actually learn from their mistakes in 5e. I'm eager to see how that shakes down (and also dreading what they're going to do to my poor class...)
I don't think it is 100% accurate to call them "experimental features" that they will be testing out on the Artificer. Considering the official version has already been sent to the publisher and the book with the artificer in it is being released next week, these are hardly "experimental features" any longer. If anything they are testing out some of the Artificer's official features on the other classes.
Other than the hex/lack of curses what other issues are there for the warlock?, between subclass, pact AND invocations, I actually love the versatility and customization that the warlocks have.
The low number of slots is an issue. Non-hexblades resort to spamming Eldritch blast becaue they run out of spells. Hexblades often use the same couple of spells every long rest and then mix up weapon and spell attacks. If they are to feel like a magical class, they need to have magic at their fingers more often. I would give them the following ability around 5th level: When you roll initiative you gain a 3rd level spell slot. If you do not use this slot by the time that combat ends, you lose it then. This would give them one extra 3rd level slot per combat, with their other 2 or 3 slots per SR available for higher level spells, out of combat spells or a second, third or fourth combat spell in an encounter.
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D&D since 79. New to the Carolinas and looking for Gamers.
WoTC, you do not make your game more fun & interesting by breaking down all the barriers that make class choices meaningful. You do it by enhancing what already makes classes unique. Make them better at their unique focus.
I'm getting really tired of saying "D&D isn't White Wolf", but maybe that's not actually true for their overall vision anymore. Maybe this is ******* White Wolf now.
This seems kinda hyperbolic to me. Having a little class crossover to make a more unique character isn't "breaking down all the barriers that make them unique". It's optional rules to introduce some variety. Honestly, if people want a feature from a particular class they're just going to mutliclass anyway. So the option has always been there to break down barriers a little. I think this is WoTC recognizing a growing desire to mix and match options to get a character that truly embodies the characters you envision. I personally find more customization option to make for a much more fun game.
I love these. Love these! I can't wait for them to be added to D&D Beyond.
My only concern is the Monk. I feel like an unarmed specced fighter just outclasses them in many ways at lower levels. That seems off to me. Although I guess any monks can dip into fighter for a massive boost to low level unarmed strikes....
Warlocks get a different type of magic. Their slots are maxed out and they get them back on short rest, which the designers of the game figured would happen significantly more often than long rests. They also get access to invocations which often allow them access to an 'abiding magical ability' that takes the form of an at-will spell, on top of having exclusive* access to the most powerful at-will spell attack in the game.
Warlocks aren't supposed to be apples-to-apples comparable to traditional spellcasters. They are their own thing, which uses the spellcasting rules because 5e was ruthless to the point of excess with their oversimplification. If you think of them as "just another arcane caster", they'll consistently underperform for you because you're expecting them to out-wizard the wizards. If you think of them as their own unique thing, with a spread of magical and innate abilities that lets them mix up their specialties in a way no other caster can, they start to pop more.
Heh, I know the common train of thought is that "anything you can do with warlock 5+, you can do better as warlock 4/something-else X", but I find that to be distinctly untrue. Invocations are awesome and allow warlocks to do shit few other characters can, and of the arcane casters only bards can match the warlock's ability to do stuff other than spellcasting.
Warlocks don't necessarily need more spell slots. They need players who understand that their warlock is a warlock, not a wizard with an edgy backstory.
Other than the hex/lack of curses what other issues are there for the warlock?, between subclass, pact AND invocations, I actually love the versatility and customization that the warlocks have.
The low number of slots is an issue. Non-hexblades resort to spamming Eldritch blast becaue they run out of spells. Hexblades often use the same couple of spells every long rest and then mix up weapon and spell attacks. If they are to feel like a magical class, they need to have magic at their fingers more often. I would give them the following ability around 5th level: When you roll initiative you gain a 3rd level spell slot. If you do not use this slot by the time that combat ends, you lose it then. This would give them one extra 3rd level slot per combat, with their other 2 or 3 slots per SR available for higher level spells, out of combat spells or a second, third or fourth combat spell in an encounter.
Warlocks get a different type of magic. Their slots are maxed out and they get them back on short rest, which the designers of the game figured would happen significantly more often than long rests. They also get access to invocations which often allow them access to an 'abiding magical ability' that takes the form of an at-will spell, on top of having exclusive* access to the most powerful at-will spell attack in the game.
Warlocks aren't supposed to be apples-to-apples comparable to traditional spellcasters. They are their own thing, which uses the spellcasting rules because 5e was ruthless to the point of excess with their oversimplification. If you think of them as "just another arcane caster", they'll consistently underperform for you because you're expecting them to out-wizard the wizards. If you think of them as their own unique thing, with a spread of magical and innate abilities that lets them mix up their specialties in a way no other caster can, they start to pop more.
Heh, I know the common train of thought is that "anything you can do with warlock 5+, you can do better as warlock 4/something-else X", but I find that to be distinctly untrue. Invocations are awesome and allow warlocks to do shit few other characters can, and of the arcane casters only bards can match the warlock's ability to do stuff other than spellcasting.
Warlocks don't necessarily need more spell slots. They need players who understand that their warlock is a warlock, not a wizard with an edgy backstory.
To reply to Jgsugden with Yurei's quote... Yes warlocks are categorized as full spellcasters, they *do* play more like sniping arcane archers with Eldritch blast being their 'rapid bow shots' and their spell slots are meant more for augmentation that direct damage. As a matter of fact, if you do use your limited spell slots for a single target damage spell, unless its something like power word kill, you're not using a warlock to it's true potential (not to say that you're playing a warlock wrong, but not meant for how it's supposed to be used for). You should primarily be using those limited spell slots for utility and battle field control (in or out of combat) OR AoE spells with a MINIMUM of 3 targets, if not more. Otherwise you should only be using eldritch blast (or you can choose to use another damaging cantrip). If you don't like that playstyle either try something unique and see if it works or a warlock is just not for you.
(and with their massive customization with their separate pact boon options alone; offering a weapon option, scout option or better-than-wizard level utility on rituals they're pretty solid support classes too)
BUUUUUUT, that being said, yes, I think 2 spell slots per short rest can be extremely limited and especially when you just don't know when that next short rest will come you feel like they're potions in an RPG. They just sit there and that can be frustrating. I know they did the math and all, but even 3 spell slots in the beginning will feel less stressful.
Regarding your issue with the limited spells known. I agree with that too but looking at the Sorcerer who *is* a legitimate *full* caster who has just as many spells, its not a unique issue (especially when taking the above into consideration where a warlock shouldn't be loosing [leveled] spells every turn, but a Sorcerer is more likely too... the spells known is a bigger issue for the sorcerer (which many people do have issues with any way).
I would really like to see the expanded Sorceror Spell List add Call Lightning. Especially because of the Storm Sorceror. It seems odd to require a deep five-level dip into Druid or Tempest Cleric for it... and having a different ability cast requirement.
Regarding the Cantrip Versatility stepping on the Artificer's toes, the Artificer at 10th level can switch cantrips on a long rest (or short, I forget), whereas other prepared casters have to level up to switch. So, the Artificer still has that edge. Although, I might suggest watering down the Spell Versatility so that the known casters don't make out too much with it. For one, I wouldn't let them switch cantrips except at level up.
Call lightning would be quite powerful with quicken spell. A sorcerer could deal 8d10 damage by quickening call lightning, then calling it as an action. More if a blue or bronze draconic bloodline. Call lightning is not on the sorcerer spell list for a reason.
And right cantrip for the job was terrible for the level it was. It should have been included in the "spellcasting" section of the artificer, at 1st level.
Can't really quicken Call Lightning. The spell is only cast once; after that, so long as the spell is in effect you gain a special action you can use with it. Much like Dragon's Breath, you can't quicken the action, only the original spell casting.
Call Lightning for Storm Sorcerers is an example of why sorcerers need - need need need - the sort of Always-Known list they gave Aberrant Minds. Storm sorcerers should have a list of storm spells they get that only they, amongst sorcerers, can use. Aberrants have Psionic Sorcery for the same. Draconics could get spells centered on imposing fear or the extra power/mobility of their lineage without infringing on their specific choice of heritage. Wild sorcs could get a grab bag of nonsense. So on and so forth.
Balancing spellcasters is hard , I usually stop at considering bonuses/features without trying to wrap my head around how the quality or variety of spell selection impacts balance. Scythian's point about Call Lightning feels good (at least for Storm Sorcerers) from a mechanical standpoint, if the class is built around Lightning damage they should be able to have a robust selection of Lightning spells... but then again, perhaps its intentional that some weather effecting spells like Call Lightning are reserved to Druids?
I picture a world where every spell is available to every caster, in the same way that every weapon is available to every class (although some wield certain weapons with more or less proficiency or efficiency, depending on class features)... and I think it would be pretty ok from a balance perspective? There's probably some spells out there that are overtuned compared to other spells at their level because the designers thought that they would be restricted to certain classes, but overall I think that it wouldn't have much of a mechanical downside to play. But would it erode the class identity of certain casters if School of Enchantment Wizards started throwing around Bless, Eldritch Knights started riding around Find Steed mounts, Hexblade Warlocks got access to Flame Blade just because it "fits their theme"? Yeah, probably...
Classes are more than just the damage dice they roll and the bonuses they add. I do think that the writers should spend more time looking at class spell lists to make sure that casters will be able to find attractive spells within their list to fit their archetype without multiclassing. But maybe that's best accomplished by writing more spells, not by making more spells available to multiple classes.
You quicken call lightning to cast it as a bonus action instead of an action, creating a lightning bolt to come down (as it does on the turn it was cast, automatically), then you use your action to summon another lightning bolt from it on the same turn.
Which works on the first turn it's cast. After that, you get one bolt a turn. Now admittedly, doubling your first-turn bolt is potentially worth a Quicken, especially if you're upcasting the spell, but it's also not something they can do often, and Call Lightning has an environmental requirement that limits its use beyond simple spell slots/sorcery points.
I feel like a Storm sorcerer could be allowed to have Call Lightning without breaking the game, especially given that they are...y'know...storm sorcerers.
It is very powerful. Sorcerers, by design, do not get these durational effect spells until very high levels. I am not against storm sorcerers having it, but it should not be accessible to the regular sorcerer, and they are not going to update the sorcerer subclasses any time soon.
But by spell storing item they probably mean the non spell slot expending one, so you can have extra lower level spells. Maybe not 2*INT, but just INT could work. (a version of the artificer supposedly leaked, for the 1st four levels.)
This isn't an artificer thread, so I'll try not to comment further on people's unrealistic and unreasonable expectations for the class.
But I will say that it will be interesting to see which of these experimental features they may or may not be testing out in the artificer. Heh, this is the first time since the books went live that a new Super Official Class is releasing, so it's the first chance Wizards has had in five years to actually learn from their mistakes in 5e. I'm eager to see how that shakes down (and also dreading what they're going to do to my poor class...)
Please do not contact or message me.
The class feature I am talking about is literally called "Spell-Storing Item" that the Artificer currently gets at level 18. What I am talking about is moving "The Right Cantrip for the Job" class feature from level 10 down to level 1 and moving "Spell-Storing Item" from level 18 down to level 10 and then have something else at level 18.
I don't think it is 100% accurate to call them "experimental features" that they will be testing out on the Artificer. Considering the official version has already been sent to the publisher and the book with the artificer in it is being released next week, these are hardly "experimental features" any longer. If anything they are testing out some of the Artificer's official features on the other classes.
The low number of slots is an issue. Non-hexblades resort to spamming Eldritch blast becaue they run out of spells. Hexblades often use the same couple of spells every long rest and then mix up weapon and spell attacks. If they are to feel like a magical class, they need to have magic at their fingers more often. I would give them the following ability around 5th level: When you roll initiative you gain a 3rd level spell slot. If you do not use this slot by the time that combat ends, you lose it then. This would give them one extra 3rd level slot per combat, with their other 2 or 3 slots per SR available for higher level spells, out of combat spells or a second, third or fourth combat spell in an encounter.
D&D since 79. New to the Carolinas and looking for Gamers.
This seems kinda hyperbolic to me. Having a little class crossover to make a more unique character isn't "breaking down all the barriers that make them unique". It's optional rules to introduce some variety. Honestly, if people want a feature from a particular class they're just going to mutliclass anyway. So the option has always been there to break down barriers a little. I think this is WoTC recognizing a growing desire to mix and match options to get a character that truly embodies the characters you envision. I personally find more customization option to make for a much more fun game.
I love these. Love these! I can't wait for them to be added to D&D Beyond.
My only concern is the Monk. I feel like an unarmed specced fighter just outclasses them in many ways at lower levels. That seems off to me. Although I guess any monks can dip into fighter for a massive boost to low level unarmed strikes....
Warlocks get a different type of magic. Their slots are maxed out and they get them back on short rest, which the designers of the game figured would happen significantly more often than long rests. They also get access to invocations which often allow them access to an 'abiding magical ability' that takes the form of an at-will spell, on top of having exclusive* access to the most powerful at-will spell attack in the game.
Warlocks aren't supposed to be apples-to-apples comparable to traditional spellcasters. They are their own thing, which uses the spellcasting rules because 5e was ruthless to the point of excess with their oversimplification. If you think of them as "just another arcane caster", they'll consistently underperform for you because you're expecting them to out-wizard the wizards. If you think of them as their own unique thing, with a spread of magical and innate abilities that lets them mix up their specialties in a way no other caster can, they start to pop more.
Heh, I know the common train of thought is that "anything you can do with warlock 5+, you can do better as warlock 4/something-else X", but I find that to be distinctly untrue. Invocations are awesome and allow warlocks to do shit few other characters can, and of the arcane casters only bards can match the warlock's ability to do stuff other than spellcasting.
Warlocks don't necessarily need more spell slots. They need players who understand that their warlock is a warlock, not a wizard with an edgy backstory.
Please do not contact or message me.
To reply to Jgsugden with Yurei's quote... Yes warlocks are categorized as full spellcasters, they *do* play more like sniping arcane archers with Eldritch blast being their 'rapid bow shots' and their spell slots are meant more for augmentation that direct damage. As a matter of fact, if you do use your limited spell slots for a single target damage spell, unless its something like power word kill, you're not using a warlock to it's true potential (not to say that you're playing a warlock wrong, but not meant for how it's supposed to be used for). You should primarily be using those limited spell slots for utility and battle field control (in or out of combat) OR AoE spells with a MINIMUM of 3 targets, if not more. Otherwise you should only be using eldritch blast (or you can choose to use another damaging cantrip). If you don't like that playstyle either try something unique and see if it works or a warlock is just not for you.
(and with their massive customization with their separate pact boon options alone; offering a weapon option, scout option or better-than-wizard level utility on rituals they're pretty solid support classes too)
BUUUUUUT, that being said, yes, I think 2 spell slots per short rest can be extremely limited and especially when you just don't know when that next short rest will come you feel like they're potions in an RPG. They just sit there and that can be frustrating. I know they did the math and all, but even 3 spell slots in the beginning will feel less stressful.
Regarding your issue with the limited spells known. I agree with that too but looking at the Sorcerer who *is* a legitimate *full* caster who has just as many spells, its not a unique issue (especially when taking the above into consideration where a warlock shouldn't be loosing [leveled] spells every turn, but a Sorcerer is more likely too... the spells known is a bigger issue for the sorcerer (which many people do have issues with any way).
I would really like to see the expanded Sorceror Spell List add Call Lightning. Especially because of the Storm Sorceror. It seems odd to require a deep five-level dip into Druid or Tempest Cleric for it... and having a different ability cast requirement.
nvm, experimental elixir is not that
Regarding the Cantrip Versatility stepping on the Artificer's toes, the Artificer at 10th level can switch cantrips on a long rest (or short, I forget), whereas other prepared casters have to level up to switch. So, the Artificer still has that edge. Although, I might suggest watering down the Spell Versatility so that the known casters don't make out too much with it. For one, I wouldn't let them switch cantrips except at level up.
Call lightning would be quite powerful with quicken spell. A sorcerer could deal 8d10 damage by quickening call lightning, then calling it as an action. More if a blue or bronze draconic bloodline. Call lightning is not on the sorcerer spell list for a reason.
And right cantrip for the job was terrible for the level it was. It should have been included in the "spellcasting" section of the artificer, at 1st level.
Can't really quicken Call Lightning. The spell is only cast once; after that, so long as the spell is in effect you gain a special action you can use with it. Much like Dragon's Breath, you can't quicken the action, only the original spell casting.
Call Lightning for Storm Sorcerers is an example of why sorcerers need - need need need - the sort of Always-Known list they gave Aberrant Minds. Storm sorcerers should have a list of storm spells they get that only they, amongst sorcerers, can use. Aberrants have Psionic Sorcery for the same. Draconics could get spells centered on imposing fear or the extra power/mobility of their lineage without infringing on their specific choice of heritage. Wild sorcs could get a grab bag of nonsense. So on and so forth.
Please do not contact or message me.
Balancing spellcasters is hard , I usually stop at considering bonuses/features without trying to wrap my head around how the quality or variety of spell selection impacts balance. Scythian's point about Call Lightning feels good (at least for Storm Sorcerers) from a mechanical standpoint, if the class is built around Lightning damage they should be able to have a robust selection of Lightning spells... but then again, perhaps its intentional that some weather effecting spells like Call Lightning are reserved to Druids?
I picture a world where every spell is available to every caster, in the same way that every weapon is available to every class (although some wield certain weapons with more or less proficiency or efficiency, depending on class features)... and I think it would be pretty ok from a balance perspective? There's probably some spells out there that are overtuned compared to other spells at their level because the designers thought that they would be restricted to certain classes, but overall I think that it wouldn't have much of a mechanical downside to play. But would it erode the class identity of certain casters if School of Enchantment Wizards started throwing around Bless, Eldritch Knights started riding around Find Steed mounts, Hexblade Warlocks got access to Flame Blade just because it "fits their theme"? Yeah, probably...
Classes are more than just the damage dice they roll and the bonuses they add. I do think that the writers should spend more time looking at class spell lists to make sure that casters will be able to find attractive spells within their list to fit their archetype without multiclassing. But maybe that's best accomplished by writing more spells, not by making more spells available to multiple classes.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You quicken call lightning to cast it as a bonus action instead of an action, creating a lightning bolt to come down (as it does on the turn it was cast, automatically), then you use your action to summon another lightning bolt from it on the same turn.
RAW, you can only cast 1 leveled spell per turn. If you cast a spell using a bonus action you can only cast a cantrip with your action (or vice versa)
Which works on the first turn it's cast. After that, you get one bolt a turn. Now admittedly, doubling your first-turn bolt is potentially worth a Quicken, especially if you're upcasting the spell, but it's also not something they can do often, and Call Lightning has an environmental requirement that limits its use beyond simple spell slots/sorcery points.
I feel like a Storm sorcerer could be allowed to have Call Lightning without breaking the game, especially given that they are...y'know...storm sorcerers.
Please do not contact or message me.
It is very powerful. Sorcerers, by design, do not get these durational effect spells until very high levels. I am not against storm sorcerers having it, but it should not be accessible to the regular sorcerer, and they are not going to update the sorcerer subclasses any time soon.
If were angling for Storm Sorcs to have Call Lightning, I'd like to put in my vote for my Tempest Cleric to have Lightning Bolt on its spell list.