3.5 had a very good artificer build. It was literally doing its job. So one has to wonder why not just pick it and update it to 5e ? I fear all the changes you are doing are mainly against creation of items and you are not the only one doing this or creating its own over the top version of the artificer.
To me an artificer is a support class. The infuse magic is awesome an ability as is in ua. But aside from that i hate the servant. I hate the thunder canon and i hate the way each archetype is trying to make an artificer capable of damage and combat. In 3.5 the artificer was support and it was unable to deal real damage and that was fine. So bearing this in mind...
The archetypes would, to me, be a crafting type. Much like the wizard schools. They would be... Forger (weapon and armor), Scribe (scrolls), wonders (wondrous items), Jeweler (rings and neclaces) and so on... Basically the class would be a profession class much like its counter part in 3.5. Each archetype would reduce cost much like the schools in wizards. Each would give the use of tools and a portable kit so they can create stuff on the go.
Now the core class feature would include the infusion magic much like it has right now. And it would also include a deassemble skill which allow him to undo magic items and gains some component to do other magic items. In 3.5 that skill gave xp pool. In this edition it would be a gold pool. He would gain more gold then others but that is fine and it gives a better idea the finding a buyer even though it would be better money wise but time consuming. Next feature is you guessed it the ability to create rarer magic items and even more reducing the time taken to do it.
Archetypes would make the items better in the hands of the artificer. It would also make those items a breeze to create.
So basically... Artificer is a profession class and a support through the use of economy and creation of what other people need.
He would only be half caster and use the wizard spell list. Thats how i would do it.
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Also, I think that tinker's tools would be more appropriate than thieves' tools.
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Devious serpent folk devoid of compassion, yuan-ti manipulate other creatures by arousing their doubts, evoking their fears, and elevating and crushing their hopes. From remote temples in jungles, swamps, and deserts, the yuan-ti plot to supplant and dominate all other races and to make themselves gods.
3.5 had a very good artificer build. It was literally doing its job. So one has to wonder why not just pick it and update it to 5e ? I fear all the changes you are doing are mainly against creation of items and you are not the only one doing this or creating its own over the top version of the artificer.
To me an artificer is a support class. The infuse magic is awesome an ability as is in ua. But aside from that i hate the servant. I hate the thunder canon and i hate the way each archetype is trying to make an artificer capable of damage and combat. In 3.5 the artificer was support and it was unable to deal real damage and that was fine. So bearing this in mind...
The archetypes would, to me, be a crafting type. Much like the wizard schools. They would be... Forger (weapon and armor), Scribe (scrolls), wonders (wondrous items), Jeweler (rings and neclaces) and so on... Basically the class would be a profession class much like its counter part in 3.5. Each archetype would reduce cost much like the schools in wizards. Each would give the use of tools and a portable kit so they can create stuff on the go.
Now the core class feature would include the infusion magic much like it has right now. And it would also include a deassemble skill which allow him to undo magic items and gains some component to do other magic items. In 3.5 that skill gave xp pool. In this edition it would be a gold pool. He would gain more gold then others but that is fine and it gives a better idea the finding a buyer even though it would be better money wise but time consuming. Next feature is you guessed it the ability to create rarer magic items and even more reducing the time taken to do it.
Archetypes would make the items better in the hands of the artificer. It would also make those items a breeze to create.
So basically... Artificer is a profession class and a support through the use of economy and creation of what other people need.
He would only be half caster and use the wizard spell list. Thats how i would do it.
I think you missed a bit of what I wrote; I'm actually in full agreement of the Artificer as a support class, but he does need to have some fighting capability. I don't hate the gunsmith on a whole, and I don't hate the servant; I just hate them together. My main goal for this was to design a system that changed how magic items are created in such a way that it makes the artificer special. I'd strongly disagree with the statement that my changes are "against creation of items," and in fact work to enhance that. Whether they succeed or not is subjective, but I definitely wouldn't say the concept of drawing from arcane springs works against magic item creation.
Now, if other subclasses were specifically oriented for less damage than the gunsmith and more for creation, that'd be great. But I still think the gunsmith is a valuable option to have. Some of your thoughts for subclasses should be available. There are a couple I'm also working on that tend to lean more toward a straight support character.
" And it would also include a deassemble skill which allow him to undo magic items and gains some component to do other magic items."
This is exactly my idea behind the Defuse Magic ability. Except instead of gold, I decided on a draw system of arcane energy.
My entire goal was to make the artificer more relevant to crafting. Much of your response makes me think you saw the changes I specifically made to the subclasses, but none of the additions to the class itself.
That said, I love the idea for jeweler and scribes.
Also, I think that tinker's tools would be more appropriate than thieves' tools.
Definitely. I could see thieves' tools working for the artificer, but based on story more than actual class content. The Tinkers' Tools are definitely a better choice.
you also get me wrong. im not talking about your build specific. im talking in generals.
also... this why 5e is boring as hell in classes... because people only see them as dps. check fighters as an exemple hes nothing more then dps. people dont care about abilities of the battle master. they only see the dps. same with druid wildshape. same with rogue assassins. i could name them all like this. the goal of 5e is to make everyone the same and that is boring, i understand people like to bash things. but this is not all d&d is all about. this why i love the warlock and the favored soul sorcerer. they are not bashers. sure you could be a one button smasher with eldritch blast. but everyone finds it boring because one button mashing. sorcerer sure he can be pretty smashy with spells... but hes also very supportative much more then a basher.
all in all... i hate the modding community for just wanting bashers who rivals fighter barb or others. this game is not solved only by dps. if that was the case i would not be playing it. and up to this point i think most people just use the same archetype all the times because dps. so for your argument... you shouldn't expect people to give you a good review if your class is not optimised for dps first. because that how most people see 5e. be what you want cause they all can solo stuff.
the biggest downfall of 5e is that it is way too oriented toward spells because thats the only support you'll ever get.
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Ah, sorry, my bad. Didn't find it with my 'Find" for some reason. Gonna delete the prior post.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Important to note, though, it takes downtime days to do those things. Though besides a couple level ups and trading there doesn't seem to be much else to do with them.
People ignore the DMG crafting info because what they want is strict moneytisation of the items. so they can literally know, like in 3e, what is the cost of things. but what i do like is that they give off ranges because not everybody would sell the items at the same price. there is a price guide that came out, called sane's item list. but it is everything but sane. because to the gy a decanter of endless water is literally game breaking, but its really not. same way to him sovereign glue is common and not legendary. he also doesn't put a price on cursed items, which he should because evil people may want those items and would pay tons for it. so basically the list is just whacky because the guy who did it is basing it off his own twisted logic.
but yeah, the rules of crafting are pretty clear on what you can do and what you can't. the only draw back, again is time... scribing a scroll literally takes 4 days for a basic cantrip or first level spell and making potions of healing is like 4 days. the best way i found to make this better is to make it hours not days.and you could bump the 25 gold increment to 50 gold increment too.
i also have yet to find a good way to make enchantments... from what spells says, to make something permanent it is just needed to cast the spell repeatedly until the enchantment stick to it. but since spell slots comes back every 8 hours its hard to make it happen. so i'm thinking no need for spell slots, just use the energies. as in attunement like stuff to enchant things. but me thinks rolls are pretty much needed reguardless. otherwise everyone could do this shit.
just reread and another thing jumped at me, the cost of creation is much more then what you could sell the items. so basically creating such items wouldn'T lend you anything so this makes magic item creation undoable. i'd use the lowest of the price range instead of the highest like the guide does.
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Honestly, I've been considering how to both tweak the Gunsmith and make a Runecrafting kind of Artficer archetype. The Runecrafting thing was simply because I think that one way of making a proper support Artificer would be to make charms or temporary items that buff the party's weapons and armor. And I personally think that they didn't balance anything out properly for the Gunsmith. The upgrades to the Thunder Cannon are too linear and leave no room for variation.
My own approach to the Gunsmith would have replaced the Thunder Monger ability at 3rd level with an ability that gives the Gunsmith the ability to imbue a round of ammunition with some extra elemental properties. Fire, Cold, Electricity, maybe Thunder or Force. Have it start as giving an extra 1d6 but have it cap out at 5d6. Give up some damage for a variety of damage types. Maybe fit in Extra Attack in at 5th level in exchange for one of the damage upgrades to help it along to the 5d6 cap. Blast Wave could have been bumped to 6d6 or have an additional 10 feet of knockback. And Explosive Round should be bumped up to at least the level of a 3rd level Fireball, instead of half a fireball. Or alternatively, have the round deal necrotic damage and pull enemies in its radius towards it about 10 feed. Play around with the properties a little. Piercing Round was about the only thing I'd leave unchanged on the Thunder Cannon upgrades.
A Runecrafter would likely start by gaining the ability to give elemental runes out to grant a weapon 1d6 of that energy damage for a minute. Later levels would include resistance runes for armor, perhaps runes that last a day or so with the property of spell storing or something. Some out of combat runes might grant advantage on certain checks but burn out after use. Simple things that are really quality of adventuring life adjustments. And the idea of an Artificer tinkering around with runic language can tie the class into a number of settings more easily than the Gunsmith can.
Now as for the Alchemist build, I really didn't like that the recipe list was so limited. You were guaranteed all of them, so any real variety came from when you got what recipe. I'd think to add in some more recipes like an invisibility draught, but obviously have some of these only available at later levels. Wouldn't do to have a party easily become invisible at 1st level.
that line of thought i like a lot. drops DPS for much needed utility. as long as thunder monger is like sneak attack and can only be used once per round. then i am fine with giving it extra attack. though at that point i'd go more like war cleric and give it a certain number of extra attacks per say intellect modifier and as a bonus action.
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I like the idea of a thir artificer subclass as golem maker, you can create all these constructs once every long rest that have at max 3/4your stats for a humanoid (when you are level 3). But you can build bigger and stronger ones later and add enchantments to them. You can also choose the material. Wood golem for one that can self heal, but lower damage, Stone for a slower tankier golem, metal for mid ground, or flesh to make it smarter (capable of acting without instructions)
I was really hoping to see an over-haul of GS in Xanathar's, but no luck, I guess.
The problem I have with artificer is that your rational options are very limited. In my campaign, we have a gunsmith who chose giant eagle as her construct and she has never been in danger since. And there is no reason for her to ever do anything but fly way out of range of everything else on the field and shoot every turn.
People keep saying that it is a versatile class, but I am just not seeing it. There are a few ways this could be fixed; nerf the thundercannon as it renders every other ability obsolete (she just got scattershot, but she's never going to use it, for instance ... why would you?). Bring artificer up to a half-caster could offset this. Also having some kind of restriction on the beast type/abilities might help (permanent free flight is OP, for instance).
It just plays like a rogue that never has to put themselves in danger. It is boring and she is getting bored with it (and her complaints about feeling limited are starting to grate on the table's nerves, but that is another problem).
Artificer is a half caster, what people do not understand is that Infusion are like literally spell slots ! unless you have a low intelligence artificer, he has as much if not more spell slots then a half caster. my biggest problem isn't even the spell slots and the way it works... my biggest problem is the spell list itself which is far too small for someone who specifically try to understand magic.
as for the dangers... sorry but that warlock has literally the same advantages with eldritch blast being the only real button you can press, and with short rest spell slots, he can literally get out of trouble infinitely. so i don't get your point. you know wildshape druids can also do it pretty easily too. Because one class feature is OP the class sucks ? so you mean to tell me the warlock sucks, the druid sucks, probably the fighter too, because at level 20 with 4 attacks a turn + surges gaining 8 attacks a turn, 9 if you dual wield, makes the class sucks, because OP right. oh and infinite charm effect for the mages at end game is OP too right.
think about it, is your artificer friend more then 6 levels, if she is, she has overshot her class by a lot. there is literally no point in gaining more levels then 6 in the artificer class. and by the way, the wizard can literally do whatever she is doing already, he does it by 5th level, not 6.
as for rogues never being in danger... you do realise that by rules, rogues can simply break line of sight and then hide again. and then the creature needs a perception check to see it. so really a rogue fighting in a doorway can just sneak the *** out of any monsters. also sneak can be done far away. if you don't believe me on how abusive a rogue can get, check critical roll... literally VAX the rogue is always the last to fall. seriously, if your character is in danger... thats because they want to.
no the artificer has lots more problem then his pet and his thunder canon. these two are like the least of its problem.
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I guess I think a class ought to be worth pursuing past LVL 6 ...
You can play a very boring warlock; I've seen that build in action! I choose not to. And I can! But I'm not sure you have many more viable options for artificer.
Your point about wizard is probably true, except that flight is far from free and nor is it free to deal that kind of damage (and I'd be surprised if you could do both at LVL 5). But with wizard you can do so much more than that if you want, and still be effective.
I like to think that you can play a rogue a number of ways (for instance, I've never played a rogue that hides) that are all effective. Same point for druids.
I just don't see this applying to the artificer; it has some OP shit, without any other viable paths. That's it's problem: it has abilities that render it's other abilities obsolete. That's in violation of rule 1 of game design.
You say he has free flying, but there is never a free flying, in reality that fly beast is actually losing much. because that beast is literally another character that can attack. if he's not using it to attack, then he's losing a bunch in attacking. so basically he's losing 2 attacks for the sake of flying and safety. so i do not believe it is free flying. while the wizard only lose a spell slot and concentration. I played an artificer and my robot was like DOTY on CR. it was a cave bear stats made looking like a human. sorry but multiattack is awesome and the damage is real.
i do agree that some abilities renders others useless. but its the same with pretty much all other archetypes and classes. look at fighter, nobody wants anything else then battlemaster, nobody wants anything else then warlock eldritch blast build. its just that strong. druids are always moon druids because unkillable. theree will always be a class or an ability that mathematically, its the strongest and people just dont want to play characters that sucks for sake of playing it.
as for wizards not doing it at level 5. you do realise both flight and fireballs are level 5 and that you get 2 spells per level. meaning you cna just pick both. not to mention cantrips actually boost at level too. sure that artificer at level 5 using gunsmith can do 4d6 damage. but thats it and it loses its bonus action as well. while the wizard actually have some defenses that are reactions and others as bonus actions. something that artificer loses just to reload his gun. even a rogue at level 5 does more then that damage and still has that bonus action to do anything else. so i understand the point of artificer doing much damage in one shot, but its all or nothing like any cantrips and it has a tagged sneak attack on it. but thats losing an entire turn doing so. hence why it requires the robot for help. because that robot is what gives him the bonus action. now again, using the mount for flying away. he's not attacking because if he was. you'd realise how weak that beast is. he'd lose it often to attack of opportunity. Remember, that giant eagle do not have dive by attacks, it does provok AoO when it moves away from others. so in a field of flying creatures like harpies, he's gonna fall when they kill that bird. and he'll have to lose 1000gp and 1 week worth of job to rebuild it. because thats the other problem... he gains revivify at level 13 or something.
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So in my new campaign my fiance is trying out the alchemist artificer. Right away we are realizing that the "hit or miss" aspect with both the vials of acid and fire just relying on the enemy's dexterity save, is becoming more and more frustrating. However at higher levels, being able to throw unlimited acid vials that do 10d6 damage sounds pretty OP, especially when your DC by that time is going to be 17+.
So I'm trying to develop a magical item that helps out with those lower level struggles that leaves the artificer sad and frustrated. The goal is to keep the feel of the artificer creating their own offense and being a tinkerer at heart. I'll paste what I have come up with so far below. I'd love some feedback or suggestions to improve it.
This mystical staff enables an Artificer to access magical spells that they normally wouldn’t be able to. Using a standard wizard staff, you magically imbue the staff with gems that grant charges of powerful spells.
Creating a new character at level 1, you start with the staff already imbued with the “Gem of Fairplay” which grants you access to “Chill Touch”, “Fire Bolt”, or “Ray of Frost”. You choose which 1 of the 3 spells you’d like to use. Upon gaining new levels in Artificer, you can switch to a different spell that the “Gem of Fairplay” provides if you wish. This particular gem gives you unlimited uses and isn’t limited by “Spell Slots” or “Charges”. All other spell details function as normal.*
After much study and research, you learn how to craft the “Gem of Advancement” (Level 5). Over a short rest, and spending 50g, you can imbue the new gem into your staff. This gem grants you access to either “Chromatic Orb”, “Witch Bolt”, or “Magic Missile”. Like previously, when you gain new levels in Artificer, you can swap out spells for others that the gem provides.
With more powerful spells, come limitations. The spells produced from this gem, and the gems that follow, use “Charges”. You have as many charges as you do levels in Artificer. These charges reset after a Long Rest.
The imbuing process for the gems of “Expertise”, “Wizardry”, and “Self Preservation” function the same as the “Gem of Advancement”, just with different level requirements and higher gold costs.
If your “Staff of Arcane Necessity” is lost or stolen you can make another one. The staff itself costs the standard cost of equipment, and the “Gem of Fairplay” costs 50g.
Notes*: Spells that scale depending on the level they are cast at work slightly differently. You can increase the level a spell is cast at by 1 using 2 additional charges. You cannot cast these spells past spell level 9, just like regular spellcasters. Spells that may be cast at higher levels are the following: Chromatic Orb, Witch Bolt, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Hold Person, Counterspell, Fireball and Lightning Bolt (All spells provided from the Gems of Advancement, Expertise and Wizardry).
It's hard for me to offer suggestions on how to improve an item that doesn't even address the supposed flaw that you are complaining about, and simply heaps power onto a character for no good reason. If I were your DM, I wouldn't even allow the staff (maybe in exchange for a WI slot), let alone the gems. None of them.
Things that I might consider are:
A per INT level feature that allows the artificer to force a save at disadvantage
An increase in range past 30 ft
A slight boost to damage at low levels.
The ability to invent different alchemical formulas (in line with the other options listed), and the ability to use them creatively.
Fact of the matter is that artificer were always a support class at heart. You know buffing others and stuff. We dont see that in here mainly because concentration on spells and infusions being klunky. The spell list also should have more damage buff to others. The list as is is way too limited.
The artificer is also a crafting class... I totally dont see it here at all. Sure he makes stuff for himself... But thats only once. Thats the problem with actual artificer... Hes not even an artificer to begin with.
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It's hard for me to offer suggestions on how to improve an item that doesn't even address the supposed flaw that you are complaining about, and simply heaps power onto a character for no good reason. If I were your DM, I wouldn't even allow the staff (maybe in exchange for a WI slot), let alone the gems. None of them.
Things that I might consider are:
A per INT level feature that allows the artificer to force a save at disadvantage
An increase in range past 30 ft
A slight boost to damage at low levels.
The ability to invent different alchemical formulas (in line with the other options listed), and the ability to use them creatively.
Well the idea with the staff is to open up some offence that doesn't just rely on the DC12 Dex save of the creatures you are fighting. The goal is to maintain the feel of creating your own magical items (enchanting the gems/imbuing their power into the staff), while allowing a few ranged attack cantrips that most the other spellcasters have use of.
I like some of the suggestions you made though. I'll look into those. Thanks
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3.5 had a very good artificer build. It was literally doing its job. So one has to wonder why not just pick it and update it to 5e ? I fear all the changes you are doing are mainly against creation of items and you are not the only one doing this or creating its own over the top version of the artificer.
To me an artificer is a support class. The infuse magic is awesome an ability as is in ua. But aside from that i hate the servant. I hate the thunder canon and i hate the way each archetype is trying to make an artificer capable of damage and combat. In 3.5 the artificer was support and it was unable to deal real damage and that was fine. So bearing this in mind...
The archetypes would, to me, be a crafting type. Much like the wizard schools. They would be... Forger (weapon and armor), Scribe (scrolls), wonders (wondrous items), Jeweler (rings and neclaces) and so on... Basically the class would be a profession class much like its counter part in 3.5. Each archetype would reduce cost much like the schools in wizards. Each would give the use of tools and a portable kit so they can create stuff on the go.
Now the core class feature would include the infusion magic much like it has right now. And it would also include a deassemble skill which allow him to undo magic items and gains some component to do other magic items. In 3.5 that skill gave xp pool. In this edition it would be a gold pool. He would gain more gold then others but that is fine and it gives a better idea the finding a buyer even though it would be better money wise but time consuming. Next feature is you guessed it the ability to create rarer magic items and even more reducing the time taken to do it.
Archetypes would make the items better in the hands of the artificer. It would also make those items a breeze to create.
So basically... Artificer is a profession class and a support through the use of economy and creation of what other people need.
He would only be half caster and use the wizard spell list. Thats how i would do it.
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Also, I think that tinker's tools would be more appropriate than thieves' tools.
Devious serpent folk devoid of compassion, yuan-ti manipulate other creatures by arousing their doubts, evoking their fears, and elevating and crushing their hopes. From remote temples in jungles, swamps, and deserts, the yuan-ti plot to supplant and dominate all other races and to make themselves gods.
-Dresden White
-Dresden White
you also get me wrong. im not talking about your build specific. im talking in generals.
also... this why 5e is boring as hell in classes... because people only see them as dps. check fighters as an exemple hes nothing more then dps. people dont care about abilities of the battle master. they only see the dps. same with druid wildshape. same with rogue assassins. i could name them all like this. the goal of 5e is to make everyone the same and that is boring, i understand people like to bash things. but this is not all d&d is all about. this why i love the warlock and the favored soul sorcerer. they are not bashers. sure you could be a one button smasher with eldritch blast. but everyone finds it boring because one button mashing. sorcerer sure he can be pretty smashy with spells... but hes also very supportative much more then a basher.
all in all... i hate the modding community for just wanting bashers who rivals fighter barb or others.
this game is not solved only by dps. if that was the case i would not be playing it. and up to this point i think most people just use the same archetype all the times because dps. so for your argument... you shouldn't expect people to give you a good review if your class is not optimised for dps first. because that how most people see 5e. be what you want cause they all can solo stuff.
the biggest downfall of 5e is that it is way too oriented toward spells because thats the only support you'll ever get.
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Ah, sorry, my bad. Didn't find it with my 'Find" for some reason. Gonna delete the prior post.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Important to note, though, it takes downtime days to do those things. Though besides a couple level ups and trading there doesn't seem to be much else to do with them.
People ignore the DMG crafting info because what they want is strict moneytisation of the items. so they can literally know, like in 3e, what is the cost of things. but what i do like is that they give off ranges because not everybody would sell the items at the same price. there is a price guide that came out, called sane's item list. but it is everything but sane. because to the gy a decanter of endless water is literally game breaking, but its really not. same way to him sovereign glue is common and not legendary. he also doesn't put a price on cursed items, which he should because evil people may want those items and would pay tons for it. so basically the list is just whacky because the guy who did it is basing it off his own twisted logic.
but yeah, the rules of crafting are pretty clear on what you can do and what you can't. the only draw back, again is time... scribing a scroll literally takes 4 days for a basic cantrip or first level spell and making potions of healing is like 4 days. the best way i found to make this better is to make it hours not days.and you could bump the 25 gold increment to 50 gold increment too.
i also have yet to find a good way to make enchantments... from what spells says, to make something permanent it is just needed to cast the spell repeatedly until the enchantment stick to it. but since spell slots comes back every 8 hours its hard to make it happen. so i'm thinking no need for spell slots, just use the energies. as in attunement like stuff to enchant things. but me thinks rolls are pretty much needed reguardless. otherwise everyone could do this shit.
just reread and another thing jumped at me, the cost of creation is much more then what you could sell the items. so basically creating such items wouldn'T lend you anything so this makes magic item creation undoable. i'd use the lowest of the price range instead of the highest like the guide does.
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Honestly, I've been considering how to both tweak the Gunsmith and make a Runecrafting kind of Artficer archetype. The Runecrafting thing was simply because I think that one way of making a proper support Artificer would be to make charms or temporary items that buff the party's weapons and armor. And I personally think that they didn't balance anything out properly for the Gunsmith. The upgrades to the Thunder Cannon are too linear and leave no room for variation.
My own approach to the Gunsmith would have replaced the Thunder Monger ability at 3rd level with an ability that gives the Gunsmith the ability to imbue a round of ammunition with some extra elemental properties. Fire, Cold, Electricity, maybe Thunder or Force. Have it start as giving an extra 1d6 but have it cap out at 5d6. Give up some damage for a variety of damage types. Maybe fit in Extra Attack in at 5th level in exchange for one of the damage upgrades to help it along to the 5d6 cap. Blast Wave could have been bumped to 6d6 or have an additional 10 feet of knockback. And Explosive Round should be bumped up to at least the level of a 3rd level Fireball, instead of half a fireball. Or alternatively, have the round deal necrotic damage and pull enemies in its radius towards it about 10 feed. Play around with the properties a little. Piercing Round was about the only thing I'd leave unchanged on the Thunder Cannon upgrades.
A Runecrafter would likely start by gaining the ability to give elemental runes out to grant a weapon 1d6 of that energy damage for a minute. Later levels would include resistance runes for armor, perhaps runes that last a day or so with the property of spell storing or something. Some out of combat runes might grant advantage on certain checks but burn out after use. Simple things that are really quality of adventuring life adjustments. And the idea of an Artificer tinkering around with runic language can tie the class into a number of settings more easily than the Gunsmith can.
Now as for the Alchemist build, I really didn't like that the recipe list was so limited. You were guaranteed all of them, so any real variety came from when you got what recipe. I'd think to add in some more recipes like an invisibility draught, but obviously have some of these only available at later levels. Wouldn't do to have a party easily become invisible at 1st level.
that line of thought i like a lot. drops DPS for much needed utility. as long as thunder monger is like sneak attack and can only be used once per round. then i am fine with giving it extra attack. though at that point i'd go more like war cleric and give it a certain number of extra attacks per say intellect modifier and as a bonus action.
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I like the idea of a thir artificer subclass as golem maker, you can create all these constructs once every long rest that have at max 3/4your stats for a humanoid (when you are level 3). But you can build bigger and stronger ones later and add enchantments to them. You can also choose the material. Wood golem for one that can self heal, but lower damage, Stone for a slower tankier golem, metal for mid ground, or flesh to make it smarter (capable of acting without instructions)
I was really hoping to see an over-haul of GS in Xanathar's, but no luck, I guess.
The problem I have with artificer is that your rational options are very limited. In my campaign, we have a gunsmith who chose giant eagle as her construct and she has never been in danger since. And there is no reason for her to ever do anything but fly way out of range of everything else on the field and shoot every turn.
People keep saying that it is a versatile class, but I am just not seeing it. There are a few ways this could be fixed; nerf the thundercannon as it renders every other ability obsolete (she just got scattershot, but she's never going to use it, for instance ... why would you?). Bring artificer up to a half-caster could offset this. Also having some kind of restriction on the beast type/abilities might help (permanent free flight is OP, for instance).
It just plays like a rogue that never has to put themselves in danger. It is boring and she is getting bored with it (and her complaints about feeling limited are starting to grate on the table's nerves, but that is another problem).
Artificer is a half caster, what people do not understand is that Infusion are like literally spell slots !
unless you have a low intelligence artificer, he has as much if not more spell slots then a half caster.
my biggest problem isn't even the spell slots and the way it works... my biggest problem is the spell list itself which is far too small for someone who specifically try to understand magic.
as for the dangers... sorry but that warlock has literally the same advantages with eldritch blast being the only real button you can press, and with short rest spell slots, he can literally get out of trouble infinitely. so i don't get your point. you know wildshape druids can also do it pretty easily too. Because one class feature is OP the class sucks ? so you mean to tell me the warlock sucks, the druid sucks, probably the fighter too, because at level 20 with 4 attacks a turn + surges gaining 8 attacks a turn, 9 if you dual wield, makes the class sucks, because OP right. oh and infinite charm effect for the mages at end game is OP too right.
think about it, is your artificer friend more then 6 levels, if she is, she has overshot her class by a lot. there is literally no point in gaining more levels then 6 in the artificer class.
and by the way, the wizard can literally do whatever she is doing already, he does it by 5th level, not 6.
as for rogues never being in danger...
you do realise that by rules, rogues can simply break line of sight and then hide again. and then the creature needs a perception check to see it. so really a rogue fighting in a doorway can just sneak the *** out of any monsters. also sneak can be done far away. if you don't believe me on how abusive a rogue can get, check critical roll... literally VAX the rogue is always the last to fall. seriously, if your character is in danger... thats because they want to.
no the artificer has lots more problem then his pet and his thunder canon.
these two are like the least of its problem.
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I guess I think a class ought to be worth pursuing past LVL 6 ...
You can play a very boring warlock; I've seen that build in action! I choose not to. And I can! But I'm not sure you have many more viable options for artificer.
Your point about wizard is probably true, except that flight is far from free and nor is it free to deal that kind of damage (and I'd be surprised if you could do both at LVL 5). But with wizard you can do so much more than that if you want, and still be effective.
I like to think that you can play a rogue a number of ways (for instance, I've never played a rogue that hides) that are all effective. Same point for druids.
I just don't see this applying to the artificer; it has some OP shit, without any other viable paths. That's it's problem: it has abilities that render it's other abilities obsolete. That's in violation of rule 1 of game design.
You say he has free flying, but there is never a free flying, in reality that fly beast is actually losing much. because that beast is literally another character that can attack. if he's not using it to attack, then he's losing a bunch in attacking. so basically he's losing 2 attacks for the sake of flying and safety. so i do not believe it is free flying. while the wizard only lose a spell slot and concentration. I played an artificer and my robot was like DOTY on CR. it was a cave bear stats made looking like a human. sorry but multiattack is awesome and the damage is real.
i do agree that some abilities renders others useless. but its the same with pretty much all other archetypes and classes. look at fighter, nobody wants anything else then battlemaster, nobody wants anything else then warlock eldritch blast build. its just that strong. druids are always moon druids because unkillable. theree will always be a class or an ability that mathematically, its the strongest and people just dont want to play characters that sucks for sake of playing it.
as for wizards not doing it at level 5. you do realise both flight and fireballs are level 5 and that you get 2 spells per level. meaning you cna just pick both. not to mention cantrips actually boost at level too. sure that artificer at level 5 using gunsmith can do 4d6 damage. but thats it and it loses its bonus action as well. while the wizard actually have some defenses that are reactions and others as bonus actions. something that artificer loses just to reload his gun. even a rogue at level 5 does more then that damage and still has that bonus action to do anything else. so i understand the point of artificer doing much damage in one shot, but its all or nothing like any cantrips and it has a tagged sneak attack on it. but thats losing an entire turn doing so. hence why it requires the robot for help. because that robot is what gives him the bonus action. now again, using the mount for flying away. he's not attacking because if he was. you'd realise how weak that beast is. he'd lose it often to attack of opportunity. Remember, that giant eagle do not have dive by attacks, it does provok AoO when it moves away from others. so in a field of flying creatures like harpies, he's gonna fall when they kill that bird. and he'll have to lose 1000gp and 1 week worth of job to rebuild it. because thats the other problem... he gains revivify at level 13 or something.
DM of two gaming groups.
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So in my new campaign my fiance is trying out the alchemist artificer. Right away we are realizing that the "hit or miss" aspect with both the vials of acid and fire just relying on the enemy's dexterity save, is becoming more and more frustrating. However at higher levels, being able to throw unlimited acid vials that do 10d6 damage sounds pretty OP, especially when your DC by that time is going to be 17+.
So I'm trying to develop a magical item that helps out with those lower level struggles that leaves the artificer sad and frustrated. The goal is to keep the feel of the artificer creating their own offense and being a tinkerer at heart. I'll paste what I have come up with so far below. I'd love some feedback or suggestions to improve it.
Improvement for Alchemical Artificer Class
Staff of Arcane Necessity (Artificer Only)
Damage: 1d8+Str | Weight: 11lbs | Rarity: Varies | Attunement: Yes | Damage Type: Bludg & Magical
Properties:
This mystical staff enables an Artificer to access magical spells that they normally wouldn’t be able to. Using a standard wizard staff, you magically imbue the staff with gems that grant charges of powerful spells.
Creating a new character at level 1, you start with the staff already imbued with the “Gem of Fairplay” which grants you access to “Chill Touch”, “Fire Bolt”, or “Ray of Frost”. You choose which 1 of the 3 spells you’d like to use. Upon gaining new levels in Artificer, you can switch to a different spell that the “Gem of Fairplay” provides if you wish. This particular gem gives you unlimited uses and isn’t limited by “Spell Slots” or “Charges”. All other spell details function as normal.*
After much study and research, you learn how to craft the “Gem of Advancement” (Level 5). Over a short rest, and spending 50g, you can imbue the new gem into your staff. This gem grants you access to either “Chromatic Orb”, “Witch Bolt”, or “Magic Missile”. Like previously, when you gain new levels in Artificer, you can swap out spells for others that the gem provides.
With more powerful spells, come limitations. The spells produced from this gem, and the gems that follow, use “Charges”. You have as many charges as you do levels in Artificer. These charges reset after a Long Rest.
The imbuing process for the gems of “Expertise”, “Wizardry”, and “Self Preservation” function the same as the “Gem of Advancement”, just with different level requirements and higher gold costs.
If your “Staff of Arcane Necessity” is lost or stolen you can make another one. The staff itself costs the standard cost of equipment, and the “Gem of Fairplay” costs 50g.
Notes*: Spells that scale depending on the level they are cast at work slightly differently. You can increase the level a spell is cast at by 1 using 2 additional charges. You cannot cast these spells past spell level 9, just like regular spellcasters. Spells that may be cast at higher levels are the following: Chromatic Orb, Witch Bolt, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Hold Person, Counterspell, Fireball and Lightning Bolt (All spells provided from the Gems of Advancement, Expertise and Wizardry).
Level/Charges
Gem Required
Cost of Gem
Spells Available
Charges Used
Bonus to Hit
1
Gem of Fairplay
-
Chill Touch, Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost
0
+0
2
-
-
-
-
+0
3
-
-
-
-
+0
4
-
-
-
-
+0
5
Gem of Advancement
50g
Chromatic Orb, Witch Bolt, Magic Missile
1
+0
6
-
-
-
-
+0
7
-
-
-
-
+1
8
-
-
-
-
+1
9
Gem of Expertise
100g
Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Hold Person
1
+1
10
-
-
-
-
+1
11
-
-
-
-
+1
12
-
-
-
-
+1
13
Gem of Wizardry
200g
Counterspell, Fireball, Lightning Bolt
1
+1
14
-
-
-
-
+1
15
-
-
-
-
+2
16
-
-
-
-
+2
17
Gem of Self Preservation
500g
Secret Chest, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
2
+2
18
-
-
-
-
+2
19
-
-
-
-
+2
20
-
-
-
-
+2
It's hard for me to offer suggestions on how to improve an item that doesn't even address the supposed flaw that you are complaining about, and simply heaps power onto a character for no good reason. If I were your DM, I wouldn't even allow the staff (maybe in exchange for a WI slot), let alone the gems. None of them.
Things that I might consider are:
A per INT level feature that allows the artificer to force a save at disadvantage
An increase in range past 30 ft
A slight boost to damage at low levels.
The ability to invent different alchemical formulas (in line with the other options listed), and the ability to use them creatively.
Fact of the matter is that artificer were always a support class at heart. You know buffing others and stuff. We dont see that in here mainly because concentration on spells and infusions being klunky. The spell list also should have more damage buff to others. The list as is is way too limited.
The artificer is also a crafting class... I totally dont see it here at all. Sure he makes stuff for himself... But thats only once. Thats the problem with actual artificer... Hes not even an artificer to begin with.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)