I posted this over in Homebrew and thought I'd share and see what the Fighters think.
The thuggish fighter with a criminal element is a pretty strong archetype. My group got together and brainstormed, "what if you had a Fighter that fought more like a Rogue?" and I wrote it up as a new subclass. I'm still tinkering with it and learning how to implement the abilities in D&D Beyond. This is my first time playing with the subclass creator.
A little on my thoughts going into this.This was largely balanced around the Arcane Archer (and since Gunner is a template you can load that made things easier) but giving you uses equal to your proficiency bonus. The increased shot uses are balanced somewhat by the armor and weapon restrictions. There's a little bit of the Samurai thrown in as well (quite the opposite really).
All the dirty tricks are melee abilities rather than ranged. Being limited to armor that doesn't disadvantage Stealth pushes you to be more of a DEX Fighter for defense, but your weapon attacks with Dirty Tricks must still use STR. The big difference from a Battle Master is that the Battle Master can have a much better AC and use more powerful weapons.There's also an opportunity cost for feats. While utilizing the tricks you can't take advantage of many great Fighter feats like Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, or Shield Master. It instead pushed you towards little used feats like Medium Armor Master or Tavern Brawler. Fighting styles like Great Weapon, Protector, or Two-Weapon are out but Deuling, Defense, and Unarmed work great.
The additional damage on Dirty Tricks is a little like a limited sneak attack, and aside from a few early levels, will never add more damage than a true Rogue's Sneak Attack, but does capture the feel of striking vital hits. I tried to make each choice unique and offering a range of saves & conditions. There are some restrictions that make the tricks great against humanoids but thst might not work with stranger monsters (has clothes, accepts surrender, etc.). That plays into the city-slicker out of their element in the wild. There are still tricks that can fit almost any occasion though.
In all of recorded human history, weapons have been the superior choice. This is even true with martial artists, who usually used their tricks until they could get hold of a weapon to use. Your Street Tough has some vaguely battle-masterish maneuvers, with fewer limits on the number of uses, and almost none of one of them really functions in a game with Hit Points.
Let's just leave aside your expertise in all of recorded human history and how it really doesn't apply to a fantasy setting with wizards and dragons (let alone mystical monks) and focus on the game rules you were trying to comment on. You say it doesn't really function in a game with Hit Points? Why would you attack the Battle Master so? I guess you missed the part where you **can** use a weapon. If you read a bit closer, you might notice that you don't lose out much on hit point damage, and gain some short-term conditions. Sure, conditions don't up the DPS... but if a monster is insensible for a round that's a big fat 0 in dps they do to you.
It reminds me a lot of the Pugilist class someone brought up once. It suffers from the same problem that Rangers have, only worse, since the terrain favored by Rangers actually comes up in a lot of adventures. Street Toughs are of limited utility in the bad sections of a large city, and nearly useless anywhere else. I don't know of a single published adventure set in that kind of setting.
Did... did you even check the link or just fire off a response just based off the name? Do you just want the name changed? Not sure what you're comparing here with the Rangers, but I can help you on published adventures with urban portions:
Ghost of Saltmarsh - Saltmarsh is the name of a fishing village that you spend a lot of the adventure in. There are also a lot of pirates you interact with. Dirty fighting with pirates?
Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus - Baldur's Gate is one of the largest towns on the Sword Coast and you spend the first two chapters of the adventure there.
Waterdeep: Dragonheist - Waterdeep, City of Splendors, Crown of the North. Maybe you heard of it. This adventure is entirely within the urban environment.
Not that an urban environment is really necessary. It's just a few subclass abilities and a few might work better on humanoids, but many can work in any situation. There's only so much a subclass can actually change about the Fighter class... or do you think Fighters are restricted to urban environments?
Even the Thieves' Guild wouldn't bother with a Street Tough. The people who work for the Thieves' Guild are professional criminals, and mugging people is for amateurs.
I still feel like you're hung up on the name and didn't read anything at all of the subclass. You also seem ignorant of protection rackets, loan sharking, and other criminal enterprises that hire a lot of big knee-breakers.
2/10 review. It was kind of amusing and I did ask for opinions, and not analysis or facts... so that's on me. Not really any good to me though since there was no real discussion of any mechanics.
As I noted, this is largely based off of the Arcane Archer which upon a hit from a Short Bow or Long Bow adds 2d6 of a superior energy type and a condition that lasts until the end of your next turn. So the damage is perfectly in-line with a WotC created subclass for Fighter. If your issue is that it can be used too often, that is something that I've been considering. One of the biggest complaints about the Arcane Archer was that it couldn't use it's abilities often enough. Is proficency bonus times too much? That's the question. A ranged attack is going to be better than a one-handed melee weapon, so it may help mitigate the additional uses and those only come after 5th level.
As an alternative comparison, there's the Battle Master who learns 3 maneuvers (1 more) and can use them 4 times initially (2 more uses). When the Battle Master hits with an attack they can add 1d8 damage to the attack and apply an effect. Again, as I noted, the Dirty Tricks do more damage initially but the weapons they are restricted to can't be as big as the Battle Master. If they both use their largest melee weapon the damage is the same. A Battle Master with a Greatsword using a Maneuver rolls 2d6+1d8. A Street Tough with a Longsword using a Dirty Trick rolls 1d8+2d6. The damage is the same.
As for effects. You've got Arcane Archer:
Banishing Arrow - Ranged weapon attack hit + Banished (as the spell)
Grasping Arrow - Ranged weapon attack hit + Restrained + 2d6 poison and 2d6 automatic slashing damage if it moves
Shadow Arrow - Ranged weapon attack hit + can't see further than 5 feet. +2d6 psychic
plus other crazy effects like Force AOE or a line attack
Or the Battle Master:
Disarming Attack - Ranged or Melee weapon attack hit + Disarms a weapon, +1d8
Grappling Strike - Melee weapon attack hit + Grappled as a bonus action, +1d8
Menacing Attack - Ranged or Melee weapon attack hit + Frightened, +1d8
Pushing Attack - Ranged or Melee weapon attack hit + Push the target 15 feet (Shove is only 5 feet), +1d8
Trip Attack - Ranged or Melee weapon attack hit + Knock them Prone, +1d8
etc...
So your assessment that it isn't reasonable in D&D fails on two WotC published subclasses, one of which appears in the Player's Handbook.
Human Shield is a variation of the Goblin Boss ability to Redirect Attack. Clearly you're not a dirty fighter, because there are plenty of creatures who would do that. And that's kind of the point. Whether or not someone would choose to do that is a player choice, not a mechanic.
I Surrender, Sucker. Read the condition. Charmed doesn't say anything about magic. What it does do is give you a simple and easy way to refer to mechanics. It's much more concise to say Charmed than to say "An affected creature can’t Attack the source of the effect or target the source of the effect with harmful abilities or magical Effects. The source of the effect has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the target creature." It's all contingent on the DM playing along that the target would be willing to accept a surrender anyways, it just gives some mechanics to the hybrid Combat/Social encounter.
Menacing Shot should probably change because it's basically identical to the Battle Master Maneuver. That's the real criticism there. One of my players wanted it included, so there it is.
Sucker Punch is no more powerful than a Flurry of Blows from a monk, and is weaker because you can only use it when you miss rather than whenever you want. Both cost a resource.
You might notice where this is Homebrew and therefore by its definition this would include new mechanics. The premise that my players and I were working with is adding something that felt like old AD&D called shots in 5e mechanics. So I guess you identified the intent... although basic reading comprehension would get you there since I mentioned my goals initially.
The addition of 2d6 damage for a 3rd level Fighter twice a short rest is what a 3rd level Rogue would add on every Sneak Attack, all the time. The Battle Master can add 1d8 which adds about 3 less on average but can be used twice as often initially. As I pointed out above with the weapons, a Battle Master with their largest weapon and a Street Tough with theirs do the exact same damage.
Groin Shot is basically the 1st level spell Hideous Laughter restricted to melee and only 1 round. Tap on the Head is like an attack with Drow Poison and may be a bit over-tuned, but it was a very specific request from a player that I tried to make conform to the rules. Sleep is a 1st level area effect spell that knocks a whole bunch of people Unconscious, so that state isn't unheard of at 1st level and this version gets a save. You might exclaim, "but those are spells!" Yes, but if you can broaden your thinking just a little... it's a limited ability that isn't available any more often than a Dirty Trick and has a longer range, area, etc. and doesn't require you have Advantage, that you successfully hit before you can use it, that they get a save, and they have to fail the save by 5 or more. The balance point is to make sure it's an ability that another character of that level wouldn't have access to. 1st level characters have access to those conditions, so it clearly satisfies that condition.
Do you only play Champion Fighter? Because there are PLENTY of WotC subclasses that are well in-line with what I've added. You kind of offered some criticism. Although, to be honest, most of what you said was just what the effect does or went on to say that it doesn't fit in D&D when it's virtually identical to something that exists in D&D.
So you think a Battle Master with a Greatsword does too much damage on a Trip Attack and that knocking an enemy prone while also dealing damage is too much? You get all that off one attack roll with a STR save. Because that's exactly the level of criticism you're offering.
You are cherry picking the abilities of other classes, races, and items instead of coming up with any original mechanics.
LOL. So now it's just cherry picking things that DO belong in D&D and not things that should never be in D&D? Make up your mind.
You can have effects that aren't magical that do similar things. You're tripping on a Trip Attack without the Grease spell? But that's a spell! Is it really too hard to believe people could be blinded by a poke in the eye or incapacitated by a blow to the back of the head? That happens for real. No magic involved.
What do you even mean by called shots? That's ridiculous. That's like saying a Stunning Strike is a called shot. If anything, saying things like "you can't blind creatures without eyes," makes the tricks less powerful since you introduce restrictions. Also, wrap your head around homebrew. You add new rules. Let me repeat that.You add NEW RULES. Is it unoriginal use of something that is already in D&D or is it something entirely new and alien to D&D? Try and be a little more consistent.
Balancing off maximum damage output is exactly one of the things that WotC uses to balance characters and monsters in combat. Can the Street Tough do more damage than a Battle Master? No, it's the same in 1 round and less per encounter. At 3rd level the Battle Master can do Maneuvers 4x (+4d8) while the Street Tough can only do their Dirty Tricks 2x (+4d6), averaging 4 points less damage. The Battle Master must be too powerful.
Does the Battle Master need another hit roll for their Superiority die of d8/d10/d12? No, they don't. You're playing one right?
I think I've wasted enough time on your idiosyncratic views. OK, you don't like it and you didn't do the math. Message received. Moving on.
I posted this over in Homebrew and thought I'd share and see what the Fighters think.
The thuggish fighter with a criminal element is a pretty strong archetype. My group got together and brainstormed, "what if you had a Fighter that fought more like a Rogue?" and I wrote it up as a new subclass. I'm still tinkering with it and learning how to implement the abilities in D&D Beyond. This is my first time playing with the subclass creator.
The Street Tough
A little on my thoughts going into this.This was largely balanced around the Arcane Archer (and since Gunner is a template you can load that made things easier) but giving you uses equal to your proficiency bonus. The increased shot uses are balanced somewhat by the armor and weapon restrictions. There's a little bit of the Samurai thrown in as well (quite the opposite really).
All the dirty tricks are melee abilities rather than ranged. Being limited to armor that doesn't disadvantage Stealth pushes you to be more of a DEX Fighter for defense, but your weapon attacks with Dirty Tricks must still use STR. The big difference from a Battle Master is that the Battle Master can have a much better AC and use more powerful weapons.There's also an opportunity cost for feats. While utilizing the tricks you can't take advantage of many great Fighter feats like Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, or Shield Master. It instead pushed you towards little used feats like Medium Armor Master or Tavern Brawler. Fighting styles like Great Weapon, Protector, or Two-Weapon are out but Deuling, Defense, and Unarmed work great.
The additional damage on Dirty Tricks is a little like a limited sneak attack, and aside from a few early levels, will never add more damage than a true Rogue's Sneak Attack, but does capture the feel of striking vital hits. I tried to make each choice unique and offering a range of saves & conditions. There are some restrictions that make the tricks great against humanoids but thst might not work with stranger monsters (has clothes, accepts surrender, etc.). That plays into the city-slicker out of their element in the wild. There are still tricks that can fit almost any occasion though.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Let's just leave aside your expertise in all of recorded human history and how it really doesn't apply to a fantasy setting with wizards and dragons (let alone mystical monks) and focus on the game rules you were trying to comment on. You say it doesn't really function in a game with Hit Points? Why would you attack the Battle Master so? I guess you missed the part where you **can** use a weapon. If you read a bit closer, you might notice that you don't lose out much on hit point damage, and gain some short-term conditions. Sure, conditions don't up the DPS... but if a monster is insensible for a round that's a big fat 0 in dps they do to you.
Did... did you even check the link or just fire off a response just based off the name? Do you just want the name changed? Not sure what you're comparing here with the Rangers, but I can help you on published adventures with urban portions:
Not that an urban environment is really necessary. It's just a few subclass abilities and a few might work better on humanoids, but many can work in any situation. There's only so much a subclass can actually change about the Fighter class... or do you think Fighters are restricted to urban environments?
I still feel like you're hung up on the name and didn't read anything at all of the subclass. You also seem ignorant of protection rackets, loan sharking, and other criminal enterprises that hire a lot of big knee-breakers.
2/10 review. It was kind of amusing and I did ask for opinions, and not analysis or facts... so that's on me. Not really any good to me though since there was no real discussion of any mechanics.
As I noted, this is largely based off of the Arcane Archer which upon a hit from a Short Bow or Long Bow adds 2d6 of a superior energy type and a condition that lasts until the end of your next turn. So the damage is perfectly in-line with a WotC created subclass for Fighter. If your issue is that it can be used too often, that is something that I've been considering. One of the biggest complaints about the Arcane Archer was that it couldn't use it's abilities often enough. Is proficency bonus times too much? That's the question. A ranged attack is going to be better than a one-handed melee weapon, so it may help mitigate the additional uses and those only come after 5th level.
As an alternative comparison, there's the Battle Master who learns 3 maneuvers (1 more) and can use them 4 times initially (2 more uses). When the Battle Master hits with an attack they can add 1d8 damage to the attack and apply an effect. Again, as I noted, the Dirty Tricks do more damage initially but the weapons they are restricted to can't be as big as the Battle Master. If they both use their largest melee weapon the damage is the same. A Battle Master with a Greatsword using a Maneuver rolls 2d6+1d8. A Street Tough with a Longsword using a Dirty Trick rolls 1d8+2d6. The damage is the same.
As for effects. You've got Arcane Archer:
Or the Battle Master:
So your assessment that it isn't reasonable in D&D fails on two WotC published subclasses, one of which appears in the Player's Handbook.
Human Shield is a variation of the Goblin Boss ability to Redirect Attack. Clearly you're not a dirty fighter, because there are plenty of creatures who would do that. And that's kind of the point. Whether or not someone would choose to do that is a player choice, not a mechanic.
I Surrender, Sucker. Read the condition. Charmed doesn't say anything about magic. What it does do is give you a simple and easy way to refer to mechanics. It's much more concise to say Charmed than to say "An affected creature can’t Attack the source of the effect or target the source of the effect with harmful abilities or magical Effects. The source of the effect has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the target creature." It's all contingent on the DM playing along that the target would be willing to accept a surrender anyways, it just gives some mechanics to the hybrid Combat/Social encounter.
Menacing Shot should probably change because it's basically identical to the Battle Master Maneuver. That's the real criticism there. One of my players wanted it included, so there it is.
Sucker Punch is no more powerful than a Flurry of Blows from a monk, and is weaker because you can only use it when you miss rather than whenever you want. Both cost a resource.
You might notice where this is Homebrew and therefore by its definition this would include new mechanics. The premise that my players and I were working with is adding something that felt like old AD&D called shots in 5e mechanics. So I guess you identified the intent... although basic reading comprehension would get you there since I mentioned my goals initially.
The addition of 2d6 damage for a 3rd level Fighter twice a short rest is what a 3rd level Rogue would add on every Sneak Attack, all the time. The Battle Master can add 1d8 which adds about 3 less on average but can be used twice as often initially. As I pointed out above with the weapons, a Battle Master with their largest weapon and a Street Tough with theirs do the exact same damage.
Groin Shot is basically the 1st level spell Hideous Laughter restricted to melee and only 1 round. Tap on the Head is like an attack with Drow Poison and may be a bit over-tuned, but it was a very specific request from a player that I tried to make conform to the rules. Sleep is a 1st level area effect spell that knocks a whole bunch of people Unconscious, so that state isn't unheard of at 1st level and this version gets a save. You might exclaim, "but those are spells!" Yes, but if you can broaden your thinking just a little... it's a limited ability that isn't available any more often than a Dirty Trick and has a longer range, area, etc. and doesn't require you have Advantage, that you successfully hit before you can use it, that they get a save, and they have to fail the save by 5 or more. The balance point is to make sure it's an ability that another character of that level wouldn't have access to. 1st level characters have access to those conditions, so it clearly satisfies that condition.
Do you only play Champion Fighter? Because there are PLENTY of WotC subclasses that are well in-line with what I've added. You kind of offered some criticism. Although, to be honest, most of what you said was just what the effect does or went on to say that it doesn't fit in D&D when it's virtually identical to something that exists in D&D.
So you think a Battle Master with a Greatsword does too much damage on a Trip Attack and that knocking an enemy prone while also dealing damage is too much? You get all that off one attack roll with a STR save. Because that's exactly the level of criticism you're offering.
LOL. So now it's just cherry picking things that DO belong in D&D and not things that should never be in D&D? Make up your mind.
You can have effects that aren't magical that do similar things. You're tripping on a Trip Attack without the Grease spell? But that's a spell! Is it really too hard to believe people could be blinded by a poke in the eye or incapacitated by a blow to the back of the head? That happens for real. No magic involved.
What do you even mean by called shots? That's ridiculous. That's like saying a Stunning Strike is a called shot. If anything, saying things like "you can't blind creatures without eyes," makes the tricks less powerful since you introduce restrictions. Also, wrap your head around homebrew. You add new rules. Let me repeat that.You add NEW RULES. Is it unoriginal use of something that is already in D&D or is it something entirely new and alien to D&D? Try and be a little more consistent.
Balancing off maximum damage output is exactly one of the things that WotC uses to balance characters and monsters in combat. Can the Street Tough do more damage than a Battle Master? No, it's the same in 1 round and less per encounter. At 3rd level the Battle Master can do Maneuvers 4x (+4d8) while the Street Tough can only do their Dirty Tricks 2x (+4d6), averaging 4 points less damage. The Battle Master must be too powerful.
Does the Battle Master need another hit roll for their Superiority die of d8/d10/d12? No, they don't. You're playing one right?
I think I've wasted enough time on your idiosyncratic views. OK, you don't like it and you didn't do the math. Message received. Moving on.