Hey! So I was looking over some subclasses earlier today when Echo Knight caught my eye. I believe I found something that just about breaks the game, but I thought I'd ask some veterans on here before I got my expectations up. So, in the campaign I'm playing in, we got a rather strong item. It's a scimitar-like weapon (don't remember the exact name, just remember it was a flavor texted scimitar) that did 1d6 slashing and 2d6 radiant damage. It also has a feature that the DM described as Multiattack. His exact wording was "When you hit a melee attack, you can then make 2 additional melee attacks". We still have to roll for hit and whatnot for each one, but it got me thinking. Fighters would be the best class for this weapon, since they get up to 4 attacks at level 20. That's when I stumbled upon Echo Knight.
The Echo, as far as I know, shares all of the stats and whatnot of its creator (aside from AC and Hitpoints). If this also translates to weapon abilities and character abilities, then an Echo Knight with this scimitar is completely broken. If I am understanding this right, then the Echo would also get the extra attacks that the PC does. I searched through forums and such, and couldn't find anything saying otherwise. If the Echo also uses the same weapon abilities then this would work out. Finally, I am a little iffy on the 18th feature of Echo Knight. It says you summon 2 Echoes and that they "coexist". Does this mean that if one Echo using Unleash Incarnation also triggers the other Echo? And would it still be at the cost of only 1 point?
Assuming that the Echo does get extra attack, it can use the multiattack feature of the weapon, and that you only spend 1 Unleash Incarnation to make both Echoes attack, an Echo Knight with this item could attack 72 times in one turn...and then repeat that their next turn. Here's how:
Fighter: Normally attacks 4 times, now attacks 12 times per Attack action Echo 1: Activates Unleash Incarnation, would get 4 attacks, now attacks 12 times Echo 2: Unleash Incarnation, another 12 attacks Action Surge Fighter: Attacks another 12 times Echo 1: Unleash Incarnation, attacks 12 times Echo 2: Unleash Incarnation, attacks 12 times
This would use a total of 2 Unleash Incarnation points, and 1 use of action surge. Meaning that there's enough left to do it again on your next turn. Of course, this is assuming the character makes it to level 20. The campaign I know for sure will make it there, but there's always the chance that they die, so who knows? I just wanted to ask for thoughts/opinions on the matter, and to know if I have this all straight. It seems just a bit outrageous, but it would be great to see the DM's reaction to this.
First of all, this weapon that your DM has created is insane and bad, but that’s not really what the thread is about.
You are radically misunderstanding the echo. It is not a creature and it cannot take actions.
Unleash Incarnation lets you make one additional attack from the echo’s position when you take the Attack action. When you have two echos, you have two choices as to where that extra attack originates, but you only get one extra attack. This means you can make five attacks with your Attack action. If you Action Surge, you can make ten attacks, assuming you have two uses of Unleash Incarnation.
Now that we understand how the class features actually work, we can come back to this absurd sword. The only comparable existing item is the Scimitar of Speed which is very rare and which allows a single attack as a bonus action. Your sword potentially triples your total attacks. I could see a legendary weapon that allows two additional attacks with a bonus action, but two additional attacks for each hit, at no additional action cost, is so outrageously broken that it’s sincerely shocking to me that any DM could have handed it out in a real game.
What Saga said. Also, not sure what your DM is thinking, but that sword is insane. Shocking. Basically, if anything is broken, it's the sword, not the subclass.
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Hey! So I was looking over some subclasses earlier today when Echo Knight caught my eye. I believe I found something that just about breaks the game, but I thought I'd ask some veterans on here before I got my expectations up. So, in the campaign I'm playing in, we got a rather strong item. It's a scimitar-like weapon (don't remember the exact name, just remember it was a flavor texted scimitar) that did 1d6 slashing and 2d6 radiant damage. It also has a feature that the DM described as Multiattack. His exact wording was "When you hit a melee attack, you can then make 2 additional melee attacks". We still have to roll for hit and whatnot for each one, but it got me thinking. Fighters would be the best class for this weapon, since they get up to 4 attacks at level 20. That's when I stumbled upon Echo Knight.
The Echo, as far as I know, shares all of the stats and whatnot of its creator (aside from AC and Hitpoints). If this also translates to weapon abilities and character abilities, then an Echo Knight with this scimitar is completely broken. If I am understanding this right, then the Echo would also get the extra attacks that the PC does. I searched through forums and such, and couldn't find anything saying otherwise. If the Echo also uses the same weapon abilities then this would work out. Finally, I am a little iffy on the 18th feature of Echo Knight. It says you summon 2 Echoes and that they "coexist". Does this mean that if one Echo using Unleash Incarnation also triggers the other Echo? And would it still be at the cost of only 1 point?
Assuming that the Echo does get extra attack, it can use the multiattack feature of the weapon, and that you only spend 1 Unleash Incarnation to make both Echoes attack, an Echo Knight with this item could attack 72 times in one turn...and then repeat that their next turn. Here's how:
Fighter: Normally attacks 4 times, now attacks 12 times per Attack action
Echo 1: Activates Unleash Incarnation, would get 4 attacks, now attacks 12 times
Echo 2: Unleash Incarnation, another 12 attacks
Action Surge
Fighter: Attacks another 12 times
Echo 1: Unleash Incarnation, attacks 12 times
Echo 2: Unleash Incarnation, attacks 12 times
This would use a total of 2 Unleash Incarnation points, and 1 use of action surge. Meaning that there's enough left to do it again on your next turn. Of course, this is assuming the character makes it to level 20. The campaign I know for sure will make it there, but there's always the chance that they die, so who knows? I just wanted to ask for thoughts/opinions on the matter, and to know if I have this all straight. It seems just a bit outrageous, but it would be great to see the DM's reaction to this.
First of all, this weapon that your DM has created is insane and bad, but that’s not really what the thread is about.
You are radically misunderstanding the echo. It is not a creature and it cannot take actions.
Unleash Incarnation lets you make one additional attack from the echo’s position when you take the Attack action. When you have two echos, you have two choices as to where that extra attack originates, but you only get one extra attack. This means you can make five attacks with your Attack action. If you Action Surge, you can make ten attacks, assuming you have two uses of Unleash Incarnation.
Now that we understand how the class features actually work, we can come back to this absurd sword. The only comparable existing item is the Scimitar of Speed which is very rare and which allows a single attack as a bonus action. Your sword potentially triples your total attacks. I could see a legendary weapon that allows two additional attacks with a bonus action, but two additional attacks for each hit, at no additional action cost, is so outrageously broken that it’s sincerely shocking to me that any DM could have handed it out in a real game.
What Saga said. Also, not sure what your DM is thinking, but that sword is insane. Shocking. Basically, if anything is broken, it's the sword, not the subclass.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Yeah, that sword is crazy.
Why do I feel like in a few weeks we're going to see a post on the DM forum about a homebrew magic item the DM wants to take back from the players?
Yeah, the subclass is balance (even if it is confusing as all hell) but that sword is broken.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms