I tried calculating the CR normally in the DMG, but it didn't really work. I was wondering if any one has any tips?
I assume that by "didn't really work" you mean that the encounter was significantly harder or easier than the CR you calculated had indicated? If so, that's because CRs are, well, not very accurate. I believe WotC uses a much more complex method than what they put in the DMG (too complex to put in the DMG, is the issue). However, even that is a bit of a moot point: while the CR formula takes party size into account, it doesn't (and can't) look at a lot of other, equally important parameters: party composition, equipment, player tactics and ingenuity, and the way you run the monsters. If your party gets in a fight with a werebear, whether they have silvered weapons for the non-casters makes a big difference. Intellect devourers are really scary when the party sees them coming, but that's nothing compared to when they ambush the party in the middle of the night when Slow Dave, the lovable but not very bright barbarian, is on watch and the only one awake. Dragons are always bad news, but if nobody in the party has a decent Dex save the news is much worse than if several PCs have stellar Dex saves and/or Evasion.
All of this long-winded exposition is just to more or less echo Kotath above: you should really try to develop a good feel for what makes an appropriate challenge for your party. CR can be a starting point, but you can't really rely on it. That said, remember you can adjust encounters on the fly if needed. If the party is coming off of an encounter that went pretty poorly for them and they didn't have time to rest up before the next one, it's perfectly ok (in fact, probably recommended) to tone down the next fight a bit for instace by reducing the number of monsters. And if fights turn out a lot easier than planned, you can certainly have some unplanned reinforcements show up - it's not very satisfying for the players if they go through half a dozen combats in one session but never feel challenged. Be flexible, don't rigidly stick to what you have planned because it seemed ok in theory.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm reluctant to say that the best way to calculate CR is experience. After you play through several encounters you will get a feel for what your party can deal with and what is really challenging for them.
Be cautious of creatures with added abilities that drain strength or disrupt magic. They can have a larger sway on a combat than anticipated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
To use the CR table in the DMG you need to follow a few steps, as an example we'll use the Young Black Dragon stat block.
1. First we need the base defensive CR, we get this by looking at which row the monsters (average) hp fits into on the table in the DMG. Our YBD has 127hp, so that puts it on 4 CR.
2. Now we need to check if it has any properties that theoretically increases this hp. For example if it had resistance to non-magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing we would increase its hp by 50% (As per step 9 in the create a monster stat block section. As it only has 1 immunity, to acid, we don't adjust the hp. Certain other traits shown in the monster features table in the same section of the DMG also adjust the 'effective hp'; such as Legendary Resistance, Relentless, Regeneration etc. Our YBD has none of these so we don't need to make any adjustments.
3. Next we calculate the monsters 'effective AC', to do this we take its current ac (18) and then increase it depending on if it has certain properties (These properties are listed in the Create a Monster stat block section). The YBD has a flying speed AND a ranged attack, which increases its effective ac by 2. The YBD also has 4 saving throw proficiencies, which increases its effective ac by 2 again. Again we check the monster features table to see that the YBD has no other features that change its effective ac. Putting it all together gives the YBD an effective ac of 22.
4. We go back to the table, on the CR 4 row. According to the table a CR 4 monster should have an ac of 14. The YBD's theoretical ac is 22, which is a lot higher. To work out its true defensive CR we need to take the difference between these 2 ac values, then divide by 2 (rounded down). This gives us 4, so we add this number to the CR value we got. This gives the YBD a defensive CR of 8.
5. Now we calculate the average damage, to do this we work out what the most damage the monster can do over 3 turns if it always hits and always does its average damage. For the first round we always do its strongest attack first, which in the YBD's case, is its acid breath. If an attack is capable of hitting more than 1 target, regardless of the range or area of effect, you always assume it hits 2 targets, therefore this attack does 49 x 2 or 98 damage. As the acid breath is a recharge ability, we assume it can't be used for the next 2 turns. Therefore for the next 2 turns, the dragon uses its multiattack, dealing 11 + 11 + 15 + 4 or 41 damage on turn 2 and turn 3. This gives a total damage over 3 rounds of 180, which we divide by 3 to get an average damage of 60. If a monster has certain abilities that deal damage to other creatures at the end of its turn, such as fire aura, you need to adjust the average damage based on this (As described in the monster features table)
6. We check the table to see what the CR of a monster with an average damage of 60 is, and we get a CR of 9.
7. Next we calculate the monster effective attack bonus. It's current attack bonus is +7. You only need to adjust this amount if the monster has a trait that allows it to gain advantage under certain conditions (Pack Tactics, Blood Frenzy etc), a full list of what features grant these changes are in the Monster Feature Table. Our YBD has none of these features so its effective attack bonus is still +7. Note: If your monster is more of a control type of monster who goes around inflicting status conditions instead of damage, you use the Save DC value instead of the attack bonus.
8. We check the table and see that a CR 9 creature should have an attack bonus of +7, therefore we don't need to change the offensive CR. The YBD has an offensive CR of 9.
9. Now we calculate the average CR, which we get by adding together the Defensive CR (8) and the offensive CR (9) and dividing by 2 then rounding down, giving us an overall of CR of 8.
10. Now you're either thinking one of two things by now. "That's a lot of effort just to see how tough a monster is", in which case you'd be right, it's even worse when calculating a spellcasters CR. The other thing you might be thinking is "Hang on, when I hover over Young Black Dragon it says its CR is 7", in which case you'd be right. This is because WOTC often choose to ignore their own method for determining CR and just give it a CR that 'feels right'. Many other monsters such as gnoll also have incorrect CR's.
11. Now for what I think is the better method. Before throwing your big bad homebrew monster (BBHM), wait a session or two to see how well your party performs in combat. This will allow you to get a good idea of what your party can deal with. If you're still not sure whether your monster is underpowered or overpowered, throw the monster at them anyway. If it seems underpowered during the fight, have a bunch of minions show up, if it seems overpowered consider having it retreat if wounded enough or allowing a friendly npc to provide support. And remember, you can always fudge the rolls if needed ;D
10. Now you're either thinking one of two things by now. "That's a lot of effort just to see how tough a monster is", in which case you'd be right, it's even worse when calculating a spellcasters CR. The other thing you might be thinking is "Hang on, when I hover over Young Black Dragon it says its CR is 7", in which case you'd be right. This is because WOTC often choose to ignore their own method for determining CR and just give it a CR that 'feels right'. Many other monsters such as gnoll also have incorrect CR's.
11. Now for what I think is the better method. Before throwing your big bad homebrew monster (BBHM), wait a session or two to see how well your party performs in combat. This will allow you to get a good idea of what your party can deal with. If you're still not sure whether your monster is underpowered or overpowered, throw the monster at them anyway. If it seems underpowered during the fight, have a bunch of minions show up, if it seems overpowered consider having it retreat if wounded enough or allowing a friendly npc to provide support. And remember, you can always fudge the rolls if needed ;D
Dragons tend to be way more powerful than their CR, since they should always be a challenging fight.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
The rules for spellcasters are similar, but more complicated because of the sheer number of options available. I think the general rules assume that if the spellcaster casts the spell “before combat begins” that those effects are active at the start of combat. AC mods from mage armor and resistances from Stoneskin are possible “active” spells that can affect CR. Offensively you should figure out their most damaging spell options and use those (factoring for and spell slots expended prior). If any buff spells or bonus action/reaction spells are possible, they may be taken into account if their effects mimic one of the monster abilities in the table that affect effective AC/HP/etc.
the other issue is the spell caster often has extremes in offensive and defensive capability (due to high damage potential and very low AC/HP, so the potential challenge may actually vary in combat due to timing, surprise, etc, significantly more so than with other creatures
I tried calculating the CR normally in the DMG, but it didn't really work. I was wondering if any one has any tips?
-Thanks!
Erean Cabenrith a Variant Human Cleric (Light Domain)
Eliem Lightblossom a High Elf Blood Hunter
Check out my Extended Signature Here
I assume that by "didn't really work" you mean that the encounter was significantly harder or easier than the CR you calculated had indicated? If so, that's because CRs are, well, not very accurate. I believe WotC uses a much more complex method than what they put in the DMG (too complex to put in the DMG, is the issue). However, even that is a bit of a moot point: while the CR formula takes party size into account, it doesn't (and can't) look at a lot of other, equally important parameters: party composition, equipment, player tactics and ingenuity, and the way you run the monsters. If your party gets in a fight with a werebear, whether they have silvered weapons for the non-casters makes a big difference. Intellect devourers are really scary when the party sees them coming, but that's nothing compared to when they ambush the party in the middle of the night when Slow Dave, the lovable but not very bright barbarian, is on watch and the only one awake. Dragons are always bad news, but if nobody in the party has a decent Dex save the news is much worse than if several PCs have stellar Dex saves and/or Evasion.
All of this long-winded exposition is just to more or less echo Kotath above: you should really try to develop a good feel for what makes an appropriate challenge for your party. CR can be a starting point, but you can't really rely on it. That said, remember you can adjust encounters on the fly if needed. If the party is coming off of an encounter that went pretty poorly for them and they didn't have time to rest up before the next one, it's perfectly ok (in fact, probably recommended) to tone down the next fight a bit for instace by reducing the number of monsters. And if fights turn out a lot easier than planned, you can certainly have some unplanned reinforcements show up - it's not very satisfying for the players if they go through half a dozen combats in one session but never feel challenged. Be flexible, don't rigidly stick to what you have planned because it seemed ok in theory.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I'm reluctant to say that the best way to calculate CR is experience. After you play through several encounters you will get a feel for what your party can deal with and what is really challenging for them.
Be cautious of creatures with added abilities that drain strength or disrupt magic. They can have a larger sway on a combat than anticipated.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
To use the CR table in the DMG you need to follow a few steps, as an example we'll use the Young Black Dragon stat block.
1. First we need the base defensive CR, we get this by looking at which row the monsters (average) hp fits into on the table in the DMG. Our YBD has 127hp, so that puts it on 4 CR.
2. Now we need to check if it has any properties that theoretically increases this hp. For example if it had resistance to non-magical bludgeoning, piercing and slashing we would increase its hp by 50% (As per step 9 in the create a monster stat block section. As it only has 1 immunity, to acid, we don't adjust the hp. Certain other traits shown in the monster features table in the same section of the DMG also adjust the 'effective hp'; such as Legendary Resistance, Relentless, Regeneration etc. Our YBD has none of these so we don't need to make any adjustments.
3. Next we calculate the monsters 'effective AC', to do this we take its current ac (18) and then increase it depending on if it has certain properties (These properties are listed in the Create a Monster stat block section). The YBD has a flying speed AND a ranged attack, which increases its effective ac by 2. The YBD also has 4 saving throw proficiencies, which increases its effective ac by 2 again. Again we check the monster features table to see that the YBD has no other features that change its effective ac. Putting it all together gives the YBD an effective ac of 22.
4. We go back to the table, on the CR 4 row. According to the table a CR 4 monster should have an ac of 14. The YBD's theoretical ac is 22, which is a lot higher. To work out its true defensive CR we need to take the difference between these 2 ac values, then divide by 2 (rounded down). This gives us 4, so we add this number to the CR value we got. This gives the YBD a defensive CR of 8.
5. Now we calculate the average damage, to do this we work out what the most damage the monster can do over 3 turns if it always hits and always does its average damage. For the first round we always do its strongest attack first, which in the YBD's case, is its acid breath. If an attack is capable of hitting more than 1 target, regardless of the range or area of effect, you always assume it hits 2 targets, therefore this attack does 49 x 2 or 98 damage. As the acid breath is a recharge ability, we assume it can't be used for the next 2 turns. Therefore for the next 2 turns, the dragon uses its multiattack, dealing 11 + 11 + 15 + 4 or 41 damage on turn 2 and turn 3. This gives a total damage over 3 rounds of 180, which we divide by 3 to get an average damage of 60. If a monster has certain abilities that deal damage to other creatures at the end of its turn, such as fire aura, you need to adjust the average damage based on this (As described in the monster features table)
6. We check the table to see what the CR of a monster with an average damage of 60 is, and we get a CR of 9.
7. Next we calculate the monster effective attack bonus. It's current attack bonus is +7. You only need to adjust this amount if the monster has a trait that allows it to gain advantage under certain conditions (Pack Tactics, Blood Frenzy etc), a full list of what features grant these changes are in the Monster Feature Table. Our YBD has none of these features so its effective attack bonus is still +7. Note: If your monster is more of a control type of monster who goes around inflicting status conditions instead of damage, you use the Save DC value instead of the attack bonus.
8. We check the table and see that a CR 9 creature should have an attack bonus of +7, therefore we don't need to change the offensive CR. The YBD has an offensive CR of 9.
9. Now we calculate the average CR, which we get by adding together the Defensive CR (8) and the offensive CR (9) and dividing by 2 then rounding down, giving us an overall of CR of 8.
10. Now you're either thinking one of two things by now. "That's a lot of effort just to see how tough a monster is", in which case you'd be right, it's even worse when calculating a spellcasters CR. The other thing you might be thinking is "Hang on, when I hover over Young Black Dragon it says its CR is 7", in which case you'd be right. This is because WOTC often choose to ignore their own method for determining CR and just give it a CR that 'feels right'. Many other monsters such as gnoll also have incorrect CR's.
11. Now for what I think is the better method. Before throwing your big bad homebrew monster (BBHM), wait a session or two to see how well your party performs in combat. This will allow you to get a good idea of what your party can deal with. If you're still not sure whether your monster is underpowered or overpowered, throw the monster at them anyway. If it seems underpowered during the fight, have a bunch of minions show up, if it seems overpowered consider having it retreat if wounded enough or allowing a friendly npc to provide support. And remember, you can always fudge the rolls if needed ;D
Dragons tend to be way more powerful than their CR, since they should always be a challenging fight.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
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Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
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If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Thank you! I was also wondering if anyone had some tips on how to calculate CR on spellcasters. Doug_Booshaka, thanks for the helpful example.
Erean Cabenrith a Variant Human Cleric (Light Domain)
Eliem Lightblossom a High Elf Blood Hunter
Check out my Extended Signature Here
The rules for spellcasters are similar, but more complicated because of the sheer number of options available. I think the general rules assume that if the spellcaster casts the spell “before combat begins” that those effects are active at the start of combat. AC mods from mage armor and resistances from Stoneskin are possible “active” spells that can affect CR. Offensively you should figure out their most damaging spell options and use those (factoring for and spell slots expended prior). If any buff spells or bonus action/reaction spells are possible, they may be taken into account if their effects mimic one of the monster abilities in the table that affect effective AC/HP/etc.
the other issue is the spell caster often has extremes in offensive and defensive capability (due to high damage potential and very low AC/HP, so the potential challenge may actually vary in combat due to timing, surprise, etc, significantly more so than with other creatures
Thank you iconarising!
Erean Cabenrith a Variant Human Cleric (Light Domain)
Eliem Lightblossom a High Elf Blood Hunter
Check out my Extended Signature Here