For background, oddly enough, I have never played a D&D campaign before but am not new to D&D. My first experience has actually been as a fledgling DM. My kids took an interest so I jumped into DM'ing so they could have fun and I could spend more time with them. Now I want to try it out for myself.
Anyways, just joined my first group and could use some build help as I have little practical experience of what works well and what doesn't. My party consists of the following:
Cleric (Peace), Fighter/Warlock gish, Order of Stars Druid, Monk (all level 3).
I am currently a lvl 3 Lore Bard (Str: 8/Dex: 16/Con: 14/Int: 8/Wis: 12/Cha: 17). Looking at the party make-up, it looks like we are covered from a frontline perspective, but could use a bit more ranged damage (again I'm new so could be completely wrong). Wondering what I should be considering as I think out my build that balances having fun without being too underpowered. I like the idea of playing a crowd controller but would like to have some bite if needed (strictly ranged, since frontline is covered). Vicious Mockery is nice but seeing the consistent 1 or 2 damage per turn I have been reading a ton and seems like there are some viable options (especially at level 4):
1) Stick to pure Lore Bard with level 4 ASI. Get full caster spell progression and take fireball at level 6 (with Counterspell), along with Animate Objects later. Feels a bit weak since Fireball feels a tad situational and only has so many slots that I don't want to waste if I'm using my concentration spells. Perhaps take a feat at level 4 (Fey Touched) to allow Misty Step for some emergency exit while the +1 Cha allows me to still gain some ASI progress.
2) Dip 1 level into Hexblade Warlock at level 4. I was considering doing this at my next level (to create a Lore 3/Hexblade 1 MC). . Figured this could give me some more durability, while providing me a consistent and scaling damage cantrip in Eldritch Blast and minimizing the spell progression loss. If I decided to take a 2nd level HB, do so after Bard level 6 (after Bard level 10?). Would also allow me to take Conjure Animals at level 7 (my level 6 Lore Magical Secrets) instead of Fireball for more crowd control purposes.
3) Stick to pure Lore Bard with Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper Feat at level 4. With MI, would pick up Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade for close calls (rather than using a Rapier), and Armor of Agathys or Hex (was thinking AofA so I could keep my concentration available for bard spells). Likewise, could just use Eldritch Blast with Spell Sniper to make the EB a near automatic hit vs. doing significant damage. Of course, here I would be keeping my Lore Bard spell progression, while missing out on the ASI. But am I OK waiting until level 8 to ASI to Cha: 19? I figure the EB will get a ton of low level usage so was not worth waiting.
In any case I could use the guidance, as I am completely torn on these options and which would work best based on the party we have assembled. Thanks in advance for your help!
A lot of the benefits of a Hexblade dip make you a better frontline fighter, which isn't relevant here, and sticking with Bard gets your main stat raised, which gives you more cutting words to play with, better social skills and a bump to your spell save DC, along with those juicy secrets a level sooner. Eldritch blast needs more investment in warlock levels before it's much better than a hand crossbow -certainly not worth delaying the ASI / secrets for. Armour proficiency is nice, I'll grant you.
For the ASI, I would definitely take one of the half-feats that will let you bump your CHA to 18. Fey Touched is a very good option (that's what I took for my Glamour Bard at 4th level), but other options to consider include Actor, Shadow Touched and Telepathic. Skilled is also a possibility, but Bards don't get as much benefit out of that as other classes considering they already have Jack of all trades.
I thought EB scales well after level 5 when you get more than one blast stream? I figured it would have utility long after I left my crossbow behind. And the added AC was a big draw without having to waste an ASI on Moderately Armored. My assumptions were based on a few things:
1) skipping over a valuable +2 Cha or +1 Cha/+1 Con at lvl 4 would be worse than being behind a level on spell progression (especially since other Bards don't get Magical Secrets until lvl 10 anyways)
2) In exchange, I would get +3/+4 AC on hexblade med armor & shield +a scaling cantrip (EB) so that I don't have to burn through leveled spells while I have concentration going, while still allowing me to keep my ability modifiers only slightly off pace. The alternative would be to take feats that would forgo the ASI entirely (or at least until level 12/14), which feels like a FAR worse outcome than a 1 level lag in spell progression.
But then again, I hardly know what I'm talking about here. Thanks again for the thoughts.
Actor is an incredible feat for Bards, Sorcerers, and Mask of Many Faces Warlocks. With Disguise Self and Actor, you can impersonate literally anyone, and with Expertise, your Deception will be incredible. Be the person you want to be, and the person you want to be is whoever has the most social power in that town/dungeon!
Thanks Flare, but my question was more related to combat prowess. I am definitely the face of the group and feel like my stats play well to that already, so would prefer to focus the next few levels on making my Bard more dynamic. Admittedly, I've NEVER played a Bard before, but I'm finding early on that the flexibility is almost TOO much. I am struggling to decide what to do without hamstringing myself somewhere else.
If I take a dip in Warlock, I'm behind on my spells. If I take cantrip spells with a feat, I've passed over an ASI (which feels to me MUCH worse than being behind a level on spell progression, because I won't have another chance to increase it for another 4 levels). if I take a middle ground like Fey Touched, then I get a cool Misty Step spell but am I really accomplishing anything at all? If I take Resilient Con, I help with my concentration but have the same Charisma issue for 4 more levels.
In short, I'm super confused here. Hoping to build a Bard that is the face/support role, but isn't a drag in battle. Putting enemies at disadvantage is cool and all, but feels like it might get really boring at early levels until I hit level 6, but then I still only get 3 slots for any damage dealing spells like fireball.
You can't be over/underpowered in D&D. Typically, the DM will react to the players' power levels because that is the only real feedback they get from the game (in terms of balancing.)
Feats are usually better than ASI. Mechanically ASI are better. However, feats represent a broadening of your ability set. This usually is more interesting and makes your character more personalised.
D&D isn't a game you "win". So, don't worry about optimal character builds. It's more important that you play a character that you feel ownership over and if you build them based on an orthodoxy of "what is best", then its a lot harder to do that.
Yes you are right that EB starts to look a lot better than a crossbow or VM at 5th level with it's double-shot, but have a look at some of the 3rd level Bard spells you'd get at 5th level instead, if you don't take the Warlock Dip (hello, Hypnotic Pattern!). If you're main concern is having a reliable way to pump out damage from range every turn, then EB is good -and you should probably consider at least 2 levels of Warlock so you can make it even better with agonising blast . But if you want to be a party face crowd controller with some bite when needed instead of a ranged damage monkey, then stick with Bard. The Bard spell list screams crowd control with bite when needed. And it allows you to bump CHA through the ASI sooner, which makes those spells better, and gives you more cutting words, and makes your party face skills better.
The only benefit to having an odd-number Stat is that it opens up the half-feat options. Taking something like Fey touched gets you the same mechanical boost to your stats as taking +1 CHA/+1CON, with extra spells too. (misty step is great for characters that want to stay at range, BTW).
To my mind in order to fit your stated aim of being a party face / crowd controller with a bit of bite at range, your priorities are:
1) get CHA to 18
2) get access to the 3rd level Bard spells
3) Get a way to boost or avoid concentration saves
Taking a warlock dip helps with the "bit of bite at range" requirement, but that can be satisfied by bard spells like shatter or heat metal (or if you take Fey Touched, look at Hex for your bonus spell). The AC boost definitely helps with priority 3, but at the expense of priorities 1&2
Basically what I'm saying is you don't need EB to deal the occasional bit of ranged damage, and the earlier CHA bump & spell progression is more valuable to you than the better armour a warlock dip will give you.
My 4th level glamour bard took fey touched (hex) for his ASI. He prances about at range in his studded leather and gets hit more often than I'd like, but I've never felt he doesn't contribute enough in battles -not necessarily in strict damage terms, but chucking out buffs and debuffs most turns, and then heat metal or hex & crossbow does him well enough when he needs to hurt (as well as debuff) someone. The thing I like most about him in combat is that he rarely does the same thing twice. -lots of fun to play and lots of tactical options to think about.
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For background, oddly enough, I have never played a D&D campaign before but am not new to D&D. My first experience has actually been as a fledgling DM. My kids took an interest so I jumped into DM'ing so they could have fun and I could spend more time with them. Now I want to try it out for myself.
Anyways, just joined my first group and could use some build help as I have little practical experience of what works well and what doesn't. My party consists of the following:
Cleric (Peace), Fighter/Warlock gish, Order of Stars Druid, Monk (all level 3).
I am currently a lvl 3 Lore Bard (Str: 8/Dex: 16/Con: 14/Int: 8/Wis: 12/Cha: 17). Looking at the party make-up, it looks like we are covered from a frontline perspective, but could use a bit more ranged damage (again I'm new so could be completely wrong). Wondering what I should be considering as I think out my build that balances having fun without being too underpowered. I like the idea of playing a crowd controller but would like to have some bite if needed (strictly ranged, since frontline is covered). Vicious Mockery is nice but seeing the consistent 1 or 2 damage per turn I have been reading a ton and seems like there are some viable options (especially at level 4):
1) Stick to pure Lore Bard with level 4 ASI. Get full caster spell progression and take fireball at level 6 (with Counterspell), along with Animate Objects later. Feels a bit weak since Fireball feels a tad situational and only has so many slots that I don't want to waste if I'm using my concentration spells. Perhaps take a feat at level 4 (Fey Touched) to allow Misty Step for some emergency exit while the +1 Cha allows me to still gain some ASI progress.
2) Dip 1 level into Hexblade Warlock at level 4. I was considering doing this at my next level (to create a Lore 3/Hexblade 1 MC). . Figured this could give me some more durability, while providing me a consistent and scaling damage cantrip in Eldritch Blast and minimizing the spell progression loss. If I decided to take a 2nd level HB, do so after Bard level 6 (after Bard level 10?). Would also allow me to take Conjure Animals at level 7 (my level 6 Lore Magical Secrets) instead of Fireball for more crowd control purposes.
3) Stick to pure Lore Bard with Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper Feat at level 4. With MI, would pick up Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade for close calls (rather than using a Rapier), and Armor of Agathys or Hex (was thinking AofA so I could keep my concentration available for bard spells). Likewise, could just use Eldritch Blast with Spell Sniper to make the EB a near automatic hit vs. doing significant damage. Of course, here I would be keeping my Lore Bard spell progression, while missing out on the ASI. But am I OK waiting until level 8 to ASI to Cha: 19? I figure the EB will get a ton of low level usage so was not worth waiting.
In any case I could use the guidance, as I am completely torn on these options and which would work best based on the party we have assembled. Thanks in advance for your help!
I'd go Option 1.
A lot of the benefits of a Hexblade dip make you a better frontline fighter, which isn't relevant here, and sticking with Bard gets your main stat raised, which gives you more cutting words to play with, better social skills and a bump to your spell save DC, along with those juicy secrets a level sooner. Eldritch blast needs more investment in warlock levels before it's much better than a hand crossbow -certainly not worth delaying the ASI / secrets for. Armour proficiency is nice, I'll grant you.
For the ASI, I would definitely take one of the half-feats that will let you bump your CHA to 18. Fey Touched is a very good option (that's what I took for my Glamour Bard at 4th level), but other options to consider include Actor, Shadow Touched and Telepathic. Skilled is also a possibility, but Bards don't get as much benefit out of that as other classes considering they already have Jack of all trades.
Enjoy!
Thanks Gary.
I thought EB scales well after level 5 when you get more than one blast stream? I figured it would have utility long after I left my crossbow behind. And the added AC was a big draw without having to waste an ASI on Moderately Armored. My assumptions were based on a few things:
1) skipping over a valuable +2 Cha or +1 Cha/+1 Con at lvl 4 would be worse than being behind a level on spell progression (especially since other Bards don't get Magical Secrets until lvl 10 anyways)
2) In exchange, I would get +3/+4 AC on hexblade med armor & shield +a scaling cantrip (EB) so that I don't have to burn through leveled spells while I have concentration going, while still allowing me to keep my ability modifiers only slightly off pace. The alternative would be to take feats that would forgo the ASI entirely (or at least until level 12/14), which feels like a FAR worse outcome than a 1 level lag in spell progression.
But then again, I hardly know what I'm talking about here. Thanks again for the thoughts.
Actor is an incredible feat for Bards, Sorcerers, and Mask of Many Faces Warlocks. With Disguise Self and Actor, you can impersonate literally anyone, and with Expertise, your Deception will be incredible. Be the person you want to be, and the person you want to be is whoever has the most social power in that town/dungeon!
Thanks Flare, but my question was more related to combat prowess. I am definitely the face of the group and feel like my stats play well to that already, so would prefer to focus the next few levels on making my Bard more dynamic. Admittedly, I've NEVER played a Bard before, but I'm finding early on that the flexibility is almost TOO much. I am struggling to decide what to do without hamstringing myself somewhere else.
If I take a dip in Warlock, I'm behind on my spells. If I take cantrip spells with a feat, I've passed over an ASI (which feels to me MUCH worse than being behind a level on spell progression, because I won't have another chance to increase it for another 4 levels). if I take a middle ground like Fey Touched, then I get a cool Misty Step spell but am I really accomplishing anything at all? If I take Resilient Con, I help with my concentration but have the same Charisma issue for 4 more levels.
In short, I'm super confused here. Hoping to build a Bard that is the face/support role, but isn't a drag in battle. Putting enemies at disadvantage is cool and all, but feels like it might get really boring at early levels until I hit level 6, but then I still only get 3 slots for any damage dealing spells like fireball.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
My general advice is this:
You can't be over/underpowered in D&D. Typically, the DM will react to the players' power levels because that is the only real feedback they get from the game (in terms of balancing.)
Feats are usually better than ASI. Mechanically ASI are better. However, feats represent a broadening of your ability set. This usually is more interesting and makes your character more personalised.
D&D isn't a game you "win". So, don't worry about optimal character builds. It's more important that you play a character that you feel ownership over and if you build them based on an orthodoxy of "what is best", then its a lot harder to do that.
Yes you are right that EB starts to look a lot better than a crossbow or VM at 5th level with it's double-shot, but have a look at some of the 3rd level Bard spells you'd get at 5th level instead, if you don't take the Warlock Dip (hello, Hypnotic Pattern!). If you're main concern is having a reliable way to pump out damage from range every turn, then EB is good -and you should probably consider at least 2 levels of Warlock so you can make it even better with agonising blast . But if you want to be a party face crowd controller with some bite when needed instead of a ranged damage monkey, then stick with Bard. The Bard spell list screams crowd control with bite when needed. And it allows you to bump CHA through the ASI sooner, which makes those spells better, and gives you more cutting words, and makes your party face skills better.
The only benefit to having an odd-number Stat is that it opens up the half-feat options. Taking something like Fey touched gets you the same mechanical boost to your stats as taking +1 CHA/+1CON, with extra spells too. (misty step is great for characters that want to stay at range, BTW).
To my mind in order to fit your stated aim of being a party face / crowd controller with a bit of bite at range, your priorities are:
1) get CHA to 18
2) get access to the 3rd level Bard spells
3) Get a way to boost or avoid concentration saves
Taking a warlock dip helps with the "bit of bite at range" requirement, but that can be satisfied by bard spells like shatter or heat metal (or if you take Fey Touched, look at Hex for your bonus spell). The AC boost definitely helps with priority 3, but at the expense of priorities 1&2
Basically what I'm saying is you don't need EB to deal the occasional bit of ranged damage, and the earlier CHA bump & spell progression is more valuable to you than the better armour a warlock dip will give you.
My 4th level glamour bard took fey touched (hex) for his ASI. He prances about at range in his studded leather and gets hit more often than I'd like, but I've never felt he doesn't contribute enough in battles -not necessarily in strict damage terms, but chucking out buffs and debuffs most turns, and then heat metal or hex & crossbow does him well enough when he needs to hurt (as well as debuff) someone. The thing I like most about him in combat is that he rarely does the same thing twice. -lots of fun to play and lots of tactical options to think about.